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View Full Version : Ironcurse Icon vs Hellcannon shot - do you get a 6+ ward?



domread
28-09-2010, 20:33
The Ironcurse icon grants the user a 6+ ward save from 'War Machine Weapons'

My argument is that since it fires as if it were a stone thrower the opponent will be able to claim their 6+ ward save.


The opposing argument is this :

Based on the unit type the hellcannon is a monster - No Ward Save allowed.


Rules below:

'The Hellcannon fires as a stone thrower with a Strength of 5 (10 for the model under the hole).'


The following examples have also been given as examples of stone thrower hits from non-war machines.

(Monster)Beastmen Cygor - 'A cygor may make a shooting attack each turn as if it were a stone thrower'

(Chariot)Gnoblar Scraplauncher - 'When they fire, Scraplaunchers determine where their shot lands exactly like stone throwers'

(Magic Weapon)Thundermace - 'Determine casualties exactly as if the unit had suffered a direct hit by a Strength 4(8) stone thrower.'

a18no
28-09-2010, 20:55
Add one more: pendulum from shadow lore, make a single line of 6D6 and for each model touched, as a rebond from cannon ball, make an ini [...]


For my part, acting like something dosen't make you that thing. Another exemple: monstruous infantry follow rules for infantry. It does not mean that you can stomp an ogre.

My answer: no ward from ironcurse icon against hellcannon/cygor/scraplauncher/thundermace/pendulum.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
28-09-2010, 21:01
I guess most peoples opinion depends on whether they have or face hellcannons ;)

Loopstah
28-09-2010, 22:08
It's unit type is not Warmachine so you don't get the ward.

Kevlar
28-09-2010, 22:26
Cool that means you get no ward from my warpfire throwers and various other weapon teams.

Last Edition
28-09-2010, 23:23
Add one more: pendulum from shadow lore, make a single line of 6D6 and for each model touched, as a rebond from cannon ball, make an ini [...]


For my part, acting like something dosen't make you that thing. Another exemple: monstruous infantry follow rules for infantry. It does not mean that you can stomp an ogre.

My answer: no ward from ironcurse icon against hellcannon/cygor/scraplauncher/thundermace/pendulum.
This...


It's unit type is not Warmachine so you don't get the ward.
and this..

RanaldLoec
28-09-2010, 23:28
What about vs steam tank unit type chariot?

Synnister
29-09-2010, 02:01
i would say that you'd get the ward save if it specifies War Machine weapon. Since the hellcannon shot is clearly a war machine weapon.

Kevlar
29-09-2010, 02:27
i would say that you'd get the ward save if it specifies War Machine weapon. Since the hellcannon shot is clearly a war machine weapon.

Yeah really. I mean the steam tank is a "chariot" model, but it has an actual cannon mounted on it. It doesn't just "shoot like a cannon" it is a cannon. And the Hell "cannon" sounds a bit war machinish as well.

Yrrdead
29-09-2010, 03:10
Well I think we would need a specific definition of "war machine weapons".

The first place I can find this phrase is on pg 109 under "Shooting with War Machines"

Which would seem to imply(to me) that war machine weapons means ; bolt throwers, cannons, fire throwers, and stone throwers. As well as anything else with the unit type war machine.

As to how that applies to things that "fire like x war machine" I'm not sure.

I'm still of the opinion that "fire like a x war machine" != war machine. But in this items case it is a bit ambiguous.

I'd fail on the generous side though and let my opponent have his save.

*Though in my experience any unit with ironcurse icon will inevitably be ignored or I will forget that I have the item.

Synnister
29-09-2010, 04:09
To me the phrase "war machine weapon" applies to all things that are like the weapon part of the war machine. For example; hellcannon, stegadon bow, cygor, etc.

Djekar
29-09-2010, 07:11
I'd go with the very lax "anything that fires like a war machine" interpretation, but that is based only on preference and not on any rules understanding that is beyond mortal ken. Conversely, I use hellcannons, so I'm shooting myself in the foot here (and I failed my 6+ ward save too ... ).

Fubar
29-09-2010, 07:14
I came up aginst this last week, and we decided on not a war machine, but since thinking about it, it does say shoots like a stone thrower, if were gonna use all the benefits from that term, pivot on spot, d6 hit under hole, etc, then we should also use the drawbacks, such as ironcurse icon.

Also in first line on description it states "Part daemon, part war machine...."

crazyjake
29-09-2010, 16:33
If I were the other player, I'd let you take the 6+

a18no
29-09-2010, 19:45
Following the same discussion: will you give look out sir roll for everything that say "shoot as a warmachines"

Since pendulum say choose target as for cannon shooting, will you give the look out sir AND the ward 6+ from ironcurse icon?

crazyjake
29-09-2010, 19:50
I would :) But as I understood it, I thought that anything that hits with a template merits a look out sir. I could very easily be wrong, that's just how I've been playing it.

Yellow Commissar
29-09-2010, 19:51
Following the same discussion: will you give look out sir roll for everything that say "shoot as a warmachines"

Since pendulum say choose target as for cannon shooting, will you give the look out sir AND the ward 6+ from ironcurse icon?

Look out sir was errated to include spells.

As for the Icon, I think the rules are simply not clear. Going to have to agree with my opponent on this one.

Tregar
29-09-2010, 20:02
I think it says the weapon to differentiate from the possible wounds caused by the warmachine in close combat when charging it, but really, who knows...

a18no
29-09-2010, 21:55
Look out sir was errated to include spells WITH TEMPLATE.

As for the Icon, I think the rules are simply not clear. Going to have to agree with my opponent on this one.

I've changed you sentences to fit the FAQ. Purple sun and pit of shade will give a Look out sir, the 6th from metal won't.

My question: does pendulum became a "template like weapon" because he act as a warmachine? in the BRB, they say that some shooting use special template, as catapult and canon.

antihelten
29-09-2010, 22:09
I've changed you sentences to fit the FAQ. Purple sun and pit of shade will give a Look out sir, the 6th from metal won't.

My question: does pendulum became a "template like weapon" because he act as a warmachine? in the BRB, they say that some shooting use special template, as catapult and canon.

I'd say that you do get a look out sir from pendulum, since it hits as a bouncing cannonball, and as you mention a bouncing cannonball is a special kind of template.

chivalrous
29-09-2010, 22:57
I'd go with the very lax "anything that fires like a war machine" interpretation, but that is based only on preference and not on any rules understanding that is beyond mortal ken. Conversely, I use hellcannons, so I'm shooting myself in the foot here (and I failed my 6+ ward save too ... ).

Which would also include magic weapons such as the 'Bow of the Seafarer' from the High Elf list which shoots like a Bolt Thrower :/

As always, if I or my opponent fields an ambiguous "War machine weapon" I'll settle it with The Most Important Rule until an errata or FAQ resolves the ambiguity.