PDA

View Full Version : Tooling Warriors for Ard Boyz



thisisntnotjt
28-09-2010, 17:03
The Good: I made Finals!

The Bad: The competition at my regionals was extremely tough, and I saw a preview of some of the sick armies that I'm going to have a really hard time dealing with.

As such, I implore you to please, help me figure out how to beat these monsters. I know it's not all that bad, but there are certain aspects to these key lists that I'm nervous about as a WoC player.

1. Skaven:
--13th Spell. Yes, it's somewhat difficult to cast, though power scrolls are a real threat. I do like to take the puppet, with which I can get my revenge, but I would rather like to keep my rock hard warriors from turning into little rat-things.

--Abominations. The only answer I can think of here is to spam a couple of Tzeentch sorcerers with Flickering fire, then blast him with the L.4s Gateway. This would work, but all the pieces have to fit.

2. High Elves:
--Teclis. Too much magic going on, not enough miscasting. Fortunately, besides that, I shouldn't have too many problems.

3. Dark Elves:
-- Again, too much magic. Hydras I'm not so worried about, since I've been consistently giving them hell with chariots and khorne warriors.

4. Lizardmen:
--Sigh... too much magic, not enough miscasts. Stegadons can be a problem too, but chariots are a great monsters killer en masse.

5. Daemons:
-- Magic and Blood Thirsters, oh my. Blood crushers are nasty too, I hear, though I've not played against them.

6. Dwarves:
-- Warmachines, though I actually tend to play a bit defensive and usually field 2 hellcannons. Unfortunately, I don't have much experience against these guys.

7. Warriors of Chaos
-- I played another Warriors army for round three, and it wasn't terribly fun. I just need general tactics against someone who also has the puppet, or worse, maxed out chosen with a sick 3+ ward save! I don't care for the tactic usually, but maybe I should? Dunno.

Perhaps we can start with general counters to each of these problems individually, then gradually put a list together. Thanks in advance!

Tower_Of_The_Stars
28-09-2010, 17:26
I think that analysis like this of a problem is interesting and worthwhile; it certainly makes for a better read than lots of the stuff on Warseer. I don't play Warriors of Chaos personally, though I feel compelled to reply regardless and will give advice where my knowledge allows, namely with Skaven.

With regards to Skaven:

The 13th spell: If you are taking Infernal Puppet (and you do by the sounds of it) then I wouldn't be too worried about this spell unless you are fielding Chosen. If he casts it through a Power Scroll then you are looking at, on average, 14 dead Warriors which isn't a bad trade off considering the damage the miscast coupled with Infernal Puppet is going to inflict on the Grey Seer and the unit he is in. Perhaps it is worth trying to fit a Dispel Scroll into your list as it would further counter the 13th spell as well as other magical problems mentioned later in your post?

The (overhyped) HPA: Hitting it with spells from Tzeentch could work. I would recommend upgrading a unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame for a meagre number of points and hitting the HPA with that also.

As an aside, I am surprised Empire hasn't been giving you problems, though you went to the tournament, not me!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
28-09-2010, 17:55
Yep there isn't much way to stop the Dreaded Thirteenth, but one way I just thought of is to have a death wizard zap him a bit, so you might at least put him off casting it as he likely to miscast, especially if you have puppet.

For aboms and hydras, khorne halberd warriors with the flaming banner and chariots should happily deal with them.

For all those armies with a lot of magic, you just have to try and weather it really, maybe sprinkle some magic resistance about, apart from that just try to reach the enemy quickly and hack them down.

For the Thirster, one of the best ways is to take a lvl 4 with lore of shadow (he has been performing better than my Tzeentch one) as it has 3 spells which really hurt the thirster: taking d3 off its S (doesn't do much damage then), taking d3 off its T (sure is a lot easier to kill) and using mind razor on a unit with plenty of attacks (he may well kill a few, but the attacks back should certainly put a dent in him).

Hope this helps, and well done on getting this far.

Gooner
28-09-2010, 18:16
IMO it is worth your points to use the flaming attacks banner.
- you can kill HPA and hydras easily with that unit
- and if you get charged by cavalry they cause fear, that is never a bad thing.

For the magic taking those items is a good step as magic resistance doesnt work against some spells. I think you might just have to eat one spell, or you can take a unit of knights and charge his grey seer unit right off the bat and as long as u have no one who HAS to challenge then just kill his grey seer, 13th cant be cast at cavalry.

the secret with the big spells and WoC is that they might get off but thats only happening once. This coupled with some magic resistance items will help alot when it comes to magic. and lastly the best defense against magic is getting into combat and hacking up your opponent so he cant cast at you.

dwarfs, just get into combat weather the storm you have to hope he doesnt get really lucky, but dwarves are overrated in the combat phase because of the lack of attacks they can make.

So in the end I would say playing a defesive WoC list probably isnt th best idea when your units are some of the strongest killers in the game.

Good luck in the finals

thisisntnotjt
28-09-2010, 20:20
Derp... I can't believe I didn't think of the flaming banner. That actually clears up about half my problems!

@Tower: I beat out the local Empire guy in the locals, so he didn't go to regionals, but he kind of sucks. In that case, is dealing with the Empire about the same as dwarves?

thisisntnotjt
28-09-2010, 21:29
Okay, so maybe not half, but let's start putting a list together, shall we? First, I'll post the list I won the regional game with, and we can build from there.

Lords: 740 Points, 24.6%

[325] Chaos Lord
Tzeentch
Enchanted Shield
Soporific Musk
Sword of Anti-Heroes
Helm of Many Eyes
Collar of Khorne

[415] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet
Sword of Might
Third Eye of Tzeentch

Heroes: 265, 8.8%

[270] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
Shield
Doom Totem
Word of Agony

Core: 982 Points, 32.7%

[391] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Banner of Rage

[391] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Warbanner


[200] 30 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command


Special: 600, 20%

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne



Rare: 410 Points, 13.6%

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon

Total: 2997 points, 99.9%

The Lord and BSB usually went in the Tzeentch unit, and the Sorc Lord usually (not always) went with the marauders.

Now, I'm already noticing a couple changes based on what you guys said. The warbanner can easily be switched out for Banner of Eternal Flame. I can also probably nix the Doom Totem, since it didn't really do much for me. Then again, I didn't play any Helves, Dorfs, or empire. Any thoughts on this? The hellcannon/doom totem combo has worked for me before, but the armies tended to be a bit weaker.

Where else can we expand on this?

Lazarian
28-09-2010, 21:37
only think id possibly say is that for the point your fighty lord choice can be turned into a whole other unit with far more capability to beat skulls in. Also the +1 save in shields on the halberd warriors isnt really that reliable, id just go with the blasted standard if there was a certain worry in that regard.

Dropping the magic banner on your BSB to the blasted standard would solve some problem, plus give you more defense, which your going to need in later rounds since more than a few gunlines are coming your way.

Finally id find a way to fit in some doggies, they help as redirectors, screeners and warmachine choppers, they are cheap but do a good deal of grunt work.

thisisntnotjt
28-09-2010, 21:49
I see what you're saying here. The intent of the Lord is really to take out characters, really, before they can take out my unit. He's also good for scenarios since it'll be really tough for my opponent to take him down.

Tzeentch on the warriors was originally there to augment the magic defense. This is why I gave them the halberds anyways, in addition to the all important banner of Rage.

I found that magic missiles are not terribly common, so I could invest the Collar points somewhere else and get the blasted standard.

Dogs are a good idea, I hadn't thought of that. Probably because I haven't been fighting a lot of warmachines.

Thought I just had for the Lord: What if I just gave him the sword of anti-heroes, the Helm, and the Talisman of protection, and give the Sorc Lord the Armor of Destiny?

thisisntnotjt
28-09-2010, 22:03
Alright, let's take a look at this one:

[330] Chaos Lord
Tzeentch
shield
Talisman of Protection
Sword of Anti-Heroes
Helm of Many Eyes

[400] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Armour of Destiny
Infernal Puppet
Third Eye of Tzeentch

Heroes: 230

[270] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
Shield
Blasted Standard
Word of Agony

Core: 1027 Points

[391] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Banner of Rage

[367] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame


[200] 30 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command

[30] 5 Warhounds

[30] 5 Warhounds


Special: 600

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

Rare: 410 Points

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon

Bauknefer
29-09-2010, 04:49
I dont know how long your bsb will last really. He is very squishy for WoC. (emphasis on WoC) now i know a 3+ 5++ in combat sounds good but ive tried it. I now use Enchanted Shield and Talisman of Endurance. 2+ 4++ and he can catch a cannon ball maybe. And with the snipe magics it helps to have a flat ward save.

Now for the lord why not drop the sword of anti-heroes and the shield and pick up a halberd? It makes him asf str6 5a against everything not just characters. drops your armor save by one but when your armor is only 3+ its not a big deal against small stuff and for the big stuff chances are there will be no armor. Rely on the 3++ ward.

Btw i really like the chariot spam =D.

I am glad you got this far and i wish you the best of luck and Please take anything i say with a grain of salt it is all just my opinion.

geldedgoat
29-09-2010, 08:02
Honestly, I would drop the fighty lord in favor of another sorcerer, though unmarked. The rulebook lores are very powerful, and giving him the Blood of Tzeentch and possibly Conjoined Homunculus would give you a very reliable source of magic.

Also, how do you use your chariots to make them effective? I was under the impression that chariots got much less powerful in relation to everything else this edition, but I never bothered to try them myself.

thisisntnotjt
29-09-2010, 08:26
It's all about synergy, really. Combo charging just about anything is so overwhelming for most units that they have a tough time recovering. Even if they beat my chariots, I have a really good shot of fleeing, passing morale, and coming back for another go (albeit without frenzy, but that's not so bad.) They really survivable in close combat, as well. The enemy will be hard pressed to put enough damage on a single one to destroy it, all because of the smaller base size compared to, say, knights. They also work well tactically as enemies tend to ignore them in the shooting and magic phase, due to more tempting targets like the hellcannons and warriors, giving the chariots ample opportunity to meander up the board and take what position they will. It's amazing how easy this is sometimes.

For the Round 3 of the regionals, I played another warrior player. In the scenario we were to leave two units off the table in reserves to come on the board turn 3 on players board edge or sides. I left off two chariots and he left off his tezeentch chosen and warshrine, presumable to avoid hellcannon fire. He was so concerned about my hellcannons that he kept trying to counter mine with his. This let my other two chariots leisurely guard the flank of my warriors as they moved up, in case he flanked with this reserves. Instead he opted to bring them on his table edge, allowing me space to easily set-up a quad charge after my flanking chariots plowed through his hellcannon. The chosen were down to 15, with +1 T and Armor, but were killed to the man by the four chariots.

I'm VERY interested in talking about this second sorcerer idea. If anyone could elaborate on the possible benefits to taking 2 L.4's, or whichever combo you're thinking of, I'm all ears. Is magic really consistent enough for this to be worth it?

@ Bauknefer: The main reason is that the sword of anti-heroes is extremely points efficient. This is my workhorse unit, with the lord there to protect my meager 4+armor 6++ in combat from big mean characters. I know it's redundant to quote the rules here, but +1s and +1 attack for each character in base contact with the unit? Incredible! In that same warrior game I charged a house in which he had parked a tzeentch unit with his Lord and BSB. He was quite surprised when I challenged and pulled out 8 strength 7. Thanks to that and ASF and the rerolls associated with it, I did 2 wounds to him, even with his 3++! Hence while I'm hesitant to take him out of the list, though like I said above, if magic really is that much better, I'll make the change. I might be a bit tight on points though.

Also, thanks for the comment on the chariot spam. I think it will be quite unexpected.

Lazarian
29-09-2010, 08:50
It's all about synergy, really. Combo charging just about anything is so overwhelming for most units that they have a tough time recovering. Even if they beat my chariots, I have a really good shot of fleeing, passing morale, and coming back for another go (albeit without frenzy, but that's not so bad.) They really survivable in close combat, as well. The enemy will be hard pressed to put enough damage on a single one to destroy it, all because of the smaller base size compared to, say, knights. They also work well tactically as enemies tend to ignore them in the shooting and magic phase, due to more tempting targets like the hellcannons and warriors, giving the chariots ample opportunity to meander up the board and take what position they will. It's amazing how easy this is sometimes.

For the Round 3 of the regionals, I played another warrior player. In the scenario we were to leave two units off the table in reserves to come on the board turn 3 on players board edge or sides. I left off two chariots and he left off his tezeentch chosen and warshrine, presumable to avoid hellcannon fire. He was so concerned about my hellcannons that he kept trying to counter mine with his. This let my other two chariots leisurely guard the flank of my warriors as they moved up, in case he flanked with this reserves. Instead he opted to bring them on his table edge, allowing me space to easily set-up a quad charge after my flanking chariots plowed through his hellcannon. The chosen were down to 15, with +1 T and Armor, but were killed to the man by the four chariots.

I'm VERY interested in talking about this second sorcerer idea. If anyone could elaborate on the possible benefits to taking 2 L.4's, or whichever combo you're thinking of, I'm all ears. Is magic really consistent enough for this to be worth it?

@ Bauknefer: The main reason is that the sword of anti-heroes is extremely points efficient. This is my workhorse unit, with the lord there to protect my meager 4+armor 6++ in combat from big mean characters. I know it's redundant to quote the rules here, but +1s and +1 attack for each character in base contact with the unit? Incredible! In that same warrior game I charged a house in which he had parked a tzeentch unit with his Lord and BSB. He was quite surprised when I challenged and pulled out 8 strength 7. Thanks to that and ASF and the rerolls associated with it, I did 2 wounds to him, even with his 3++! Hence while I'm hesitant to take him out of the list, though like I said above, if magic really is that much better, I'll make the change. I might be a bit tight on points though.

Also, thanks for the comment on the chariot spam. I think it will be quite unexpected.

The primary reason to take a second sorcerer comes down to the following benefits

1) If you give him third eye he can snipe some truly extraordinary spells from various foes from time to time. Ive played with third eye exclusively in 8th and ive never given it to my main guy, ive always given him blood/conjoined since i know for certain each round there are at least two of his spells i need off if possible (gateway and pandemonium) the lesser mage frees this up so spare dice can be used by him.

2) If you take him with death or shadow and get the 6th spell he is great fodder for tossing 6 dice and have a go at it, especially late game. Mine has now gotten to get off Waagh twice from the orc list, subesquently just before I won the game. He can clock in at less than 200 points and there will be a time or two a game you wont mind funneling a miscast his way which brings to point 3

3) Powerscroll- he can afford to stock this and you can guarantee once a game something is going through, even if its the basic spell of that lore, the lores he can take plus what he can plunder with third eye will ensure something is up.

4) Challenge buddy- throw him at something ridiculous if your afraid that someone just hit you with badness, your unit should be better than theres and you insure its not being beat on. Its great for solo models as well since your static res will typically beat out overkill on the challenge.

As far as sword of anti heroes, in most cases a halberd will be just as fine and it frees up the points elsewhere, though again i wouldnt take a fighty lord, just not a good deal of return on an investment, especially since he can be another Khorne halberd unit of warriors who will take out more than him.

Althwen
29-09-2010, 09:44
As I'm often more worried about magic hitting my warriors than missile fire (My gaming group doesn't include any big guns like Empire or Dwarfs) I tend to equip my BSB with nothing more but the fury of the blood God-gift. MR(2) is really nice on a Tzeentch warrior block. and he has a 2++ against most sniping spells this way.

thisisntnotjt
29-09-2010, 13:18
Okay, I'm convinced enough to test out a few games with it. Here's what we have so far:

[370] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet


Heroes: 450

[180] Sorcerer
Power Scroll
Third Eye

[270] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
Shield
Blasted Standard
Word of Agony

Core: 1027 Points

[391] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Banner of Rage

[367] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame


[200] 30 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command

[30] 5 Warhounds

[30] 5 Warhounds


Special: 600

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

Rare: 410 Points

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon


I'm sitting at 2817, so we've got a little wiggle room for other options. Any suggestions?

Althwen
29-09-2010, 13:43
By the way, and I may be completely wrong here, but aren't Exalted heroes only allowed to take 25 pts worth of Daemonic gifts? And isn't Word of Agony 40 pts?

thisisntnotjt
29-09-2010, 17:01
Ooo, I think you're right. Oh well, good thing I never actually needed to use it! Consider that gone for now.

thisisntnotjt
30-09-2010, 00:02
Newest list: Trying to cover all my bases here. For a little extra pop, I added another little sorcerer who can throw out 1 dice scorching rays without taking from the pool, forcing the opponent to either take some hits or waste 2 dispel dice for fear of failing on a 1 or 2.

I wasn't sure what to do with the extra points, so I just beefed up the khorne unit a bit, since they'll likely get singled out quicker.

[370] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet

[185] Sorcerer
L.2
Power Scroll
Third Eye
Charmed Shield (protection against unforeseen miscast dangers)

[270] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
Shield
Blasted Standard

[145] Sorcerer
Tzeentch
Power Familiar
Enchanted Shield

[391] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Banner of Rage

[444] 22 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame

[200] 30 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command

[30] 5 Warhounds

[30] 5 Warhounds

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon

Total: 2995

Now then, since this thread is in the tactics section, let's talk about tactics!

Skaven: I feel much more confident about these guys now. The Aboms are no longer the threats they were, with the fire wielding warriors or flickering fire + gateway. My main unit is now more protected to march through the warmachines and get into combat with bells or stormvermin horde with Shadow Hexes dumped on them.

Lizardmen: Similar situation, I now have many more options with magic in order to try and take down the all important Toad.

Empire: Still not totally sure how to deal with these guys. The hellcannons and magic will surely do damage, but besides that I'll just have to march up on him.

Dwarves: ditto

High Elves: Again, I'm a little nervous here. I realized that one of Teclis' main defenses is the hide behind a wall of dueling heroes, but in the past I can take out most heroes with combo charging chariots and directing attacks (hence the khorne). Besides that I'll have to be clever, possibly even playing points denial while trying to take out his superlative units.

Dark Elves: Hydras have nothing on me, now. I'm still a bit nervous about magic, but I hope to punish any miscasts with extreme prejudice, especially since they like to throw tons of dice.

Daemons: Hexes will help against greater daemons. Not sure about everything else...

Any ideas on these?

geldedgoat
30-09-2010, 02:47
[370] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet

[185] Sorcerer
L.2
Power Scroll
Third Eye
Charmed Shield (protection against unforeseen miscast dangers)

[270] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
Shield
Blasted Standard

[145] Sorcerer
Tzeentch
Power Familiar
Enchanted Shield

I would suggest changing these a bit.

Consider combining the two sorcerers into one sorcerer lord. An unmarked level 4 with Talisman of Preservation and Blood of Tzeentch is a resilient and reliable caster. Give him lore of death and lead your magic phase with him, and any damage he causes will help power your other caster. He can also get a couple nice hex spells, which you seem to be interested in. IMO, that would be much better than the level 1 / level 2 combination you've got above and for only 15 points more. Give him Conjoined Homunculus and he gets even better.

For the Exalted, I would really urge you to not take a magic banner with him. Collar of Khorne, Ironcurse Icon, and Sword of Swift Slaying would be much better choices for him. In the Tzeentch unit he's then conferring a 4++ wardsave against magic and 5++ against warmachines, and his ASF, rerollable hits and 5++ wardsave make him a much better closecombat character. Give him Stream of Corruption and he will rock almost any challenge.

For your Tzeentch lord, keep in mind that the lore of Tzeentch won't always give you useful spells, so the Third Eye of Tzeentch I think makes a good deal of sense on this guy. And with Blood of Tzeentch on the other lord, give your Tzeentch guy the Charmed Shield (on a side note, I have a strong feeling this item will be FAQ'd to not work with miscasts).

=====

Oh, and thanks for the tips on using chariots. I'll try to work a couple into my list. :)

Dreadgrass
30-09-2010, 03:07
I'd like to suggest swapping the puppet onto a "minor" mage and giving Blood of Tzeentch to your main caster for both miscast protection and bumping up that casting roll every now and then. My Lord's never miscasted thanks to this lovely little item!

No powerscroll! nonononononononononono........ wait Ardboyz? I retract this statement.

A BSB build I'm loving so far: Tzeentch, shield, Book of Secrets, the 4+ (3+ with Tzeentch) one use ward and Dragonhelm.

Give him the signature shadow spell and throw 1 dice at it every turn. +1 to cast from the mark means he's got a 2/3 chance of getting it off and won't ever miscast (where the book would really screw you on a BSB). Add to all this a 2+ save, a 5+ parry, a 1 use 3+ ward, a 2+ flaming ward and a 6+ against everything else and he's survivable and useful!

Do you ever find your Khorne units lacking in protection? Have you considered the Tzeentch Hand weapon and shield route for insane staying power without the pointsink that is the chosen Dstar?

Mindshred
30-09-2010, 05:52
For the Exalted, I would really urge you to not take a magic banner with him. Collar of Khorne, Ironcurse Icon, and Sword of Swift Slaying would be much better choices for him.

I don't think you can fit an Ironcurse Icon onto him if he's already got the Collar and Sword.

I run mine with both items and Stream of Corruption, and it makes him very resilient without cutting into his killing power. Definately a good build.

geldedgoat
30-09-2010, 06:05
Ah, you're absolutely right. Stupid numbers, always causing problems. :shifty:

I still say, though, that the magic items available for the Exalted are much more important than any magic banner he could wield.

thisisntnotjt
30-09-2010, 13:00
Ok, this all sounds really good. I have to opportunity to play about 4 games from here to saturday, so I'm going to try all of these combinations to get a feel for them.

On the Khorne vs Tzeentch warrior thing, I find that having the dual rolls really gives me an advantage when the boots are put to the dirt. It's true that the Tz-warriors do stick around longer, but I find that typically I can maneuver as such to distract my opponents. Even if they do take some hits, they are still a bloody chainsaw. Game 2 for the regionals, the unit only had 7 left due to 13th spell, got charged by a horde of clanrats 30 strong, and continued for 3 rounds of combat before a chariot flanked them, tipping the scales and winning me those points, the banner, and keeping all of mine!

So, I'm going to go ahead and write up these alternate lists and see what happens!

KHolbourn
30-09-2010, 14:00
Have you considered dropping that "bonus" mage and a 1 of the chariots and converting that into either:-

a) marauder horse x3/4 as with their vanguard move they can be all over the flank/ warmachines on turn 1.

b) Unit of Knights. No matter what people say about cavalry. they are still great at chopping units to bits. They just take 2 rounds rather 1 due to steadfast and also will attract a heinous amount of firepower for comparatively little cost.

thisisntnotjt
01-10-2010, 13:08
Update: I played a game using the 3 mages and it turned out poorly, even though I won. The Lv. 1 kept rolling twos, but more importantly I immediately saw that my spell selection with the L.2 was lacking.

What do you guys suggest for a lore for the L.4 version? Death or Shadow?

@KHolburn: I don't think the knights have any place in a high competitive environment like this. It's true that they're quick, but are expensive and easily succumb to most fire power.

With the chariots I have the element of surprise. Very few have seen this strategy. Most people have a negative opinion of them right now, mostly do the hype of 8th ed rules but, as I've said before, Combo charging is devastating, especially with our all powerful chaos chariots of khorne, the strongest in the game (even if you do pay out the ass for them).

Thruster
02-10-2010, 10:04
I really like your list so far. Yeah, 3 mages doesn't look good though.

As for your Lv4, I think Tzeentch is already a powerful lore and very easy to cast. Though Death you can get game-breaking Purple Sun, you will need to go close to fire other short-range sniping spells. Shadow do have very nice hex, and its big spell gives a very good buff. I think Tzeentch already have the best of both worlds for cheaper casting though.

The only thing that I am curious so far, though, is about dropping halberd from your Tzeentch Warrior. I think that hw/shield combo is very very nice for tz warrior with 3+ 5++ saves compare to with halberd 4+ 6++, and 2 Strength 4 attacks are nothing to laugh at.

Bauknefer
02-10-2010, 13:22
I agree. use tzeench to its strength, anvil. 3+ 5++ saves are amazing for core troops. And honestly i would never use more then 4 levels of magic. average power dice is 7 and normally you will throw 2 dice at something so you can make sure you can keep casting. thats 4 spells and 2 dice a piece.

Now i would also give him third eye so if your opponent rolls with shadow or beasts or life you can take his spells and use them also you can use his spells if you rolled really good for power dice.

Another thing. I would equip the bsb to be very defensive. Everyone will want to take him out. Collar of Khorne and Enchanted shield is a really good option. Im not sure if you can give him the ironcurse icon, not sure if its an enchanted item or talisman. but then you can give the unit the blasted standard and have a really defensive unit that will take a lot of effort to take out.

for the general of your army why not take a Chaos lord on foot give him the dragon helm and Crown of everlasting conquest and fencers blades or (Talisman of Endurance,Mark of Tzeench, armor of silvered steel, halberd( or EHW)) and you can give that last build ASF if you want.

Now thats just how i see it. But a level 4 death caster with a level 2 death caster makes it a sure thing to get that last spell and you can grab a power scroll and watch everone around you **** and moan about it lol. make sure you get the spell on the level 2 and after he blows his wad on the scroll use him like a unit champion or something lol.

thisisntnotjt
02-10-2010, 16:11
Okay, I think now we're getting somewhere. I've got a few games today to test out these lists, but I'm going to go ahead and add this one.

You guys have finally convinced to take the halberds off, but I'm leaving the Rage for now. I think the Iron Curse should save me some grief early game until the Hellcannons take out some of their shooting.

I'll go ahead and try both, but I'm leaning towards shadow need a bit more power in the range department. Pit is also nice for nasties like Slann.

@ Bauknefer: First, I like your defensive BSB. I realized many battle points are bent towards characters and banners, so I need to protect those more.

I understand your point on magic dice, I truly do. But I'm noticing more and more that magic wins games at this level of competition. I can't get just minor victories, I need massacres. In order to do that, I need to be able to cripple a major aspect of my opponents army, finish it off, and sweep the rest off the board. That is my general strategy: Focus Fire.

As for the Fighty Lord, we had just this discussion early. He simply isn't points efficient for what he brings to the table. I will, WILL, use him in any other game. I love him. He's great. But right now I need to go for clinch game winners, even if I have to take a lot of risk. That means magic, and that means I need to have choices.

Thank you for that build, though. It's extremely insightful.

Here's the updated list I'm going to try out today:

[370] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet

[380] Sorcerer Lord
L.4
Power Scroll
Armour of Destiny
Third Eye


[190] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
shield
Dragon Helm
Collar of Khorne
Iron Curse Icon


[376] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Banner of Rage

[376] 18 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame

[200] 30 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command

[36] 6 Warhounds

[30] 5 Warhounds

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon

caddery
02-10-2010, 16:54
Hi this is my first post here but I've been a long time lurker. I've been watching your thread mainly because I'm considering taking WOC to the finals also and have placed in both the previous rounds with them. I really feel that you are making some pretty big mistakes.

1) Your units are far to small and have no sustainability. Your Tzeentch warriors while tough won't be able to deal with any type of attrition unit. That and having the banner of rage on them is a waste of their best asset, their ward save.

2) Your magic won't carry you through in the end. You need about 6 levels of magic and that is about it. WOC are not about magic. They have some of the best combat units in the game and you should be supporting that not trying to make the Magic Phase your win/win.

3) Have you considered other armies that are going to be there. How are you going to deal with a Tower list? Or a Skaven three bell/Furnace list, Or Minotaur horde unit, Or the even the Orc and Goblin Squigs list, 6 Khorne Juggs with the herald and stubborn banner list.

I've been getting 6 to 10 games a week to prep and I can tell you right now that you are setting yourself up to lose. You are not using your strengths of your army. I have to go to work I'll check back later.

thisisntnotjt
02-10-2010, 17:37
@caddery: This is what I've been looking for! Speak up, man! Ok, I need to take the extra level 4 down to a 2, I need to buff up my warriors.

You listed some armies. This type of thing was my original concern. How does one deal with these lists?

What about something more like this?

[370] Sorcerer Lord
Level 4
Tzeentch
Talisman of Protection
Infernal Puppet

[185] Sorcerer
L.2
Charmed Shield
Power Scroll
Third Eye

[190] Exalted Hero
Tzeentch
BSB
shield
Dragon Helm
Collar of Khorne
Other Trickster's Shard

[570] 30 Chaos Warriors w/ Shields
Tzeentch
Full Command
Blasted Standard

[410] 20 Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, Shields
Khorne
Full Command
Banner of Eternal Flame

[185] 27 Chaos Marauders w/ Great Weapons
Khorne
Full Command

[30] 5 Warhounds

[30] 5 Warhounds

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[150] Chaos Chariot
Khorne

[205] Hellcannon

[205] Hellcannon

3k points.

Esco Thomson
04-10-2010, 18:15
3) Have you considered other armies that are going to be there. How are you going to deal with a Tower list? Or a Skaven three bell/Furnace list, Or Minotaur horde unit, Or the even the Orc and Goblin Squigs list, 6 Khorne Juggs with the herald and stubborn banner list.


I agree with most of your thoughts, but I think this point is rather daft.

If by Tower list you meant he folding fortress, then everyone(barring Skaven) is pretty much in the same boat. The Skaven triple Bell/Furnace list is pretty terrible. You won't have much left after shelling out base 940 points just for those three models WITHOUT any items or any units to push them...

Squigs list? Really?

At least the Herald and Stubborn one does hit hard and is fairly hard to shift, but still not all that.

I would wager the big threat of Ardboyz to be Teclis with World Dragon and Fortress. Dwarves should prove to continue to do well with both gun line and modified Thorek lines. Also would expect quite a few rats with varying builds to taste.

Then like all tournaments there will be some weird bonkers lists, though altering your list to deal with Squig lists and such I think will put you in a bad spot.

I rather like your latest list. The only thing I wish you had was more GW Marauders, but the list does look mean.

thisisntnotjt
04-10-2010, 22:09
Thanks for the thoughts, Esco! More marauders might be good... maybe I can take out one of my precious chariots.

Also, what's the tactical situation on the folding fortress and the best way to handle it?

vinny t
05-10-2010, 01:22
Your warriors should have little to no problem annihilating whatever is in it. Or, you could just ignore it. It isnt thaaat amazing of an item. I wouldnt worry about it too much

thisisntnotjt
05-10-2010, 02:20
Shut up, vinny t. You can't even finish your sentences with periods.:mad:

Nice quote in your signature, by the way. Father to self help gurus everywhere!

Also, the Dolphins suck!

Esco Thomson
05-10-2010, 02:54
Your warriors should have little to no problem annihilating whatever is in it. Or, you could just ignore it. It isnt thaaat amazing of an item. I wouldnt worry about it too much

The item isn't that great, it just can be put to some pretty nasty effectiveness with Teclis and a sizable PG bunker inside. With World Dragon and other normal shenanigans it really makes the unit tough to get any points from...

I like the chariot idea, I really do, I just don't think they are really all that. I mean if they are working for you, so be it. I personally see you getting more bang for the buck out of the GW MoK Marauders though. They go down much easier, but you can drop a lot more wounds that will continue to pump out solid strength attacks for a greater period of time.

thisisntnotjt
05-10-2010, 03:03
This is very true, and I've been experimenting with a sort of equilibrium of large blocks of troops, and smaller shock units like the chariots. I'm always afraid of crowding my deployment zone with large units, for some reason.

At the same time, GWMoKMaurs are soooooo points efficient it's silly. Maybe I'll try taking out 2 chariots and adding another unit of maurs and buffing the current one.

Thoughts? I'll see how it works.

thisisntnotjt
13-10-2010, 13:04
I've done several test games under Esco's advice and it has worked splendidly. The list is the same, except that I dropped two chariots for another unit of 40 marauders, plus I bumped the other unit up to 40 (I think one of them is technically 39, I don't have the list in front of me).

These units are such a big threat for so cheap, and I think that there might be a psychological element that's causing my opponents to focus a bit more firepower on them, possibly because they know they can put more wounds on the unit compared to the warriors, which is good in their heads considering their offensive power is actually on par with their said elite counterparts.

The Banner of Eternal Flame saved my ass twice, both against VC players with the regeneration banner. It turns out Grave Guard don't last long against khorne warriors with halberds when they don't have regeneration.

The Tzeentch unit is solid as a freaking rock, as long as I don't have abysmal luck with my armor and parry rolls. They were locked in combat with a giant and a couple chariots for 3 full player turns due to crap rolls on armor and to wound on the giant, who only had one damned wound left at the beginning of the whole ordeal! I made one of the chariots flee from combat res, eventually killed the other, but the giant only died when it started jumping, rolled a 1, and fell over, killing itself. I expected to win the combat in just one turn, but because of the delay my main line suffered terribly. Luckily, my marauders saved the day with two charges that overran into his Lords unit, which was assaulting my tower (we were playing the tower scenario from the book).

Overall I really like this list. A lot. I've got more people lining up willing to help me play test and get experience with it. I think I may start a battle report thread, unless you guys think it would be pertinent to do them here so that we can further discuss in game tactical choices.

Let me know what you think so far. Thanks!

Gaargod
13-10-2010, 13:21
If the folding fortress list comes up (especially lizardmen)... Well, bad luck.

That list will never normally win games (or only win by a small amount). It only starts to win if you actually try to play against it. Obliterate the other 2 units that he has to have outside the tower at a distance, then sit outside of magic range/dispell any awakening of the woods. But the game will effectively be a draw straight out. Nothing that can be done about it.


P.S. I may be doing it wrong, but i can't get your lord to work out points wise. WIth shield, tzeentch, anti-heroes, helm of many eyes and talis of protection, he comes to just 300. Give him talisman of preservation, then he's 330pts (and a freaking nightmare in a challenge).

Johnnyfrej
13-10-2010, 17:44
Kinda off-topic but what models do you use for Chariots? Do you use the metal Chaos one or convert from another plastic chariot? I personally love them but got fed up with the horrible Chaos metal model.

thisisntnotjt
13-10-2010, 19:07
@johnny: I'm actually using some chariots I had converted back in 6th ed from Beasts chariots in order to fit my Celtic themed army. That one was fun, but got totally destroyed when I lost the book and 7th ed came out.

@ Gaar: If a tie is the normal result from the tower, is it really that likely to be seen at nationals? You need to get lots of battle points to do any good.

I'll double check on that combat lord, but I'm not using him in any case.

thisisntnotjt
15-10-2010, 17:18
GUUUUUH, I played a double Stank list last night. That was interesting. They didn't do any real damage to me, they just held my units up forever. I totally crewed up, though, and charged Karl Franz with a marauder unit that had my Lord, then the other one that had my l.2 next turn. Bad move, JT. He just challenged all champions and my sorcerers, which caused me to keep losing as he would get max over kill, though I stuck around with the units, eventually killing the griffon.

Annoying game, but I learned a ton about steam tanks. They are quite an investment for my opponent, but since we just end up getting stuck and can send my other units up no problem. It turned out to be a tie, by the way, since I didn't actually send the rest of my units up, just tried pounding the stanks to see what would happen. These are test games after all, eh?

scarvet
15-10-2010, 17:40
Sounds like your opponent didn't use those Stank aggressive enough; do look out for those who use them as lure and hit your Warriors in flank.

Dark_Mage99
16-10-2010, 19:15
He just challenged all champions and my sorcerers, which caused me to keep losing as he would get max over kill, though I stuck around with the units, eventually killing the griffon.


I don't think you can challenge specific models. You just issue a vague challenge, and then you get to pick who fights in it. So the lord could have if he wanted to.

Unless he didn't wan't to, of course...

vinny t
18-10-2010, 00:29
Steam Tanks... Mmake me smile
@ Scarvet- My initial plan was to throw both stanks in his unit of tzeentchy guys. However, on the first turn a hellcannon took 5 wounds off one, making that plan impossible. I threw the other one in, though, which held up the whole unit for the game. Due to Lore of Life healing from my wizard, I was able to hea the other stank enough to help franz kill marauders.

thisisntnotjt
19-10-2010, 03:51
@Dark_Mage: The issue is that Chaos models that can challenge, must. Also, I cannot refuse challenges. So, he didn't pick out characters to challenge, but he systematically killed them off each turn.

Jericho
20-10-2010, 00:54
Champions can refuse challenges, actually. Don't ask why, the Chaos FAQ gets more and more ridiculous every time they revise it.

I like the change to having 2x40 Marauders. Another chariot would be nice, but 30 is really the bare minimum for these units.

And just in case you didn't figure it out yet, but Banner of Rage + MoT/Shields = fail. Can't claim a Parry save while frenzied. I see you weren't using it anymore, but it's worth pointing out!

Also it might not be a terrible idea to give the anvil Warriors the Banner of Discipline. You can get a Ld9 general (complete with Ld9 inspiring presence) without taking a Chaos Lord :) This is quite handy when you run into things like Slaaneshi Demons who make you pass a Ld test before doing anything worth doing...

thisisntnotjt
20-10-2010, 12:59
@Jericho: Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking originally with the banner of rage. Maybe something along the lines of, "Well, it's like the khorne upgrade but better and I can have a ward save!" Silly me. I wasn't used to playing Tzeentch since I'm typically a themed army guy. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. I think the 4+ ward against shooting is pretty vital, though. I've found that it makes my opponent totally ignore these guys in the shooting phase, which usually turns out to be a mistake.

thisisntnotjt
20-10-2010, 13:40
OK boyz, the final scenarios for the 'Ard Boyz are up! Here they are in all their glory! (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1460414a_WHArdBoyzFinalsScenarios.pdf)

Scenario 1: Aw crap... and scree slopes? Crap, crap, crap. Well, maybe it's not all bad. I played a test game for this scenario last night against dwarfs, probably one of my more feared opponents. He made some mistakes in deployment, like deploying his guys too far up.

Even still, the only real downside, if my opponent is truly clever, is an extra 2 rounds of stone thrower and cannon shots. The rest of the short range will be normal. For the units on top of any scree slops, hopefully he decides to put warmachines up there so the dogs can charge with minimal casualties. Maybe a chariot. I definitely don't want my infantry going up there; no free points for my opponent, thank you. Tzeentch magic might help too.

Scenario 2: Yes... yes, yes, YES. Any shooting opponents are in for a world of hurt in this one. A free round of movement with little shooting at me? Maybe 2 depending on the roll? AND he has to split up his guys? My units can operate more or less independent if they need to, especially going up against just one other unit.

I just hope I actually fight a shooty army in this one. In the regionals, the first scenario involved a crazy amount of miscasts, so I was counting on my puppet to get me some extra victory points... tomb kings. Lovely. Though I guess many armies take a little bit of shooting. Like mine, though I'm more than happy to march the Hellcannons up field to stomp on some infantry. It's ever so much fun.

Scenario 3: All along the Watchtower... This one needs some deliberation, guys.

Situation 1: I get the tower. I don't really have a choice to put my khorne warriors in there, since the unit can't be larger than 20. This shouldn't be such a bad thing, though, as I imagine they can survive just about anything except the choppiest of Lords. I figure around turn 3 I should be able to pop them out and stick my Tzeentch unit is there, since there's no size restriction later in the game.

I just want to make sure my reading on this is correct. I can leave the tower with one unit first, then enter with another? Can I get some verification?

Anyways, I figure that will be pretty solid for a minor victory. Since my opponent will be focusing on tearing down the tower, I'll march the rest of my forces up field to distract/ clean up smaller/ support units of his.

Situation 2: Considering the size of most towers, I actually have a pretty decent shot of getting off a turn one charge with the khorne warriors, which I think are best suited to tearing units out of the tower. They probably won't kick them out turn one (though it has happened before with me vs. goblins!), but it will set me up for the following turn. In the mean time, I'll focus on surrounding the tower as quick as possible to hold off any other would be assaulters, in the turns after I take it with my presumably weakened warriors. Perhaps, if I'm clever enough, I can time it so my Tzeentch warriors will assault when my opponent only has a few models left. That would be optimal.

Rhellion
20-10-2010, 14:02
The only thing I have to really say about your list is that your Warrior units could use a bit of beefing up, numbers wise. One round of unlucky magic against Skaven on the first turn and you can lose an entire block, easily. Power Scroll and the thirteenth spell will be all over the place. There will be a lot of Skaven at the finals.

I played Watchtower last night and destroyed the tower on the third turn. I don't see it lasting very long against Skaven players, so plan for that as well.

If you'll be in Chicago, see you there!

thisisntnotjt
20-10-2010, 14:15
@ Rhellion: Sweet dude! Where you staying, maybe we can grab a drink?

Rhellion
20-10-2010, 14:19
@ Rhellion: Sweet dude! Where you staying, maybe we can grab a drink?

I think I am staying at the Red Roof Inn, recommended by the staff of the Bunker because it is right across the street. I should be up there Friday night for a game or to check out the bunker as well, as it will be my first time.

thisisntnotjt
20-10-2010, 17:18
Cool, I'll take a look as well. Look for a really shabby looking Warrior army that has Hellcannons converted from stegadons.

Sandals
20-10-2010, 17:28
Situation 2: Considering the size of most towers, I actually have a pretty decent shot of getting off a turn one charge with the khorne warriors, which I think are best suited to tearing units out of the tower. They probably won't kick them out turn one (though it has happened before with me vs. goblins!), but it will set me up for the following turn.

would the Khorne warriors get their 2 attaks each when assaulting the Tower? They're not in formation and it says that they are all in combat, may be worth looking into.
(I have in no way checked the rules on this! :D )

Rhellion
20-10-2010, 17:41
would the Khorne warriors get their 2 attaks each when assaulting the Tower? They're not in formation and it says that they are all in combat, may be worth looking into.
(I have in no way checked the rules on this! :D )

They do. It's not a normal combat. You get 10 models to fight per side.

thisisntnotjt
20-10-2010, 19:37
And the Khorne Warriors totally get 3 attacks each.

Also, on the subject of rats tearing the building down, it says on the scenario sheet that they may end up needing to use other terrain pieces as the center "objective." How do you think they'll handle that?

Rhellion
20-10-2010, 21:10
And the Khorne Warriors totally get 3 attacks each.

Also, on the subject of rats tearing the building down, it says on the scenario sheet that they may end up needing to use other terrain pieces as the center "objective." How do you think they'll handle that?


They probably won't have enough towers and will uses houses instead. Same thing scenario-wise.

I just gave the Bunker a call and asked about destroying the tower (you then play for victory points) and totally forgot to ask about this, lol.

thisisntnotjt
21-10-2010, 00:29
I figured that was the case on the victory points thing. Seems obvious. So does the house idea; any building would work, really. I was just nervous because the scenario implied the possibility that a building might not be used.

I guess I shouldn't worry about it. It's more curiosity than anything.

Esco Thomson
21-10-2010, 00:41
The building they actually use just might not be actual Towers. I spoke to the To and that is what he said to me anyways.

I don't think anyone will fault them for not necessarily having 30+ towers available, despite being a GW store...

thisisntnotjt
21-10-2010, 02:17
Psh, what the hell is wrong with them. I own 14 towers myself (give or take 13 (mostly take)).

thisisntnotjt
22-10-2010, 10:17
Well, I guess it is what it is! Wish me luck. Maybe I'll take some pictures and put together an "Ard Boyz Edition Battle Summary Pack".

Wish me luck!

Havock
23-10-2010, 15:19
The only thing I have to really say about your list is that your Warrior units could use a bit of beefing up, numbers wise. One round of unlucky magic against Skaven on the first turn and you can lose an entire block, easily. Power Scroll and the thirteenth spell will be all over the place. There will be a lot of Skaven at the finals.

I played Watchtower last night and destroyed the tower on the third turn. I don't see it lasting very long against Skaven players, so plan for that as well.

If you'll be in Chicago, see you there!

I run my blocks 20 strong right now, exactly for that purpose (13th spell isn't the only unit-wiping thing out there). Got hit by that last week, 7 warriors remained versus a horde of clanrats, and they held until the game was over.

Avian
23-10-2010, 15:27
Kinda off-topic but what models do you use for Chariots?
I've considered converting some based on the HE chariot.

thisisntnotjt
25-10-2010, 17:38
Well, I got 18th place. Kind of a bummer but I had a lot of fun.

I got matched up against Teclis round one. I was doing really well at first actually, but my dice crapped out on me, failing waaay too many dwellers below S checks. Like, a ridiculous amount. Oh well, that's the game.

Round two, which could have been a huge one for me, turned crap against a Khorne daemon army who ended up stealing my first turn from me. My hellcannons couldn't blast the Thirster, and I didn't roll up gateway, so I had no real tools against it.

Round three I destroyed a Dark Elf player who was in a funny mood after his losses as well. He started with the objective with his only eligible unit, 15 crossbows and an assassin. Didn't last long. I took the objective and killed every model in his army save his general.

I wish I played some the armies I was hoping for the first two games. I think I would have done fairly well against the skaven or Dark Elf guys who ended up placing. Oh well, maybe I'll find out next year.

Congratulations to Rhellion, who placed; that's pretty sweet!

Esco Thomson
25-10-2010, 19:45
Yeah I would have liked to play your list, though admittedly, I am not too overly worried about the WoC matchup.

Lazy Mic
26-10-2010, 05:40
I wish I played some the armies I was hoping for the first two games. I think I would have done fairly well against the skaven or Dark Elf guys who ended up placing. Oh well, maybe I'll find out next year.

I was a bit weirded out that with all those Skaven, Warrior and Dwarf armies that all I fought was elves. I was a bit curious how I would have done against the various Warrior armies, I seem to have the most trouble with those.

Anyways, good luck for next time!