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View Full Version : Magic Query: Doubles and Army Lores



AMWOOD co
01-10-2010, 03:23
This is a continuation of a sidetracked discussion between Azshara and myself from another thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277378).

To summarize (if you're lazy) it is about the use of the army book magic lores and whether the first spell of these lists (or other spells that can be substituted for) can be doubled in the army or not. I'm on the pro side, Azshara's on the con.

His arguement is that since the spell can be generated randomly (by rolling a 1 in most cases), it cannot be doubled since it does not fall under the exception listed that includes the two bullet points on pg 490 (or wherever Isle of Blood has The Lores of Magic page).

In contrast, my arguement is that these spells are the reason for the second bullet point and that they thus can be doubled.

Please, before anyone starts spouting support for one or the other, take the time to actually read the rule mentioned above. I quoted it in part in the linked thread and also quoted the relevent section in the WoC army book for my particular list. We're moving that discussion here.

Chris_
01-10-2010, 03:31
The way I read it is as such:

2 Wizards roll for their army book lore, if they roll the same they can pick their spell as per normal rules. Then after this is done they may opt to change to the "signature spell" (usually the first one listed) for that lore, even if the other wizard has it (thus invocing the second bull point).

Grimskarr
01-10-2010, 04:12
In contrast, my arguement is that these spells are the reason for the second bullet point and that they thus can be doubled.It seems clear that this is the correct interpretation.

The army book over-rules the BRB in the case of that army's spell selection. So with 2 Orc Shamans, for example, they both could have the "Gaze of Mork" spell even if neither of them rolled it and neither rolled the same spells as the other. The army book rule states that: "A Shaman can automatically swap one spell for Gaze of Mork if he does not generate it randomly (O&G Army Book, p. 41)." It is exactly this kind of scenario that the second bullet (BRB p.490; LRB p. 162) is making reference to.

Synnister
01-10-2010, 04:29
Yes you can have multiple signature spells in an army.

havoc626
01-10-2010, 08:27
Yes you can have multiple signature spells in an army.

All well and good, but from memory, the updates didn't mention any of the spells in army books being 'signature spells'.

However, I would say that you could have multiples of the spell that the army book allows you to exchange any spell for (just not on the same wizard).

Chris_
01-10-2010, 08:36
So if Wizard A rolls 1,3,5. (1 being the spell he can change any of his other spells to) Then Wizard B goes ahead and rolls 1,2. In this case would Wizard B be able to take his rolled 1 and go ahead and choose any spell (ie 4 or 6) and then go on to choose if either of them wants to switch any of their spells to the 1? Or would he just stay with his 1,2? The way I read the rules it is the former as you randomize first, there is no exception during this part but it comes later, i.e. you are invocing the second bull point after all rolls/picks are done.

Azshara
01-10-2010, 11:11
I'll just recap here what I was saying:
(I'll use flickering fire for example)
-Flickering fire hasn't the signature spell rule. (no errta on it)
-Altough the second bullet alone may justifing the doubling, it is said that the bullets are for non randomize spell (it's said just before the 2 bullets). So it's only for drain magic, nehek etc... .
-"A Shaman can automatically swap one spell for Gaze of Mork if he does not generate it randomly (O&G Army Book, p. 41)." Doesn't mean that he can double it. It just mean that you can switch for this spell if you didn't randomly get it, once if we take the rule book in consideration. It doesn't over-rules the rule book.

Chris_
01-10-2010, 11:20
^ It is quite simple Azshara. If you use the ability to switch it you automatically invoke the second bull point. Swapping is not random, it is quite clear. What is unclear however is if you roll a one, and then roll another 1 with another Wizard, does he get to choose a spell or does he get that one anyway as the bull point makes no referral to what happens if this spelled is rolled twice randomly. And the examples you use are spells that you have on top of any spells that you might swap to. A vampire automatically has Nehek (the reason to why several can have this spell is the first bull point) and then a bunch of spells in the vampire lore, one of them he can change to, I wanna say Raise Dead or something similar? Anyway, several wizards can swap for this, according to the second bull point.

Demon-cookie
01-10-2010, 22:18
pg 490 of the BRB "Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:

If a model has no choice over which spell(s) it knows, either because it is fixed by the model's rules, or because it has 'bought' a specific spell as part of army selection.

If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in the question."

Seems pretty clear to me.

AMWOOD co
02-10-2010, 07:03
Watch your wording everyone. Flickering Fire and such are not "Signature Spells" as such. They do act like them, but they are not, technically, "Signature Spells".

Also...

-Altough the second bullet alone may justifing the doubling, it is said that the bullets are for non randomize spell (it's said just before the 2 bullets). So it's only for drain magic, nehek etc... .


Azshara, I found your confusion at last. You are assuming that if a spell can be generated randomly, then it cannot be duplicated. This is in error.

The issue is not if it can be generated randomly but rather if it can be generated non-randomly. You've fallen into a logical falsehood. Your thinking, if I interpret correctly, is as follows.

1- Spells generated non-randomly can be duplicated
2- Therefore, spells generated randomly can not be duplicated.

The problem is that the first line does not lead to the conclusion of the second line. If I say that whenever it rains it is cloudy, you can accept that. But if I say that whenever it's not raining it's not cloudy, you will immediately point out the flaw in that there are days where there are clouds but no rain. It's the same kind of error.

The issue thus becomes, when are spells not generated randomly. The two bullets spell out some examples. I can also add three more examples not included in the bullets, however.

1 - Kairos Fateweaver chooses spells from the eight Lores. He is not compelled to choose any particular set of spells, but can choose freely from two lists of 28.
2 - Teclis can choose any single Lore between the Eight and High Magic. He gains all seven spells for the Lore he chooses, but he is not bound to any one choice.
3 - The Seerstaff of Saphery allows it's bearer to choose his/her spells. This is thus non-random.

To conclude, I would interpret the whole issue of "How many times may I have a spell in my army" as "Once for a wizard who could not choose it or was forced to take it, and as many times for those who may/must are there are wizards that can do so."

eg. A single High Elf mage who is not Teclis, carrying the Seerstaff, or is a Dragon Mage, may have Flaming Sword of Rhuin. Any other mages in the category may not have it as they would have to aquire it randomly. One mage having it, however, will not prevent Teclis, the bearer of the Seerstaff, or a Dragon Mage from having the spell, as they all generate it non-randomly.

I hope this is clear.

Azshara
02-10-2010, 09:09
It's clear, like I said before it all turn out to be does flickering fire consider as randomize or non randomize since it can be randomize but can be swap from an other spell.

Anyway this rules isn't such a big deal to me, I can go for your interpretation or an other. However just went to several of my local game store and club to seek out, the truth about it, some didn't know, some said they was something in the errata (wtf???), but of 3 (out of 6) where saying the same as me the random word changes flickering fire into a non duplicable spells, one who works for GW even said it was because the irst spells are too easy to cast. Well this isn't a big argument since their is no proof of what i'm saying.

So how can we sure flickering fire isn't a random spell? You can get it by rolling in the first place does it make it a random spell or because you can if you want swap an other randomized spell for this one.

Can I double the spell that I swap for when got a double?

But anyway let's consider that flickering fire is alowed to be double.

If you get Double 1 how should we play this? Remember that in the errata their no more "if you get double reroll". So if it is alowed to have double flickering fire, and I get double ones, I could say I swap a one for a one so it's no more randomed (second bullet) and I keep the randomize one. I can do this since the doubles rules applys "otherwise" (below the second bullet rules).:D:D

And if I get 1,4 on a wizard and 2,3 on an other and I want the 5 can I swap the 2,3 or 4 for the one because it can be double and then say since I have double one I choose the spell 5? Just because the army book rules beats the BRB rules?:D:D


Just stop bitching around (to myself) :o:o

AMWOOD co
06-10-2010, 04:48
Right, disection time.


It's clear, like I said before it all turn out to be does flickering fire consider as randomize or non randomize since it can be randomize but can be swap from an other spell.

Once again, this is the wrong question. A spell being able to be generated randomly and able to be generated non-randomly are NOT mutually exclusive. Just because it can be generated randomly doesn't mean that it cannot be generated non-randomly.


Anyway this rules isn't such a big deal to me, I can go for your interpretation or an other. However just went to several of my local game store and club to seek out, the truth about it, some didn't know, some said they was something in the errata (wtf???), but of 3 (out of 6) where saying the same as me the random word changes flickering fire into a non duplicable spells, one who works for GW even said it was because the irst spells are too easy to cast. Well this isn't a big argument since their is no proof of what i'm saying.

Anecdote, roger. Moving on.


So how can we sure flickering fire isn't a random spell? You can get it by rolling in the first place does it make it a random spell or because you can if you want swap an other randomized spell for this one.

Can I double the spell that I swap for when got a double?

Interesting point. It never occured to me that the rules, written as is, would allow my Sorceror Lord to have up to 5 copies of Flickering Fire if I rolled all 1's. It seems absurd, in the least, but by how I've been interpretting them, that would be the case.

Now, I'm not about to do that. One, I can then see every Nurgle Player praying to roll at least one 1 and then swap out any other spell for number one to throw a bulbous amount of buboes. Two, I don't want to saddle myself with nothing but magic missiles and weak, short term, ward saves (heh).

I would simply ammend (ie house rule) the rule that no wizard can have swappable spells more than once. This avoids this particular conflict. Now, this is not as written. As written would be that I could have multiples of the spell and the reading of the list would determine whether I can swap a spell for one that I already have or not (Greenskins can't, Chaos Warriors can).


But anyway let's consider that flickering fire is alowed to be double.

If you get Double 1 how should we play this? Remember that in the errata their no more "if you get double reroll". So if it is alowed to have double flickering fire, and I get double ones, I could say I swap a one for a one so it's no more randomed (second bullet) and I keep the randomize one. I can do this since the doubles rules applys "otherwise" (below the second bullet rules).:D:D

Right, case above. Dealt with this guy.


And if I get 1,4 on a wizard and 2,3 on an other and I want the 5 can I swap the 2,3 or 4 for the one because it can be double and then say since I have double one I choose the spell 5? Just because the army book rules beats the BRB rules?:D:D


Just stop bitching around (to myself) :o:o

Okay, the second and third wizard would not get to swap for one then redistribute 1. Why would they redistribute? My case involved 2 wizards. Your case has three. Each of them may have Flickering Fire (As Written says any number of times). Otherwise, only 2 High Elf mages would have Drain Magic rather than all of them that are using High Magic (as the High Elf book states).