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View Full Version : Large footprint mounts - better for wizards or BSBs?



geldedgoat
29-09-2010, 06:46
I had some time to kill at work today, so I started toying around with a WoC mono-Nurgle list. While working with the 2000 point list, I decided to throw one of the characters on a palanquin and immediately was struck with a conundrum: assuming only one can get the mount, which character would be the best choice?

Sorcerers would enjoy the larger base size for potential miscasts, as templates would hit roughly three less models with the center placed on a 50x50mm base rather than a 25x25mm one. AoE spells (or spells not requiring line-of-sight) that don't use a template would also benefit from the larger base size by having a slightly extended range.

BSBs would also benefit from a larger base size by having the range of their banner effect extended a little more.

Both characters suffer from being susceptible to more attacks, but BSBs would probably be kitted to handle those better than wizards.

There are obviously other factors to consider specific to each race's large mounts (the WoC palanquin, for example, adds additional attacks that would probably be more useful on a fighty BSB), but those concerns aside, which character do you think benefits the most?

Lazarian
29-09-2010, 07:58
I had some time to kill at work today, so I started toying around with a WoC mono-Nurgle list. While working with the 2000 point list, I decided to throw one of the characters on a palanquin and immediately was struck with a conundrum: assuming only one can get the mount, which character would be the best choice?

Sorcerers would enjoy the larger base size for potential miscasts, as templates would hit roughly three less models with the center placed on a 50x50mm base rather than a 25x25mm one. AoE spells (or spells not requiring line-of-sight) that don't use a template would also benefit from the larger base size by having a slightly extended range.

BSBs would also benefit from a larger base size by having the range of their banner effect extended a little more.

Both characters suffer from being susceptible to more attacks, but BSBs would probably be kitted to handle those better than wizards.

There are obviously other factors to consider specific to each race's large mounts (the WoC palanquin, for example, adds additional attacks that would probably be more useful on a fighty BSB), but those concerns aside, which character do you think benefits the most?

The Bsb being able to have a larger footprint would seem to work. Your mage should have blood of tzeentch to mitigate possible miscasts hopefully.

geldedgoat
29-09-2010, 09:24
Your mage should have blood of tzeentch to mitigate possible miscasts hopefully.

I intentionally worded the question to refer to all armies, not just WoC, as most don't have the luxury of such an item. In the case of my army, Blood of Tzeentch makes more sense on the second caster in my list, so it's not an option for me either.

meneroth
29-09-2010, 15:21
with the way movement works, where you move from the front end of your base to the front end of your base say...8" away, your still gonna have the same range with your spells right? I do see how it would be beneficial if you wanted to shoot off multiple spells in multiple direction, but thats about it.

now for the BSB it does help cause he is extending his bubble more to the side and rear than the front, so i see it being good on him, but you gotta remember that he will be slightly easier to target as well.

theorox
29-09-2010, 15:27
I agree, BSB seems to be a bit better. :)

Theo

Kevlar
29-09-2010, 20:56
With supporting attacks and horde formation I would say neither. Why expose an important fragile character to more attacks than need be? Unless you run him on the side of a unit where he only has the tip of a corner in B2B with the enemy I really don't think its a good idea. Plus in many cases you are giving up a "look out sir!" roll.

geldedgoat
30-09-2010, 02:23
with the way movement works, where you move from the front end of your base to the front end of your base say...8" away, your still gonna have the same range with your spells right? I do see how it would be beneficial if you wanted to shoot off multiple spells in multiple direction, but thats about it.

Spells from the BRB lores that would benefit from the increased range:
Fire: Cascading Fire Cloak, Flaming Sword of Rhuin, Fulminating Fire Cage
Beasts: Wyssan's Wildform, Pann's Impenetrable Pelt, The Cure of Anraheir, The Savage Beast of Horros
Metal: Plague of Rust, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Glittering Robe, Transmutation of Lead
Light: Pha's Protection, The Speed of Light, Light of Battle, Net of Amyntok, Birona's Timewarp
Life: Earth Blood, Flesh to Stone, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth
Heavens: Iceshard Blizzard, Harmonic Convergence, Curse of the Midnight Wind
Shadow: Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma, The Enfeebling Foe, The Withering, Okkam's Mindrazor
Death: Aspect of the Dreadknight, Soulblight, Doom and Darkness

Spells from the WoC lores that would benefit from the increased range:
Nurgle (on palanquin, dragon, and daemonic mount): Fleshy Abundance, Plague Squall (maybe, not sure how this is classed), Curse of the Leper, Rot, Glorious Rot
Tzeentch (on disc, dragon, and daemonic mount): Baleful Transmogrification, Treason of Tzeentch, Call to Glory, Infernal Gateway
Slaanesh (on daemonic mount, dragon, and maybe steed of Slaanesh): Hellshriek, Hysterical Frenzy, Titillating Delusions, Aura of Aquiescence, Ecstatic Seizures

I may have missed a couple spells from the BRB or added a couple that I shouldn't have, as I ran through them very quickly. But basically all hexes and augments would benefit as they draw range from the edge of the caster's base and do not require LOS. Now, obviously some are less useful than others, but, for example, Rot, Glorious Rot gets a large boost from any base size increase.


With supporting attacks and horde formation I would say neither. Why expose an important fragile character to more attacks than need be?

Yeah, I know that's a risk, but I think it may be worth it in some cases. I know for WoC at least, even our casters are hard to take down, and putting them on a mount makes that one more armor harder.


Unless you run him on the side of a unit where he only has the tip of a corner in B2B with the enemy I really don't think its a good idea.

Why would you ever run a BSB or wizard in the middle of the unit? Wizards want to be on the edge to minimize the friendly damage of potential miscasts, and I would think BSBs would want to be on the edge to throw that banner effect as far as possible.


Plus in many cases you are giving up a "look out sir!" roll.

Well, I can't really speak for non-WoC armies as I don't play any, but Nurgle's palanquin gets Look Out Sir! from infantry. Tzeentch's disc and Slaanesh's steed could only claim one on the rare occasion they're near a unit of warhounds, but they're fast enough that they shouldn't need to worry about it much.

Lazarian
30-09-2010, 02:40
The range on spells is rather irrelevant from what i have found in the new rules. Regardless your still going to set up 24 inches or so away and still be moving as slow as the slowest in your unit, your not actually getting any extra spell range unless its later in the game and then you have a slightly better bubble of range, however your going to get to where you need to go, those extra centimeters are not going to matter for magic range in general in the era of premeasuring. The spells that rely on you actually touching the target can have some help but again your exposing your caster to an unwaranted degree of risk and it just might not be worthwhile since you intend on having him as an outlier anyway.

On a BSB the situation is similar but you do have a control where your army sets up so a bigger bubble on him would be somewhat more useful.

Regardless I dont think either of them should get a mount but for fluff and modeling purposes either one would look good on the board so eh, whatever you want to do.

Dreadgrass
30-09-2010, 02:54
If your looking at it for WoC, don't forget the 2 items that cause T tests on all enemies in B2B!

SiNNiX
30-09-2010, 06:02
It's completely situational. For example, I put my HoK BSB on a Jugg, not only to increase the range of Despair, but also to improve his AS from 3+ to 1+. Stuff like that is definitely worth it.

BSB range increase is always nice to have, but make sure you have a backup plan to protect him. In 8th, it's all about keeping your BSB alive and happy.