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Lupercus
01-10-2010, 07:06
Hey there all. Much like my previous thread on "Vampire Counts Basics", this is my attempt to get a feel for the Lizardmen. The Lizards are an army I have yet to consider doing, and in my search for a more "elite"(or potentially elite...) army than my previous forces, somehow overlooked them. However, I've had my first read through their army book, and I've got to say, I really, really like them. Their look, their background, many of their rules...they all really appeal to me, more so than any other army I've come across. I'm actually a little disappointed it took me this long to finally come across this army, and I'm pretty stoked to get the lowdown on them.

For starters, how are the various characters and units in the army list looking for 8th edition? Generally speaking, for each, of course. My first thought is that Lizardmen are a very solid army, particularly in 8th edition in many ways. They've got some very nice heavy infantry in the form of Saurus Warriors and Temple Guard(if a little low on Initiative). Skinks I'm still trying to figure out, for the most part, although I'm liking the possibilities that Chameleon Skinks offer. Honestly, pretty much everything is looking good to me when it comes to this army. Sure, not everything is perfectly amazing and efficient, but I haven't come across anything that I completely hate, by any means. Yes, Lizardmen are definitely looking like my new army...

Anything you might have to say to a new Lizardmen player would be very much appreciated. A rundown on the characters and units would be extra awesome.

Vsurma
01-10-2010, 08:48
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259603

Everything you need.

scarvet
01-10-2010, 08:49
Going from possibly strike first in first round and before great weapon to always strike last as same as great weapon is not cool at all.

My advice is give up before the new army book comes out.

Lantern
01-10-2010, 09:52
Ver constructive Scarvet, I'm guessing you also give up a battle if turn one doesn't go your way.

Anyway, as another new Lizardman player, I have to say, I love the army. Based on 2 battalions, a slann and stegadon, the entire force is not only resilient, but scary too.
So far, I've found javelin armed, skirmishing skinks worth their weight in gold, accounting for a giant, 2 varghulf and various cavalry in the 6 or so games I've used them in.

On the matter of low initiative, whilst I've had issues with this, so have most armies. The fact that casualties no longer reduce the amount of attacks back helps mitigate this somewhat, but when you consider that saurus all have 2 attacks each anyway, decent toughness and are cold blooded, they have deflective capabilities that dwarfs would be proud of. Yes, it's true that 2 ranks of spear armed saurus no longer get the 20+ attacks people were used to, but spears themselves attack in a 3rd rank now too (meaning that whilst lizardmen armies don't get the boost that other spear users got recently, the did not in actual fact get any worse). You could also arm them with hw and shield, which whilst not giving as many attacks back, does grant the 6+ ward that could save them from high strength attacks that would have once killed them outright.

On th further topic of initiative, I have been having some success with the lore of light. With one buff that makes your units always strikes first and +1 attack, and another buff that makes them both weapon skill and initiative 10 (and both spells can be boosted to effect more than one unit), the lizardmen don't always have to sit their and take it (although the lore of life buffs can help reduce the damage to zero anyway with resurrection and +4 toughness spells).

As I mentioned, I'm still fairly new to lustrias charms, with my main army being bretonnians, but hopefully this advice helps, if even a little.

In terms of t

scarvet
01-10-2010, 10:26
The difference between having the models bought or not is huge. At the moment, unless you have a passionate love for Cold-blooded creatures or Aztec theme army, Lizardmen is just not worth the spending.

The problem is Lizardmen does have much unit which is flavoured in 8th; while other armies have their unit buffed two or three fold. The freedom of amry construction is almost robbed from players.

This is from someone who didn't use Slann since 6th ed Lizardmen armybook.

Gaargod
01-10-2010, 11:42
Um scarvet, you do realise lizardmen are frequently placed as most powerful army in 8th ed?

Reading the tactica is the 'sensible' thing to do. That thing is huge though, so good luck with that. Basics are:

Saurus (and temple guard) will form the solid infantry core. They're not fast but they're hard and passably cheap. These guys are helped by a Slann keeping them there and buffing/blasting with magic, maybe some of the excellent saurus characters to help out in combat. Good flankers come in the form of stegadons really, although cold one riders aren't too bad.
Support your anvil/hammers with skinks (possibly chameleons to ninja war machines) and salamanders (who are insane).


Lizardmen are an extremely good army when played right and still pretty good when they're not. You can make things more difficult (and interesting), by taking a carnosaur and maybe some actual cavalry, instead of simply going for the saurus blocks of 'lol, fail'.

scarvet
01-10-2010, 12:05
Lizardmen is far from top tier.

For example, you don't found many Lizardmen win without a Slann. Game for Lizardmen is often decided by how well does one of the three block does; one block fails and the other will soon fall after; and ofcourse, the Slann may save the day:rolleyes:.

For me, there isn't much of a game with current Lizardmen; it is more like a gamble.

ewar
01-10-2010, 12:21
Lizardmen is far from top tier.

For example, you don't found many Lizardmen win without a Slann. Game for Lizardmen is often decided by how well does one of the three block does; one block fails and the other will soon fall after; and ofcourse, the Slann may save the day:rolleyes:.

For me, there isn't much of a game with current Lizardmen; it is more like a gamble.

I honestly have no idea where you're coming from with this - LM are one of the most reliable non-ITP armies there is, along with dwarfs. Cold blooded is fantastic.

I started LM with the release of the last book and I have to say, of all the armies I've played in WFB in 20 years, it is the most fun.

Major strong points of the list
- excellent magic. The fat frog is an iconic model and awesome in game

- unit variety. You can take part in every phase of the game by bringing: strong infantry, light infantry, monstrous infantry, skirmishers, scouts, flying cav, normal cav, war beasts, monsters, combat characters, mages... you name it, LM have got it (except artillery, but even then a steg brings a (rubbish) bolt thrower)

- modelling opportunities. LM are found in one of the widest varieties of colour scheme I think, everything from GW scheme to realistic reptilian colours to day-glo chameleonic schemes.

- DINOSAURS

Plus it helps that overall the list is reliable (with cold blooded) and strong, so played well you can compete with the best other armies can bring on equal terms.

Have fun :)

p.s. read the tactica for detailed analysis of all the unit types - just start off about 20 pages in so you miss all the pre-8th release hype/wishlisting!

Kudzu
01-10-2010, 13:26
While scarvet is certainly entitled to his opinion, I think you'll find that most of us disagree with him.

You might want to check out http://www.lustria-online.com/

Alltaken
01-10-2010, 14:28
LM basics for me:

-If you want to over power magic phase: Slann
You can run him with Lore of life makes LM more resilient than ever, he overpowers other casters. Works as good solo as does in the TG bunker.

-Skink priests a couple of them can run a highly deffensive build.

-Other heroes: Scarvets BSB, and scarvets with multiple attacks or high stregnth for monster hunting. Oldblood is seen generally as too expensive.

Units you'll use:
-Saurus: Strong, resillient, work wonders. They can even horde pretty well.
-skinks: well here's up to you, but they seem to work anyway. Don't ever think to horde them, not a good idea. They can bring about a huge amount of shots, and their lovely poison.
-jungle swarms are forgetable.
-saurus cav is too expensive and too short movement characteristic.
-terradons get shot too easy by fast cavalry or warmachines, not recomended.
-kroxs are filled with mixed opnions, you have to make up your mind with them, they do pack a punch.
-razordons are forgettable
-salamanders rock!!! they have to get close and personal, but they massively rock.
-stegs are solid, keep them away from canons (though you'll have a hard time at that). If there are no cannons dance around till proper alignment. They bring the hurt turn after turn.
-chameleon skinks are great, our new warmachine, fast cavalry, monster hunters.

Strategy wise, go for the tactica, huge thing, very valuable

Vsurma
01-10-2010, 15:04
Lizardmen is far from top tier.

For example, you don't found many Lizardmen win without a Slann. Game for Lizardmen is often decided by how well does one of the three block does; one block fails and the other will soon fall after; and ofcourse, the Slann may save the day:rolleyes:.

For me, there isn't much of a game with current Lizardmen; it is more like a gamble.

Unlike all the other armies that win without a lv4.. such as.....hmmm...oh and..... and don't forget this army of......

Wait, which army wins without a lv4 mage?

I definitely think lizardmen are one of the top tier armies no question, granted you do have to take a slann, but as I mentioned, I cannot think of a single top tier army that didn't take a lv4 mage so this point is hardly one I would put against the LM.

I do agree however that the variety is rather low, most good lizardmen lists do tend to revolve around a templeguard blcok with slann, 2 saurus blocks, salamanders and chameleon skinks. This comes out to about 1800pts, what you do with the remaining 200-600 points depending on the size of game you play is your choice. That might seem boring to some.

Not that other armies have that much more choice, with 25% min core, everyone has to take it, WOC can choose warriors or marauders, 2 choices.

Elves can choose shooters or spears etc. Most don't have that much choice.

scarvet
01-10-2010, 16:01
Empire, Dwarf, Bret, DoC can easy go around without Lv4.

The elves and OnG is also arguable for the need of one thanks to their special rules.

While HE and WoC also lack in core choice, they have more option to guard their Lv4; and they don't have the mandatory 1200~1800pts set up.

Vsurma
01-10-2010, 16:16
Neither do we.

You can take a slann in TG, slann on aladdins carpet.

Or skip slann and take a priest/s with diadam of power, scroll, cube of darkness

That is 3 options already. I am sure you could also take the slann without either TG or the carpet if you wanted.

Lupercus
01-10-2010, 18:25
Awesome, thanks so much for the outpouring of input everyone, this is great! I truly appreciate all the kind words and advice on the basics, and even varying types of opinion, it's all very helpful and encouraging. I'm incredibly stoked to start my Lizard army, and I can see myself using some of the less "effective"(currently, anyway...) units and characters, if only for the wicked look and fun/background factor, of which I'm a fan.

I admit, first and foremost, the background and character of the Lizardmen as presented in their current army book is really what sold me initially on the Lizardmen, so even if some of their units and army builds are...less than top tier, at the moment, I'm still all in, and even look forward to the challenge somewhat. So even if the Lizardmen weren't as obviously powerful as they are(or can be), I have a good feeling that I'd still very much be on the verge of ordering my first reptilian models and working on army lists.

Again, thanks for all the replies here, it's so appreciated. Keep em' coming!

Lupercus

N810
01-10-2010, 18:39
Or you could skip the magic for the most part and stock up on anti-magic and magic defence.

Alltaken
01-10-2010, 18:59
Empire, Dwarf, Bret, DoC can easy go around without Lv4.
While HE and WoC also lack in core choice, they have more option to guard their Lv4; and they don't have the mandatory 1200~1800pts set up.

Dwarfs never had mages, so this doesn't fit the argument.

HE and WoC lack in core choice?! They lack versatillity, but they deffinetly don't lack core choice.

Spearmen with the aid of new magic spells rock!
WoC have incredible anvil warrios, cheap hordable killy marauders, and the very useful hounds, they have very good core I'd say

DarkstarSabre
02-10-2010, 06:27
Empire, Dwarf, Bret, DoC can easy go around without Lv4.



So the gunline armies, army with magic built into 75% of its characters and 25% of its units and heavy cavalry army don't need level 4s.

For 2 of those armies a level 4 augments them even further.
1 of those armies can't afford a level 4 in small games but makes up for that with a monster being the general.
And 1 of those armies never had mages in the first place.

The arguement kind of failed there.

kroq'gar
02-10-2010, 06:46
back on topic...

Saurus are amazing in this edition- their key weakness, initiative, is now reduced due to 'step up'. I run mine 5x3 with hand weapons (keeps them pretty cheap and more blocks means more versatility).

Also, the scar vet is easily the best 85 points you can spend for a hero lvl fighter in the game... I've tried running them with armour and great weapons... you can pack them into saurus units for a disctraciton (they may die and if they dont then they go to work and the units intact). Just keep them out of the challenge (use the champ).

Slann are amazing. Lore of life. templeguard. In my opinion the only suffering units under new edition are skinks, but thats more of a they are no longer overpowered.

Salamanders are amazing.

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 07:04
An alternative strategy is to run the units big, I like min 24 strong with spears.

They almost never break near a ld10 slann (dicipline standard) so your VPs are pretty much safe for the game. If my 2 saurus blocks and TG block are alive at the end of the game, which happens more often than not, then I am sitting on 1500VPs at least that my opponent has not been able to take.

It is also easier to buff a smaller amount of units, basically it is a different strategy, rather than trying to have many small or medium sized units to actually do multiple charges on units front and flank, you still with large ones that take the hit to the front with buffs cast on them.

With 2 saurus and the TG as my center I can take 3 charges easily enough, I then run skrox on their flanks normally.

I can buff the TG with regen, additional toughness for 1 unit of saurus and shield of thorns for the 2nd saurus unit.

Scar vets I haven't bothered with as they just cost so much, CC characters give less this edition than they did earlier. Ours don't even buff the unit with special abilities or additional ld.

With some buffs I imagine they can be good and the T5 of our scar vets does keep them alive, but the cost of even a cheap one with GW, LA etc costs as much as a small unit of saurus.

As for skinks, well i don't like the normal ones anymore, they tend to be at the enemies front, meaning they can be charged, with the average 4" moving infantry charging 11" this means that even if I am between the 11" and 12" magic zone where skinks can fire, I am still inclined to flee if charged, and the enemy will charge.

Granted they will only make the charge 45% of the time but it still seems like a steep cost to get a few shots in. With no more +1 to hit large targets they aren't as deadly either.

Now chameleon skinks on the other hand are amazing. With skirmisher -1 to hit, chameleon -1, adding either long range or soft cover pretty much every enemy hits them on a 6+, they won't really be shot at.

They can start 12" from the enemy and move 12" and fire!
Excellent war machine, large monster hunters.

Just insanely good vs monsters, you can move, be at long range and still double tap and poison on 6s, add to that if they charge you (if you chose to be in their front arc) you can stand and shoot for another double tap with 6s to poison.

So 4 shots per 12pt model (0.667 wounds on average) and the thing might still fail to make contact! Greater deamons will cry.

They also kill war machines really well. If you can afford to I would make them about 8 strong, that way you can actually get into CC with the war machines which stops them from firing (and you will win fairly often) also they cannot chase you so you really have little to lose.

Yea salamanders win games, they are really that good, take the max every time.

Xzazzarai
02-10-2010, 07:12
While HE and WoC also lack in core choice

First you say that Lizardmen are Not a top-tier, and Then you say that WoC lack in core?!
WoC are one of the few armies who can build an army of pure core units and still just walk over most things!
They've got Most Excellent core, probably the Best in the game!

Geez man, you need to get over here and play a few games! That might open your eyes =)

kroq'gar
02-10-2010, 07:18
@ Vsurma- im very careful though running point sink large blocks with initiative 1. Some oponents will magic the unit out of existance. I like to present many lessser targets, not to mention the chance to flank.

The 15 man blocks cost less than 200 points as well, so i sometimes even let them flee and be cut down to redirect. Only give some standards etc as well, this keeps them cheap and you can take many.... many many...

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 07:18
Pretty sure he meant core choices, or at least that is what I was talking about.

They have relatively few core choices, marauders and warriors, 2.
Fairly similar to our saurus and skrox, (if you count skrox)

But yea, 5pts for a GW marauder or 5pts for a skink, ws2 t2, well no comparison.

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 07:22
@ Vsurma- im very careful though running point sink large blocks with initiative 1. Some oponents will magic the unit out of existance. I like to present many lessser targets, not to mention the chance to flank.

The 15 man blocks cost less than 200 points as well, so i sometimes even let them flee and be cut down to redirect. Only give some standards etc as well, this keeps them cheap and you can take many.... many many...

Perhaps, but if you take the slann with cognition this almost never happens.
The large versions of the spells, purple sun, dwellers, pit are 21 or 25 to cast.

With a lv4 under the influence of cognition rolling an average of 19 that just won't happen. When it does happen once or twice during the game you can dispel or scroll them.

The smaller purple sun or pit can still come through but is less likely to kill whole units and again you can still scroll or dispel.

Init 1 on our army is pretty much the main reason I won't go to battle without a scroll (500pts s3 character being the other)

But I have found these spells to be a lot less dangerous since I use cognition. Without it they are horrible though and will wreck your army.

But sure, MME (multiple medium unit) is another viable strat I am sure. Saurus are one of the better units to do this with.

(though DE might still be able to pull off the large spells if they start rolling 7+ dice on a single spell)
In this case if you REALLY feared magic then you could take both a scroll and the cube of darkness

kroq'gar
02-10-2010, 07:22
except that the skink can kill the unarmoured marauder before he gets there....

Very true though, havent tried cognition.

However my version doesnt need a slann... hes worth like.. 50 saurus...

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 07:27
Well I understand playing without the slann out of pure taste, other wise I don't see a point.

For 325 points you could get a slann bsb with cognition and dispel scroll.

Taking a scarvet bsb and a scroll caddy priest is going to cost you 200 points anyway. For another 100 you get higher ld (heck take the dicipline banner for 15pts extra and you have ld10 cold blooded, best in the game) and you can take another lore with 4 spells.

Heimagoblin
02-10-2010, 07:28
Well, Lizardmen are definatly top 3-4, and can easily deal with any army save dwarf or empire gunlines (my loss and draw out of 40 or so wins) and thats only because I chose to take stegadons. I've found them to be a very characterful army with lots of EOTG (see lizardmen tactica) or scarveterans or units of 2-3 salamanders being used by some players and not others. I will give you a list of the units and my take on them.

Slann-Best wizard in the game bar none. Survivability combined with overwhelming magical offence and defence. You probably know this though!

Oldblood- Personally I prefer scarveterans, for pure points efficency. They can be ok if kitted to a specific role but I don't know much about that so i'll leave it to someone who uses or used them.

Skink Priest- Imo, 1 is basically mandatory, 2 is over the top. I choose to stick mine on an EOTG (which I have found to be my 2nd best unit after slann) with the also mandatory dispel scroll. Look at the last few pages of the lizardmen tactica for discussion about this.

Scar Veterans- I take one with crown of command, dragonhelm and luckstone and stick hin in a unit of sarus. HAving stubborn on another unit is useful, but if I had to drop 150 points of my 2500 list he would go. Another option is a great weapon and light armour for a 96 point combat monster.

Sarus- These guys will form your main battleline. I use 2 units of 24, one with spears and one with hw+shields. Great survuvability, life buffs, and ld 10 coldblooded from the slann who is odviously a BSB with standard of dicipline. They also really put out the hurt with 18-24 attacks at str 4.

Skinks- I always use a unit of 10 with javilins. Great for redirecting.

Templeguard- Again pretty mandatory to protect the slann. I use a unit of 20 (6*4) with the slann, and the banner of eternal flame.

Chamolean skinks- I really regret not being able to use these guys. Sometimes I swap them out for my scarveteran, just because they can deal with warmachines and monsters so easily.

Salamanders- Make lizardmen a serious threat in the shooting phase. I take 2 units of 1, most people take more!

Ancient Stegadons- I take them over normal ones every time due to a better howdah weapon, str 6 thunderstomp+impact hits+attacks, and an increased armour save. I always use 1, to complement the EOTG.

Thats all the unit I use or have seen used. There are many more that are also viable.

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 07:32
Drop the stegs and you no longer fear cannons, drop the skrox and you no longer fear mortars.

Add chameleon skinks and take out the war machines.

I don't think they are in any way impossible, but if you give them excellent targets then sure, if your down 800 points due to 2 stegs and a skrox unit or 2 dying to 2 turns shooting then sure.

If on the other hand the cannons are killing 3 saurus a turn while the mortars do the same well, I think you will do just fine.

kroq'gar
02-10-2010, 07:34
@ Vursuma my favorite part of the game is the big meat grinder combats through... forgo offense and just have one skink storing power into disp.. you can still get a fair number of disp dice to stop those vital combat turning hexes etc. so long as you let through some of the pain.

And if they wipe a block out you'v got plenty more. Im writing a list at the mo that doesnt even have a lord...

I like to not take a slann time to time. Other times I do use+
the big bad templeguard, and as of now just stole your ideas (cheers)

Vsurma
02-10-2010, 09:46
I had a conversation with another player at a tournament, he felt that since IF now also causes a miscast, cognition was worse than it was last edition. I really really! disagree, I would only occasionally take cognition last edition, people tended to have lots or no mages meaning if you negated 6s on 1 they could still cast with 1 or 2 others.

Not so much these days. Most armies have a lv4 or a lv4 and a lv2 (though not all)

If I negate the 6s from the lv4, sure the opponent can cast with the lv2 but it is less likely to have any good spells and in that case I have a +4 to dispel compared to his +2 to cast. I felt like I was cheating the last tournament I went to because my opponents couldn't cast at all really.

scarvet
02-10-2010, 12:51
Cognition is roll for every PD generate at the beginning of magic phase, thus it would on average making DD close to PD...which would be offset by bonus PD again......

I like the small block idea, but it is still a saurus horde. In fact I tried 3*12TG to replace other heavy hitters, but they cost too much for their output.

MSU Skink Cohorts (no Krox, they are just point sinks) rocks, but they can't win the game by themselves.

As for flying Slann, no 2++ range save hurts; Skink magic defense means less points for scar-vets (since Canosaur aren't as good and blade of reality really cripple oldblood's defense).

infernus31
02-10-2010, 13:20
Ive found lizardmen to be a very respectable list in 8th ed. There are some major changes in how the list shapes up compared to what was good in 8th (stegs not as widely available or really as good anymore :( )

The slann is always a powerhouse staple of my army-either light or life is good, i want to try light a bit more then life as i think it may help a lot more against some of the inherent weaknesses of the lizard men in intiative and weaponskill.

Saurus are a decent staple combat unit, they may hit last but with so many attacks from the front rank they hurt.

Skinks - always fun poision avoidance - hasnt changed really since 6th ed, except chameleons are worth the extra points to snipe war machines turn one

salamanders rock

stegs bust units but do have to be wary of the warmachines

skink priests are always fun to carry scrolls and more improtantly Cube (my fave item)

The lizardmen have always been my army of choice since 5th ed and they are still awesome, but then even if they were rubbish game wise- they're dinosaurs and thats cool

ewar
02-10-2010, 15:03
Cognition is roll for every PD generate at the beginning of magic phase, thus it would on average making DD close to PD...which would be offset by bonus PD again......


Not sure what you mean here?

Becalming Cogitation is where you nominate an enemy wizard with 24" and then any power dice they roll to cast with that come up 6 are ignored. You don't roll for powerdice and take them out at the start of the phase... it's only when casting.

With the now frequent 6 dice casting for mega spells it's a very useful ability.

scarvet
02-10-2010, 16:19
Not sure what you mean here?

Becalming Cogitation is where you nominate an enemy wizard with 24" and then any power dice they roll to cast with that come up 6 are ignored. You don't roll for powerdice and take them out at the start of the phase... it's only when casting.

With the now frequent 6 dice casting for mega spells it's a very useful ability.
I was thinking black coach:p

Tzeentch Lover
02-10-2010, 16:34
Slann with Lore of Life and the Focused Rumination.

You win.

kroq'gar
03-10-2010, 19:38
Slann with Lore of Life and the Focused Rumination.

You win.

bit simplified.. tried it... failed.. got off like two spells.. A slann is stuck with his winds rolls, and they will easily have a lvl 4 yours costs around 400 for a cheap one). I run my saurus blocks. I like my suraus blocks.

Vsurma
03-10-2010, 19:44
The reason the lore of life is nice is that even if you do roll poorly you still do just fine.

A roll of 1,1 will most likely see you get off 2 spells with your opponent dispelling 0.

2 spells is enough to turn the tide, say regen on 1 unit and +2 toughness on another etc.

I have had my opponents use their only scroll on phases where I had 3 PD! Rumination makes up for poor winds of magic rolls.

A roll of 1,1 is actually 2+2 vs 1 DD.
A roll of 2,2 can be 4*1+1 against 2 DD.

I wish fire was a better lore, it also has really cheap to cast spells but S4 just isn't good enough to do much.

kroq'gar
03-10-2010, 19:48
I just like to shy away from the magic... smashing things is just so much more satisfying... especially with the carni now small and frenzy reduced in handicap.

scarvet
04-10-2010, 00:30
I just like to shy away from the magic... smashing things is just so much more satisfying... especially with the carni now small and frenzy reduced in handicap.
Actually Carni is back to large thanks to LOS shooting rule. Frenzy was never a problem to me.

kroq'gar
10-10-2010, 14:41
Serious? baiting was way... way to simple