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Yellow Commissar
27-09-2010, 02:29
Excuse me if this has been discussed already. I tried the search function and couldn't find a thread where this question was addressed.

Seems to me that since the Hellcannon is a Monster and not a Warmachine, it would not use the Warmachine rule allowing it to pivot in the shooting phase. Played against them last night, and I just agreed to have my friend play them the way he had been playing them, which was they could pivot like a warmachine.

I don't have the Chaos Mortals army book, so I am only going on memory and the BRB. Question really is, what does it mean to fire like a stone thrower? Does it use the stone thrower rules and the war machine rules, or just the stone thrower ones?

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 02:35
When firing, the Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower, which means it follows the basic war machine rules for shooting including pivoting, range, etc.

Yrrdead
27-09-2010, 02:43
It would seem just the stone thrower ones.

If it follows "all" war machine and stone thrower rules ;
It may pivot as well as everything else in there.

If it only follows the stone thrower section ;
None of the war machine rules apply therefore it doesn't have the Move or Fire, Slow to Fire special rules.


Reading the applicable sections seems to indicate that the HellCannon is very much like a Cygor. It is a monster that in the shooting phase may "fire like a stonethrower".

Kampfpanzer
27-09-2010, 05:14
It would seem just the stone thrower ones.

If it follows "all" war machine and stone thrower rules ;
It may pivot as well as everything else in there.

If it only follows the stone thrower section ;
None of the war machine rules apply therefore it doesn't have the Move or Fire, Slow to Fire special rules.


Reading the applicable sections seems to indicate that the HellCannon is very much like a Cygor. It is a monster that in the shooting phase may "fire like a stonethrower".

Stone Throwers are warmachines. Rules that apply to war machines apply to all stone throwers. Being in the "stone thrower" section doesn't omit the entire war machine section from its rules.

Yrrdead
27-09-2010, 05:23
I'm not saying that stone throwers aren't war machines.

Merely that it seems (to me) that an argument could be made that Hell Cannons (being classified as monsters) only use the rules that govern how a Stone Thrower fires. Which can be found on page 114-115(LRB).

Which is my answer to the OP's question "what it means to fire as a stone thrower".

Kampfpanzer
27-09-2010, 05:37
But to fire as a stone thrower doesn't follow just the stone thrower rules, it follows the rules for stone throwers and war machines. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yrrdead
27-09-2010, 05:44
But to fire as a stone thrower doesn't follow just the stone thrower rules, it follows the rules for stone throwers and war machines. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Well suffice to say I disagree.

fire like a stone thrower != stone thrower.

To say that that "fires like a stone thrower" implies that you inherit all the rules for a warmachine (that have nothing to do with firing) seems like a bit of a stretch.

Djekar
27-09-2010, 05:47
This was a huge question when the WoC book first came out because it was argued ad nauseam that the Hellcannon [could/couldn't] either stand and shoot or move and fire because it [didn't/did] follow the war machine rules, only the stone thrower rules. The FAQ when it came out (as well as the 8th edition FAQs more recently) have stated that the Hellcannon can neither stand and shoot nor move and fire which leads me to believe that the Hellcannon must follow all applicable rules for a stone thrower that are not covered by it's other special rules: it does not use the chaos dwarfs for it's wound markers because it is a monster and handlers; it uses all the rules a stone thrower does when it fires because it fires as a stone thrower.

P.S. I actually agree with Yrrdead on what the rule in the book "says". But the FAQs make it clear that they intend the Hellcannon to follow all the rules a stone thrower follows while firing, including the restrictions from the generic war machine rules.

Kampfpanzer
27-09-2010, 05:49
You are referencing it using the wrong language though.

You are saying "fire like a stone thrower" as in "firing kind of like a stone thrower, all shooty and flingy and what-not".

But the language used infers "fire the same way a stone thrower would" or "fires as if it were a stone thrower" and the way a stone thrower would is by following the stone thrower rules.

Yrrdead
27-09-2010, 05:58
The Hell Cannon is a monster.
One of its rules is Doomfire which states "[...] fires as a stone thrower[...]".
FAQv1.1 Q&A tells us it may not move and fire and it may not stand and shoot.

These do not tell us that it follows all the rules on pg 108 and 109. Page 114 and 115 lay out explicit instructions on firing a stone thrower.


Thanks for the heads up btw on the FAQ.

Djekar
27-09-2010, 06:25
While you are correct that the FAQ rulings do not mandate that you must follow all the relevant stone thrower rules, I believe that they indicate that you should because the Hellcannon follows other non-stone thrower specific rules that apply to all war machines.

SiNNiX
27-09-2010, 06:50
We mustn't play the "but it doesn't say" game. Firing as a stone thrower means that it may pivot, just as a stone thrower may pivot when firing. That's the answer to the OP's question.

Chris_
27-09-2010, 07:11
I would never try and convince a WoC player that he has to give up 1 round of shooting just to pivot (move) his Hellcannon. It shoots as a stone thrower and automatically pivots on the spot as per the "Shooting with war machines"-rule on page 109.
If you don't let the person do this then it makes it as useless as a High Elf having to re-roll hits and not failed to-hit rolls.

Laton
27-09-2010, 19:22
guys, look at the WoC FAQ
Hellcannons can't move and shoot or stand and shoot because they "fire as a stone thrower".
There is no need to force all war machine rules on it, as it is just a monster with a warmachine-like ranged attack.
Hell, it can fire even when all three chaos dwarfs are dead, it can march and attack. No general warmachine-rules apply to the hellcannon.
Everything is explained in FAQs and it's special rules.

ChrisIronBrow
27-09-2010, 19:49
Hell, it can fire even when all three chaos dwarfs are dead, it can march and attack. No general warmachine-rules apply to the hellcannon.
Everything is explained in FAQs and it's special rules.

It's also important to note that without a base, or any semblance of arcs it wouldn't need to pivot anyway. The monster and Handlers rules are clear that it would indeed have 360 line of sight.

Last Edition
27-09-2010, 21:47
Excuse me, but when did it become possible to have two troop types on one model? A Stone Thrower is a War-Machine and follow the rules for War-Machines, and a Hellcannon is a Monster which follows the rules for monsters. Its that simple - Monsters can't pivot on the spot when firing their special weapons.

It actually very well written in the very first paragraph under the War Machine rules, where it states that the first section of rules cover the rules for Troop Type: War-Machine, and the second section covers the rules for firing the various War Machines. Pivoting is covered in the first section and the Hellcannon rules for firing in the second section.

Synnister
27-09-2010, 22:47
Excuse me, but when did it become possible to have two troop types on one model? A Stone Thrower is a War-Machine and follow the rules for War-Machines, and a Hellcannon is a Monster which follows the rules for monsters. Its that simple - Monsters can't pivot on the spot when firing their special weapons.


It became possible when there is a special rule in the AB that overrides the BRB. It's a monster that shoots like a stone thrower therefore it can pivot ... like a stone thrower.

Do people not even read the rules anymore?

Last Edition
27-09-2010, 22:56
It became possible when there is a special rule in the AB that overrides the BRB. It's a monster that shoots like a stone thrower therefore it can pivot ... like a stone thrower.

Do people not even read the rules anymore?

Read my second paragraph and then the War Machine rules in the BRB. Also, Troop types are not listed in the AB but in the back of the BRB - nothing to override.

Clearly, you have not read the rules yourself :rolleyes:

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 00:08
Holy moly. The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower. A stone thrower may pivot when firing. Done.

Yellow Commissar
28-09-2010, 00:09
Well, pretty much what I was afraid of; it's not very clear.

For me, I think the "before you fire the war machine" phrase speaks volumes. If the pivot happens before you fire, and the Hellcannon only fires like a stone thrower, then that rule wouldn't apply.

That said, I'm glad we played where he could pivot. It didn't really matter for that game, and I don't want to just apply the rules for effect without consideration for the spirit of the game.

Call it a what you will, but rules aside, why couldn't a hellcannon pivot before it shoots if a stone thrower can? Besides, I'd rather be agreeable than pushy.

I think the hellcannon is not allowed the pivot in the rules, but we will probably continue to allow to anyway as it seems to make sense.

Thanks for your replies. :)

Last Edition
28-09-2010, 05:21
Holy moly. The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower. A stone thrower may pivot when firing. Done.

Done? You haven't presented one argument as to why the Hellcannon is both a War Machine and a Monster Troop Type. Question: Do you follow all the rules for War Machines for the Hellcannon, or do you should willy nilly pick the best suited for it?

If I dare a quote from the BRB: "The first part of the rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type - essentially its chassis and crew - which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires."

Which part of the rules do you think "fires like a Stone Thrower" will go under?

Just as the Cygor/scraplauncher/Ku'gath/ etc, the Hellcannon can't pivot in the Shooting Phase..

theunwantedbeing
28-09-2010, 07:29
Stone throwers dont pivot....
You just place the template in line of sight(or fire indirectly).

War machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the Hellcannon isnt a war machine.

Nothing sugguests it would be allowed to pivot simply by firing as a stone thrower. Stone throwers aren't allowed to move and shoot, nor are they allowed to stand and shoot, hence the FAQ answer's.

Seems very clear cut to me.

Synnister
28-09-2010, 07:41
Done? You haven't presented one argument as to why the Hellcannon is both a War Machine and a Monster Troop Type. Question: Do you follow all the rules for War Machines for the Hellcannon, or do you should willy nilly pick the best suited for it?

If I dare a quote from the BRB: "The first part of the rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type - essentially its chassis and crew - which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires."

Which part of the rules do you think "fires like a Stone Thrower" will go under?

Just as the Cygor/scraplauncher/Ku'gath/ etc, the Hellcannon can't pivot in the Shooting Phase..

So, according to your logic, you can't determine the hellcannon's LOS since the rules for determining how to shoot a war machine contain where to draw the LOS from on the war machine. Let's take a look at the wonderful tale of misinformation you've spun for us. Now, just using Stone Thrower rules on pg 114, 115, according to this you place the 3" template within the war machine's LOS outside the stone thrower's minimum range and within max range. Now how do you determine LOS? Normally LOS for shooting is contained within the front arc of the model as determined by extending lines from the 45* of the base. Alas, our poor hellcannon has no base therefore no forward arc. From this we can either say the cannon cannot fire directly and must fire every shot indirectly, or the hellcannon can see everything and thus doesn't have to be facing a target.

Or, maybe the third and slightly less confusing option is that we actually read the rules like I wanted to do to begin with. Now, on pg 109 under the heading "Shooting with War Machines", it says "All war machine weapons have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules. Each type of war machine weapon is fired differently, as described in its own set of rules. Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target." This section is talking about how to actually fire the war machine weapon. Which they had to put in because guess what ... I know this sounds crazy ... but they don't have bases either just like our poor little hellcannon.

So, lets see according to your rules you can never fire the hellcannon or you can shoot at anything without facing the target OR you can actually follow the rules and have it actually function properly. HMMMM I wonder which one is right?

Kalandros
28-09-2010, 08:06
You people all miss the point that the Pivot can only be done toward something within your arc of sight.

If you can't see it, you can't pivot to shoot it. You have to pivot in the Movement phase. If you forget, your war machine cannot select a target that isn't in its arc of sight.

Synnister
28-09-2010, 09:27
You people all miss the point that the Pivot can only be done toward something within your arc of sight.

If you can't see it, you can't pivot to shoot it. You have to pivot in the Movement phase. If you forget, your war machine cannot select a target that isn't in its arc of sight.

Where does it say that you have to pivot in the Movement phase? The rule on pg 109 says before you fire pivot to face your target. It actually says this is not a movement. So, why would something done before firing and not movement be done in the movement phase?

Blkc57
28-09-2010, 09:33
Hahahaha, I do love the rules forum. The only place where you can ask a question and get the most random answers ever. I'm gonna side with the crew here that has been arguing that pivoting is integral to firing the stone thrower, thus when a Hell Cannon "fires as a stone thrower" it can pivot to face its target.

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 12:51
Stone throwers dont pivot....
You just place the template in line of sight(or fire indirectly).

War machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the Hellcannon isnt a war machine.

Nothing sugguests it would be allowed to pivot simply by firing as a stone thrower. Stone throwers aren't allowed to move and shoot, nor are they allowed to stand and shoot, hence the FAQ answer's.

Seems very clear cut to me.

tub, come on man, you're not seriously telling me that you've been pivoting your war machines in the movement phase, right? Tell me it's not true!

But seriously, war machines don't pivot in the movement phase. They pivot on the spot to face their opponent, and the pivot is done in the Shooting phase. It's a free movement that actually doesn't even count as movement. If a target is out of line of sight at the start of the Shooting phase, the war machine can effectively pivot to where they are within line of sight. Stone throwers do this as well if they can't see their target. Hellcannons function as war machines in the Shooting phase, so they may pivot in the Shooting phase.

Note that you don't have to pivot if your target is already within line of sight.

Last Edition
28-09-2010, 13:17
tub, come on man, you're not seriously telling me that you've been pivoting your war machines in the movement phase, right? Tell me it's not true!

But seriously, war machines don't pivot in the movement phase. They pivot on the spot to face their opponent, and the pivot is done in the Shooting phase. It's a free movement that actually doesn't even count as movement. If a target is out of line of sight at the start of the Shooting phase, the war machine can effectively pivot to where they are within line of sight. Stone throwers do this as well if they can't see their target. Hellcannons function as war machines in the Shooting phase, so they may pivot in the Shooting phase.

Note that you don't have to pivot if your target is already within line of sight.

No where in the rules does it state that the Hellcannon functions as a war machine, that is something you assume from one single phrase "fires as a stone thrower". The Hellcannon uses the line of sight rules for his troop type, which is "monster" and fires his weapon as a stone thrower.

By your logic, a Beastlord with the hunting spear, or a High Elf Prince on a Star Dragon with the Seafarer Bow, can pivot in the shooting phase and fire their weapons which "fires as a bolt thrower".

T10
28-09-2010, 14:38
It's a free movement that actually doesn't even count as movement. If a target is out of line of sight at the start of the Shooting phase, the war machine can effectively pivot to where they are within line of sight.

Pivoting is movement and is done in the movement phase.

-T10

Synnister
28-09-2010, 19:17
No where in the rules does it state that the Hellcannon functions as a war machine, that is something you assume from one single phrase "fires as a stone thrower". The Hellcannon uses the line of sight rules for his troop type, which is "monster" and fires his weapon as a stone thrower.

By your logic, a Beastlord with the hunting spear, or a High Elf Prince on a Star Dragon with the Seafarer Bow, can pivot in the shooting phase and fire their weapons which "fires as a bolt thrower".

The difference between a beastlord and a HE prince is that they have bases. The hellcannon doesn't. Therefore you cannot determine LOS because you can't determine forward arc of the monster. That is why you have to use the rules for firing a stone thrower when talking about the hellcannon.

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 19:32
The difference between a beastlord and a HE prince is that they have bases. The hellcannon doesn't. Therefore you cannot determine LOS because you can't determine forward arc of the monster. That is why you have to use the rules for firing a stone thrower when talking about the hellcannon.

This. T10, pivoting isn't done in the Movement phase with war machines. It's done on the spot.


Before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).

To further this explanation, there is no normal Pivot move that can be done in the Movement phase by anything else. It's not even described in the Movement section of the rules, only wheeling (which is different). Pivoting on the spot is meant for range and line of sight. The Hellcannon would therefore need to pivot on the spot to face its target for things like range, line of sight, etc. You're saying a Hellcannon can only shoot straight ahead of it? I'm confused why you guys are confused.

Last Edition
28-09-2010, 19:42
The difference between a beastlord and a HE prince is that they have bases. The hellcannon doesn't. Therefore you cannot determine LOS because you can't determine forward arc of the monster. That is why you have to use the rules for firing a stone thrower when talking about the hellcannon.

That is nonsense. Base or not is irrelevant since they are not covered by the BRB, and Hellcannon is still bound by line of sight rules for being a monster troop type - base or no base.

If I am wrong and the Hellcannon follow the rules for War Machines, the opponent can only charge him with six infantry models, or 3 cavalry models...

a18no
28-09-2010, 19:50
This. T10, pivoting isn't done in the Movement phase with war machines. It's done on the spot.



To further this explanation, there is no normal Pivot move that can be done in the Movement phase by anything else. It's not even described in the Movement section of the rules, only wheeling (which is different). Pivoting on the spot is meant for range and line of sight. The Hellcannon would therefore need to pivot on the spot to face its target for things like range, line of sight, etc. You're saying a Hellcannon can only shoot straight ahead of it? I'm confused why you guys are confused.

Actually, pivoting is a movement with no consequences (can shoot even if you get the rule move OR shoot) that must be done in the movement phase.

BUT you get another "free pivot" in the shooting phase to place the warmachine in line with it's target. Target that must be selected BEFORE that free pivot (look closely in the BRB). How can you choose a target in your back? You must do so in your front arc prior to the free pivot to face directly your target (for line of sight purpose).

Many haven't carefully looked that part of the warmachines shooting. T10 and Kalandros have done that part correctly.

Greyfire
28-09-2010, 19:58
Actually, pivoting is a movement with no consequences (can shoot even if you get the rule move OR shoot) that must be done in the movement phase.
Where do you get the underlined part from? I haven't read that in the BRB or seen that kind of description before.

So you're thinking I pivot during movement, and then I get a second pivot during shooting? Why would I ever need the second pivot?

How are we confused on this? We've all played this game quite a while.

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 20:01
Where do you get the underlined part from? I haven't read that in the BRB or seen that kind of description before.

This. You can't find it because it's not there. Also, you just confirmed that stone throwers may pivot when firing, which is what the OP asked and what I told him.

Lord Inquisitor
28-09-2010, 20:02
This is all getting way overthought.

"The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower." It is not a war machine but fires as if it were a stone thrower.

So, you follow the firing procedure for stone throwers. The stone thrower is bound by the rules on pages 114-115, but also the "shooting with war machines" rules on page 109. Including pivoting.

Suggesting the hellcannon may not pivot to fire seems absurd. Conversely, there's no actual rule that states that the stone thrower actually has to fire within it's forward arc (due to the definition of LOS and AOS being different). So you could argue that it has 360-degree LOS, which is equally absurd.

The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower war machine, so it pivots. It fires at targets in its front arc (otherwise why pivot?) like other missiles. You can argue RAW until you are blue in the face but this is clearly the rules as intended. You disagree? Fine, then the matter is still moot when using the strained RAW as described in this thread - you want to play the hellcannon can't pivot? Then also play that the hellcannon doesn't require the target to be in its forward arc to fire as there's no rule to this effect. Balance is restored and the net effect is largely the same. Two RAWs make a RAI? ;)

a18no
28-09-2010, 20:23
Where do you get the underlined part from? I haven't read that in the BRB or seen that kind of description before.

So you're thinking I pivot during movement, and then I get a second pivot during shooting? Why would I ever need the second pivot?

How are we confused on this? We've all played this game quite a while.

You need the second pivot to be directly in front of your target, for range calculation. But still need to pick a valid target, the valid target must be in the front arc.

Last Edition
28-09-2010, 20:36
This is all getting way overthought.

"The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower." It is not a war machine but fires as if it were a stone thrower.

So, you follow the firing procedure for stone throwers. The stone thrower is bound by the rules on pages 114-115, but also the "shooting with war machines" rules on page 109. Including pivoting.

Suggesting the hellcannon may not pivot to fire seems absurd. Conversely, there's no actual rule that states that the stone thrower actually has to fire within it's forward arc (due to the definition of LOS and AOS being different). So you could argue that it has 360-degree LOS, which is equally absurd.

The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower war machine, so it pivots. It fires at targets in its front arc (otherwise why pivot?) like other missiles. You can argue RAW until you are blue in the face but this is clearly the rules as intended. You disagree? Fine, then the matter is still moot when using the strained RAW as described in this thread - you want to play the hellcannon can't pivot? Then also play that the hellcannon doesn't require the target to be in its forward arc to fire as there's no rule to this effect. Balance is restored and the net effect is largely the same. Two RAWs make a RAI? ;)

hehe all agreed, except for the underlined part :)

SiNNiX
28-09-2010, 20:40
This is all getting way overthought.

"The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower." It is not a war machine but fires as if it were a stone thrower.

So, you follow the firing procedure for stone throwers. The stone thrower is bound by the rules on pages 114-115, but also the "shooting with war machines" rules on page 109. Including pivoting.

Suggesting the hellcannon may not pivot to fire seems absurd. Conversely, there's no actual rule that states that the stone thrower actually has to fire within it's forward arc (due to the definition of LOS and AOS being different). So you could argue that it has 360-degree LOS, which is equally absurd.

The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower war machine, so it pivots. It fires at targets in its front arc (otherwise why pivot?) like other missiles. You can argue RAW until you are blue in the face but this is clearly the rules as intended. You disagree? Fine, then the matter is still moot when using the strained RAW as described in this thread - you want to play the hellcannon can't pivot? Then also play that the hellcannon doesn't require the target to be in its forward arc to fire as there's no rule to this effect. Balance is restored and the net effect is largely the same. Two RAWs make a RAI? ;)

Lord Inquisitor is, yet again, my hero. He words things not only better than I do, but nicer too! :)

Edit: Go check out my Daemon character in the GW Rules Development Forums! Does anyone even read those forums?

Lord Inquisitor
28-09-2010, 20:40
hehe all agreed, except for the underlined part :)

Well, my argument is that stone throwers fire using the "shooting with war machines" rules, therefore something that fires as a stone thrower would also use these rules, even though it isn't a war machine per se. Otherwise it wouldn't be firing "as a stone thrower" as it doesn't use all the rules a stone thrower does.

decker_cky
28-09-2010, 20:49
A stone thrower is a war machine. Firing as a stone thrower includes firing as a war machine. It's implicit from there being firing rules in the war machine section which apply to all war machines later described.

Yrrdead
29-09-2010, 02:39
Well, my argument is that stone throwers fire using the "shooting with war machines" rules, therefore something that fires as a stone thrower would also use these rules, even though it isn't a war machine per se. Otherwise it wouldn't be firing "as a stone thrower" as it doesn't use all the rules a stone thrower does.

To preface, I'm not arguing this because i'm strongly for or against , I simply find this interesting so please don't get too indignant.

LI -

Help me make the leap. I'll continue using stone throwers for some continuity.

Stone Throwers are War Machines (unit type). They follow the rules on pg 108-110.
Being Stone Throwers (war machine weapon type). They also follow the rules on pg 114-115. I'm with you so far.

Where are we getting that "fires like a stone thrower" = war machine weapon?

Is this just a ruling of convenience/simplicity ? By that I mean the alternatives are much less elegant and introduce inconsistencies.

Thanks in advance.

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 03:25
Simply if it fires as a stone thrower then it uses all the rules for firing a stone thrower. Some of the rules for firing a stone thrower are under the stone thrower's specific rules, others are rules that pertain to all war machine shooting but both are used when firing a stone thrower - consequently something that fires "as a stone thrower" should use all of the rules that a stone thrower uses when it fires. It doesn't make the hellcannon a war machine, but it fires like one (specifically a stone thrower).

Synnister
29-09-2010, 03:32
Simply if it fires as a stone thrower then it uses all the rules for firing a stone thrower. Some of the rules for firing a stone thrower are under the stone thrower's specific rules, others are rules that pertain to all war machine shooting but both are used when firing a stone thrower - consequently something that fires "as a stone thrower" should use all of the rules that a stone thrower uses when it fires. It doesn't make the hellcannon a war machine, but it fires like one (specifically a stone thrower).

This is the way it works. Otherwise you can't get the rules to work. On a side note ... can the hellcannon charge since it lacks a base therefore no way to determine forward arc?

Last Edition
29-09-2010, 08:19
This is the way it works. Otherwise you can't get the rules to work. On a side note ... can the hellcannon charge since it lacks a base therefore no way to determine forward arc?

I have said all I have to say about the Helcannon, but I just wanted to comment alittle on your no base query. [ alittle of topic, sorry :) ]

If you read page 80 in the BRB "models and base size" you can see that it suggests that you put any model that do not come with a base when bought, on a base of appropriate size. This will make gaming a lot easier for both you and your opponent.

Synnister
29-09-2010, 09:12
right but that is not a hard rule as it's a suggestion. Also, I'd doubt the hellcannon model would fit on the monster base.

Last Edition
29-09-2010, 09:30
I don't understand why you are opposing their suggestion? It solves you LOS/front arc problem, and you are even allowed to mount the Hellcannon on a appropriate base.

It don't need to be a monster base. Try a 75x100mm or a 80x100mm, or even a 100x100mm...as long you don't overdo it.

Althwen
29-09-2010, 11:48
Pivoting is movement and is done in the movement phase.

-T10

I've been playing it like T10 says. However, all arguments here made me rethink this and I think the outcome lies in the BRB where 'pivoting' is mentioned.
If it's mentioned as part of the shooting phase, then I stand corrected.

But if it's mentioned in the movement phase, you'll just have to face it: A hellcannon is not move and fire.
I don't have my book with me, so I'm unable to check it myself atm.

Chris_
29-09-2010, 12:06
I've been playing it like T10 says. However, all arguments here made me rethink this and I think the outcome lies in the BRB where 'pivoting' is mentioned.
If it's mentioned as part of the shooting phase, then I stand corrected.

But if it's mentioned in the movement phase, you'll just have to face it: A hellcannon is not move and fire.
I don't have my book with me, so I'm unable to check it myself atm.It is mentioned as part of shooting with a warmachine, pivoting is done during the shooting phase.

Althwen
29-09-2010, 12:08
It is mentioned as part of shooting with a warmachine, pivoting is done during the shooting phase.

Alright, well that actually settles things for me. Cheerio.

Fubar
29-09-2010, 13:45
Just to throw this in here, in the first line of description in WOC Army book for Hellcannon it says. "Part daemon, part war machine...."

a18no
29-09-2010, 13:48
It is mentioned as part of shooting with a warmachine, pivoting is done during the shooting phase.

1- Except that you pivot in the shooting phase to face your target.
2- But you must choose the target before the pivot.
3- And that target must be in the front arc of the warmachines
4- The front arc is determined by the point where you shoot, making a 90degree arc center on that point (cover in the BRB).

All of this force you to pivot in the movement phase before, cause you will not have your target in you front arc.

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 14:00
While I think it's patently obvious that war machines are meant to simply pivot and then fire (particularly since war machines don't have bases, flanks or rears, how do they have front arcs?), my question to you is this: where does it say that war machines must pick a target in their front arc? (As opposed to Line of Sight, which is not the same thing.)

a18no
29-09-2010, 14:35
While I think it's patently obvious that war machines are meant to simply pivot and then fire (particularly since war machines don't have bases, flanks or rears, how do they have front arcs?), my question to you is this: where does it say that war machines must pick a target in their front arc? (As opposed to Line of Sight, which is not the same thing.)

In the warmachines section.. second page if i'm correct, down left.. will check later on.

Greyfire
29-09-2010, 15:01
I think you mean page 109 for the Shooting with War Machines rules:

"LOS is always taken from the chosen firing point - before you fire the war machine, pivot to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)"

And from page 114 for the stone throwers' specific rules:

"take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's LoS"

Hmmm... so I guess the stonethrower doesn't actually have to get in a perfect line like the cannon does. That's interesting. I didn't notice that before.

So that's the LOS rules. No reference to front arc as far as I can see. I'll accept that front arc is commonly defined as what the warmachine can see. I just don't see where I'm restricted from turning around to shoot at something behind me. I don't see where the target must be selected prior to pivoting. My target has to end up in my LOS after the pivot (stonethrower rule) and I must pivot to face my target (warmachine rule) but the selection of the target isn't clearly defined.

BTW, to fire indirectly you select a target outside of LOS. That makes it sound like the target is selected prior to the pivot, and in this case the pivot isn't really required.

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 15:17
The war machine rules have actually been designed to do away with arcs... there's no rule that actually requires working out front/side/rear arc for war machines and several exceptions from the normal arc rules. This is deliberate, presumably because they are typically sold without bases and there's just no easy way to work it out.

a18no
29-09-2010, 15:23
Nothing in this game got 360degree line of sight. So having to take a target in your line of sight is definitive.

And I'm sure that in the p.109, they explain what is the Los and the 90 degree arc centered on the cannon.

T10
29-09-2010, 16:02
It is mentioned as part of shooting with a warmachine, pivoting is done during the shooting phase.

What makes you think the war machine shoots in the shooting phase? The rules do not explicitly state this, but we assume it does so because it is shooting.

As pivoting is a form of movement it seems natural to infer that this is done in the movement phase.

-T10

Greyfire
29-09-2010, 16:19
As pivoting is a form of movement it seems natural to infer that this is done in the movement phase.
We don't have to infer anymore. I missed something in the cannon section that says "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase". That seems very clear now. Their reason is to bring the target into LOS.

So obviously we choose the target during the movement phase! :) (Just kidding on that last bit - please don't respond to it.)

I'm pretty sure all the games I'll see played will still have the pivoting done at the in shooting phase. It's just what people are used to from past editions. Old habits die hard, I guess.

Lord Inquisitor
29-09-2010, 16:20
Nothing in this game got 360degree line of sight. So having to take a target in your line of sight is definitive.

And I'm sure that in the p.109, they explain what is the Los and the 90 degree arc centered on the cannon.
Get your rulebook and be positive and we'll continue this discussion ;) Otherwise we're going round in circles. If you're right you need to get a rulebook reference because I can't find it.


What makes you think the war machine shoots in the shooting phase? The rules do not explicitly state this, but we assume it does so because it is shooting.

As pivoting is a form of movement it seems natural to infer that this is done in the movement phase.
*Scratches head* because it says to do it when shooting? Under "Shooting with war machines" it says to pivot and this doesn't count as moving. Given that its listed under the shooting rules as a specific exception, no, I don't think its natural at all to infer that the rules for shooting apply in the Movement phase.

Edit:


We don't have to infer anymore. I missed something in the cannon section that says "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase". That seems very clear now. Their reason is to bring the target into LOS.
So it does. Yay for consistency! :rolleyes:

Yellow Commissar
29-09-2010, 18:34
The war machine rules have actually been designed to do away with arcs... there's no rule that actually requires working out front/side/rear arc for war machines and several exceptions from the normal arc rules. This is deliberate, presumably because they are typically sold without bases and there's just no easy way to work it out.

Agreed. Unfortunately there is still an argument that warmachines do have arcs and chargers still need to contact the arc charged. It is not an argument I agree with, but a popular one with Empire players.

The other problem with the Hellcannon is since it is a monster and it doesn't have a base, how do we determine which arc a charge is coming from?

I think perhaps it would be easiest to put Hellcannons on bases.

a18no
29-09-2010, 18:42
Agreed. Unfortunately there is still an argument that warmachines do have arcs and chargers still need to contact the arc charged. It is not an argument I agree with, but a popular one with Empire players.

The other problem with the Hellcannon is since it is a monster and it doesn't have a base, how do we determine which arc a charge is coming from?

I think perhaps it would be easiest to put Hellcannons on bases.

Make it clear with your opponent at the beginning of the game... what's the point?

Normally the front is where the thing shoot, make it from there.

Yellow Commissar
29-09-2010, 18:48
Make it clear with your opponent at the beginning of the game... what's the point?

Normally the front is where the thing shoot, make it from there.

Where do you draw the diagonal line to determine front from flank?

Particularly if your opponent is using an amazingly converted one.

The rules only provide us with a method for doing this with models on bases. I don't want to wait until I think I have a flank charge and my opponent disputes it to figure out where the things flank arc is.

Greyfire
29-09-2010, 19:05
What difference does the flank charge make? In this edition warmachines do not have flanks or a rear as far as combat results are concerned. Chargers do not "close the door" either, they just stop as soon as they hit the warmachine, so there's nothing a base would help with there either. It doesn't seem like having a clearly defined arc would matter with this edition, at least as far as charging goes.

SiNNiX
29-09-2010, 23:58
What difference does the flank charge make? In this edition warmachines do not have flanks or a rear as far as combat results are concerned. Chargers do not "close the door" either, they just stop as soon as they hit the warmachine, so there's nothing a base would help with there either. It doesn't seem like having a clearly defined arc would matter with this edition, at least as far as charging goes.

Although the Hellcannon fires as a type of war machine, it's still a Monster for all other rules purposes.

Chris_
30-09-2010, 00:21
What makes you think the war machine shoots in the shooting phase? The rules do not explicitly state this, but we assume it does so because it is shooting.

As pivoting is a form of movement it seems natural to infer that this is done in the movement phase.

-T10:D This actually made me laugh. Dude, pg. 38 Shooting :p

Greyfire
30-09-2010, 00:57
Although the Hellcannon fires as a type of war machine, it's still a Monster for all other rules purposes.
Doh! I forgot that part. Thanks!

SiNNiX
30-09-2010, 02:10
Doh! I forgot that part. Thanks!

Everybody gets 1.

Yellow Commissar
30-09-2010, 02:51
Although the Hellcannon fires as a type of war machine, it's still a Monster for all other rules purposes.

I'd be happy to just treat it like a warmachine when I charge it if my opponent agreed! :evilgrin:

I could take a Star Dragon and wheel into and through one and into the other one I just happened to have charged with an Eagle. That would solve my Hellcannon problems.

SiNNiX
30-09-2010, 03:58
I'd be happy to just treat it like a warmachine when I charge it if my opponent agreed! :evilgrin:

I could take a Star Dragon and wheel into and through one and into the other one I just happened to have charged with an Eagle. That would solve my Hellcannon problems.

You know what else would solve your Hellcannon problems? Horses... lots of horses.

WITH CARROTS!

What?

So my friend (who plays WOC) has decided that he's going to buy a Dwarf Cannon and convert it into a Hellcannon. So... he's going to glue Minotaur horns onto the barrel of the cannon and paint the dwarfs evil-like. Then paint the cannon black and put the sign from the mounted Lord of Nurgle on the base (it DOES come with that sign, right?), and the sign's gonna say "Chaos." Hilarious.

T10
30-09-2010, 07:12
:D This actually made me laugh. Dude, pg. 38 Shooting :p

So you don't see a problem with referring to a different chapter when it comes to shooting with the war machine. Let's extend that flexibility and pivot the war machine in the movement phase.

-T10

Chris_
30-09-2010, 07:19
So you don't see a problem with referring to a different chapter when it comes to shooting with the war machine. Let's extend that flexibility and pivot the war machine in the movement phase.

-T10Not a very good argument... But thanks for trying! (the reminder in the rules for cannons is a better reference)

a18no
30-09-2010, 13:29
Where do you draw the diagonal line to determine front from flank?

Particularly if your opponent is using an amazingly converted one.

The rules only provide us with a method for doing this with models on bases. I don't want to wait until I think I have a flank charge and my opponent disputes it to figure out where the things flank arc is.

Why do you want to make diagonal?? That is ONE way to know the front arc, I've said one more like what? 5 times on this topic.

The front arc is a 90degree arc. 45 degree from a diagonal is a way to determine where is the big arc, but make the same as a full 90degree arc CENTERED on the canon and you'll find the front/flank and rear. Simple as that.

SiNNiX
30-09-2010, 13:41
the reminder in the rules for cannons is a better reference

Things just got complicated.


Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon's line of sight.

T10, you were right, buddy. I was wrong. GG!

That being said, the reason this complicates the whole argument is that we were assuming the Hellcannon could pivot and fire as the OP asked, because the Hellcannon's pivot was part of the firing process, therefore the phrase "fires as a stone thrower" would include the pivot done in the Shooting phase before firing.

However, now that it's clear pivoting is done in the Movement phase, it brings forth the question: Can a Hellcannon pivot in the Movement phase since it fires like a particular war machine? I am now inclined to say "no" (sorry people who were arguing against this like I was). The reason being that the Hellcannon is of the Monster troop type, and Monsters cannot pivot, and must wheel which counts as having moved for all shooting purposes. The Hellcannon "fires as a stone thrower," but I don't think that gives it permission to "move" like one and pivot in the Movement phase.

Damn... sucks for WOC players I guess.

a18no
30-09-2010, 13:49
Sorry, but monsters can pivot on their own center any number of time they want. Go read once more!!

Good games

SiNNiX
30-09-2010, 14:06
Sorry, but monsters can pivot on their own center any number of time they want. Go read once more!!

Good games

Ah, found it.


[Lone Models] move, whell and march just like a larger unit. The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn.

So why wasn't this entry posted as one of the very first responses? Haha! That would've saved us four pages of scrutiny! :) Good work, a1 BBQ sauce!

Edit: Wait... another dilemma: Click me. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5016793#post5016793)

decker_cky
30-09-2010, 16:13
I'd be happy to just treat it like a warmachine when I charge it if my opponent agreed! :evilgrin:

I could take a Star Dragon and wheel into and through one and into the other one I just happened to have charged with an Eagle. That would solve my Hellcannon problems.

You sure about that? Then you'd use the crew's toughness in combat. ;)

T10
30-09-2010, 22:24
T10, you were right, buddy. I was wrong. GG!

I'm as surprised as you are!

-T10

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
01-10-2010, 00:52
I don't see that it matters that much as it fires like artillery, eg 360 LOS and is unbreakable anyway,

oh, hey Sigurd.....

Dan

AMWOOD co
01-10-2010, 03:30
Okay, so we've opened a flood gate, supposedly, when bringing in the 'Lone Models and Movement' rule of page 27. However, we can throw that out real fast.


...-although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on.

The 'Shooting With War Machines' rule specifically allows warmarchines to fire after pivoting, therefore the 'Lone Models and Movement' rule has no place in this particular arguement other than that a Hellcannon may pivot (see Monsters and Handlers, p 73)

Now, can someone explain why this line of reasoning doesn't work?

A Hellcannon fires like a Stone Thrower.
A Stone Thrower is a War Machine.
Therefore, a Hellcannon fires like a War Machine.

Am I missing something?

Now, the only question remaining seems to be, "When does a war machine pivot, during the movement or shooting phase?" My answer would be movement for RAW but I will gladly houserule shooting at any time. After all, war machines have no arcs anymore and so need not worry about facing issues. If you did enforce movement, you may have a war machine firing sideways at a unit that fled during the magic phase (and it would be techinically legal, too).

As such, whatever you do for war machines should also be done for Hellcannons.

Finally, to whoever brought up the Bow of the Sea Farer, read the bow again. It fires like a longbow. It hits like a bolt thrower, but that's different.

SiNNiX
01-10-2010, 06:42
Now, can someone explain why this line of reasoning doesn't work?

A Hellcannon fires like a Stone Thrower.
A Stone Thrower is a War Machine.
Therefore, a Hellcannon fires like a War Machine.

Am I missing something?


Nope. That's how it works.

T10
01-10-2010, 06:58
I don't see that it matters that much as it fires like artillery, eg 360 LOS and is unbreakable anyway,

oh, hey Sigurd.....

Dan

Hey, Dan.

The main difference is that the target needs to be within the model's "forward arc", a term that pretty much replaces the arc-of-sight "blinders" of previous editions.

The Hellannon is quite big, so it should be able to draw line-of-sight over most enemy units, though. On the other hand... Aren't the Hell Cannon's eyes more or less on the mdoel's back? Or is it the skull thing between the front wheels?

http://www.distantlightminiatures.com/Hellcannon.jpg

-T10

a18no
01-10-2010, 15:06
Hey, Dan.

The main difference is that the target needs to be within the model's "forward arc", a term that pretty much replaces the arc-of-sight "blinders" of previous editions.

The Hellannon is quite big, so it should be able to draw line-of-sight over most enemy units, though. On the other hand... Aren't the Hell Cannon's eyes more or less on the mdoel's back? Or is it the skull thing between the front wheels?

http://www.distantlightminiatures.com/Hellcannon.jpg

-T10

We can make it funny though

-The front arc of a "warmachines" is always the 90 degree arc centered on the CANNON, the place where you mesure range. So he shoot on a target that is placed in this arc.
- If the eyes are on the other side, and you say that the front arc of the "monster" is there, he can't charged where he shoot.. :p cause the hellcannon "monster" can't see there!, but the hellcannon "warmachines" can :shifty::shifty:

But for game purpose, I would assume that the front arc of the canon is the same as the front arc of the monster. :D

Lord Inquisitor
01-10-2010, 16:19
The main difference is that the target needs to be within the model's "forward arc", a term that pretty much replaces the arc-of-sight "blinders" of previous editions.
Uh, given that we're all pretty much agreed on the hellcannon front, this is purely academic... I can't find anything that says a war machine need fire in its "forward arc" or indeed, any reference to arcs at all with war machines (in combat the arcs of the war machine are ignored). I mean, it's kind of a moot point in almost all cases given that the actual facing of the war machine is entirely immaterial as far as I can tell - presumably entirely deliberately given the difficulty in actually calculating arcs on a war machine. (But isn't Warseer the place for these kind of pointless debates? :o)

Modaavi
01-10-2010, 20:27
Uh, given that we're all pretty much agreed on the hellcannon front, this is purely academic... I can't find anything that says a war machine need fire in its "forward arc" or indeed, any reference to arcs at all with war machines (in combat the arcs of the war machine are ignored). I mean, it's kind of a moot point in almost all cases given that the actual facing of the war machine is entirely immaterial as far as I can tell - presumably entirely deliberately given the difficulty in actually calculating arcs on a war machine. (But isn't Warseer the place for these kind of pointless debates? :o)

Not entirely pointless when it comes to working out favorable overrun paths on a gunline positioned against the board edge. If warmachines have arcs, you would very likely have to charge the front, making it impossible to overrun into another machine that turn, but if they have no arcs, you could get creative with your wheel and end up parallel to the board edge, with much nicer possibilities. :)

Greyfire
01-10-2010, 21:14
If warmachines have arcs, you would very likely have to charge the front, making it impossible to overrun into another machine that turn, but if they have no arcs, you could get creative with your wheel and end up parallel to the board edge, with much nicer possibilities. :)
For a true warmachine there is no "closing the door" on the charge. Once the charger hits they are stuck. Since warmachine combat is limited by the number of models that can fight on each side, and not on models in base contact, there's really nothing to help you maximize the models in contact either. So you do get to be clever with the wheel before the charge. (Again, please let me know if I've got any of this wrong. This mechanic feels broken to me.)

Against the Hellcannon though, not so much help there.

SiNNiX
01-10-2010, 22:53
For a true warmachine there is no "closing the door" on the charge. Once the charger hits they are stuck. Since warmachine combat is limited by the number of models that can fight on each side, and not on models in base contact, there's really nothing to help you maximize the models in contact either. So you do get to be clever with the wheel before the charge. (Again, please let me know if I've got any of this wrong. This mechanic feels broken to me.)

Against the Hellcannon though, not so much help there.

Both you and the poster above you are correct.

AMWOOD co
02-10-2010, 06:32
The main difference is that the target needs to be within the model's "forward arc", a term that pretty much replaces the arc-of-sight "blinders" of previous editions.

Really, where does it say that? The rules for firing a stone thrower say that the target must be in Line of Sight; it does not say the target must be in the front arc. In fact, the only warmachine that an arguement for front arc could be made for is the bolt thrower as it is the only one that says to use the standard rules for targetting (front arc, line of sight, and not in combat).

It is for this reason that I would pivot my machine in the shooting phase more than any other. The Hellcannon, firing as a stone thrower, would thus pivot in the same phase.

T10
02-10-2010, 08:13
Really, where does it say that?

2. CHOOSE A TARGET (p.39):

"(...) Firstly the target must lie at least partially within the shooting model's forward arc, (...)"

War machines are not exempt from the shooting rules unless otherwise specified.

-T10

Last Edition
02-10-2010, 08:32
Really, where does it say that? The rules for firing a stone thrower say that the target must be in Line of Sight; it does not say the target must be in the front arc. In fact, the only warmachine that an arguement for front arc could be made for is the bolt thrower as it is the only one that says to use the standard rules for targetting (front arc, line of sight, and not in combat).

It is for this reason that I would pivot my machine in the shooting phase more than any other. The Hellcannon, firing as a stone thrower, would thus pivot in the same phase.

By assuming "firing as a stone thrower" equals fire as a war machine, you are opening a big can of worms (other weapons that following the same wording) .
The war machine rules are very specific that only war machines troop types follow the first section of the rules... not monsters with special weapons, nor lone models, and not units with the monster and handlers special rule. They even tell you to check your troop type in the back of the BRB so that you will be sure that it is a war machine.

Korraz
02-10-2010, 09:01
After some thinking, I'd say: The Hellcannon cannot pivot, nor does it in any kind get any other boni or mali of a warmachine. For example, the Ironcurse doesn't work either on it. It's a monster that happens to be able to shoot like a Warmachine. A monster and nothing else is specified in its rules.

AMWOOD co
02-10-2010, 16:36
To T10: As I said before, only the Bolt Thrower uses the targetting rules mentioned in the shooting phase. Every other warmachine uses its own set of rules, none of which say anything about arcs.


By assuming "firing as a stone thrower" equals fire as a war machine, you are opening a big can of worms (other weapons that following the same wording) .
The war machine rules are very specific that only war machines troop types follow the first section of the rules... not monsters with special weapons, nor lone models, and not units with the monster and handlers special rule. They even tell you to check your troop type in the back of the BRB so that you will be sure that it is a war machine.

I don't see the problem. The only other weapons that I know that this would apply to off the top of my head are the Scrap Launcher and maybe the Hunter Harpoon gun and Stegadon great bow. It's not a large list (and I know that the Scrap Launcher and Harpoon Gun are specifically dealt with). Other weapons 'hit' like a warmachine but are fired or used like something else (hand to hand or as another shooting weapon).

Besides, I don't see the difficulty with the whole thing of saying something that shoots like a stone thrower does so in all ways, it saves confusion if everyone agrees that you follow the proceedure for shooting as a stone thrower. I'm not claiming that a Hellcannon act as a War machine in any other respect (not having arcs, only 6 men may fight it, etc) as it is clearly a monster that has a weapon which shoots like a kind of War Machine.

Korraz
02-10-2010, 17:19
Yeah, but then the Cygor, the Elves with the Bolt-Thrower Bows and so on enter the screen.

SiNNiX
02-10-2010, 17:25
This argument is moot considering that even if the Hellcannon didn't fire as a war machine, and instead followed the rules for moving as monsters and pivoting as monsters, it's still allowed to pivot on the spot as many times as it wants without penalty to movement or shooting. It's a Lone Model as the handlers are not factored in for rules purposes except for the exceptions listed in their appropriate section.

The Hellcannon can pivot and fire.

Last Edition
02-10-2010, 17:44
This argument is moot considering that even if the Hell Cannon didn't fire as a war machine, and instead followed the rules for moving as monsters and pivoting as monsters, it's still allowed to pivot on the spot as many times as it wants without penalty to movement or shooting. It's a Lone Model as the handlers are not factored in for rules purposes except for the exceptions listed in their appropriate section.

The Hell Cannon can pivot and fire.

lone models do get penalty for shooting if they pivot, as it counts as a movement - hellcannon is "move or fire" (as faq'ed).

SiNNiX
02-10-2010, 17:46
lone models do get penalty for shooting if they pivot, as it counts as a movement - hellcannon is "move or fire" (as faq'ed).

ORLY? Hmmm...


It can [pivot] without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn.

Korraz
02-10-2010, 17:47
This argument is moot considering that even if the Hell Cannon didn't fire as a war machine, and instead followed the rules for moving as monsters and pivoting as monsters, it's still allowed to pivot on the spot as many times as it wants without penalty to movement or shooting. It's a Lone Model as the handlers are not factored in for rules purposes except for the exceptions listed in their appropriate section.

The Hell Cannon can pivot and fire.

This is not the question.
The question is: Can it pivot for free and without penalties in the shooting phase.

Makrar
02-10-2010, 17:48
Even if it cant pivot it can still fire in a 360 arc. Id rather play it this way then potentially allow it to pivot and set up a charge as the thing is rather brutal in combat. :cries:

SiNNiX
02-10-2010, 17:49
This is not the question.
The question is: Can it pivot for free and without penalties in the shooting phase.

No. Pivoting is done in the Movement phase.



Even if it cant pivot it can still fire in a 360 arc. Id rather play it this way then potentially allow it to pivot and set up a charge as the thing is rather brutal in combat. :cries:

Never feed - I mean charge - a Hellcannon. There are other, better ways to deal with them. :)

Last Edition
02-10-2010, 17:59
ORLY? Hmmm...

it helps to read the whole paragraph... the quote you gave just tells us that you can move and shoot, you still get a modifier to your to hit rolls though.

read the last sentence in the first paragraph

SiNNiX
02-10-2010, 19:17
it helps to read the whole paragraph... the quote you gave just tells us that you can move and shoot, you still get a modifier to your to hit rolls though.

read the last sentence in the first paragraph

Agreed, didn't think of it that way. However, I still feel that the Hellcannon firing as a stone thrower means it may pivot without penalty like a stone thrower. Even if it's not 100% clear in the rules per RAW (considering "fires as a stone thrower" is pretty vague), you can't deny that it wasn't the devs' intention to have it be unable to pivot and fire like a stone thrower. This is understandable considering the rules for Hellcannon were written for 7th edition, where the model could clearly pivot and fire. This is probably just something the devs didn't notice, thus didn't fix in the Errata.

Either way, you WOC players have nothing to worry about if playing me; I'll let you pivot and fire. :p

Last Edition
02-10-2010, 19:29
I can honestly say that I think the intention is that the Hellcannon works exactly like a monster with a special weapon option, and that players that try and pivot the Hellcannon freely, to shoot, is trying to exploit the rules in their favor. In shorter words; I think the RAI is the same for both the Cygor and the Hellcannon. (even though the Cygor can move and shoot because he has specific rules allowing him to)

Lord Inquisitor
02-10-2010, 19:30
Haven't we already established that a hellcannon or other monster can pivot in the movement phase and still fire?

SiNNiX
02-10-2010, 19:45
Haven't we already established that a hellcannon or other monster can pivot in the movement phase and still fire?

Unfortunately no. The Hellcannon can definitely pivot on the spot, but there are two ways to translate the rules:

1. Because the Hellcannon "fires as a stone thrower," and stone throwers follow particular shooting rules listed in the War Machines section, the Hellcannon but also use these rules listed in the War Machines section. If this is the case, pivoting does not count as moving, and therefore the Hellcannon may pivot and fire.

2. Because the Hellcannon is of the Monster unit type, and only fires as a stone thrower, it does not fire as a war machine and therefore counts as moving when pivoting. Because the Hellcannon has the "Move or Fire" Special Rule, it may not pivot and fire as pivoting counts as moving for anything besides War Machines.

I personally go with the first theory, but that's just me. I don't really care how people want to play it.

Yellow Commissar
02-10-2010, 21:35
Haven't we already established that a hellcannon or other monster can pivot in the movement phase and still fire?

No. Although I have been house ruling that the hellcannon may pivot and fire, by rule it may not.

Yes, the hellcannon fires like a stone thrower. I disagree that means it also fires like a war machine. If it did, why did they faq the hellcannon so that it may not move and shoot or stand and shoot? They could have simply refered us to page 109 if those rules applied to the hellcannon.

Page 27 says that, yes, lone models may pivot, but that it "does count as moving for the purposes of shooting".

I have yet to see a rule allowing the hellcannon to pivot and still shoot.

That being said, what I am leaning towards now is that stone throwers do not, in fact, need to have thier target within thier front arc at all. Since the stone thrower rules, and the war machine rules too for that matter, are advanced rules, they override contradicting basic rules. (BRB pg.11)

Stone throwers are not required to target units nor shoot within thier front arc. They are only required to place the template in line of sight and range. This contradicts and therefore takes precedence over the basic shooting rule requiring models to target a unit at least partially within its forward arc. In fact stone thowers are not even required to target a unit. They may simply place the template over open space if they want.

Therefore, the hellcannon does not need, and may not, pivot when shooting. It just continues to face whatever direction it was deployed in unless it rampages off or chooses to move.

This is how I am going to offer to play it now with my friends that play Chaos. It makes the most sense to me.

As for the Ironcurs Icon, I would elect to play that is does work against shooting hits from the hellcannon. Although a hellcannon is a monster and not a war machine, the Icon works versus "war machine weapons". It does not specify "war machines". A stone thrower seems to be a "war machine weapon" to me. I admit it is not clear, though. I am merely offering my opinion on this.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. This discussion has helped me to review the relevant rules over the past week, and come to a conclusion about what I believe the rules actually say. :)

Lord Inquisitor
02-10-2010, 21:41
Page 27 says that, yes, lone models may pivot, but that it "does count as moving for the purposes of shooting".
I missed this ... yeah, I agree with what you say. That said, I still firmly believe that firing as a stone thrower was intended to include pivoting and the net effect is largely the same.

Yellow Commissar
02-10-2010, 23:17
I missed this ... yeah, I agree with what you say. That said, I still firmly believe that firing as a stone thrower was intended to include pivoting and the net effect is largely the same.

Oh, absolutely. When the Chaos book was written the intent was to allow them to pivot. Now, though, it doesn't matter. It doesn't even need errata, just a FAQ to clarify.

It should still be discussed beforehand as the implications for overrun avenues is rather large. I'm inclined to just agree with whomever I am playing, but now I at least know what I believe the rules to actually say. ;)

AMWOOD co
03-10-2010, 11:39
One thing to point out about the FAQ is that when the 1.0 version of the Warriors of Chaos FAQ came out, the very same questions about the Hellcannon were there. However, there were added notes to the answer.

Q: Can the Hellcannon Stand and Shoot?
A: No, it shoots like a stone thrower.

Q: Can the Hellcannon Move and Shoot?
A: No, it shoots like a stone thrower.

The questions were posted due to the same arguement we've been having, "Does shooting like a stone thrower mean shooting like a warmachine?" The precident set by these answers was a resounding "Yes".

With the 1.1 version of the FAQ, they took out the additions to the answer. Did they do this because they wanted to remove the implication or because they wanted the answer to be more polite and not seem like they were snapping at people for asking simple questions?

Needless, the answer seems to be a near concensous that a Hellcannon uses the Shooting With War Machines rules on page 109 (and nothing else from the warmachine section), or that it should as most everyone is willing to make such a house rule. The only question, and the Original Posters main one, is if the pivot mentioned is done in the movement phase or the shooting phase.

Can we finally put this whole "It shoots like a kind of War Machine but doesn't shoot like a War Machine," thing to rest?

antihelten
03-10-2010, 14:20
Stone throwers are not required to target units nor shoot within thier front arc. They are only required to place the template in line of sight and range.

Just a small note, take it for what you want. but Jervis Johnson wrote in the steadfast articles that all models have a 90 degree arc of sight. so if you follow that war machines are indeed required to shoot within their front arc (as that's the only place they have line of sight).

SiNNiX
03-10-2010, 18:05
The only question, and the Original Posters main one, is if the pivot mentioned is done in the movement phase or the shooting phase.

War Machines pivot in the Movement phase, but it doesn't count as Movement for all rules purposes. Therefore, the Hellcannon pivots without penalty in the Movement phase, and may still fire in the Shooting phase.



Just a small note, take it for what you want. but Jervis Johnson wrote in the steadfast articles that all models have a 90 degree arc of sight. so if you follow that war machines are indeed required to shoot within their front arc (as that's the only place they have line of sight).

Yes, all models in the game have forward, flank and rear arcs (not arcs of sight), and all war machines must choose a target that is within their forward arc and that they can draw and unblocked line of sight to. You pivot during the Movement phase to ensure that your War Machines have their intended targets inside their forward arc.

Note that line of sight and forward arcs are not directly correlated universally. It never mentions in the book that line of sight is determined from what the unit can see within its forward arc. It tells you to literally get down to where your model is and see what they can see. Arcs are for specific rules, like shooting and charging for example.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2010, 17:45
New rulebook errata changes the text to say that cannons pivot in the shooting phase.

Right, does that put this matter to rest?

Greyfire
11-10-2010, 18:13
I'd like to think it does. But it doesn't help with my understand of target selection. So which is it?

1) Cannon pivots at start of shooting to a target currently in it's LOS to aim at it?

2) Cannon pivots at start of shooting to any target to bring that target into it's LOS and to aim at it?

This is academic to me, since you're welcome to pivot whenever you like in games with me, but I am interested understanding the rule in case any one decides to go all "rules-lawerly" on me.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2010, 18:27
Number 2, for sure. Pivot freely, then pick target.

SiNNiX
11-10-2010, 23:29
Finally. Pivoting in the Movement phase was such a stupid change.

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 00:31
New rulebook errata changes the text to say that cannons pivot in the shooting phase.

Right, does that put this matter to rest?

No, stone throwers are still not required to place the template within their front arc, hence there is no need to pivot.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 02:14
So? True of cannons too although I'm pretty sure that's the intent. You still have to pivot to face your target. Pivoting isn't optional and stone throwers have to do it too.

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 20:23
True, a stone thrower must pivot, but not a Hellcannon. It is still a Monster and not a war machine.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 20:28
A stone thrower pivots when it fires in the shooting phase. The FAQ confirms that this happens in the shooting phase. So a hellcannon fires as if it were a stone thrower, ergo it pivots. Haven't we been over all this before?

Eltharil
12-10-2010, 20:40
A stone thrower pivots when it fires in the shooting phase. The FAQ confirms that this happens in the shooting phase. So a hellcannon fires as if it were a stone thrower, ergo it pivots. Haven't we been over all this before?

I agree with u. I got the french brb, so i don't know how it is exactly said in the english brb but take a look at the last paragraph "shooting with a warmachine" p109. It is said that pivot doesn't count as a mouvement at all.

So this free pivot is a special rule when u shoot with a warmachine.
Catapult is a warmachine, so catapult got the special shooting rule "free pivot".
Hellcanon shoot as a catapult, so hellcanon got the special shooting rule "free pivot".

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 20:41
A stone thrower pivots when it fires in the shooting phase. The FAQ confirms that this happens in the shooting phase. So a hellcannon fires as if it were a stone thrower, ergo it pivots. Haven't we been over all this before?

A stone thrower pivots in the shooting phase "before you fire the war machine" pg 109. A Hellcannon is not a war machine and does not behave like a stone thrower before it shoots; only when it shoots. A Hellcannon is still a Monster.

Eltharil
12-10-2010, 20:46
A stone thrower pivots in the shooting phase "before you fire the war machine" pg 109. A Hellcannon is not a war machine and does not behave like a stone thrower before it shoots; only when it shoots. A Hellcannon is still a Monster.

I see your point of view. But this section is called something like "shooting with a warmachine" (it's not inside the parapgraph called "movement"). Does this means pivot is a shooting rule and not a special movement rule?

decker_cky
12-10-2010, 20:47
The pivot is part of shooting like a stone thrower (which shoots like a war machine). All of those war machine rules are part of the stone thrower rules.

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 20:49
I see your point of view. But this section is called something like "shooting with a warmachine" (it's not inside the parapgraph called "movement"). Does this means pivot is a shooting rule and not a special movement rule?
I don't know how to properly label the rule, but a Hellcannon is still a Monster according the BRB. I'm happy to house rule it and allow it to pivot, but by rule, it may not.

Eltharil
12-10-2010, 20:49
The pivot is part of shooting like a stone thrower (which shoots like a war machine). All of those war machine rules are part of the stone thrower rules.

Exactly, so i guess pivot applies to hellcanon.

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 20:50
The pivot is part of shooting like a stone thrower (which shoots like a war machine). All of those war machine rules are part of the stone thrower rules.

It says "before you fire the war machine".:wtf:

Eltharil
12-10-2010, 20:53
I don't know how to properly label the rule, but a Hellcannon is still a Monster according the BRB. I'm happy to house rule it and allow it to pivot, but by rule, it may not.

Yup hellcanon is a monster, not a warmachine. But shoots like a catapult so hellcanon follows warmachine shooting rules and only shooting rules. It fights, move, etc like a monster.

That's a bit special, but that's what special rules are made of:D

Eltharil
12-10-2010, 20:55
It says "before you fire the war machine".:wtf:

doesn't change the fact it's in the shooting rules. Am i right?

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 21:09
It says "before you fire the war machine".:wtf:

Understood, but it is still part of the shooting procedure. Presumably, it means "before you resolve the shot," the distinction being irrelevant for war machines.

Yellow Commissar
12-10-2010, 22:05
doesn't change the fact it's in the shooting rules. Am i right?
There are many rules that are in the shooting rules that do not apply to the Hellcannon.

The Hellcannon is a Monster, it is not a war machine. Nothing anywhere in the rules says to use war machine rules for it. Even the "Shooting with War Machines" section that everyone insists apply to the Hellcannon state "Each type of war machine weapon is fired differently, as described in its own set of rules".

The Firing a Stone Thrower rules (which are the only ones we are directed to utilize for the Hellcannon) provide no provision for pivoting, nor do they require any. Stone Throwers are only required to place the small round template "anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range" and a few other restrictions for placing the template over friendly or enemy models that don't really apply to this discussion.

Line of Sight (pg 10) has no provision for front arcs only, and if it did, war machines would often not be able to fire at all as they must choose thier target before they pivot towards it. What provision is there, interestingly enough is that "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace and unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body of the target". Exactly how this applies when a stone thrower or cannon targets a point on the ground, I am not sure.

Therefore, by rule, there is no provision for a Hellcannon to pivot in the shooting phase, nor is there any need to have one.

That said, I doubt that is how I will choose to House Rule them. ;)

Synnister
12-10-2010, 23:25
There are many rules that are in the shooting rules that do not apply to the Hellcannon.

The Hellcannon is a Monster, it is not a war machine. Nothing anywhere in the rules says to use war machine rules for it. Even the "Shooting with War Machines" section that everyone insists apply to the Hellcannon state "Each type of war machine weapon is fired differently, as described in its own set of rules".

The Firing a Stone Thrower rules (which are the only ones we are directed to utilize for the Hellcannon) provide no provision for pivoting, nor do they require any. Stone Throwers are only required to place the small round template "anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range" and a few other restrictions for placing the template over friendly or enemy models that don't really apply to this discussion.

Line of Sight (pg 10) has no provision for front arcs only, and if it did, war machines would often not be able to fire at all as they must choose thier target before they pivot towards it. What provision is there, interestingly enough is that "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace and unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body of the target". Exactly how this applies when a stone thrower or cannon targets a point on the ground, I am not sure.

Therefore, by rule, there is no provision for a Hellcannon to pivot in the shooting phase, nor is there any need to have one.

That said, I doubt that is how I will choose to House Rule them. ;)

Firstly, the rule for 'Shooting a War Machine' specifically uses the term 'war machine weapon' which as I'm sure you're aware not the same as saying oh I don't know, maybe warmachine. When you fire a war machine weapon, (which guess what? a stone thrower is a warmachine with a war machine weapon on it) you follow the rules for shooting a .... war machine. Honestly dude this is not rocket science. Pretty simple stuff to follow.

Chris_
13-10-2010, 00:09
I agree with "shooting as a stone thrower" certainly includes all the rules for stone throwers shooting, that is to say it has to pivot before, there is nothing optional about this.

Oh, and guys, be aware that the rules for placing the template have been FAQ:ed. You are not allowed to place it in a way that lets you get unfair benefits (high up in the air or something like that) and now you only need to be able to see the point where you are aiming at, i.e. the model under the central hole.

Yellow Commissar
13-10-2010, 01:36
Firstly, the rule for 'Shooting a War Machine' specifically uses the term 'war machine weapon' which as I'm sure you're aware not the same as saying oh I don't know, maybe warmachine. When you fire a war machine weapon, (which guess what? a stone thrower is a warmachine with a war machine weapon on it) you follow the rules for shooting a .... war machine. Honestly dude this is not rocket science. Pretty simple stuff to follow.
Dude, guess what ,rocket scientist, we are not discussing stone throwers, the topic is the Hellcannon. The Hellcannon only fires as a stone thrower, it does not fire as a war machine.

The war machine rules are not part of the stone thrower rules. The stone thrower rules are found on pages 84 and 85 in the chapter titled.....ready, War Machines! The stone thrower rules are part of the war machine rules, not the other way around.

A stone thrower that is a war machine uses the rules on pages 109, 114 and 115. A monster that fires as a stone thrower uses the rules for stone throwers on pages 114 and 115. Monsters (pg 85) and War Machines (pg 87) are two distinctly different troop types as distinguished in the Troop Types chapter beginning on page 80. The War Machines chapter beginning on page 80 only applies to war machines unless otherwise specified.

A Hellcannon fires like a stone thrower as laid out on pages 114, and 115. Nowhere are we instructed to treat it like a war machine for any reason. Page 109 does not apply.

Chris_
13-10-2010, 01:47
Dude, guess what ,rocket scientist, we are not discussing stone throwers, the topic is the Hellcannon. The Hellcannon only fires as a stone thrower, it does not fire as a war machine.

The war machine rules are not part of the stone thrower rules. The stone thrower rules are found on pages 84 and 85 in the chapter titled.....ready, War Machines! The stone thrower rules are part of the war machine rules, not the other way around.

A stone thrower that is a war machine uses the rules on pages 109, 114 and 115. A monster that fires as a stone thrower uses the rules for stone throwers on pages 114 and 115. Monsters (pg 85) and War Machines (pg 87) are two distinctly different troop types as distinguished in the Troop Types chapter beginning on page 80. The War Machines chapter beginning on page 80 only applies to war machines unless otherwise specified.

A Hellcannon fires like a stone thrower as laid out on pages 114, and 115. Nowhere are we instructed to treat it like a war machine for any reason. Page 109 does not apply.How does a stone thrower shoot? Does it not pivot when it shoots?

You just can't ignore parts about the way a stone thrower shoots just because they are not stated on those pages you listed. There is no restriction on pages you are referring to. It clearly says that it fires as a stone thrower. You just can't pick and choose the rules you want to use.

A stone thrower shoots as such:

1. Pivot to face the target
2. Place the template with model under central hole in LoS
3. Roll for Scatter
4. Work out hits

Does not the stone thrower do all this when it is shooting? No where does it state that it only shoots with the specific rules on page 114 and 115. You can not shoot as a stone thrower without shooting as a war machine, if a stone thrower shoots as a war machine, then something that shoots as stone thrower also shoots as a war machine.

Yellow Commissar
13-10-2010, 02:12
How does a stone thrower shoot? Does it not pivot when it shoots?
No it does not.

War machines pivot "before you fire the war machine" ( pg109).

"To fire a stone thrower, take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range." The rules then go on about friendly and enemy models, then into scatter, damage, and so forth.

The pivoting rule you continue to quote applies to war machines. It is in the chapter titled "WAR MACHINES' under the section "Shooting with War Machines". The Hellcannon is quite clearly a monster as noted on page 489. Monsters have no shooting rules in the advanced rules to supercede the shooting rules laid out in the "SHOOTING" chapter beginning on page 38. Monsters are nowhere allowed to pivot when shooting in this chapter. The only time they may, is during the movement phase. Pivoting, by definition, is moving. The Hellcannon is not allowed, or required, to move like a war machine, either in the movement phase or in the shooting phase. It only fires like a stone thrower, it doesn't move like one.

It appears to me, that you are the one who is picking and choosing which rules to apply here. I am merely restating what the rules actually say. It may not be the best way to play it, nor the way it may be errated to say, but it is what the rules state at this time.

Chris_
13-10-2010, 02:25
No it does not.

War machines pivot "before you fire the war machine" ( pg109).

"To fire a stone thrower, take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range." The rules then go on about friendly and enemy models, then into scatter, damage, and so forth.

The pivoting rule you continue to quote applies to war machines. It is in the chapter titled "WAR MACHINES' under the section "Shooting with War Machines". The Hellcannon is quite clearly a monster as noted on page 489. Monsters have no shooting rules in the advanced rules to supercede the shooting rules laid out in the "SHOOTING" chapter beginning on page 38. Monsters are nowhere allowed to pivot when shooting in this chapter. The only time they may, is during the movement phase. Pivoting, by definition, is moving. The Hellcannon is not allowed, or required, to move like a war machine, either in the movement phase or in the shooting phase. It only fires like a stone thrower, it doesn't move like one.

It appears to me, that you are the one who is picking and choosing which rules to apply here. I am merely restating what the rules actually say. It may not be the best way to play it, nor the way it may be errated to say, but it is what the rules state at this time.Seriously dude. It is explained under "Shooting with war machines", just because it says "before you fire" doesn't mean it isn't included in "SHOOTING with war machines". See the FAQ for WoC, there are 2 questions answered there (means there are rules for these already but need to be clarified), these questions are answered because a Hellcannons shoots as a stone thrower which shoots as a warmachine thus being subject to the special rules stated in "Shooting with war machines", i.e. Move or Fire and Slow to Fire. This is not an Errata (a mistake) but a question for clarification, i.e. a Hellcannon also follows the rules for "Shooting with war machines", if not there would be no reason not to make an Errata to add these two special rules to the Hellcannon's profile.

Yellow Commissar
13-10-2010, 02:39
"Unless specified otherwise, all war machine weapons have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules." page 109. Agreed, this would apply. I missed this before, a stone thrower is a "war machine weapon". A Hellcannon, though is still a Monster and not a "war machine". It is a Monster with a war machine weapon.

Again, I'm not arguing that it would be a bad way to play it, I'm just saying it is not what the rules say.

Chris_
13-10-2010, 02:45
Let the easter egg hunt start...

SiNNiX
13-10-2010, 04:10
Earl, grab a shovel and help me bury this thread.

Pivot your Hellcannons in the Shooting Phase before you fire, please. Thanks, WOC players.

Eltharil
13-10-2010, 06:46
p109 are global rules for all warmachines, then you got special rules for specific warmachines.

For shooting with a catapult, you must respect global rules for warmachines and catapult's special rules.

If Hellcanon shoots like a catapult, global rules and catapult's special rules must be respected.

This is clear, Hellcanon got a free pivot in the shooting phase before you fire with it.

Saying something else is a pure non sense.

SiNNiX
13-10-2010, 06:48
Saying something else is a pure non sense.

You just had to go make that comment! These are the comments that fuel the opposition back up and make them want to keep arguing, even if they were starting to see where they were at fault!

The blood is on your hands now, Eltharil. :)

Eltharil
13-10-2010, 10:26
You just had to go make that comment! These are the comments that fuel the opposition back up and make them want to keep arguing, even if they were starting to see where they were at fault!

The blood is on your hands now, Eltharil. :)

The rule is clear as white is white and not black. If opposition blinds itself with irrelevant argumentation, i'm ok with this:o
But till now, catapult's shooting rules includes warmachine's shooting rules.
So if hellcanon shoots like a catapult, catapult's shooting rules and warmachine's shooting rules are in application.

How can it be in an other way?