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Rake
05-10-2010, 13:54
Im looking for some insight into a rather complicated rules question.
ASF is ASF. ASL is ASL. But what happens when they combine? They cancel. Ok. What cancels? The rule or the effect of the rule? Very important distinction. If I cancel the rule and the model no longer has either so if I were able to provide the model with ASF again would they ASF? (Think Grave Guard with Great Weapons next to a Corpse Cart and my casting VanHels on them).
Other interpretation is that the effect of the rule is cancelled but not the rule. Thus I cannot make an ASL model ASF, but then ASF models cant re-roll their hits against me as I have the ASF rule, even if not the effect because of my ASL weapons...

Any thoughts?

The Grim
05-10-2010, 13:57
Me 'ead hurts... Go away!

Munin
05-10-2010, 14:12
Much interesting questions, wish I had answers but I dont so I hope people will give them :).

Lordmonkey
05-10-2010, 14:15
A model with both ASF and ASL strikes at initiative value. The term "Cancels out" is relatively misleading in this context and, to the best of my memory, is not actually printed anywhere in the BRB.

N810
05-10-2010, 14:18
I believe it works something liike this:

if you have a great weapon and asf,
then you just strike at initive like a normal weapon.

if your guy has asf any the other guy has a guy
that says that yor guy allways strikes last...
(I think this is where they realy changeed some rules....)
now they strike at the same time...?

narrativium
05-10-2010, 14:39
That's not the OP's question. If you have ASF and ASL, they cancel out, so if you have both rules and your opponent has ASF, your opponent gets all the advantages of that - no problem there.

The OP's question is: what if you have two sources of ASF and one of ASL. Does ASL cancel them both?

N810
05-10-2010, 14:40
I don't think those abilites stack....

a18no
05-10-2010, 14:57
That's not the OP's question. If you have ASF and ASL, they cancel out, so if you have both rules and your opponent has ASF, your opponent gets all the advantages of that - no problem there.

The OP's question is: what if you have two sources of ASF and one of ASL. Does ASL cancel them both?

According to the new FAQ and errata, if it's not specifically said, special rules don't stacks (all of those who can stacked are FAQ now). So no ASF stacking, sorry.

mishari26
05-10-2010, 15:35
I think the 2 rules themselves doesn't "disappear" from the model. just their "effects".

which means regarding your enemy having ASF, does he get rerolls or not? I don't see why he shouldn't, because your ASF's effects are ineffectual.

I'll explain. Yes you have ASF rule, and ASL rule. so their effects are both ignored. and you strike in Init order, but you still have them. so when your enemy has ASF, he should still be able to reroll misses because your ASF has no effect, and doesn't counter your attacker's.

Kalandros
05-10-2010, 16:45
ASL only kicks in when you strike.

So you grant yourself ASF from Vanhels and ASF from Corpse Cart.
Two of the same special rule (some exceptions of course) cannot stack.

So you have ASL and ASF (ONCE)

You get to close combat phase, you strike: Both rules negate each other, you strike at Initiative value with your great weapons, no rerolls for equal or higher initiative, though you would get rerolls for vanhels even if the ASF part is cancelled!

Yrrdead
06-10-2010, 01:50
Lets look at this sequentially shall we.

pg 66 ASL

[...] If a model has both this rule and ASF, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

So you either have this situation;
Option A
1. Grave Guard w/ Great Weapons Special Rules = ASL
2. Magic Phase Miasma cast w/in 6" Special Rules = None (ASF + ASL)
3. Magic Phase Van Hels cast on unit Special Rules = ASF


Or Option B
1. Grave Guard w/ Great Weapons Special Rules = ASL
2. Magic Phase Miasma cast w/in 6" Special Rules = ASF + ASL
3. Magic Phase Van Hels cast on unit Special Rules = ASF + ASL + rerolls (VanHels)

Since I don't believe that the OP's question has been answered directly , I'll go ahead.

It is option A. The rulebook tells us specifically that the two special rules cancel out. Therefore there is no "stacking" of special rules. There is a very sequentially order in which these special rules are gained. Which would grant the OP's Grave Guard with Great Weapons ASF.

stripsteak
06-10-2010, 02:14
there is nothing to indicate the sequence of gaining special rules matters at all in their application.

also your application does go against the no stacking rule, you are applying two occurrences of asf to the model. one to cancel the asl and one to gain asf. asf does not state otherwise so a model can't be affected by two copies of the same special rule.

Chris_
06-10-2010, 02:23
The model still has ASF and ASL, just the effects cancel out (so giving it ASF again does nothing). A unit with ASF striking a unit with ASF+ASL would get re-rolls if I is higher or equal as usual because the effect (ability) that ASF special rule confers is cancelled by the ASL.

Lord Inquisitor
06-10-2010, 02:43
Agree with Chris_. ASL+ASF have both rules so you can't stack them again. However if you have ASF against a cancelled pair, it is effectively ASF against normal initiative, so you get rerolls.

Yrrdead
06-10-2010, 04:10
@Strip - The sequence matters IF cancel means well cancel. If you take cancel to not really mean cancel then I agree 100% that sequence would be irrelevant.

@Chris_ & LI

So when it says "the two cancel out and neither applies..." what that is really saying is "the two effects cancel out and neither applies..."?

If that is the case I understand and agree.

Chris_
06-10-2010, 04:22
@Chris_ & LI

So when it says "the two cancel out and neither applies..." what that is really saying is "the two effects cancel out and neither applies..."?

If that is the case I understand and agree.Yep, the way I read "cancel out" is that they render each other ineffective not that they actually lose both rules.

Hashulaman
06-10-2010, 08:10
How would that work with Chakax? He has a great Weapon and makes you strike last If you are a High elf lord with a Great weapon and higher I anyways would you go first?

T10
06-10-2010, 12:19
From the warhammer rulebook errata:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1330084a_FAQ_WarhammerRulebook_2010_v1.pdf

Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

I take this to mean that a model that does not gain any additional benefit from having Always Strike First twice.

-T10

Ghal Maraz
06-10-2010, 12:23
How would that work with Chakax? He has a great Weapon and makes you strike last If you are a High elf lord with a Great weapon and higher I anyways would you go first?

AFAIK, Speed of Asuryan works regardless of weapons (only): so, I guess this mean that if a High Elf gets ASL from another source, it is indeed subject to it and the two rules "cancel one another".

But I could be totally wrong!:D

Chris_
06-10-2010, 12:50
How would that work with Chakax? He has a great Weapon and makes you strike last If you are a High elf lord with a Great weapon and higher I anyways would you go first?This has been FAQ:ed. Chakax now gives the opponent ASL in a challenge, therefore this cancels out the High Elf lords ASF gained from Speed of Asuryan. He now strikes at I value without re-rolls. The Speed of Asuryan works like normal ASF except it doesn't matter what weapon you are wielding, i.e. it just nullifies the ASL that a GW gives.

Edit: Ghal Maraz, you are correct.

N810
06-10-2010, 12:58
How would that work with Chakax? He has a great Weapon and makes you strike last If you are a High elf lord with a Great weapon and higher I anyways would you go first?

7th ed FAQ
"Chakax goes first" :D

8th edition FAQ
(Summed up)
High Elves go first :wtf:

Chris_
06-10-2010, 13:01
7th ed FAQ
"Chakax goes first" :D

8th edition FAQ
(Summed up)
High Elves go first :wtf:Yep, that's the way it is now. If they had left it alone Chakax would have gone first but the HE lord would have gotten the re-rolls.

Kalandros
06-10-2010, 17:38
Well yeah, because Chakax' Always Strikes Last forced upon enemies negates the High Elves' Speed of Asuryan but the High Elves still have higher Initiative. They lose the rerolls though!