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View Full Version : WoC at 2000 and the battle that never started



AMWOOD co
29-09-2010, 08:13
It was my first battle in 8th and was very disappointed as my opponent's Skaven killed more of his own troops than I did. By the end of turn 2 the battle was a foregone conclusion and he forfeited. Nonetheless, I would appreciate comments on the army I brought to the table.

Sorceror Lord of Tzeentch
lvl 4, rides a disc, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Spell Familiar, Sword of Might, Stream of Corruption
415 pts

Sorceror of Tzeentch
lvl 2, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield, Conjoined Homunculus
210 pts

12 Warriors
hand weapon and shield, full command
222 pts

12 Warriors
halberd and shield, full command
234 pts

12 Warriors
great weapon and shield, full command
246 pts

5 Marauder Horsemen of Khorne
flails, light armour, full command
140 pts

7 knights
full command, Banner of Rage
365 pts

3 Spawn
165 pts

Total: 1997

Deployment: 2 spawn are deployed first so as to draw out enemy units. These critters will hug forests and other such terrain. Warrior line is next once I have an idea where the centre of the battle will be and the knights are last (before characters) so as to take advantage of what they may. The Sorceror Lord is to attack targets of opportunity (war machines, small units) and blast everything with his magic. The Sorceror will deploy with any of the Warrrior units.

Magic: I have the entire Tzeentchi spell list at my disposal. Both wizards have flickering fire, and the Sorceror has 1 other spell that I should have at least some control over. Gateway goes to the Lord if I can help it.

Tactic: There's no subtlety to this army. Run up, kill things, be the last man standing. Magic is used to inflict damage where it may, preferably on large units that need a good licking. Everything should be able to fight through the long haul.


Comments?

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
29-09-2010, 14:12
Pandamonium is the best spell in the deck as it isolates units that rely on their generals Ld, like slaves,clanrats etc.

Attack his bsb's unit with Gateway until you kill it/him or he runs away/hides.

Once you have the rest of them in combat-Pandemonium will win you the game-he can't do big buffs/de buffs for fear of miscasts where you can puppet him off the table.

Helcannons are beyond excellent, much better than 3 spawn which are lame now.

Knights are not great any more.

GL

Dan

Azshara
29-09-2010, 16:56
what can we say about your list:
-first if you want to out deploy your opponent you should take some dogs, they only cost 30pts compare to your 55pts spawn and for me are capable to be of great use.
-great weapon on woc is realy a bad choice (if you wanna know why just go read the woc tactica)
-woc by 12 is good but for me 18 is better that way you may have steadfast against high cost powerful unit with only one rank (like knight)
-your marauder unit as only 5 members you wont win figth like this take at least 10 of them if you wanna use them as flanking unit or even as a threat. (however if you was willing to use them as a decoy fleeing unit or what so ever you can't flee because your frenzy)
-why are you taking a spell familiar with your sorcerer don't you know that if you get a double on your spell rolling you can choose the spell you want? Plus this item useless as if you have a lv 2 and a lv 4 of tzeentch you will already have all tzeentch spells and so because you can't double a spell you will lost one on one of your sorcerer. (p.s if you don't get what i'm saying :D just go read the spell rolling rules)
-knight aren't as good as in 7th ed but I don't know many non elf unit that can face them.

AMWOOD co
29-09-2010, 21:54
what can we say about your list:
-first if you want to out deploy your opponent you should take some dogs, they only cost 30pts compare to your 55pts spawn and for me are capable to be of great use.

Hate hounds. Never liked them. Waste of 30 pts. At least a spawn can take down a wizard and can last a while against arrow fire. Also, spawn are a little out there for most opponents, they don't seem to know how to handle them. I must admit that the change to charging has made them somewhat weaker tactically.


-great weapon on woc is realy a bad choice (if you wanna know why just go read the woc tactica)
-woc by 12 is good but for me 18 is better that way you may have steadfast against high cost powerful unit with only one rank (like knight)

Like I said, it was my first game. I was hoping to see how my warriors would do. The problem with fielding larger units for me is that I use the 5th/6th edition models of warriors and that's all I've got. As for great weapons, I didn't know which army I would be up against and great weapons are for instances when knights show up.


-your marauder unit as only 5 members you wont win figth like this take at least 10 of them if you wanna use them as flanking unit or even as a threat. (however if you was willing to use them as a decoy fleeing unit or what so ever you can't flee because your frenzy)

They are simply a distraction. With vanguard, they're right at the front and ready to charge. If they can take enemy fire for a turn or two instead of my warriors, they are completely worth it. Khorne makes them seem more of a threat. Perhaps I should drop the command, that will free up points for Mark of Slaanesh for my warriors.


-why are you taking a spell familiar with your sorcerer don't you know that if you get a double on your spell rolling you can choose the spell you want? Plus this item useless as if you have a lv 2 and a lv 4 of tzeentch you will already have all tzeentch spells and so because you can't double a spell you will lost one on one of your sorcerer. (p.s if you don't get what i'm saying :D just go read the spell rolling rules)

Reread when more than 1 wizard can have the same spell. Each of my wizards can have Flickering Fire (I just see that both do have it). The Lord will have 4 more and the Sorceror will have 1 more, giving me the whole list Anything else and I might not get one of them. I can't count the number of times with Hordes that Galrauch didn't get orange fire when it's the only spell I really wanted him to have.


-knight aren't as good as in 7th ed but I don't know many non elf unit that can face them.

7 Knights should be able to grind down most units. The battle was over before I could do anything, though.


Anyway, next fight is against Lizardmen. I'm going to take a very similar list, just to see how it will do. I've already mentioned one change. Just to give an idea, my opponent will likely have a Slaan with Saurus or Temple Guard, a large unit of Cold One Riders (15-20), a stegadon (though not the Engine of the Gods), and the rest is up in the air between skinks, Saurus, Kroxigors, Salamanders and Terradons. Some things are already covered (terradons and skinks can meet my Lord and Spawn), but others, such as the Stegadon, I've yet to truly consider.

Azshara
29-09-2010, 22:14
"a spell can only exist once per army" so no double flickering fire, the only exception are when you "buy" the spell or spells specified in the army book (drain magic or dark magic). If the spell you get is already in the army and that you can't change it you lose the spell. And chance of having a double on 4d6 are realy high so you easly get your spell plus you have 4/6 chances to get the spell you whant anyway.

Havock
29-09-2010, 22:42
Flickering fire is the first spell, as such, it is exempt.

Azshara
29-09-2010, 23:16
It only work for primary spells and so only with rulebook lores. Anyway I maybe wrong but then I wanna know where it is specified, that flickering fire as the primary spell rule.

AMWOOD co
30-09-2010, 19:30
...each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as... If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question.

Thus, the first spell from each army's list is exempt from the 'no duplicates' limitation as all army books allow you to swap for the first spell (where applicable, except skaven where each wizard type swaps for different spells). Also, High Elf Dragon Mages can use multiples of Flaming Sword. There are likely other specific exceptions (Loremaster special rules and characters like Festus who must use a certain spell), but I don't know them all.

Therefore: Sorceror Lord knows 5 spells including Flickering Fire. Sorceror knows 2 spells including Flickering Fire. Between the two, I have the entire list and no wasted 'spell slots'.

Azshara
30-09-2010, 20:24
I'm maybe bitching around too much about such a pointless thing but I can see why you think you can double flickering fire. In my opinion (I may be mistaken but in that case quote the rule) flickering fire can't be double because on the spell rule page it is said that the only exception about the double spell rules are for spell that aren't randomize:
-If a figure can't choose his spell because he bought the spell (like for festus the leechlord or a slann that knows all spells)
-If it's clearly specified in the army book that you can change one of your spell for an other one.
And it's this last portion of the rule that make you think that you can take it but this only work for non randomize spell (nehek, dark magik etc...) and not for flickering fire or sword of rhuin (for the dragon mage) because they can be randomize.

Plus as I said before it isn't said anywhere in the rule book or the erreta/faq that flickering fire has the primary spell rule so you can't duplicate it.

But still I can be mistaking the rules, and then tell what rule did I miss?

azshara

AMWOOD co
30-09-2010, 21:51
Any Sorceror can swap one spell for Flickering Fire of Tzeentch if you wish.

The army book clearly states I can swap a spell for Flickering Fire. Therefore, by the quote I made previously, I may have Flickering Fire of Tzeentch more than once in my army. The same applies to Lash of Slaanesh and Magnificent Buboes.

If you want to be technical, I can always say that I swap Flickering Fire for itself should I roll a 1.

The reason that this bullet is in place is to cover the Army Lists as Signature Spells have their own section where it is stated outright that they can be doubled. Note that Signature spells would be covered in the second bullet even if it were not stated directly in their little section.

Alternate case:
I have 2 level 1 High Elf mages, both using High Magic. By the first bullet on pg 490, they both are allowed to have Drain Magic, as their rules grant it to them. The first rolls for his spell and rolls a 5. I choose to swap it for spell 1. The second mage rolls and gets a 3. I may also choose to swap it for spell 1, as the second bullet allows me to do so. ("Any mage can automatically swap one spell for Shield of Saphery if you wish." - High Elves Army Book - pg47)

If I can do this, what's to stop me from doing it any other time? Now I would argue that only 1 non-Dragon mage may have Flaming Sword (Loremasters excluded) in a single army, and the issue of models that come with all the spells of a Lore is a tricky one (If I have Vilitch or Galrauch, can any other mage have spells from the Lore of Tzeentch), but that's only part of the issue here. I cannot agree with your interpretation, it weakens armies like the Skaven and Greenskins, who use only their lists' magic, too much in terms of magic and defeats the purpose of mentioning army books in the second bullet point.

As far as I know, only the Skaven army does not state that you can swap any spell for the first (though the Greenskin and Daemon books specify if you didn't roll it randomly), and the Skaven book specifies for each mage which spell they may swap for. I'm not sure about the Beastman's Lore of the Wild or exactly how Vampires work. Dark Elves may swap for their first, Wood Elves can. No one else has an army book lore and as far as I know, all have spells that can be swapped for that the Signature Spells of now are working towards replacing (one army book at a time, if that).

Azshara
30-09-2010, 22:52
-For Vilitch since he as "bought" is spells you can have some other mage of tzeentch with tzeentch spells.

-about the my interpretation being unfare for races, well a lots of rules were unfair for some races in 8th :).

-The question turn out to be: If a spell that can be randomize (with the spell rolling) is still consider "randomize" if you can always choose it?
The easy way out would be to consider that the spell rolling rules in the rule book totaly changes the spell rolling rules in the army book with the exception of the special spells like drain magic.... and that the first spell swap rule shouldn't be use anymore and this rule as been replace by the "Doubles" rule, but it is realy unlikely.
So how can we figure out?

I still think that because you can roll the spell you can't double it (if the rule book says ......... then it how we should play it unless the rule book says that we have to rely on the army book) and is what we think in my gaming club, after maybe should we ask for a general FAQ on special army lores.

Anyway if you want to discuss this rule shouldn't you post in the rules sub forum maybe someone will find the answer to all this :confused: ?

AMWOOD co
01-10-2010, 02:13
Perhaps we should move this discussion to rules, however. I'll entitle it "Magic Query: Doubles and Army Lores". See you there.

Now, anyone want to comment on the list?

AMWOOD co
01-10-2010, 02:28
Link to new thread for the Magic Lore bit, here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277573).