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Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 16:46
Basis for the Confusion/Question
I’m still reading through the rulebook, as it’s a rather hefty tomb, and I came across this question that I had with a friend of mine: What exactly constitutes an “unmodified” leadership? I can see a few interpretations of this, and would agree with most of them. I’m asking this question mostly to see what the War Seer community thinks about it. Basically, I think “unmodified” breaks down into two basic categories of interpretation:

1. Unmodified Leadership Die Roll
Anything that is added to or subtracted from the roll of two D6 I would consider a modifier. For example, the +1 leadership banner in the common magic items list, the -2 leadership banner in the daemon magic item list, Break Check penalties, and the Strength in Numbers Skaven special rule.

2. Unmodified Stat Line Leadership
The basic leadership value written in the stat line is the only value that can be used. A model’s “unmodified” leadership is its own leadership and a unit’s “unmodified “leadership is the highest leadership in the unit.

For the sake of Argument
I would argue that the first interpretation of “unmodified” is pretty much indisputable as otherwise the Steadfast rule would be absolutely pointless. An interesting side effect of this is that using this interpretation, a large unit of Steadfast Skaven in the general’s Inspirational Presence radius is testing on a leadership of 7, not 10. Unmodified means unmodified after all. The Steadfast rules don’t say “ignoring all negative modifiers” it just states “unmodified”.

The second interpretation is a bit more open. Consider this: The signature Lore of Death spell uses a model’s “unmodified” leadership plus a D6 roll. Take a Dark Elf War Hydra within the general’s radius. The Hydra’s stat line leadership is 6. However, the handlers are in the same unit and you always use the best leadership in a unit; and the handlers are leadership 8. Under the Inspiring Presence special rule, a model can use the general’s leadership instead of its own; the general is leadership 10. Which leadership do you use: 6, 8 or 10?

In Conclusion
Is using a higher leadership than you own counted as modifying your leadership or is modifying a leadership restricted solely to die roll bonuses and penalties? I could argue merits on both sides of the question. What are your thoughts?

Commence with the comments, rants, flames, and Nazis. :)

Atrahasis
04-10-2010, 16:49
Steadfast's wording was changed -- it no longer uses unmodified Ld, rather it ignores the penalty applied by the combat result.

Death magic uses unmodified Ld. That's the number on the model's profile.

SiNNiX
04-10-2010, 16:54
Edit: Atrahasis said it right before I did.

Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 16:59
Ah, damn FAQ's. I was planning on reading that after I read the through the rules first. Makes sense though.

I looked through the FAQ and didn't see anything that would clarify the Death Magic question though. What are you basing that off of?

SiNNiX
04-10-2010, 17:04
I looked through the FAQ and didn't see anything that would clarify the Death Magic question though. What are you basing that off of?

Because it's unmodified, not unmodified negatively. The basic stat of the model can't be modified, whether by IP or whatever.

This is why they changed the wording as it wasn't the correct intent. However, this brings me to a new thread.

Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 17:09
Because it's unmodified, not unmodified negatively. The basic stat of the model can't be modified, whether by IP or whatever.

This is why they changed the wording as it wasn't the correct intent.

You have me confused there with the "unmodified negatively".

What did they change and where? I’m not seeing anything in the FAQ relating to unmodified stats, which is the basis of my question.

Atrahasis
04-10-2010, 17:15
The errata changed Steadfast's wording to change it from unmodified to "Steadfast units don't apply the difference in combat result score to break tests".

As for the death magic question, unmodified means unmodified. If you change the value, then it has been modified.

Damocles8
04-10-2010, 17:20
even more confusing is applying Occam's Mindrazor to a unit subject to Inspiring Presence

SiNNiX
04-10-2010, 17:28
even more confusing is applying Occam's Mindrazor to a unit subject to Inspiring Presence

No, that's not confusing. The unit's Leadership becomes the General's Leadership, which is why Okkam's Mindrazor is effected by IP.

Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 17:37
I’m not arguing the Steadfast FAQ; that’s pretty cut and dry.

Personally, I agree with your interpretation that a model’s unmodified leadership is its own leadership on its stat line, but I got into an argument during Ard Boys about it. My opponent was rather peeved that I tried to kill his Hell Cannon (leadership 4) with death magic.

So in essence, Atrahasis and SiNNix are saying that both bonuses and penalties as well as using another model’s leadership count as modifying a leadership, not just bonuses and penalties.

To play the Devil’s Advocate here: A unit uses the highest leadership in that unit, so the Hydra would use the handler’s leadership. IP says a model’s leadership becomes the general’s leadership. That’s not modifying a leadership; that’s just using the highest leadership available. Anyone else want to argue this interpretation or is everyone agreeing that this is just plain wrong?

Makrar
04-10-2010, 17:59
SiN is for Leadership Tests only, Spirit leech is not a leadership test.

Anyways, armybook says i get to add +3, rulebook says I cant. This is a conflict annnnd guess what wins

Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 18:09
SiN is for Leadership Tests only, Spirit leech is not a leadership test.

Anyways, armybook says i get to add +3, rulebook says I cant. This is a conflict annnnd guess what wins

Strength in Numbers is the very definition of a modifier. I would say that you do not get to add this to any "unmodified" leaderships of any kind. (That being said, we've already covered the fact that the FAQ rewords Steadfast.)

Makrar
04-10-2010, 18:18
I agree with you, its an modifier in every sense of the word.


But if you think about it

Skaven player declares that his ld is 10 with SiN

Opponent says you cant use SiN for this unmodified test.

Now the players have a conflict. and the skaven player wins as of the rule that any conflicts between books and rulebook, the armybook takes preference.

Of course if the source of the unmodified test is from another armybook then its different, but the basic rulebook? No way.


Now as for the actual intent, I agree that its probably not ment to work like this but hey ho :p

Shas'O Vash
04-10-2010, 18:24
That's getting off topic a little, but I can so see a Skaven player saying that! The weedy little gits that they are...

stripsteak
04-10-2010, 18:32
I agree with you, its an modifier in every sense of the word.


But if you think about it

Skaven player declares that his ld is 10 with SiN

Opponent says you cant use SiN for this unmodified test.

Now the players have a conflict. and the skaven player wins as of the rule that any conflicts between books and rulebook, the armybook takes preference.

Of course if the source of the unmodified test is from another armybook then its different, but the basic rulebook? No way.


Now as for the actual intent, I agree that its probably not ment to work like this but hey ho :p
That is a disagreement between the players and not a rules conflict. It should be settled with discussion pre-game or if during a game a d6, then discussed later.

Makrar
04-10-2010, 18:51
That is a disagreement between the players and not a rules conflict. It should be settled with discussion pre-game or if during a game a d6, then discussed later.

So this rule



"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in the rulebook, and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book always take precedence (Page 11)

Is ignored and becomes a dice off?? :wtf:

Atrahasis
04-10-2010, 18:56
The SiN rule (a rule that modifies leadership for leadership tests) does not conflict with a spell that

a) directly says modifiers are ignored
b) isn't a leadership test

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2010, 19:15
Personally, I agree with your interpretation that a model’s unmodified leadership is its own leadership on its stat line, but I got into an argument during Ard Boys about it. My opponent was rather peeved that I tried to kill his Hell Cannon (leadership 4) with death magic.
That's a different matter because the hellcannon can normally use the dwarfs' Ld as they're part of the model.

The hellcannon is a little dubious as to whether it's a true split profile unit but chariots or war machine or any other split profile unit, yeah, you'd use the highest stat. There's definitely an argument that the hellcannon simply has the Ld of the dwarfs until they die, which is an entirely different issue to the one in this thread.

SiNNiX
04-10-2010, 22:02
That's a different matter because the hellcannon can normally use the dwarfs' Ld as they're part of the model.

The hellcannon is a little dubious as to whether it's a true split profile unit but chariots or war machine or any other split profile unit, yeah, you'd use the highest stat. There's definitely an argument that the hellcannon simply has the Ld of the dwarfs until they die, which is an entirely different issue to the one in this thread.

And we're discussing that in another thread! Yay! :)

I love Rules Forum.

stripsteak
04-10-2010, 23:18
So this rule


Is ignored and becomes a dice off?? :wtf:

what you outlined was a disagreement between the players on how the rules work. not conflicts between the rules themselves.

SiNNiX
04-10-2010, 23:49
Did stripsteak and Makrar just post the same posts twice? I think I just read the same thing twice... my head hurts!