PDA

View Full Version : Master of Black Arts and maximum power dice



damiengore
05-10-2010, 16:19
I had a game against a VC player and he claimed that his Vampires with MoBA generate their power dice at ANY time during the magic phase and that they do NOT count towards the 12 dice maximum for the phase.

Is this correct? I couldn't find anything in the FAQ's or erratas to do with it.

g

mishari26
05-10-2010, 16:55
some very cheesy Highelf players are claiming the same thing with some of their PD generating items like Banner of Sorcery (+D3 PD), Annulian Crystal (+1 DD, -1 PD for enemy), Jewel of the Dusk (+1 PD).

I think this isn't RAI.. as all abilities and items that generated PD or DD were always done at the beginning of the phase in the past.. plus the 12 cap would almost become pointless.

yet RAW it seems legal. :shifty:

Sloppyjayman
05-10-2010, 17:18
I play Vampire Counts. The dice are generated at the beginning of the magic phase. So if you take Master of the Black Arts and you roll and 11 or 12 on the winds of magic, the extra dice are wasted.

Memnos
05-10-2010, 17:22
I play Vampire Counts. The dice are generated at the beginning of the magic phase. So if you take Master of the Black Arts and you roll and 11 or 12 on the winds of magic, the extra dice are wasted.

Awesome! I'd love to see that in print. Can you point to the page that says the extra dice are generated at the beginning of the magic phase so I can tell my opponents that?

mishari26
05-10-2010, 17:29
unfortunately it does not say "..at the beginning of.." in many of these items/powers.

that's where the whole cheese stench is coming from.

In my own playgroup we're very adamant in house-ruling that these abilities all occur at the start of the magic phase. I'm just pointing out the RAW p.o.v of it.

Lord Inquisitor
05-10-2010, 17:36
"The Vampire generates an additional 2 power dice for iterslf in each of its own Magic phases."

Presumably, this is done at the same time as channelling. It doesn't say at any point in the magic phase, suggesting that this happens conveniently in the middle of the magic phase is certainly abusive and the "it doesn't say I can't" argument is rather weak. Compare with the Crimson Gem of Lahmia that says "At any time in the Magic phase, the bearer may sacrifice a Wound to gain one power dice." That's absolutely clear that you can do it later in the phase.

Yes, it could probably be FAQed to prevent people trying to claim this, but the intent of the power limit is very clear. Pulling this one in a tournament is likely to lose you sportsmanship points, anywhere else, it'll lose you the respect of your opponents.

Extra power/dispel dice abilities are absolutely mint in the current edition, more powerful arguably than last. They do not need to be more powerful. Take your twelve dice and be happy about it.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
05-10-2010, 17:46
What LI said.

If it bothers you, then pack up your minis and find someone else to play :)

mishari26
05-10-2010, 17:50
The main problem is that we always assumed that power dice generation happens at the start of the magic phase. however, when the awful rules writing of GW came and attempted to clarify things further with this FAQ question:

Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.

Rules-lawyers took off screaming "see???!!! they said AT THE START OF THE MAGIC PHASE! IF THE ITEM DOES NOT STATE THE TIMING, THEN IT CAN BE DONE ANY TIME DURING THE MAGIC PHASE".

and I personally think this particular FAQ question was intended to address a question that arose on some forums back in June/July just before the FAQs came out about the extra "free dice" which comes from a Slann's Rumination ability, or a Dragon Mage's Reckless ability. but.. we're stuck with what we have now.

again, I think the RAI is clear, but that won't stop some cheesy player from claiming that this is RAW to generate his PD whenever he chooses.

Skjoldr
05-10-2010, 18:06
The thing is, it's not 12 dice per phase. You can only have 12 in your pool at a time. Now obviously ones generated at the beginning before casting would be wasted if you already had 12. But if you have an ability that allows you to add dice later in the magic phase, it is 100% legal.

Lord Inquisitor
05-10-2010, 18:12
Yes, we can agree on that. So an item like the Crimson Gem as I posted earlier in the thread, certainly can be used to get extra power dice later in the phase once you drop below 12.

The question is about abilities like Master of the Black Arts, which doesn't specify whether its used at the start of the Magic Phase (as is implied) or can be used later.

a18no
05-10-2010, 18:21
The problem is in 2 possibility:

1- If a timing is not specifically covered, it is when you want
2- If a timing is not specifically covered, it is at the ONLY moment you normally add dice to your pool, so after you generate your dices.

Considering that we must play in a fair-play minding, if I find someone that absolutly want to play with #1 in mind, i'll take my figs back.

Lord inquisitor got it right, many poeple are bringing the "no rule prevent me from doing it, so I can". But it's certainly not the way to go, go read the p.2 rules!

Good games

Malorian
05-10-2010, 18:23
Right now with RAW you could get around the system, but unless you taking a lot of it you typically won't go over 12 PD anyway.

Treat such players that use such tactics as you would any other jerk (don't play or break out your empire army with a dozen warrior priests).

Aglemar
05-10-2010, 19:40
I think another big issue along with the power dice limit would also be miscast avoidance. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you hold back the power dice and generate them in the middle of the turn after you start casting, would this not protect them from any power dice draining miscasts as well? That alone would make me feel this isn't likely the way to play it.

Malorian
05-10-2010, 19:47
I think it's clear that it isn't RAI.

Kevlar
05-10-2010, 22:03
I don't think there is any way to get around generating them at the beginning of the phase. You only generate dice at the beginning of the magic phase. Once you begin casting spells there is no more dice generation allowed. The faq specifically mentions when items that generate dice are allowed to be used. After winds of magic, but before any spells are cast. The only items that can be used to generate dice during the casting (or dispelling) of a spell specifically say so in their description.

MoTBA is not an extra power stone that can be used in every magic phase whenever you want. If you roll high on the winds of magic the extra dice are lost.

If someone forgot take their MoTBA dice at the beginning of the phase I wouldn't allow them to generate them later. Nothing in the MoTBA item description allows it to over ride the warhammer rulebook FAQ.

tsegaming
05-10-2010, 22:25
I agree with Kevlar. You only generate dice at the beginning of the magic phase, unless it is a specific item that says otherwise.

ChrisIronBrow
06-10-2010, 05:29
I don't think there is any way to get around generating them at the beginning of the phase. You only generate dice at the beginning of the magic phase. Once you begin casting spells there is no more dice generation allowed. The faq specifically mentions when items that generate dice are allowed to be used. After winds of magic, but before any spells are cast. The only items that can be used to generate dice during the casting (or dispelling) of a spell specifically say so in their description.


wow, none of that is true. The rules do not actually say that. Your inserting "at the beginning of the phase". The issue is far from answered by an FAQ that doesn't mention the issue were talking about.

Kevlar
06-10-2010, 12:50
wow, none of that is true. The rules do not actually say that. Your inserting "at the beginning of the phase". The issue is far from answered by an FAQ that doesn't mention the issue were talking about.

"After generating the winds of magic dice and before casting spells" is quite clear in the faq. No where does it say items may be used to generate additional dice after spell casting has begun. Only certain specific items allow that, which say so in their item description.

narrativium
06-10-2010, 12:52
So, can you dispel RiP stuff, generate more dice with the item/rule, then start casting?

Shas'O Vash
06-10-2010, 13:23
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Winds of Magic" thing specifically the 2D6 roll?

Munin
06-10-2010, 13:55
If someone forgot take their MoTBA dice at the beginning of the phase I wouldn't allow them to generate them later. Nothing in the MoTBA item description allows it to over ride the warhammer rulebook FAQ.

Except:
1) Army books trump BRB
2) It doesn't specify timing.

Also, the FAQ is about items that specify "at the beginning of the phase". It doesn't apply to these items, see 2.

Shas'O Vash:
Yes that would be Winds of Magic, nothing else.

mishari26:
I think its kinda funny how you are presenting all good RAW arguments in your post except one line where you say you disagree and then call RAWers "very cheesy" :)


As for the matter, if someone choose to use the items later in the phase to get more dice they wouldn't be breaking any rules as far as I see it. However its prolly not RAI and many people would not like it.

But a good way is always to discuss it with your opponent in the beginning and if it isnt even possible to decide by a die roll then at least you dont have to unpack your figures if you one of the players are so childish/sensitive they cant come to a conclusion.

Kevlar
06-10-2010, 14:36
Thats a great argument. My armybook doesn't specify when i do something so that trumps the rulebook that explains exactly when i do.

My armybook doesnt specify when i make close combat attacks so i am going to make mine in the shooting phase.

Munin
06-10-2010, 14:54
Thats a great argument. My armybook doesn't specify when i do something so that trumps the rulebook that explains exactly when i do.

My armybook doesnt specify when i make close combat attacks so i am going to make mine in the shooting phase.

Fair enough, maybe there isn't anything to trump in the BRB since the item doesn't exist there nor refer to any BRB rule. However, well by now you already know that BoS, MotAB says "during the magic phase", not "at the beginning of the magic phase" nor "after Winds of Magic and before the first spell is cast" but "during the magic phase". This makes your FAQ reference invalid since it refers to those items.

a18no
06-10-2010, 15:42
So, can you dispel RiP stuff, generate more dice with the item/rule, then start casting?

Nice finding, but if you say that you can dispel remain in play "during" the magic phase, and generating is where everything start, you can argue in both way.

1- You generate dice in the magic phase, so could potentially dispel a remain in play BEFORE having any dice.. :p, so interrupting certain generation (channeling, special ability) is possible
2- Everything start with the generation. You start by that, and then you can do what you want. And all the generation capacity are done at the same time, with no priority.

I think the way to go is 2, more fair-play in my mind. But can't find a way to remove 1.

But that goes in the same problem as the unkillable high elf archmage who dispel is dragon form before counter attack. Will you really try to do that... And how many time you actually COULD do it.

Yellow Commissar
06-10-2010, 16:54
Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.

This really seems to answer the question for me. Master of the Black Arts says "during". During means during, it doesn't mean "at the start". :wtf:

You can claim "RAI, RAI!" all you want, but "RAI" ain't in the rulebook.

That said, I'd be happy to play a house rule that all power dice are generated before any casting or dispel attempts are made, but it's still a house rule, not the rules.

So, yes, Master of the Black Arts may be used during the magic phase. Yes, you may roll winds of magic, dispel a remains in play spell, cast a spell, miscast, lose dice from the pool, and then use Master of the Black Arts to add 2 dice. The rules specifically allow this.

Lord Inquisitor
06-10-2010, 17:39
But it is conspicuously different from items like the Gem that specify "at any time in the magic phase."

Could one not argue that "during the magic phase" should be interpreted as during the power dice generation part of the magic phase, given that this is the only time you can generate powerdice? There's a clear difference in wording between MotBA and the Crimson Gem in the same armybook. I'm not convinced that they mean the same thing.

Shas'O Vash
06-10-2010, 18:06
All the current army books were written for 7th edition where all power dice generation explicitly happened at the beginning of the phase. In 8th edition the only power dice that are explicitly generated at the beginning of the phase are the Winds of Magic, and any other source that explicitly says so. So does all power dice generation happen at the beginning of the phase? Implicitly: yes. Explicitly: no. The magic item descriptions in the army books don’t say anything regarding the actual point in the phase because when the books were written they didn’t have to. So by RAW, go ahead and generate them at any point you want to. RAI, as always, is up to interpretation and discussion depending on your view point and preferred army.

That being said, if a VC player generates dice with MotBA later in the phase to push his number of available power dice over 12 I’m going to feel significantly less sympathetic when I eventually (hopefully) kick his army's ass back to Sylvania!

mishari26
06-10-2010, 18:15
@LordInquisitor, unfortunately there's no wording that can save this argument from the cheese. GW simply did a bad job here. RAW does not specify when dice generation by certain items is done.

The only defense we have is that "it's always been done this way". Which doesn't really stand up in a court of RAW :p

stripsteak
06-10-2010, 18:28
"After generating the winds of magic dice and before casting spells" is quite clear in the faq. No where does it say items may be used to generate additional dice after spell casting has begun. Only certain specific items allow that, which say so in their item description.
Except that faq question only pertains to special rules that generate dispel dice at the beginning of the phase, which MotBA isn't.


But it is conspicuously different from items like the Gem that specify "at any time in the magic phase."

Could one not argue that "during the magic phase" should be interpreted as during the power dice generation part of the magic phase, given that this is the only time you can generate powerdice? There's a clear difference in wording between MotBA and the Crimson Gem in the same armybook. I'm not convinced that they mean the same thing.

Sure you could interpret it that way since winds of magic is during the magic phase it does fit to generate them them. but why take such a narrow view on it just because different items are worded differently? winds of magic is a specific power dice generation event common to all armies, that doesn't mean it should be a conglomerate of all power dice generation sources. without a direct connection like the beginning of phase faq


All the current army books were written for 7th edition where all power dice generation explicitly happened at the beginning of the phase. In 8th edition the only power dice that are explicitly generated at the beginning of the phase are the Winds of Magic, and any other source that explicitly says so.
This is not entirely true. 7th ed has the same situation as 8th. the rule book only mentions the specific power dice generation of wizards and pool dice a la winds of magic and channeling. nothing to indicate when items should be used, its always been left up to the items to specify. 7th however didn't have a 12 dice at a time limit, or miscasts stealing power dice. It was largely inconsequential when power dice were generated, so people generally just did it all at the start of the phase.....err nevermind reread and missed something my bad ignore this last paragraph...but its still a bad wayt o argue for how to do things in 8th. especially since they addressed items that generate power dice at the beggining of the phase in the faq and didn't do anything for other power dice generating items.

Shas'O Vash
06-10-2010, 18:36
This is not entirely true. 7th ed has the same situation as 8th. the rule book only mentions the specific power dice generation of wizards and pool dice a la winds of magic and channeling. nothing to indicate when items should be used, its always been left up to the items to specify. 7th however didn't have a 12 dice at a time limit and so it was largely inconsequential when power dice where generated, so people generally just did it all at the start of the phase.

I don't have any books with me but I think MotBA wording is something like, "the caster generates 2 extra power dice." So this item kicked off when the wizard in question generated his dice. Wizards no longer generate dice in 8th edition.

Don't jump all over me too bad if my memory isn't that good though.

Kevlar
06-10-2010, 18:39
Except that faq question only pertains to special rules that generate dispel dice at the beginning of the phase, which MotBA isn't.


Oh now I see! Vampire powers are not special rules! Thank you for clearing that up.

I suppose for Games Worshop to avoid all the rules lawyers out there they will have to drop the phrase "special rules" and specifically name each and every vampire power, chaos gift, etc since as you say these are clearly not "special rules"

Hahahahaha!

DarcinCole
06-10-2010, 18:42
I play vampire counts, I believe the Vampire FAQ states that the MOTBA dice count against the power limit. I interpreted this to mean that counting the MOTBA dice happens at the start of the magic phase when the winds of magic are rolled for.

If they could be used at any time there would be no real point in them counting against the power limit would there?

stripsteak
06-10-2010, 18:43
Oh now I see! Vampire powers are not special rules! Thank you for clearing that up.

I suppose for Games Worshop to avoid all the rules lawyers out there they will have to drop the phrase "special rules" and specifically name each and every vampire power, chaos gift, etc since as you say these are clearly not "special rules"

Hahahahaha!
not what i was saying
MotBA is not a special rule that generates dice at the beginning of the phase like the question says its a special rule that generates dice during the magic phase like MotBA says

theunwantedbeing
06-10-2010, 18:52
MotBA generates dice for the bearer in the magic phase.
Doesn't specify when.

So as per RAW you can do it whenever you like.
Although RAI you may well have to generate them at the start of the phase, but untill an Errata says so, your free to play RAW.

I think a more fun question is can the power pool go below 0?
If not then losing D6 dice after using up your last dice, then using something like MotBA(as RAW) could potentially allow you to avoid suffering those lost dice.

Korraz
06-10-2010, 19:06
"By RAW, it never generates power dice, as it doesn't specify when."

This intepretation is also valid. So, what now? :)

RanaldLoec
07-10-2010, 01:15
4 plus it saves time gets the game moving cuts down on arguments.

Chris_
07-10-2010, 01:32
By RAW you could probably argue that you can get it at any time during the magic phase. I would give the player two choices:
1. Continue argue this and we roll off.
2. Stop and we can keep having a friendly game.
If the player is playing HE (banner of sorcery) then there is only one thing that I can say:
Then please re-roll your hits ;)

Anyway, obviously one of those loop-holes that happened because of a 7th ed. item in 8th ed. gameplay. RAI should be easy here.

Synnister
07-10-2010, 02:28
Seems to me that since our wizards no longer generate Power dice, how can you generate ADDITIONAL power dice?

Chris_
07-10-2010, 02:38
Seems to me that since our wizards no longer generate Power dice, how can you generate ADDITIONAL power dice?Channeling is generating extra PD.

Lord Inquisitor
07-10-2010, 02:55
Ergo additional dice are generated at the channelling step? Tenuous I realise but it makes sense.

soots
07-10-2010, 03:46
Back before the first Chaos incursions, the old ones created the Slann, who shaped the continents and aligned the stars with their magic.

The slann are also responsible for designing the magic phase, and in hence doing so, made it so theyre basically the only ones that can start using more and more dice as the magic phase continues. Whereas other armies have a 12 dice limit, slann start adding dice to basically every spell and this never counts towards the limit.

If you dont believe me, play against a powered up slann and see if you can survive a magic phase without suffering catastrophic losses.

Chris_
07-10-2010, 03:57
Back before the first Chaos incursions, the old ones created the Slann, who shaped the continents and aligned the stars with their magic.

The slann are also responsible for designing the magic phase, and in hence doing so, made it so theyre basically the only ones that can start using more and more dice as the magic phase continues. Whereas other armies have a 12 dice limit, slann start adding dice to basically every spell and this never counts towards the limit.

If you dont believe me, play against a powered up slann and see if you can survive a magic phase without suffering catastrophic losses.It always counts against the 12 PD limit, read the FAQ. They are insane anyway as this mostly only comes in to play for the first spell you cast and if you got 12 PD from the beginning of the phase.

mishari26
07-10-2010, 05:50
Their runmination extra dice counts against the limit only if they had 12 dice in the pool at the given point in time. so basically a slann would only likely lose 1 extra dice on his 1st spell due to the 12 cap.

Chris_
07-10-2010, 06:12
Their runmination extra dice counts against the limit only if they had 12 dice in the pool at the given point in time. so basically a slann would only likely lose 1 extra dice on his 1st spell due to the 12 cap.Or a less likely situation when he plays Lore of Death and kills a bunch of guys, rolls a lot of 5+ and then gets 12 again during the phase. That is why I said "mostly", maybe should have said "almost always" :)

Kriegschmidt
07-10-2010, 12:08
Hi, I played my first VC game last night and no doubt made hundreds of errors....

I agree that the MotBA dice have to be rolled at the start, at the same time as rolling for the Winds of Magic: it's a permissive ruleset, which means that you have to be able to point to a rule that allows you to break the "normal running" of the game. I.e., since it doesn't specifically state that you are allowed to generate the extra dice at any time, and since the FAQ does specifically say that "The extra dice count against the power limit, but may only be used by the Vampire", I think it's safe to say that the dice have to be generated at the same time as the Winds of Magic roll.

I have to confess that one of the (no doubt many) mistakes I made last night when fumbling my way through the rules for the first time was that missed the bit in the FAQ about the MotBA dice counting against the power limit. However if I remember correctly, I never ended up with more than 12 dice :)

Kriegschmidt
07-10-2010, 12:44
Apologies for the bold and italic bits below: it's not me being angry, it's just to help mark out the important bits in a long post :)


Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.

This really seems to answer the question for me. Master of the Black Arts says "during". During means during, it doesn't mean "at the start". :wtf:

No. It doesn't say "during". It says:


The Vampire generates an additional Power dice for itself in each of its own Magic phases

Note that nowhere does it say that you may do this at any time (I'll come back to this later in this post). I'm leaving aside any implications that individuals may perceive, as this is purely about RAW (i.e. what we're supposed to if in doubt, which we clearly are).


So, yes, Master of the Black Arts may be used during the magic phase. Yes, you may roll winds of magic, dispel a remains in play spell, cast a spell, miscast, lose dice from the pool, and then use Master of the Black Arts to add 2 dice. The rules specifically allow this.

No they don't specifically allow this. Specifically allowing you to do that would require.... specifically telling you that you can generate these dice at a time other than that the time for generation specified by the rulebook, e.g. something like: "These additional dice may be generated at any time during the Vampire's own magic phase". That's an example of specifically allowing you to do this. What you're talking about is doubt within the explanation, and taking that doubt as a clue that you're allowed to break the normal running of the rules (i.e. power dice generated at the start of the Magic Phase).

Let's clarify the running order of the Magic Phase, to shed more light on this:


MAGIC SUMMARY
1. ROLL FOR WINDS OF MAGIC
2. CAST
3. DISPEL
4. SPELL RESOLUTION
5. NEXT SPELL
Repeat steps 2 through 4, etc...

Step 1 (Roll for Winds of Magic) is further broken down into the following order of events:



-Roll 2D6 to determine the strength of the Winds of Magic
-THE POWER POOL (i.e. number of power dice = total rolled for the Winds of Magic)
-CHANNELLING POWER DICE
-DISPEL POOL (i.e. number of opponents' dispel dice = the highest D6 roll of the Winds of Magic roll)
-CHANNELLING DISPEL DICE

So what we do know from this? That power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase. And what else do we know? That unless you have a rule which specifically allows you to act outside of the rulebook's rules, you have to follow them. Referring you to my quote from the MotBA entry above and leaving out any implications that we may or may not see, it does not specifically state that you can do this at any time. So there is a strong argument here that we are bound by the rulebook's rule that power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.

Remember that the ruleset binds you to the rules, unless you have specific permission to do otherwise. Not: the rulebook allows you to operate freely around the rules, unless you have a specific instruction not to do so.


Except:
1) Army books trump BRB

Only when you have a rule which specifically contravenes the rulebook's rules. It does not give you carte blanche to bend them.


2) It doesn't specify timing.

Exactly. If it doesn't specify timing, it does not allow you to veer from the rulebook's rules. Quite the opposite: it requires you to default to the rulebook's rules, which are (see above for order of Magic Phase) that power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.


Also, the FAQ is about items that specify "at the beginning of the phase". It doesn't apply to these items, see 2.

Wrong. It only doesn't apply if it specifically says that it doesn't apply.


But a good way is always to discuss it with your opponent in the beginning and if it isnt even possible to decide by a die roll then at least you dont have to unpack your figures if you one of the players are so childish/sensitive they cant come to a conclusion.

I agree, I think that this is most important.

mishari26
07-10-2010, 16:31
So what we do know from this? That power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.

respectfully (because I highly admired the cool manner of your response), I don't see how you can deduce the above statement. Sure SOME PD are generated at the Winds of Magic step, but why does it have to be ALL PD?

and before I continue I wanna say I too agree that all PD-generating items should be done at the beginning of the phase, however, my opinion is not according to RAW.

Your deduction that all PD-generation has to happen at the time of Winds of Magic (unless stated otherwise) is not based on any text in the BRB that I can find.

Lord Inquisitor
07-10-2010, 17:18
Sure you could interpret it that way since winds of magic is during the magic phase it does fit to generate them them. but why take such a narrow view on it just because different items are worded differently? winds of magic is a specific power dice generation event common to all armies, that doesn't mean it should be a conglomerate of all power dice generation sources. without a direct connection like the beginning of phase faq
Narrow view? I would think that it's a broad view, given that I'm trying to look at the rules as a whole.

Different items are worded differently because they're intended to have different effects. MotBA and Crimson Gem are found in the same armybook and are clearly intended to have different effects. MotBA just "generates" dice, so that's one thing but the fact that it doesn't specifiy at any point in the magic phase like the Crimson Gem does, implies that it doesn't generate them at any time. The Crimson Gem has always been intended to generate a "gotcha" extra dice, at the considerable cost of an automatic wound. The MotBA is not "gotcha" dice, merely extra dice added to the pool for use by the wizard. The rulebook specifically says that you can't breach the 12 dice maximum by magic items or abilities unless they generate later in the phase and the (unfortunately poorly worded) FAQ suggests that this happens at Winds of Magic or channelling steps.

I can't find a cast-iron RAW way of proving this, but it is nevertheless obviously the correct interpretation of the rules, even if one has to resort to calling it RAI or a house rule.

damiengore
07-10-2010, 18:45
Okay obviously an issue that has some grey area.

Well I didn't make a big stink about it because he weemed like a nice chap and we had a great game.

The fact he was generating 4 extra power dice in a 1500pt game was admittedly an advantage but I wouldn't say it completely lopsided the game.

I'd chock up my loss to the fact I never used my nets on either of my NG hordes, forgot to dispell Curse of years (that's 20 dead NG's!) and that I forgot to use my warbosses potion of toughness in the critical challenge!

Still it ended up being a 608VP to 375VP loss, hardly a pantsing!


Another Grey area that showed up was Waaaghing and testing for stupidity. Both are done at the beginning of the players turn. We diced to see which took precidence, he won the roll and my general waaaghed out of range of teh trolls, who promptly failed their stupidity test and stumbled along!

thanks for the debate but obviously a grey area.

cheers

kaulem
07-10-2010, 18:58
When two things are stated to happen at the same time, (like stupidity & Waaagh) the player whose turn it is decides the order.

Can't quote the page number, I dont have my rulebook.

Munin
07-10-2010, 19:32
So what we do know from this? That power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.
respectfully (because I highly admired the cool manner of your response), I don't see how you can deduce the above statement. Sure SOME PD are generated at the Winds of Magic step, but why does it have to be ALL PD?

Your deduction that all PD-generation has to happen at the time of Winds of Magic (unless stated otherwise) is not based on any text in the BRB that I can find.

Im agreeing with mishari here. I really liked your response as well, manners and argument. But I also agree with him on his counter point. Ill get back to that in a bit.



No they don't specifically allow this. Specifically allowing you to do that would require.... specifically telling you that you can generate these dice at a time other than that the time for generation specified by the rulebook, e.g. something like: "These additional dice may be generated at any time during the Vampire's own magic phase". That's an example of specifically allowing you to do this. What you're talking about is doubt within the explanation, and taking that doubt as a clue that you're allowed to break the normal running of the rules (i.e. power dice generated at the start of the Magic Phase).


Part 1 of the magic phase

So what we do know from this? That power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase. And what else do we know? That unless you have a rule which specifically allows you to act outside of the rulebook's rules, you have to follow them. Referring you to my quote from the MotBA entry above and leaving out any implications that we may or may not see, it does not specifically state that you can do this at any time. So there is a strong argument here that we are bound by the rulebook's rule that power dice are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.

Remember that the ruleset binds you to the rules, unless you have specific permission to do otherwise. Not: the rulebook allows you to operate freely around the rules, unless you have a specific instruction not to do so.
This I totally agree (except that in bold), and I haven't seen it like this before. Very good argument. However the bold part, since I got the book at hand I can't really find any thing in the rules that support this to any greater extent. What I found was:



The magical phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn.
This could be something, but it doesn't specify anything, it could refer to total power (WoM, Channeling, items, etc) or just the "tapping" of Winds of Magic.



The Power Pool
It just says this and which one could think includes all PD generation.
But the problem is it doesn't mention anything about generating PD except from channeling.

However, the section below:


The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase - any dice generated beyond this limit are lost.

This limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the Winds of Magic, channeling, from magic items, special abilities and so on.l
This is the first time gaining PD from other than WoM and channeling is mentioned and is in the context of the 12 PD limit that is applied throughout the phase. I read this as if you have an item that gives extra PD you can't still break the 12 PD limit further in the phase even if you use e.g. an item.





Also, the FAQ is about items that specify "at the beginning of the phase". It doesn't apply to these items, see 2.
Wrong. It only doesn't apply if it specifically says that it doesn't apply.
I dont really follow you here. The FAQ specifically asks about items that generate PD at the start of magic phase and these don't specify that. Are you meaning that they are since they are defaulting to what (you think) the BRB says? If so, then I get your point.


Anyway, I get your point about items being defaulted to BRB if nothing else is mentioned. However there isnt anything to default to since it isnt mentioned more than what I quoted above. If they were to amend the BRB and just say "After channeling the player generates remaining PD from other sources" I would agree that being enough. However they should probably make it even clearer.

Gidion
07-10-2010, 19:58
Hmm... fun fact... Looks like DD generated by Empire Warrior Priests are worded in a similar way. Though it wont rly matter since you can only get 6 dice from WoM. Whats even funnier though is that as far as i can see there is no limit to how many times you can generate dice. SO in reality you only need one Priest to always have 12 dice...

mishari26
08-10-2010, 07:20
Whats even funnier though is that as far as i can see there is no limit to how many times you can generate dice. SO in reality you only need one Priest to always have 12 dice...

hahaha true true ;)

Kriegschmidt
08-10-2010, 11:54
respectfully (because I highly admired the cool manner of your response), I don't see how you can deduce the above statement. Sure SOME PD are generated at the Winds of Magic step, but why does it have to be ALL PD?

Because the nature of a permissive ruleset is that you can only do something if the rules specifically tell you you can. There is no freedom to "do what you like" in the absence of a specific instruction, in fact the opposite is true. So you have to default to the BRB, and if the rules describe the generation of power dice as happening at the start of the Magic Phase (see Winds of Magic), then any power dice you generate in your turn (regardless of source) have to be done at this point, unless you can point to a rule which says you can do it at other times. Which we can't.

And thanks for the compliment :)


Im agreeing with mishari here. I really liked your response as well, manners and argument.

Also thanks for the compliment :)


I dont really follow you here. The FAQ specifically asks about items that generate PD at the start of magic phase and these don't specify that. Are you meaning that they are since they are defaulting to what (you think) the BRB says?

Yes. In the absence of another rule (i.e. there's nothing that tells you to generate these power dice at a different time), you have to default to the rules. Because WH is a permissive ruleset, you cannot take lack of specification to mean freedom of choice, which is what some people are trying to argue here (i.e. that "it doesn't say when you do it, so that means you can do it when you like"). This is the antithesis of a permissive rules system.


Anyway, I get your point about items being defaulted to BRB if nothing else is mentioned. However there isnt anything to default to since it isnt mentioned more than what I quoted above.

Hmmm, I think a little common sense is required here. The Winds of Magic part concerns the generation of power dice. MotBA concerns the generation of additional power dice. Since there is nothing else* in the rules which tells you when to generate these dice, the nature of the rule system means that you are restricted by the ruling on the subject of power dice, which is that they are generated at the start of the Magic Phase.

*again, not being angry, just highlighting :)

mishari26
08-10-2010, 12:31
Because the nature of a permissive ruleset is that you can only do something if the rules specifically tell you you can. There is no freedom to "do what you like" in the absence of a specific instruction, in fact the opposite is true. So you have to default to the BRB, and if the rules describe the generation of power dice as happening at the start of the Magic Phase (see Winds of Magic), then any power dice you generate in your turn (regardless of source) have to be done at this point, unless you can point to a rule which says you can do it at other times. Which we can't.

users of MotDA and Banner of Sorcery are not "doing what they like". they're following the instructions of their items. which is simply to produce dice in the magic phase. it does not specify when.

the fact the Winds of Magic happens at the start of the magic phase does not mean ALL other PD generation has to happen then as well. again I respectfully ask you, why are you lumping all PD generation together?

Winds of Magic is a specific kind of PD generation. and fortunately GW were kind enough to be specific on when it happens.

Also they told us when channeling happens.

But GW did not tell us when other kinds of PD generation happen. also they did not say that ALL PD generation happens at the start of the magic phase. that's the whole problem. if it was clear we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

Banner of Sorcery: "The banner adds +D3 Power dice to your pile in each of your own Magic phases".

it does not say when. and I again request where in the BRB does it say that "all PD generation happens at the start of the phase with WoM"?

And ofcourse I agree that common sense (which is how our group intends to play it) is against this argument, and we are fully in agreement that all PD generation "should" be done in the start. but it's simply not RAW unfortunately.

Chris_
08-10-2010, 12:43
Hmm... fun fact... Looks like DD generated by Empire Warrior Priests are worded in a similar way. Though it wont rly matter since you can only get 6 dice from WoM. Whats even funnier though is that as far as i can see there is no limit to how many times you can generate dice. SO in reality you only need one Priest to always have 12 dice...Seriously? It says you can add one, not two (if it isn't a Arch Lector), not three and most certainly not more. With your reasoning any model with the "Extra Attack" special rule would get an A value of infinity because there is nothing in the rules about me not getting to apply that SR several times?!?!? Please... This is getting ridiculous.

Kriegschmidt
08-10-2010, 12:54
the fact the Winds of Magic happens at the start of the magic phase does not mean ALL other PD generation has to happen then as well. again I respectfully ask you, why are you lumping all PD generation together?

I've already answered this directly more than once, further up. I'm not going to repeat myself again :)


But GW did not tell us when other kinds of PD generation happen. also they did not say that ALL PD generation happens at the start of the magic phase.

Correct, they didn't. And you're still casually ignoring the fundamental principle of WH and 40k as permissive rulesets, which is that if it doesn't specifically say you can, then you can't.


that's the whole problem. if it was clear we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

Absolutely, it goes without saying that it's not entirely clear, hence the discussion. But in the absence of a sentence telling us when to do it, we have to work out what the best thing to do is. And, like it or not, we are restricted by the "if it doesn't specifically say you can...." principle which I mentioned above.


Banner of Sorcery: "The banner adds +D3 Power dice to your pile in each of your own Magic phases".

it does not say when. and I again request where in the BRB does it say that "all PD generation happens at the start of the phase with WoM"?

You're ignoring the restrictions imposed by a permissive ruleset. Where in the rules does it say that you can generate MotBa power dice at a time other than when the other power dice are generated? Answer: nowhere. I refer you to the "if it doesn't...." principle again.


And of course I agree that common sense (which is how our group intends to play it) is against this argument, and we are fully in agreement that all PD generation "should" be done in the start.

Then why are we having this discussion....? :p

Gidion
08-10-2010, 13:57
Seriously? It says you can add one, not two (if it isn't a Arch Lector), not three and most certainly not more. With your reasoning any model with the "Extra Attack" special rule would get an A value of infinity because there is nothing in the rules about me not getting to apply that SR several times?!?!? Please... This is getting ridiculous.

LOL im not saying that i would ever play it like this. In fact i am of the opinion that you should always go with RoI and if you and your opponent cant agree just roll for it. Having said that the only reason why i even brought it up is cause MoBA clearly tells you you can only activate it once each enemies magic phase while there is no suck limitation placed on Blessings of Sigmar. And as far as i know there is no universal rule that says special rules can only be activated once. Also i would argue that Extra attack do not work in this way since it is a permanent effect where as Blessings of Sigmar have to be triggered...

Chris_
08-10-2010, 14:31
LOL im not saying that i would ever play it like this. In fact i am of the opinion that you should always go with RoI and if you and your opponent cant agree just roll for it. Having said that the only reason why i even brought it up is cause MoBA clearly tells you you can only activate it once each enemies magic phase while there is no suck limitation placed on Blessings of Sigmar. And as far as i know there is no universal rule that says special rules can only be activated once. Also i would argue that Extra attack do not work in this way since it is a permanent effect where as Blessings of Sigmar have to be triggered...:cries: Please direct me to the rule that lets you use it more than once? This is not a game where you can do whatever you please if there is no rule for it. The special ability clearly states it adds a number of dice to the Empire player's dispel pool, that number being 1 for WP and 2 for AL. There is NOTHING in there that lets you add more.
That example was not something that I would argue work, just to try and make you understand what a silly argument it is to be able to do stuff as many times as you want just because there is no universal rule forbidding it.

Gidion
08-10-2010, 14:59
:cries: Please direct me to the rule that lets you use it more than once? This is not a game where you can do whatever you please if there is no rule for it. The special ability clearly states it adds a number of dice to the Empire player's dispel pool, that number being 1 for WP and 2 for AL. There is NOTHING in there that lets you add more.
That example was not something that I would argue work, just to try and make you understand what a silly argument it is to be able to do stuff as many times as you want just because there is no universal rule forbidding it.


OK im sry if i wasn't clear. Firstly i am agreeing with your stance on this.

Having said that, the reason why i think Blessing of Sigmar could be interpreted in a way where you could trigger it multiple times in the magic phase lies in the word invoke in the descriptions of the rules for it.

Invoke implies an action taken by the player and there are no limitations on how often you can invoke except that the WP can not, at the time, be fleeing and must be present on the battlefield. Now you are right that there are no rules that say you can use a special rule more then once nor is there one that tells the opposite. However, if we continue to read the Warrior Priest rules we come to the Prayers of Sigmar where it is clearly stated you can only use the "effect" once. Further more MoBA also clearly states you're only allowed you use it once / phase. Now if one rule states a limitation to the number of uses but the other do not why is it false to assume that the latter can be used multiple times?

Lex
08-10-2010, 15:47
I think Lord Inquisitor had a cursory mention of this earlier, but here's what I think is a good RAW argument for the MotBA being counted at the beginning. The ability specifically says "generate 2 additional dice". Since they are "additional" they must be generated when the wizard can actually generate an inital die. In 8th edition, a wizard only actually "generates" dice when they channel. The Winds of Magic is not the wizard generating dice. Ergo, the MotBA, Warrior Priests, etc. are generated during the channeling step. The vampire can't generate "additional" dice later since he never generates an intial die later in the phase. Now I know some might argue what about when the wizard doesn't roll a 6. He is still generating "0" dice and so it still works.

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 19:43
I think Lord Inquisitor had a cursory mention of this earlier, but here's what I think is a good RAW argument for the MotBA being counted at the beginning. The ability specifically says "generate 2 additional dice". Since they are "additional" they must be generated when the wizard can actually generate an inital die. In 8th edition, a wizard only actually "generates" dice when they channel. The Winds of Magic is not the wizard generating dice. Ergo, the MotBA, Warrior Priests, etc. are generated during the channeling step. The vampire can't generate "additional" dice later since he never generates an intial die later in the phase. Now I know some might argue what about when the wizard doesn't roll a 6. He is still generating "0" dice and so it still works.

I like that interpetation!

ChrisIronBrow
08-10-2010, 21:10
Since they are "additional" they must be generated when the wizard can actually generate an inital die.

That's just not true. If it is, what page does it mention that? Additional means extra, in addition to. If I have an additional job, I do not have two jobs back to back. Additional makes no claim on timing.

mishari26
08-10-2010, 21:19
other items are even messier than MotDA or BoS.

take Annulian Crystal for example:
"During the enemy's Magic phase, the crystal allows the High Elf player to remove one dice from the opponent's pile of Power dice and add it to his own Dispel dice pile."

so even if we find helpful words like "additional" in MotDA, or "..adds.." in BoS, other items or abilities that give PD may not be so helpful.

The matter is simple guys, GW did not specify timing. and it was not intentional. GW simply write loosely worded rules that often leave gaps and loopholes for misinterpretation.

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 21:27
That's just not true. If it is, what page does it mention that? Additional means extra, in addition to. If I have an additional job, I do not have two jobs back to back. Additional makes no claim on timing.

It is strongly implied, however. This was never an issue before because the wizards generated power dice at the start of the magic phase and noone (to my knowledge) tried to claim that these items were used at any other time, not that there was much incentive to, but it was clear that MotBA was added at the beginning rather than mid-phase. "Additional" dice generation presumes a dice generation to start with and you add the additional dice to that. Saying this doesn't happen during dice generation step is really pushing things - again, we're back to "it doesn't say I can't, so I can."

What's changed in 8th to start this debate? The wording of MotBA hasn't, nor has the fact that wizards "generate" power dice at a particular step in the magic phase, it's just that now it's a potential generation not a guaranteed one. All that's changed is that people don't want to generate their dice at the beginning because of the pesky 12-dice limit so they're looking to break the wording down to gain an unfair advantage by circumventing the limit that's explicitly designed to prevent items and powers giving you more than 12 dice.

Kevlar
08-10-2010, 22:46
It is strongly implied, however. This was never an issue before because the wizards generated power dice at the start of the magic phase and noone (to my knowledge) tried to claim that these items were used at any other time, not that there was much incentive to, but it was clear that MotBA was added at the beginning rather than mid-phase. "Additional" dice generation presumes a dice generation to start with and you add the additional dice to that. Saying this doesn't happen during dice generation step is really pushing things - All that's changed is that people don't want to generate their dice at the beginning because of the pesky 12-dice limit so they're looking to break the wording down to gain an unfair advantage by circumventing the limit that's explicitly designed to prevent items and powers giving you more than 12 dice.

Exactly, and motba even specifically mentions it can not break the 12 die power limit, but someone always wants to be the **** in the punch bowl.

Lex
09-10-2010, 00:56
That's just not true. If it is, what page does it mention that? Additional means extra, in addition to. If I have an additional job, I do not have two jobs back to back. Additional makes no claim on timing.

You probably should pay more attention to what I posted instead of being condescending. The "claim on timing" as you put it is supplied by "The Vampire generates..." in the description of Master of the Black Arts. So, if it's "extra, in addition to" what "The Vampire generates", then it must occur during channeling.

sulla
09-10-2010, 02:40
The matter is simple guys, GW did not specify timing. and it was not intentional. GW simply write loosely worded rules that often leave gaps and loopholes for misinterpretation.

Unfortunately, they also didn't specify that the controlling player chooses when it occurs either. Which would mean there's a conflict over timing, which would mean...players decides only in his turn. Which would make defensive items (extra dice/steal a dice etc) useless because the other player would choose not to have them work until after he had finished casting...

Seems to me that of the two possible ways you could reason out the items to work, only one is actually functional.

Synnister
09-10-2010, 03:20
What's changed in 8th to start this debate? The wording of MotBA hasn't, nor has the fact that wizards "generate" power dice at a particular step in the magic phase, it's just that now it's a potential generation not a guaranteed one. All that's changed is that people don't want to generate their dice at the beginning because of the pesky 12-dice limit so they're looking to break the wording down to gain an unfair advantage by circumventing the limit that's explicitly designed to prevent items and powers giving you more than 12 dice.

I think this is the crux of the argument. Given the overwhelming power of items that give straight power dice, it seems that giving them free reign whenever you want pushes them to limit of broken.

Lord Inquisitor
09-10-2010, 03:29
Exactly, and motba even specifically mentions it can not break the 12 die power limit, but someone always wants to be the **** in the punch bowl.

Yeah, this is true. Given that they specifically errata'd it to state explicitly that the dice from motba count towards the power limit, shame they didn't explicitly state they're generated at the beginning of the magic phase too. But I'd guess it hadn't even occurred to them (to be fair, it never occurred to me before I saw this thread!).

ChrisIronBrow
09-10-2010, 09:04
You probably should pay more attention to what I posted instead of being condescending. The "claim on timing" as you put it is supplied by "The Vampire generates..." in the description of Master of the Black Arts. So, if it's "extra, in addition to" what "The Vampire generates", then it must occur during channeling.

Actually, if you reread the rule the only mention of "timing" is the phrase "during" which is entirely unhelpful, as that only specifies at any time in the magic phase.

In terms of condescension, well it gets frustrating dealing with people who won't read the rules and instead make **** up to fit in with whatever they want to believe. This rule applied to any other phase wouldn't even raise a question. If I can shoot "during" the shooting phase, I'm not required to shoot at the beginning, middle or end of the shooting phase.

If you can find a rule that says all power dice must be generated at the beginning of the magic phase, well you'd be right. Go ahead, what page is that on?

Lex
09-10-2010, 14:15
Actually, if you reread the rule the only mention of "timing" is the phrase "during" which is entirely unhelpful, as that only specifies at any time in the magic phase.

In terms of condescension, well it gets frustrating dealing with people who won't read the rules and instead make **** up to fit in with whatever they want to believe. This rule applied to any other phase wouldn't even raise a question. If I can shoot "during" the shooting phase, I'm not required to shoot at the beginning, middle or end of the shooting phase.

If you can find a rule that says all power dice must be generated at the beginning of the magic phase, well you'd be right. Go ahead, what page is that on?

Page 30. "Generate" is only stated under "Channeling Power Dice" and "Channeling Dispel Dice". This is the only time it occurs during the magic phase. This is the rule. Anything that overrides it must be explicitly stated. The only thing that you can argue regarding MotBA is that it implies it. I don't think it does but for the sake of argument we'll say it does. Implication is far short of explicit. In the end I think the majority feel that RAW and RAI in this case is that you use MotBA at the beginning as it was always done up to the release of 8th. I also would think based on the previous FAQ that if GW does finally address the issue they will say at the beginning of the phase. Why try and push the issue when you know how much frustration will occur? If you're a VC player, just play it at the beginning of the phase. Develop tactics to best use it that way. Everyone will be much happier in the game and you'll have a leg up in a tournament against those who don't.

ChrisIronBrow
09-10-2010, 23:01
Page 30. "Generate" is only stated under "Channeling Power Dice" and "Channeling Dispel Dice". This is the only time it occurs during the magic phase. This is the rule. Anything that overrides it must be explicitly stated.


Good, than the argument is settled. Motba says "during the magic phase", not "at the beginning of the magic phase while channeling power dice."

jamano
10-10-2010, 06:18
ex·plic·it
adj \ik-ˈspli-sət\
fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent

How is saying it happens during the magic phase explicitly stating that it doesn't happen at the beginning of the magic phase when channeling power dice? Do you know when the beginning of the magic phase when channeling power dice happens? During the magic phase!

ChrisIronBrow
11-10-2010, 01:13
How is saying it happens during the magic phase explicitly stating that it doesn't happen at the beginning of the magic phase when channeling power dice? Do you know when the beginning of the magic phase when channeling power dice happens? During the magic phase!

It doesn't.

Which is what I'm saying. I might be wrong. However that doesn't make my opposition right.

The rules tell me to shoot "during the shooting phase" Am I required to fire all weapons at the beginning? or can I fire some in the middle? or maybe at the end? In the case of shooting the distinction doesn't seem to matter, in the Magic phase it does.

Foxbat
11-10-2010, 02:16
In my local area we use that unless the magic items indicates that it must be used at the start of the turn, the player is free to activate it at anytime during the phase.

The reason for this is fairly simple; any wording like “during the magic phase” can’t be construed as occurring only at one specific point in the phase when other items clearly do have such wording. Obviously, if GW wanted these items to only operate at the start of the Magic phase they would have said so and amended the affected items accordingly.

DenWhalen
11-10-2010, 03:01
Obviously, if GW wanted these items to only operate at the start of the Magic phase they would have said so and amended the affected items accordingly.

Except that the army books were written before the BRB and GW is horrible about clearing up unclear rules, despite the FAQ's. When the VC army book was written, wizards generated power dice at the beginning of the magic phase. The issue was moot then because there was no limit on power dice, but with the transition to 8th, people are trying to abuse a lack of language that was completely unnecessary at the time.

Foxbat
11-10-2010, 03:16
Except that the army books were written before the BRB and GW is horrible about clearing up unclear rules, despite the FAQ's. Maybe, but they decided not to adjust the wording of any of these items. Given they touched several other magic items in the HE army book; it is difficult to argue that they did not intend them to be used at any point.

Chris_
11-10-2010, 03:27
Maybe, but they decided not to adjust the wording of any of these items. Given they touched several other magic items in the HE army book; it is difficult to argue that they did not intend them to be used at any point.There are tons of stuff they haven't changed which needs an update. GW is notorious for leaving lots of things that don't really work unchanged and up to the players.
Has it occurred to you that it might even be the case that this kind of outright rule abuse was something that didn't even cross their minds?

Classius
11-10-2010, 05:02
Do not know if this has been stated but in the FAQ, it says "PG. 88 Master of the Black Arts: Add "The extra dice count against the power limit, but may only be used by the vampire"". To me that says its at the beginning of the phase since it counts towards the power limit, that would not be need to be said if they could be added at any point.

Just a thought not an argument.

ChrisIronBrow
11-10-2010, 07:01
There are tons of stuff they haven't changed which needs an update. GW is notorious for leaving lots of things that don't really work unchanged and up to the players.
Has it occurred to you that it might even be the case that this kind of outright rule abuse was something that didn't even cross their minds?

See, that's the point. Your argument is irrelevant. This thread isn't about how might have they chosen to word it if they wanted it to work this way.

It's a rules discussion, discussing what's written in the book.

You may not like the rule, that's fine. Just be honest about it.

jamano
11-10-2010, 07:38
You didn't really address the fact that there is only one time wizards generate dice, and that it is at the beginning of the magic phase, and that to go around that it has to explicitly override the brb. Instead you ignored it like you accuse everyone else of.

I think part of your problem is that you think you can do something unless the rules say you can't when it's really that you can only do it if the rules say you can. We don't get confused about shooting because its very clear that during the shooting phase you attack with your units capable of it. Nowhere does it say you just use whatever ability you want whenever you want regardless of what it does. Master of the black arts isn't even an ability you use, so I don't know why you think you could use it later to create dice. Items like the vortex shard say "use at the beginning of your opponents magic phase blah blah"

Kriegschmidt
11-10-2010, 10:34
What's changed in 8th to start this debate? The wording of MotBA hasn't, nor has the fact that wizards "generate" power dice at a particular step in the magic phase, it's just that now it's a potential generation not a guaranteed one. All that's changed is that people don't want to generate their dice at the beginning because of the pesky 12-dice limit so they're looking to break the wording down to gain an unfair advantage by circumventing the limit that's explicitly designed to prevent items and powers giving you more than 12 dice.

Very strong logic: looking at the context in which the VC book was written. As you rightly point out, nothing has come along to say that you can start using this ability differently, and as we all know, in WH in order to do something you have to be told that you can.


Actually, if you reread the rule the only mention of "timing" is the phrase "during" which is entirely unhelpful, as that only specifies at any time in the magic phase.

In terms of condescension, well it gets frustrating dealing with people who won't read the rules and instead make **** up to fit in with whatever they want to believe. This rule applied to any other phase wouldn't even raise a question. If I can shoot "during" the shooting phase, I'm not required to shoot at the beginning, middle or end of the shooting phase.

Your comparison is not relevant: there is nothing in the rules which says, states, explains or even implies that you must fire all your shots at a specific point in the phase. Conversely however, the only BRB reference to "generating power dice" is at the start of the Magic Phase.


The rules tell me to shoot "during the shooting phase" Am I required to fire all weapons at the beginning? or can I fire some in the middle? or maybe at the end? In the case of shooting the distinction doesn't seem to matter, in the Magic phase it does.

In fact, to dismantle your argument further, the BRB says on page 38:


PHASE SEQUENCE
Nominate one of your units that you want to shoot with and select one enemy unit you wish your unit to shoot at. Once you have declared your target, resolve shooting using the rules described.

Then proceed to the next unit that is shooting and continue as above until you have shot with everything able to do so.

So as you can see, the BRB gives you explicit (not implicit) permission to perform this action repeatedly, over the entire course of the Shooting phase. And (I'm going to choke on repeating this), as we know, in order to do be able to do something the rules have to explicitly give you permission, otherwise you cannot do it. Like it or not, this is the keystone of the rules and you cannot deviate from this without breaking them.

Chris_
11-10-2010, 13:35
See, that's the point. Your argument is irrelevant. This thread isn't about how might have they chosen to word it if they wanted it to work this way.

It's a rules discussion, discussing what's written in the book.

You may not like the rule, that's fine. Just be honest about it.Dude... I was not talking to you. Someone was arguing that they didn't FAQ because they wanted it to work at any time during the magic phase. I just said that it might not even have occurred to them that people would try to bend the rules over and backwards to get an advantage so that person's argument was really moot.

A small quote, pg. 29:

The Magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn. The player whose turn it is (the casting player) will be seeking to draw down enough power to cast his spells, whilst his opponent (the dispelling player) will be gathering magical energy to dispel any spells being cast.

So you draw all power in the start of the magic phase as per the rules (also implied under "Power Limit" pg. 30). Now I want you to show me where it says that you are allowed to do it differently with Banner of Sorcery or any of the other "unclear" examples. If you can not do this you are wrong.

Lex
11-10-2010, 19:12
Well, finally been answered by the FAQs. Has to be used at the beginning.

Lord Inquisitor
11-10-2010, 19:35
Shock horror, FAQ resolves this in the way that we all knew was the correct way of playing it. :rolleyes:

stripsteak
11-10-2010, 19:47
Shock horror, FAQ resolves this in the way that we all knew was the correct way of playing it. :rolleyes:
which isn't always what the rules say :D

jamano
11-10-2010, 20:42
which isn't always what the rules say :D Just cause it was in the FAQ doesn't mean it worked the other way before the FAQ, stuff that isn't errata can just be clarifications for stubborn people.

Chris_
11-10-2010, 23:25
Awesome, no everyone can rejoice, no more arguing! (about this anyway)

Ghostinthemachine
12-10-2010, 06:42
Shock horror, FAQ resolves this in the way that we all knew was the correct way of playing it. :rolleyes:

I was going to say " Give up, your just flogging a dead horse ", but sanity prevails.:)

mishari26
12-10-2010, 09:15
actually...........

the FAQ question still angers (edited) me. first it has some grammar issues here and there, its a bit incoherent. but more importantly, it says "special rule"... does this include magic items like Banner of Sorcery??? sheesh.. I hope no one starts again on this.

Kriegschmidt
12-10-2010, 09:28
actually...........

the FAQ question still pisses me off. first it has some grammar issues here and there, its a bit incoherent. but more importantly, it says "special rule"... does this include magic items like Banner of Sorcery??? sheesh.. I hope no one starts again on this.

@mishari26: a word of warning: read the forum rules and posting guidelines (http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=the_forums#faq_rules) before posting anything else (in other words, avoid swearing and use capitalisation where appropriate please)

Back on topic: where am I looking...? I've just downloaded the FAQ document (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440046a_FAQ_VampireCountsV1_2.pdf) again (says, "Last updated 29th September 2010") but I can't see anything that answers this.... It is still early though.... :D EDIT: Ah, I've found it in the rulebook FAQ.

I can't say I'm the least bit surprised at the ruling though, and rarely have I been surprised at an FAQ. And all it does is dash my last bit of faith in people trying to wring an ounce of rebellion out of an arguably slight ambiguity of the rules, in the face of overwhelming common sense and logical argument.

mishari26
12-10-2010, 09:33
oops. I wasn't aware I was swearing! was I? which word? apologies anyway.

and this is the FAQ question (pasted as is, with the incoherency):

Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at
that doesn’t state when they are added or specifies they are added at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.

Kriegschmidt
12-10-2010, 09:38
oops. I wasn't aware I was swearing! was I? which word? apologies anyway.

Here's a clue: it's in the sentence below....

the FAQ question still pisses me off
....and it's not, "FAQ" ;)


and this is the FAQ question (pasted as is, with the incoherency):

Thanks, I edited my post to say that I had found it.

theorox
12-10-2010, 10:20
If you go by the wording of the item/ability/rule and not what it appears to mean, i for one think you are doing this wrong. MoBA should generate the powerdice at the beginning of the magicphase as said in the FAQ, no matter what the vague wording can be bent to mean.

I really hope nobody is using this for real, i and i suspect many else would just say "Okay i guess..." to get on with the game rather than argue about if for an hour, but i probably would'nt want to play you very often when using that ability again, as i feel it completely breaks the most important rule, wich is the spirit of the game. For simplicity, add all additional PD/DD at the start of the phase, to a maximum of 12. That is worth so much more than trying to get a petty advantage because of the rules' "Wording" being different than the example in the FAQ.

Theo

theorox
12-10-2010, 10:22
Here's a clue: it's in the sentence below....

....and it's not, "FAQ" ;)



Thanks, I edited my post to say that I had found it.

Congratulations on your 2000'nd post mate! :D

Theo

Kriegschmidt
12-10-2010, 10:23
I really hope nobody is using this for real, i and i suspect many else would just say "Okay i guess..." to get on with the game rather than argue about if for an hour, but i probably would'nt want to play you very often when using that ability again, as i feel it completely breaks the most important rule, wich is the spirit of the game. For simplicity, add all additional PD/DD at the start of the phase, to a maximum of 12. That is worth so much more than trying to get a petty advantage because of the rules' "Wording" being different than the example in the FAQ.

I think you've just perfectly summed the meanings of "common sense" and "sportsmanship" but also why you're going to find yourself falling out with a lot of people on Warseer :D

I think this is done now, move along.

mishari26
12-10-2010, 10:32
I would love for this to be done. I'm on the side of generating all PD/DD at the start of the phase from the very beginning.

but this won't stop others from arguing.

So again. do magic items like "Banner of Sorcery" fall under the word "special rules"? if it doesn't.... God help us. :cries:

theorox
12-10-2010, 10:44
Thank you good Sirs, they are lying when they say that Warseer is a big snake's nest full of mungos. :)

And i would treat Banner of Sorcery the same, as well as Power Familiar and all other things, as i think that seems to be the point of GW's ever-so-clumsy FAQ and Errata. I'm sure it will show up in there sooner or later. :D

Also, Kriegschmidt, that goes in my sig! (If i can fit it in, damned 7 lines...*grumble*)

*Edit: yes it did, half of it at least!

Theo

stripsteak
12-10-2010, 20:56
I would love for this to be done. I'm on the side of generating all PD/DD at the start of the phase from the very beginning.

but this won't stop others from arguing.

So again. do magic items like "Banner of Sorcery" fall under the word "special rules"? if it doesn't.... God help us. :cries:

don't forget the FAQ only applies to special rules you yourself have, not any of your models :shifty:. 'If I have a special rule...' :D really the FAQ update was poorly edited.