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SgtTaters
07-10-2010, 04:25
The unbeatable, unstoppable whirlwinds of carnage that always get beat, stopped, and killed by the protagonists of the story, which is no.1?

Off the top of my head, the Eldar Avatar seems most popular. You can't wear power armor without having once strangled one to death.

So what are all the instances of an Avatar being killed?

How does the death count for greater daemons match up? Does a greater daemon of a particular god die the most often?

Ork Warbosses, Chaos Lords, Exarchs, how often have they died?

Zond
07-10-2010, 04:33
To provide the honest and boring answer; it's the humble Imperial Guardsman. If we're counting characters or HQ choices, just choose one out of the codex.

If it's not a military or Codex inspired choice then the award goes to the average citizen of the Imperium.

SgtTaters
07-10-2010, 04:35
To provide the honest and boring answer; it's the humble Imperial Guardsman. If we're counting characters or HQ choices, just choose one out of the codex.

If it's not a military or Codex inspired choice then the award goes to the average citizen of the Imperium.

I should clarify, I'm looking for big bad combat monsters that are all "it's unbeatable we're all doomed!" and then the hero punches it, not the grunts that are expected to die.

Zond
07-10-2010, 04:38
Then I'd change to an Ork Warboss. Orks get slaughtered in droves and someones got to keep the hordes in charge.

Hellebore
07-10-2010, 04:49
I compiled a list a while ago:


Alaitoc's Avatar gets killed by Calgar in codex space marines.
Ulthwe's Avatar gets killed by Fulgrim in Fulgrim (perhaps one of the single stupidest deaths ever written).
Iyanden's Avatar gets killed by some carnifexes in Codex Tyranids. This is an UTTER retcon. Originally the Avatar killed the synpase leader of the swarm, SURVIVED the battle and brought victory to Iyanden. But apparently he's not allowed to survive a battle. No, now fleshy squishy Yriel gets to do all that and the Avatar gets to die under the feet of a carnifex stampede. :eyebrows:
Saim Hann's/Biel Tan's Avatar gets defeated by IG in Planetstrike. It kills some guardsmen and then gets blown off a bridge...
An Avatar gets possessed (:wtf:) by a Keeper of Secrets INSIDE a craftworld. Codex Chaos Daemons.
Sanguinor kills one in codex Blood Angels.

Technically the Doom of Malan'ti kills an avatar by killing an entire craftworld singlehandedly.


So that's 6, 7 if you include the Doom's defacto kill. All since the release of Codex Chaos Daemons/Fulgrim (both published in 2007). So that's an average of 2 Avatars a year written into 40k publications specifically to be killed by some thing/one. It is hard to believe that kind of concerted effort to be accidental.

As for other combat creatures, the blood angels codex has bloodthirsters being defeated in it. The 1st battle for armageddon has bloodthirsters defeated, but at the cost of almost 100 grey knight terminators. This is a debateable inclusion as it's not a situation where 'Calgar Punch!' is employed. loss on both sides.

Hellebore

Müller
07-10-2010, 05:37
In a single book quite a few Gargantuan Squiggoths and normal Squiggoths were taken out by a small combat team of Black Templars and one of their dreads...

The Judge
07-10-2010, 09:33
Imperator Titans have one of the most hilarious track records - almost every book one appears it is destroyed or completely crippled.

FarseerMatt
07-10-2010, 10:11
How does the death count for greater daemons match up? Does a greater daemon of a particular god die the most often?

Not sure, but I can see Bloodthirsters being the most popular choice.



So that's 6, 7 if you include the Doom's defacto kill. All since the release of Codex Chaos Daemons/Fulgrim (both published in 2007).

Must resist urge to derail thread with rant about exactly how many things were wrong with the stories surrounding numbers 5 and 7...

Also, you forgot the recent WD story about the Murderval, where some Nurgle daemons slime three Avatars to leave them easy prey for their Slaaneshi allies. :D

Lord Asgul
07-10-2010, 10:49
Maybe it is GW's plan to make you underestimate the power of the Avatar; so that when you lose half your army to one, you start to hate yourself and your army. You then decide to change your army to Marines and you then buy Calgar and challenge the Eldar player for a rematch against your new army...

x-esiv-4c
07-10-2010, 11:11
I'll echo the sentiment about the Imperator class titans. BL uses it as a literary device to make the reader gasp "ZOmG, HOw WILL The GOoDIES EVAR DEFEAt THEM nAOW!?". Then, one hyper-team-mega-laser-techno shot later (looking at you Titanicus) and the thing flops over.

Nazguire
07-10-2010, 11:24
I'll echo the sentiment about the Imperator class titans. BL uses it as a literary device to make the reader gasp "ZOmG, HOw WILL The GOoDIES EVAR DEFEAt THEM nAOW!?". Then, one hyper-team-mega-laser-techno shot later (looking at you Titanicus) and the thing flops over.


Should be "I'm looking at you Helsreach".

FabricatorGeneralMike
07-10-2010, 12:40
Should be "I'm looking at you Helsreach".

Well the thing was swarmed by orks.


I'll echo the sentiment about the Imperator class titans. BL uses it as a literary device to make the reader gasp "ZOmG, HOw WILL The GOoDIES EVAR DEFEAt THEM nAOW!?". Then, one hyper-team-mega-laser-techno shot later (looking at you Titanicus) and the thing flops over.

Again it wasn't one 'Calgarshoroukendragonpunch' that took it out, it was a Titan Battle Group all firing at the same point to disrupt the shields.

I instently thought of the poor avatar, it would seem it's the punching bag of the galaxy. I can't wait to see how many die in Codex: Eldar. =o[

sgtspiff
07-10-2010, 13:20
I compiled a list a while ago:


Alaitoc's Avatar gets killed by Calgar in codex space marines.
Ulthwe's Avatar gets killed by Fulgrim in Fulgrim (perhaps one of the single stupidest deaths ever written).
Iyanden's Avatar gets killed by some carnifexes in Codex Tyranids. This is an UTTER retcon. Originally the Avatar killed the synpase leader of the swarm, SURVIVED the battle and brought victory to Iyanden. But apparently he's not allowed to survive a battle. No, now fleshy squishy Yriel gets to do all that and the Avatar gets to die under the feet of a carnifex stampede. :eyebrows:
Saim Hann's/Biel Tan's Avatar gets defeated by IG in Planetstrike. It kills some guardsmen and then gets blown off a bridge...
An Avatar gets possessed (:wtf:) by a Keeper of Secrets INSIDE a craftworld. Codex Chaos Daemons.
Sanguinor kills one in codex Blood Angels.

Technically the Doom of Malan'ti kills an avatar by killing an entire craftworld singlehandedly.


Hellebore

And in Dawn of War the blood ravens takes down the avatar of Biel-Tan.

eldargal
07-10-2010, 13:52
1) Avatars
2) Female Eldar, around a dozen named female Eldar have been killed over the past five years or so, in codices and BL books.

NightrawenII
07-10-2010, 13:55
And in Dawn of War the blood ravens takes down the avatar of Biel-Tan.
Three, if I'm counting right.
DoW, Biel-Tan
DC, Biel-Tan
DoWII, dunno??

I'm not sure about SoulStorm.

Poseidal
07-10-2010, 14:43
DC and DoW2 are Ulthwe.

Biel-Tan was only in DoW1 IIRC.

Lord Damocles
07-10-2010, 15:08
Dawn of War: Winter Assault also features and Avatar defeat, in the Chaos campaign.
Whether this is cannon or not is unclear.

It should also be noted that while the Eldar involved in the Winter Assault campaign are Ulthwe in the game (with the exception of Guardians recruited in the second mission :shifty:), in the book(s) (Ascension and Tempest) they're Biel-Tan...


In the first Dawn of War novel, the Avatar of Biel-Tan gets beat down *twice* (once by a Daemon Prince, and then again by Gabriel and Isador (although it is specifically mentioned that this Avatar is in a weakened state due to rushed summoning and a lack of the Wailing Doom)).

Shamana
07-10-2010, 16:17
Actually, I think an avatar was defeated in every DoW 1 campaign except possibly Soulstorm, where we don't know who won.

spetswalshe
07-10-2010, 16:29
The problem with GrandpAvatar is that he's only really wheeled out in order to be killed, to make something else look good. It's the Worf Effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect). I honestly don't think I've read a piece of background where an Avatar manages to defeat an opponent, or even turn up at a good time.

It also helps that they're faceless opponents - it doesn't matter how many you kill or how many times you kill them, they don't have names and it makes no difference to the storyline if they die. Unfortunately for the Avatar, he's the only example of one of these faceless heavy-hitters from a 'good' army (it's hard to have Calgar or Grimnar defeated, as it directly affects their storyline and you have to come up with a reason why they didn't actually die and how they came out of it with their pride intact), and reputation of 'evil' armies is often based upon them killing things, one-on-one. One could argue that Imperial Titans could receive the same treatment, but GW doesn't like writing about things that couldn't happen in a 40k battle; hence why attackers of Craftworlds tend to throw boarding parties against a world-ship defended by a living god, rather than just torpedoing the crap out of them.

Eumerin
07-10-2010, 19:37
The problem with GrandpAvatar is that he's only really wheeled out in order to be killed, to make something else look good. It's the Worf Effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect). I honestly don't think I've read a piece of background where an Avatar manages to defeat an opponent, or even turn up at a good time.

There's actually one piece of fluff in which it does win. It's a VERY old fluff story regarding an Eldar battle against chaos cultists... when suddenly a Keeper of Secrets comes out of hiding. After the KotS scatters a group of Banshees, the Avatar takes it on in melee combat and (with some assistance from a group of warlocks) ends up breaking the daemons back.

But I can't think of an Avatar victory in fluff since then.

The "faceless good guys" argument has some merit, but it ignores the fact that even the "good guys" seem to be using the avatar as a punching bag. Off the top of my head, the only recent codex that doesn't include a wrecked avatar is the Space Wolf codex. Also, things like dreadnoughts and wraith lords should be suitable substitues (they're both quite powerful, and taking one down single-handedly is a noteworthy accomplishment), but both tend to get ignored in favor of the Avatar.



I also tend to ignore the wins over Avatars in video games when considering the Worf Effect. Not that they didn't happen canonically, but that's just what video games do.

Wolflord Havoc
07-10-2010, 20:18
The Imperial Navy. In nearly every book in which they appear (win or lose) - they get badly spanked (an exception being one Ciaphus Novel where the Imperial Cruiser defeats a super chaos ship using lots of Transports to help).

FW stories are often nasty to the 'senior service' and in IA 3, 7 and 8 they fair quite badly.

TheLaughingGod
07-10-2010, 20:48
Ironically, Dawn of War 2: Rise of Chaos OPENS with the Blood Ravens defeating an Avatar of Ulthwe. Like, "Training mission: Destroy Avatar of the Bloody Handed God"

Edit: So technically it's not the very first mission, but it's in the first three.

thor2006
07-10-2010, 20:52
Ironically, Dawn of War 2: Rise of Chaos OPENS with the Blood Angels defeating an Avatar of Ulthwe. Like, "Training mission: Destroy Avatar of the Bloody Handed God"

Edit: So technically it's not the very first mission, but it's in the first three.

You mean the Blood Ravens. I don't think the Blood Angels are present.

Nubl0
07-10-2010, 21:37
I would say it's a tie between the Avatar and random Ork warlords... also how much you guys wanna bet an Avatar gets downed in the new Deldar dex?

havoc3149
07-10-2010, 22:57
I really dont think its such a big deal that Avatars die. I mean given the fact that they DO respawn back to craftworlds or exodite planets after they are vanquished, they could simply come back and wait for the next big battle. Also, aren't the avatars summoned when things are going really bad for eldar...so if they loose a few battles, at least the avatar is gonna go back for another go (Maybe a Calgar rematch?)

Proctorkorps
08-10-2010, 02:10
i'd be pretty proud if i managed to defeat this monster in close combat too

Hendarion
08-10-2010, 06:24
I really dont think its such a big deal that Avatars die. I mean given the fact that they DO respawn back to craftworlds or exodite planets after they are vanquished, they could simply come back and wait for the next big battle. Also, aren't the avatars summoned when things are going really bad for eldar...so if they loose a few battles, at least the avatar is gonna go back for another go (Maybe a Calgar rematch?)
The problem isn't that the Avatar dies as a such, but by whom and how easily.
An Avatar after all is about 6 meters tall, his sword about 3 meters in total length with about 2 meters of pure blade which burns things like a melta - not to mention he is partly the Eldar God of Warfare and Bloodshed, having lived longer than mankind in total and battled other Gods. And now there comes a 100-year-old, 2.2m tiny Space Marine freak, gives him a punch with a fist and that beast dies. They might not be able to make Calgar die in such a story, but damn, the comparison is a bad joke - same as the Codex stats for both are a bad joke - but its all that way for balance...
Yea, that surely is for the Worf-Effect, because whoever is able to defeat an Avatar one of the biggest heroes/enemies possible.

Anyway, my personal vote for the punching bag of the century goes to the Avatar and Ork Waaagh-Bosses.

Hellebore
08-10-2010, 06:29
I've wanted to do a diorama of some space marines holding a step ladder Iwojima style whilst Marneus Calgar is on the top Punching the Forgeworld avatar in the face. :p

Hellebore

CasaHouse
08-10-2010, 06:41
I've wanted to do a diorama of some space marines holding a step ladder Iwojima style whilst Marneus Calgar is on the top Punching the Forgeworld avatar in the face. :p

Hellebore
There are not enough words in this language to express how much you need to do this.

Polaria
08-10-2010, 06:43
There are not enough words in this language to express how much you need to do this.

[chanting] Do it, do it, do it, do it...

Hellebore
08-10-2010, 06:48
Well I have a FW avatar and innumerate plastic space marines but in all my 17 years of playing 40k I've never been able to bring myself to buy Marneus Calgar...

Hellebore

CasaHouse
08-10-2010, 06:58
Can't say I blame you. The honor guard models are gorgeous, but buying Calgar would make my soul feel... dirty.

You could always kitbash a Calgar out of other stuff.

Hellebore
08-10-2010, 07:13
I think the metal power armoured one would be best for the model. He's pulling a guts pose with fist in the air so it should fit under the avatar's chin.

Hellebore

Hendarion
08-10-2010, 07:19
Only if you put him up on stairs or a ladder or something, else he won't reach the chin of that Forgeworld-giant. :p
I really like the idea of that ladder, lol!

CasaHouse
08-10-2010, 07:26
They're Ultramarines. They'd never use anything that mundane to reach high places. It'd have to be some "Blessed dias of captain soandso's righteous wrath" with Gold leaf and Imperial Eagles and those stupid F-ing U's all over the thing.

Hendarion
08-10-2010, 07:30
I'd still love a ladder :D Maybe put some U's on it, but a ladder is sooo nice irony.

Polaria
08-10-2010, 08:01
They're Ultramarines. They'd never use anything that mundane to reach high places. It'd have to be some "Blessed dias of captain soandso's righteous wrath" with Gold leaf and Imperial Eagles and those stupid F-ing U's all over the thing.

Golden ladder. Polished by tears of million virgins. With Imperial Eagles. And those F-ing U's all over.

When you absolutely, positively have to punch every motherf***in' Eldar Avatar in the room. Accept no substitute.

Askil the Undecided
08-10-2010, 08:23
A stepladder made of Gold, artfully bound with highly polished admantium and studded with eagles, more of those "F**ing U's" than readily believable and other such Imperial detritus mounted on top of a venerable dreadnought.

Malagate
08-10-2010, 09:18
I would have thought Calgar would have used a step ladder made of Honour Guard, with each guard covered in gold leaf/eagles/Omega's/etc. and each having their own special title, like "Brother Susanus, second holy rung of the Emperor's most glorious fisty wrath". They'll also have bootprints on their faces from where Calgar stomps up, despite having specially made plaforms on their chests & backs for such a purpose.

The last few "rungs" are actually airborn as they jump just in time to support Calgar for but a moment. Also have the starting point as a pile of dead avatars, maybe with a few more queing up behind the one currently being fisted in the face.

Woodsman
08-10-2010, 09:35
Monty Python and the yorkshiremarines?

I would love to see such a diorama.

Shamana
08-10-2010, 10:12
I would say it's a tie between the Avatar and random Ork warlords... also how much you guys wanna bet an Avatar gets downed in the new Deldar dex?

According to the rumormeisters who supposedly have read it, there's little or no eldar-on-deldar action there. I guess the Avatars have been chilling out on the craftworlds, or had a get-together or some such. Don't worry though, supposedly the Daemonhunters are next... and somehow, I doubt no Avatars would be harmed in the creation of that codex.

Well, as long as no more craftworlds get busted - we've already lost two in the 5e codices alone.

Polaria
08-10-2010, 11:28
Monty Python and the yorkshiremarines?

I would love to see such a diorama.

Hell yeah. If Hellebore can't bring himself to buy Marneus Calgar lets all chip in and buy him one (with the Honor Guard to keep the ladder up). I think seeing the finished diorama would be well worth it :p

Iuris
08-10-2010, 12:00
Ahh, the Avatar... see, that's what you get when you use mass produced demons. Just because you can always awaken a new one, GW thinks they should all meet their end in battle.

Of course, given the Eldar nature, it might as well simply be a case of an Eldar on the Path of the accountant figuring out that Avatars dead on the field don't actually neeed to be paid their massive hazard pay...

MajorWesJanson
08-10-2010, 12:10
Don't worry though, supposedly the Daemonhunters are next... and somehow, I doubt no Avatars would be harmed in the creation of that codex.

To paraphrase the current Codex Daemonhunters on why fight the Eldar : "The Avatar is basically a daemon, after all"

Grubnar
08-10-2010, 12:29
Rites of War (PC game)

The Eldar finaly win by having the Avatar slay the Tyranid Primeris with the Vailing Doom.

... the only time I can think of right now where the Avatar is not killed.

P.S. Hellbore, if you are serious about that diorama I´ll damn well give you a Calgar!
For an important project like that I will buy one just for you.

Hellebore
08-10-2010, 12:33
It's ok, I'm getting one. I wouldn't put others out over my smartarsery. It's just not cricket.

Hellebore

Idaan
08-10-2010, 12:56
I've wanted to do a diorama of some space marines holding a step ladder Iwojima style whilst Marneus Calgar is on the top Punching the Forgeworld avatar in the face. :p

Hellebore

In all of my history here on Warseer and on most other forums as well I have never had a signature. Until now.

khirsath
08-10-2010, 12:57
Didn't the Avatar survive in Shadow Point? But that was ancient history ago in terms of fluff evolution.

Eumerin
08-10-2010, 17:31
Didn't the Avatar survive in Shadow Point? But that was ancient history ago in terms of fluff evolution.

There's also the one I mentioned earlier in which the Avatar breaks the back of a Keeper of Secrets.


Betcha that if whoever wrote the Daemon codex had remembered that fluff piece, then it would have been the same KoS possessing that same Avatar when that daemon single-handedly took out the craftworld.

:rolleyes:

Horus38
08-10-2010, 17:40
Also, you forgot the recent WD story about the Murderval, where some Nurgle daemons slime three Avatars to leave them easy prey for their Slaaneshi allies. :D

I just about started doing cartwheels and back flips on the spot when I read this. To the OP: I'd have to go with the Avatar as being a more recent punching bags since the creation of 5ht edition SM codex.

Balgora
08-10-2010, 18:08
2) Female Eldar, around a dozen named female Eldar have been killed over the past five years or so, in codices and BL books.

That's pretty true, first time i came across it was when a group of eldar pathfinders get wtfpwned and outskilled by some kroot in the first Tau codex.

They're all like "there are no enemies here, we know forests well"
and then the kroot are all like "BLARRGGHHHHH!!!! DEATH FROM ABOVE"
and then eldar are all like "WE HAS TECHNOLOGY, DIE YOU DAMN DIRTY...ALIENS *insert sci-fi noises as guns are fired*"
but then the kroot go (like) "NO UR NOT, NOMNOMNOM+excessive violence"

Death Company
08-10-2010, 18:32
Ulthwe's Avatar gets killed by Fulgrim in Fulgrim (perhaps one of the single stupidest deaths ever written).


Out of curiosity, why is it so stupid?

Do you think an Avatar being killed by a Primarch is "OTT"?

Nubl0
08-10-2010, 18:43
It's an even fight, however a giant statue made of molten lava being choked to death is stupid in the extreme and thats ignoring the fact fulgrims hands were just burnt and not incinerated...

Hendarion
08-10-2010, 18:50
He choked him to death? Now that *is* silly to the extreme.

CasaHouse
08-10-2010, 18:59
He choked him to death? Now that *is* silly to the extreme.

Choked him to death and his hands healed within a day or two.

Hendarion
08-10-2010, 19:09
There should be nothing left to heal and I doubt that an Avatar is actually breathing. Meh.

Balgora
08-10-2010, 19:13
Fulgrim donned his special flame proof gear because he anticipated fan response I guess :D

spetswalshe
08-10-2010, 19:31
Ferrus Mannus pulled that same crap, but no one calls him on it - mainly because it's pretty much all he ever did. Apart from getting beheaded, obviously.

I would imagine Calgar's Honour Guard actually have ladder rungs built into their backpacks; their main role isn't protecting him, it's surviving until he gives the order to "Form up, men! It's CLOBBERIN' TIME!".

Death Company
08-10-2010, 19:39
It's an even fight, however a giant statue made of molten lava being choked to death is stupid in the extreme and thats ignoring the fact fulgrims hands were just burnt and not incinerated...

Is this similar to C.S. Goto hatred? People make-up things to incite anger towards the author?

Fulgrim shattered the Avatars shell, by punching it through the head. He then held it by the neck as the life/power fled from it. He did not "choke" it to death.

I'm also a bit confused as why you're angry about Fulgrim's hands not being incinerated. We have no lore backing to even begin to know the limits of a Primarch. Especially one who is being bolstered by the power a greater daemon of Slaanesh.

Brother-Captain Ehrlen
08-10-2010, 20:03
Imperator Titans have one of the most hilarious track records - almost every book one appears it is destroyed or completely crippled.

I'd go so far as to say Titans period. For something so awe inspiring and terrible, they sure get destroyed pretty casually.

Idaan
08-10-2010, 20:15
Choked him to death and his hands healed within a day or two.

And he did that a second after punching bare-fisted through a Wraithlord's head (made of wraithbone, second most resistant substance in the universe) to crush the circuitry (?) within. And two seconds after cutting a Falcon in half with his sword.

BobtheInquisitor
09-10-2010, 00:33
You're right. They really nerfed Fulgrim in that scene. He IS a primarch, for the Emperor's sake!

I think the Ultimate punching bag has to be the grox. Every time a grox is mentioned, it's either part of a sandwich or being unfavorably compared to a brawny/angry/stinky guardsman. :p

Hellebore
09-10-2010, 03:06
Out of curiosity, why is it so stupid?

Do you think an Avatar being killed by a Primarch is "OTT"?

Because the fight lasts about one paragraph and is won by Fulgrim throwing his sword in the air as a 'distraction'. Yes it's a daemon sword. Apparently being a fragment of a 60 million year old wargod gets you pwned by a 150 year old primarch because you never learned to stab someone that deliberately disarmed themselves.

Of course Fulgrim was going to kill it. If he'd been Ciaphas Cain he would have killed it. Being the protagonist lets you kill lots of things. However a grot murdering 20 million people isn't far fetched if it pressed the exterminatus button on the orbiting space ship. Someone using a cheap distraction to kill an avatar of the eldar wargod? Disbelief not suspended. Khaine probably INVENTED the cheap distraction technique. :p

The avatar was supposedly concerned about the daemon. So why not have him throw the sword AT the avatar to make him duck so he can close with it? Instead he literally did a baton toss with it and the avatar was like 'Squirrel!' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmsLUNFk_Qg).:eyebrows:

That and Eldrad not only didn't forsee Fulgrim being in the thrall of a daemon, he didn't even notice until the discussion finished.

And Idaan's favourite, the whole scene is happening only a few hundred years after the Fall. 200 at most. Yet Eldrad's entourage looked like it had been ripped from a 41st millennium army.

Basically the scene was too short and used too many silly contrivances to make Fulgrim look good. In the end it made the story look bad instead.

Hellebore

Retribution
09-10-2010, 03:12
Avatar, the only time you ever hear about him is when he's getting his ass kicked to make somebody else look cooler

acme2468
09-10-2010, 04:22
And Yet in the Game itself, I once Hit an Avatar in the Face with my Meganobs PowerKlaws 92 Times!!!!! (Thats Wounds Not just attacks) and that sucker was still standing. Jammiest invulnerable Save rolling I've ever Seen.

khirsath
09-10-2010, 07:03
Avatars seem to go down so easily that they're beginning to diminish the guy who defeated it. If such an act gets on your roll of honor, it looks like your just adding stuff to make it longer. 40k equivalent of padding your resume with meaningless and trivial accomplishments. :D

The Fulgrim/Eldar scene is pretty terrible, I agree with what Hellebore said above.

Lightning Strike!
09-10-2010, 08:30
The avatar was supposedly concerned about the daemon. So why not have him throw the sword AT the avatar to make him duck so he can close with it? Instead he literally did a baton toss with it and the avatar was like 'Squirrel!' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmsLUNFk_Qg).:eyebrows:

I can understand Khaine being focused on a greater Daemon of Slaanesh. I mean, they are both "avatars" of their gods, and the last time the gods themselves met, Khaine got stomped on and ended up being Khorne's "prison pal". :D

The "baton" style toss may be a bit silly, but meh. I won't let that kill from my experience, one of the better Heresy novels.

On that subject, isn't that "baton toss" the same way Eisenhorn brings down some enemies in his novels, only via a book?

Retribution
09-10-2010, 15:16
And Yet in the Game itself, I once Hit an Avatar in the Face with my Meganobs PowerKlaws 92 Times!!!!! (Thats Wounds Not just attacks) and that sucker was still standing. Jammiest invulnerable Save rolling I've ever Seen.

It's because your meganob just isn't SPESS MEHREEN enuff :P

FlashGordon
09-10-2010, 15:23
Description of the avatar vs fulgrim is always off. I think it is very well done. I doubt it was a regular daemon inhabiting the sword that caught the avatars attention(could he have fought that daemon before etc. not hard to think of why he paid attention to it).
I also think the Marneus calgar and his company defeating an avatar is well written.
People complain for the sake of complaining it seems.

Retribution
09-10-2010, 15:26
Description of the avatar vs fulgrim is always off. I think it is very well done. I doubt it was a regular daemon inhabiting the sword that caught the avatars attention(could he have fought that daemon before etc. not hard to think of why he paid attention to it).
I also think the Marneus calgar and his company defeating an avatar is well written.
People complain for the sake of complaining it seems.

People complain because the Avatar is the most powerful entity the Eldar have at their disposal, and out of the 9 or so appearances in the past few years...he's not only lost, but gotten completely stomped in 8 of them. This is the physical incarnation of a God that can't even kill some bugs

FlashGordon
09-10-2010, 15:30
People complain because the Avatar is the most powerful entity the Eldar have at their disposal, and out of the 9 or so appearances in the past few years...he's not only lost, but gotten completely stomped in 8 of them. This is the physical incarnation of a God that can't even kill some bugs

Thats because there are around 8 other armies. :rolleyes: Shall we count bloodthirsters?

Retribution
09-10-2010, 15:32
Thats because there are around 8 other armies. :rolleyes: Shall we count bloodthirsters?

How many Bloodthirsters have been falcon punched to death?

FlashGordon
09-10-2010, 15:47
falcon punch?

negZero
09-10-2010, 16:18
falcon punch?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Falcon%20Punch

Avatar wins this one hands down. Choked, punch, jumped, possessed, etc. All he needs now is to get hit by drop pod and we could call it a Saturday morning cartoon.

SgtTaters
09-10-2010, 16:23
Thats because there are around 8 other armies. :rolleyes: Shall we count bloodthirsters?

yes, yes, start counting. Detail the occurrence of their defeat and source.

That's why I started this thread, for stuff like this, so start listing the humiliating bloodthirster defeats.

Bergen Beerbelly
09-10-2010, 16:53
I think one of the most rediculous examples of a bloodthirsters death is the fluff of the Blood Angel Primarch Sanguinius during the Horus Heresy. As Sanguinius was trying to hold the Ultimate Gate of the Emperors palace, a Bloodthirster attacked him and tried to strangle him to death. Sanguinius took to the air and they fought a titanic battle in the sky. Eventually though the Bloodthirster threw Sanguinius down to the ground so forcefully that the granite splintered.

So what does Sanguinius do? He gets back up slowly and painfully, in the best professional wrestling style move, grabs the bloodthirster, hoists it high above his head and........

Breaks its back across his knee...His knee...

Seriously?

Sarevok
09-10-2010, 16:56
Ka'Bandha loses to 1. Sanguinus 2. Sanguinor and 3. Combined GK/BA force

Angron and 12 Bloodthirsters died against 100 Grey Knights

Dante killed Skarbrand

An'ggrath was killed by "a force of Grey Knights led by Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex who banished him in personal combat with the artifact-sword Arias."

Tarian
09-10-2010, 17:19
Yeah, but getting slain by an army of Grey Knights led by a Inquisitor Lord is a bit different from getting punched by Calgar.

Sarevok
09-10-2010, 17:51
Dante killing Skarbrand is far worse than Calgar killing Avatar. Bloodthirsters are more powerful than Avatars, and Skarbrand is the most powerful one (actually it's probably Anngrath but whateva). And Dante is a pussy compared to Calgar.

I mean, old man Dante and his S4 power axe? He doesn't even have Eternal Warrior. Skarbrand would kill him in game 99 times out of 100.
At least Calgar has Power Fists, anything can die to a PF.

Iracundus
09-10-2010, 21:22
I think one of the most rediculous examples of a bloodthirsters death is the fluff of the Blood Angel Primarch Sanguinius during the Horus Heresy. As Sanguinius was trying to hold the Ultimate Gate of the Emperors palace, a Bloodthirster attacked him and tried to strangle him to death. Sanguinius took to the air and they fought a titanic battle in the sky. Eventually though the Bloodthirster threw Sanguinius down to the ground so forcefully that the granite splintered.

So what does Sanguinius do? He gets back up slowly and painfully, in the best professional wrestling style move, grabs the bloodthirster, hoists it high above his head and........

Breaks its back across his knee...His knee...

Seriously?

Yes seriously. During that era of fluff writing there was a lot of broke back action going on. The Avatar breaks the Keeper of Secrets over its knee. Horus does it to the Emperor. These pieces all were by Bill King btw.

CasaHouse
09-10-2010, 21:31
I also think the Marneus calgar and his company defeating an avatar is well written.
People complain for the sake of complaining it seems.

You think Calgar killing and screaming his way through an Eldar army to get to the Avatar and the Avatar not seeing or hearing him coming is well written?

That's my biggest gripe with that story. If Calgar needed to kill the Avatar, that's fine, but the living embodiment of War just forgot where the Blue and Gold Enemy General wearing half a truck was?

Lightning Strike!
09-10-2010, 22:04
You think Calgar killing and screaming his way through an Eldar army to get to the Avatar and the Avatar not seeing or hearing him coming is well written?

That's my biggest gripe with that story. If Calgar needed to kill the Avatar, that's fine, but the living embodiment of War just forgot where the Blue and Gold Enemy General wearing half a truck was?

The story doesn't exactly paint a scene where he can focus properly either though, to be fair. The story mentions everything from terminators to heavy weapon teams focusing on him. It isn't mind-blowing to consider that Khaine wasn't exactly focused on one of several terminator geared warriors attacking him.

Sarevok
09-10-2010, 22:19
Avatar's well they may have Khaine's tactical knowledge but they are burning icons of rage, not calm masters of tactics. I remember playing old Epic when the Avatar was forced to move towards the enemy every turn.

His rage clouds his judgement, it wouldn't be unfeasible for an Avatar to make an error even if he is a shard of Khaine.

Idaan
09-10-2010, 22:26
Not really. That's Khaine, not Khorne. Even when he went insane and wanted to destroy the Eldar race during WiH, he was methodical and diplomatic, playing on the enmity between Eldanesh and Ulthanash and appealing to Asuryan's sense of justice not to stop him. Hardly a berserker. Also, "Shadow point" has some scenes from his perspective, and he's anything than a mindless, driven killer. He has a clear purpose and understanding of the wider world, using tactics and not just charging headlong into the fray. He also sees into the souls of other beings, so he couldn't just mistake Calgar for another Terminator.

Hellebore
09-10-2010, 23:12
There's also the fact that in 2nd ed he had to be the army general if included and had a Strategy Rating of 4.

He's a samurai to Khorne's berserker. Controlled rage, directed into precise strikes.

Each of the aspects is supposed to be a single ideological facet of Khaine. I think this is another place where missunderstandings occur. They are conceptual facets rather than literal ones. Because obviously Khaine does not tote around a missile launcher or fly on fairy wings. The Dark reapers try to emulate the poetic, conceptual 'Khaine the Destroyer', whilst the Dire Avengers emulate 'Khaine the Defender' and so on. When you combine them altogether, you don't get a raging berserker.


Hellebore

Mudkip
09-10-2010, 23:14
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250681

Lord_Crull
09-10-2010, 23:22
There should be nothing left to heal and I doubt that an Avatar is actually breathing. Meh.

Nothing left to heal? Fulgrim should not have even gotten burnt in the first place. Konrad Curze crawled out of the molten core of his homeworld while a baby. Ferrus Mannus submerged his hands in lava while strangling what is implied to be a C'tan. If even half of the tales of the Primarchs are true then Fulgrim should be quite unaffected. (Heck, Angron himself took out what's implied to be Eldar strikeforce while still a child)

Not to mention I would expect a Primarch's gauntlets to be the very finest quality, enough to withstand some lava at least. I mean, Terminator armor was orignally made for operating in plasma reactors. Primarch armor should be at the very least comparable if not better.

Frankly, Fulgrim getting burned is pretty tame in my eyes.


And he did that a second after punching bare-fisted through a Wraithlord's head (made of wraithbone, second most resistant substance in the universe) to crush the circuitry (?) within. And two seconds after cutting a Falcon in half with his sword.

And that's suprising..........how? Compared to some of the more extreme stuff about the Primarchs that's nothing. As far as I'm concerned that stuff's a dime a day for Primarchs.

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 00:17
He also sees into the souls of other beings, so he couldn't just mistake Calgar for another Terminator.

You misunderstand me. I'm saying he's a little busy with a devastator squad lighting him up like a Christmas tree, whilst getting attacked from every side by terminators to focus on the enemy commanders location. He may be an Avatar, but a thunder hammer is a thunder hammer no matter who wields it.

Perhaps it's also because Khaine was arrogant, in regards to who lead the "mon-keigh".

It reminds me of the Farseer from the Dawn of War omnibus. When she's asked which chapter she saw leave behind the relics the Blood Ravens find, she's confused about what Gabriel means. He explains the significance of the colors, heraldry and whatnot that varied chapters wear, and she is surprised that the Astartes vary at all. They're all "brutish mon-keigh" to her eyes.

Tarian
10-10-2010, 03:31
Yes seriously. During that era of fluff writing there was a lot of broke back action going on. The Avatar breaks the Keeper of Secrets over its knee. Horus does it to the Emperor. These pieces all were by Bill King btw.

Brokeback 40k? Please... make it stop... :cries:

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 04:12
Brokeback 40k? Please... make it stop... :cries:

All hail Khaela Mensha Khaine, lord of pillow-biting.

Son of Sanguinius
10-10-2010, 05:49
Getting really inappropriate for the forum, guys. Tone it back before you incite the mods.

To the original question, the Avatar is the easy answer given the recent codex history, but I would have to say the Imperial Guard as a whole is a very close second. Outside of a few ridiculous, super-human feats accomplished by plot-armored human protagonists, the Guard really get wailed on by the rest of the galaxy.

I know their motus operandi is to bury stuff in bodies, but isn't that the very definition of a punching bag in this situation? So much of what we see for the Guard is arrogant commanders out-stupiding even more arrogant xenos/chaos commanders, which is a damn shame, because any way you logically slice it, the Imperial Guard has to kick some serious booty in most of the battles they fight for humanity to stand a chance at maintaining an galaxy-wide Empire for 10,000 years.

Tarian
10-10-2010, 05:52
Yeah, the Damocles campaign was just... a sad, sad day for Imperial High Command... Actually, I think IG command gets their inspiration from cereal boxes... or the Uplifting Primer.

Son of Sanguinius
10-10-2010, 06:03
Yeah, the Damocles campaign was just... a sad, sad day for Imperial High Command... Actually, I think IG command gets their inspiration from cereal boxes... or the Uplifting Primer.

It's that kind of thing that makes it so sad. I'm cool with the Imperium pumping out propoganda and all, but I like to think a majority of the Guard knows how much crap that is and still decides to get up for work anyway.

"No, Master Calgar, I don't have super-senses, super-strength, super-speed, super-armor, super-fists, super-swords, super-brains, or super-underwear. What I do have is a couple of tanks that can drop thirty-inch shells on your head from a few miles away and, oh, I'd say a few million of my friends with fully-automatic weapons. Now, I hope you'll excuse me, as your blue armor is attracting enemy fire."

Hellebore
10-10-2010, 06:04
There are only so many victories they can aportion to the Imperium and still maintain the status quo. Unfortunately the Marines get the overwhelming majority of them leaving all the other military divisions with losing.

Hellebore

Iracundus
10-10-2010, 06:10
There are only so many victories they can aportion to the Imperium and still maintain the status quo. Unfortunately the Marines get the overwhelming majority of them leaving all the other military divisions with losing.

Hellebore

I would question this point. Since about 3rd ed. onwards, the background seems to portray increasingly OTT Marine and IG special character feats it is a wonder the Imperium hasn't swept the galaxy at times. Although interspersed with occasional Imperial losses, the overall story trend tends to almost invariably have the Imperials pulling off the final victory despite perhaps initial setbacks or heavy losses.

I would pose the question for example whether the Imperial player denial over the Eye of Terror campaign 9 years ago when the Imperium actually lost stems from internalizing this expectation of Imperial victory, to the point where the Imperium actually losing seems unbelievable to them.

Son of Sanguinius
10-10-2010, 06:13
There are only so many victories they can aportion to the Imperium and still maintain the status quo. Unfortunately the Marines get the overwhelming majority of them leaving all the other military divisions with losing.

Hellebore

You have a point. Still though, despite billions and billions of Orks, billions and billions of Tyranids, and there never being a shortage of planets willing to secede, the Imperium's borders haven't shifted since the Emperor set them. And there are maybe 1.5 million Space Marines in the galaxy? (if I'm being generous, that is)

I want the Guard to be much like the Navy. You may get isolated groups with surprise, superior mobility, and good tactics, but when the 'oomans show up in numbers, it's like trying to hold back an avalanche.

But I'm ranting now and I'll behave myself. :D

Hellebore
10-10-2010, 06:15
Well it's certainly the status quo they claim exists, especially in the rulebook with its time of ending.

But it seems even in the dark eldar codex the marines still win, striking a blow against an alien threat and escaping unscathed. It would have been far better if Vect had killed them once they'd fullfilled their role in his plans, simultaneously removing his rivals and displaying his strength at the same time.

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 06:29
Out of curiosity; aside from bullying other Eldar deities, and murdering mortal Eldar, did Khaine ever do anything of real importance?

I know he shattered the necrodermis of the Nightbringer, but is there anything I'm missing that should make his avatars (a fraction of his power) something that should be absolutely nasty?

I mean, isn't a bloodthirster being killed by the same Marines more insulting? Considering Khorne is much more powerful, and a bloodthirster is essentially his "avatar"?

Just wondering why everyone has their feathers ruffled over his avatars being destroyed.

Iracundus
10-10-2010, 06:39
Out of curiosity; aside from bullying other Eldar deities, and murdering mortal Eldar, did Khaine ever do anything of real importance?

I know he shattered the necrodermis of the Nightbringer, but is there anything I'm missing that should make his avatars (a fraction of his power) something that should be absolutely nasty?

I mean, isn't a bloodthirster being killed by the same Marines more insulting? Considering Khorne is much more powerful, and a bloodthirster is essentially his "avatar"?

Just wondering why everyone has their feathers ruffled over his avatars being destroyed.

Bloodthirsters (or other Greater Daemons) aren't being brought up in recent Codex releases as frequently just to be defeated by the Codex protagonist, even though one could make the same argument they are potentially as faceless (bloodthirsty maniac A vs bloodthirsty maniac B, similar personalities, similar gear, only real difference perhaps a name) or of indeterminate number. When an Avatar gets defeated in almost every 5th edition release to date, it gets rather noticeable that one faction is being made a punching bag.

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 07:34
Bloodthirsters (or other Greater Daemons) aren't being brought up in recent Codex releases as frequently just to be defeated by the Codex protagonist, even though one could make the same argument they are potentially as faceless (bloodthirsty maniac A vs bloodthirsty maniac B, similar personalities, similar gear, only real difference perhaps a name) or of indeterminate number. When an Avatar gets defeated in almost every 5th edition release to date, it gets rather noticeable that one faction is being made a punching bag.

Well, I know the Space Wolves and Blood Angels have greater daemons of Khorne being defeated. That isn't as common as the avatar, but as they're more powerful, I would think we'd hear something from Chaos community, but we don't. We only ever see Eldar players bristling at the insult of having their avatars bested in combat.

I think honestly it's just the easiest option for writing codex fluff against Eldar. They're a "dieing" race, so you can't slaughter them wholesale. I mean did you see the backlash over the "Doom of Malantai"? You have a significant loss against the Eldar, and people wig-out. So what do you do? Kill the big, faceless tough guy. The second he falls, the Eldar lose their nerve and flee. Rinse and repeat.

I don't think it's stellar writing, or condone it, but you can see why it's done.

Iracundus
10-10-2010, 08:01
Well, I know the Space Wolves and Blood Angels have greater daemons of Khorne being defeated. That isn't as common as the avatar, but as they're more powerful, I would think we'd hear something from Chaos community, but we don't. We only ever see Eldar players bristling at the insult of having their avatars bested in combat.


I don't think you're quite aware of their relative frequencies by comparison. Even non-Eldar players notice it these days.

The last clear cut Avatar victories I can recall come from 2nd edition 40K/2nd edition Epic, where the Avatar defeats a Keeper of Secrets, and BFG during 3rd edition, where the Avatar in the BL novel Shadow Point prevails. The previous Iyanden Avatar victory was retconned in the latest Tyranid Codex turning it into a stupid defeat: stupid Avatar yells for a duel and instead is swarmed under by Carnifexes. This then is compounded by the various defeats the Avatar suffers in other BL publications, and as mentioned nearly every 5th edition publication to date, including such non-Codex releases like Planetstrike

In short, while Bloodthirsters and other Greater Daemons have occasionally tasted defeat, they don't meet it with such frequency. It is also at least partially compensated for by various moments of dark glory when they slaughter or prevail against the Imperial forces (see Planetstrike again for some examples, or the BL Word Bearer novels). By contrast, the Eldar Avatar has not had a victory in close to 2 editions, has had a past victory stripped and re-written into defeat, and has perished in virtually every single appearance again since about the last 2 editions.

All races and factions should have their moments of victory and defeat, but why the Avatar stands out so much is its unremitting record of defeat after defeat with no redeeming features for the last 2 editions, 3 if you only count mainstream GW publications and exclude BL.

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 08:25
In short, while Bloodthirsters and other Greater Daemons have occasionally tasted defeat, they don't meet it with such frequency. It is also at least partially compensated for by various moments of dark glory when they slaughter or prevail against the Imperial forces (see Planetstrike again for some examples, or the BL Word Bearer novels). By contrast, the Eldar Avatar has not had a victory in close to 2 editions, has had past victories stripped and re-written into defeats, and has perished in virtually every single appearance again since about the last 2 editions.

So if avatars won a fight here or there, the lamenting would stop?

I ask because I'm struggling to imagine a world where Eldar players don't make snide comments about Marneus Calgar or Matt Ward every half-second, lol.


All races and factions should have their moments of victory and defeat, but why the Avatar stands out so much is its unremitting record of defeat after defeat with no redeeming features for the last 2 editions, 3 if you only count mainstream GW publications and exclude BL.

I'll be honest, I wasn't aware that avatars were so lacking in the way of victories, as I don't own any Eldar codices. I can see where the frustration comes from.

Idaan
10-10-2010, 08:44
It's pretty much everybody, not just Eldar players. Seriously, half of the threads on 4chan's traditional games are about making fun of Calgar and Ward, and the percentage of Eldar players there is very, very low.




I mean, isn't a bloodthirster being killed by the same Marines more insulting? Considering Khorne is much more powerful, and a bloodthirster is essentially his "avatar"?

1. Khorne didn't divide his whole power into the Bloodthirsters.
2. There are a lot less Avatars (I'd say about 50) than Bloodthirsters, so comparatively they get bigger proportion of Khaine's power
3. Avatar has weaker stats in-game purely because the Eldar armylist has a theme of synergy, with no single powerful units able to work on their own. Look at the 2nd edition stats to see that he was pretty much comparable to a Bloodthirster.

Eumerin
10-10-2010, 10:13
The story doesn't exactly paint a scene where he can focus properly either though, to be fair. The story mentions everything from terminators to heavy weapon teams focusing on him. It isn't mind-blowing to consider that Khaine wasn't exactly focused on one of several terminator geared warriors attacking him.

Actually, I think the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that Calgar was actually able to hold down the Avatar's sword. Have you ever had a small animal grab hold of something long - say, a pole, for instance - that you were moving around? The animal can't keep it in place. It simply doesn't have the mass. The Avatar, being much, much bigger than Calgar, should have been able to flip the Chapter Master around like a rag doll.


They're a "dieing" race, so you can't slaughter them wholesale. I mean did you see the backlash over the "Doom of Malantai"?

The problem with the Doom of Malantai is the absurdity of the Doom itself. If the writer(s) had merely said, "On such and such a date a Tyranid swarm overran a craftworld," or something to that effect (obviously expanding it out a bit more, but leaving out the magical head popping tyranid), then the reaction would have been much more muted. But apparently the Eldar can't get properly beaten these days unless there's a component of absurdity involved.



Note, though, that I actually like the absurdity involved in the Space Wolf/Eldar fight (the fight actually started due to translation difficulties).

:P

FlashGordon
10-10-2010, 12:33
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Falcon%20Punch

Avatar wins this one hands down. Choked, punch, jumped, possessed, etc. All he needs now is to get hit by drop pod and we could call it a Saturday morning cartoon.

Umm.. no. I guess we do not agree.

FlashGordon
10-10-2010, 12:34
You think Calgar killing and screaming his way through an Eldar army to get to the Avatar and the Avatar not seeing or hearing him coming is well written?

That's my biggest gripe with that story. If Calgar needed to kill the Avatar, that's fine, but the living embodiment of War just forgot where the Blue and Gold Enemy General wearing half a truck was?

As has been noted before, thats not what happened. if you want to describe the occurance use a quote to get it right at least.

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 15:34
It's that kind of thing that makes it so sad. I'm cool with the Imperium pumping out propoganda and all, but I like to think a majority of the Guard knows how much crap that is and still decides to get up for work anyway.

"No, Master Calgar, I don't have super-senses, super-strength, super-speed, super-armor, super-fists, super-swords, super-brains, or super-underwear. What I do have is a couple of tanks that can drop thirty-inch shells on your head from a few miles away and, oh, I'd say a few million of my friends with fully-automatic weapons. Now, I hope you'll excuse me, as your blue armor is attracting enemy fire."

''Cool story dude, I've already taken out your artillery and cut your supply lines. Nice command center you have by the way. It was pretty easy teleporting here and wrecking your communications. A few hunderd years of warfare experiance goes a long way you know.''


Well it's certainly the status quo they claim exists, especially in the rulebook with its time of ending.

But it seems even in the dark eldar codex the marines still win, striking a blow against an alien threat and escaping unscathed. It would have been far better if Vect had killed them once they'd fullfilled their role in his plans, simultaneously removing his rivals and displaying his strength at the same time.

Hellebore

They did't escape unscathed. they escaped with their forces intanct from what I rememebr, but they did take losses.


Actually, I think the thing that bugs me the most is the fact that Calgar was actually able to hold down the Avatar's sword. Have you ever had a small animal grab hold of something long - say, a pole, for instance - that you were moving around? The animal can't keep it in place. It simply doesn't have the mass. The Avatar, being much, much bigger than Calgar, should have been able to flip the Chapter Master around like a rag doll.


Who said all Avatars are the same size? I remember seeing a titan-sized Avatar in Epic that surely is nowhere near the size of the Forgeworld avatar or the GW Avatar.


It's pretty much everybody, not just Eldar players. Seriously, half of the threads on 4chan's traditional games are about making fun of Calgar and Ward, and the percentage of Eldar players there is very, very low.


4chan? Really? You are bringing 4chan's juvenile antics and memes into this? Seriously?

The day I take 4chan seriously is the day the Queen of England marches in and tap dances with me.

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 18:05
It's pretty much everybody, not just Eldar players. Seriously, half of the threads on 4chan's traditional games are about making fun of Calgar and Ward, and the percentage of Eldar players there is very, very low.

I never ever encountered all of the Calgar angst offline, and I frequent three different gaming clubs.

In my experience with Dakka, Warseer and Heresy, it's Eldar players who will bring it up. As if they can somehow kill Matt Ward just by hating him to death.


1. Khorne didn't divide his whole power into the Bloodthirsters.
2. There are a lot less Avatars (I'd say about 50) than Bloodthirsters, so comparatively they get bigger proportion of Khaine's power
3. Avatar has weaker stats in-game purely because the Eldar armylist has a theme of synergy, with no single powerful units able to work on their own. Look at the 2nd edition stats to see that he was pretty much comparable to a Bloodthirster.

1. Well, Khaine didn't have much choice, really. But since we're on this route, Khorne is significantly more powerful. Wouldn't his bloodthirsters be stronger on that alone? He could put less power into them, and still be as strong, or stronger, as he has more power to work with.
2. Where did you get the numbers for how many bloodthirsters exist?
3. Meh, I don't expect fluff to equal rules by any means, or else Lucius would be the best model in the game. However isn't it possible that their stats are weaker because that's how GW envisions them?

Bergen Beerbelly
10-10-2010, 18:57
Where does everyone get the idea that Khorne is more powerful than Khaine?
Slaanesh had to eat almost the entire Eldar race just to have enough power to defeat Khaine. If he hadn't been pumped up on Eldar soul steroids he would have had no chance. And I've never seen anything in any publication that says Khorne is any more powerful than the normal version of Slaanesh or Khaine for that matter.

Son of Sanguinius
10-10-2010, 19:31
''Cool story dude, I've already taken out your artillery and cut your supply lines. Nice command center you have by the way. It was pretty easy teleporting here and wrecking your communications. A few hunderd years of warfare experiance goes a long way you know.''

Last time I checked, Calgar's objective wasn't to cripple the Imperial Guard. ;)

Tarian
10-10-2010, 19:32
Son of Sanguinius, everyone beats on the Guard, so Calgar was just checking it off his list. :D

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 19:50
Last time I checked, Calgar's objective wasn't to cripple the Imperial Guard. ;)

Last time I checked Calgar was not being threatened by the Imperial Guard ethier.:rolleyes:

Or do you want me to describe how Calgar has already taken out the enemy leadership and crippled their ability to fight and leaving the Guard to clean up the bloodied remnants of the enemy army?

Sarevok
10-10-2010, 20:05
I don't play Eldar, and I agree their players complain too much. But Matt Ward is a lame writer.


Where does everyone get the idea that Khorne is more powerful than Khaine?
Slaanesh had to eat almost the entire Eldar race just to have enough power to defeat Khaine. If he hadn't been pumped up on Eldar soul steroids he would have had no chance. And I've never seen anything in any publication that says Khorne is any more powerful than the normal version of Slaanesh or Khaine for that matter.

How many publications have you read? Khorne is the most powerful god, then Tzeentch then Nurgle and then Slaanesh is last.

They might not mention it in the newest books, but that's the way it's been as far back as I can remember. Renegaes book for Epic I think.

RunepriestRidcully
10-10-2010, 20:08
I feel sorry for the avatars, (they seem to be becoming an endangered species) but seriously, look at the Thousand Sons, both fluff and rules wise in every addition, notice a theme? nothing has ever gone right for them ever, there rules never really compare well to the other cults, and the fluff... well let's say everyone they have worked for seems to have screwed them over.

Vaktathi
10-10-2010, 20:12
''Cool story dude, I've already taken out your artillery and cut your supply lines. Nice command center you have by the way. It was pretty easy teleporting here and wrecking your communications. A few hunderd years of warfare experiance goes a long way you know.''
Sorry, you forget the 453rd, 219th, 7254th, 300th, 802nd, 721st, 47th, 2697th, 292nd, 983rd, and 13th Regiments on the other side of the hill, the Leviathan superheavy mobile command bunker, and we've still got enough ordnance left in the 30someodd tanks here to level the place with you in it.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

Oh, and the Hydra's have intercepted your reinforcement Thunderhawks since you forgot about them in your haste to get to the command bunker, and we've called for the Navy to fire on our position with everything they've got.

(funny how you can apply all that to just about any army isn't it? :p)

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 20:37
Sorry, you forget the 453rd, 219th, 7254th, 300th, 802nd, 721st, 47th, 2697th, 292nd, 983rd, and 13th Regiments on the other side of the hill, the Leviathan superheavy mobile command bunker, and we've still got enough ordnance left in the 30someodd tanks here to level the place with you in it.


Let's not forget the battle barges and planetary assault fleet in orbit shall we? Oh, and I've already identified those regiments with centuries of combat experiance taken out those regiments via orbital bombardment and Dreadwind assault pods. I've sent a few troops to mop up whatever's left and boody-trap the area. Plus you've lost all comunications as well. Good luck coordinating a response.



Quantity has a quality all its own.


But orbital superiority trumps all.



Oh, and the Hydra's have intercepted your reinforcement Thunderhawks since you forgot about them in your haste to get to the command bunker,

Sorry, I've already destroyed your anti-aircraft batteries from orbit with my guns and strike teams. Not that you could have sent orders to them anyway, I've gutted your communications remmeber?


and we've called for the Navy to fire on our position with everything they've got.


Oh, now you need the Navy in order to rescue you? Guess the Guard can't do it on their own then.



(funny how you can apply all that to just about any army isn't it? :p)

Funny how I can counter it.;)

In all seriousness Calgar really is a vastly better commander than any IG commander out there. It's flat out described in his fluff as being one of the best strategists and commanders in the Imperium. Call him Mary Sue all you want but being an awesome comamnder is what Calgar does.

But let's call this off now shall we? both of us can one-upsmanship each other for eternity.

Bergen Beerbelly
10-10-2010, 20:38
Actually, I just looked up the Avatar and the descriptions of the chaos gods from the Renegades supplement for the game of Space Marine (Epic) and it doesn't say anything about any of the chaos gods being more powerful than any other chaos god.

However there is something interesting about the Avatar. It says the Avatar "is a raging spirit, blind to the notions of tactics or objectives. His only objective to wreak as much damage and destruction as possible"... an interesting side note is that he had a 2+ invulnerable save. (too bad he doesn't have that in 40k!)

None of the Chaos Daemons in the same game had invlunerable saves. I'd say that makes an Avatar quite a bit more powerful.

Son of Sanguinius
10-10-2010, 20:43
Last time I checked Calgar was not being threatened by the Imperial Guard ethier.:rolleyes:

Or do you want me to describe how Calgar has already taken out the enemy leadership and crippled their ability to fight and leaving the Guard to clean up the bloodied remnants of the enemy army?

Dude, you're totally missing the point of my original comment! What I'm trying to reflect is the fact that most of the time, the Imperial Guard doesn't need the Space Marines to win a fight for them. He's not threatening Calgar. :)

Vaktathi
10-10-2010, 20:54
Let's not forget the battle barges and planetary assault fleet in orbit shall we? Oh, and I've already identified those regiments with centuries of combat experiance taken out those regiments via orbital bombardment and Dreadwind assault pods. I've sent a few troops to mop up whatever's left and boody-trap the area. Plus you've lost all comunications as well. Good luck coordinating a response. Quite missing my point, the point was that you can make up any mumbo jumbo for any army to win in any particular story no matter how ridiculous. Going off and saying "oh, well you lose because I'm 1000000000x more awesome and already done all this amazing stuff to make you lose" is what 3rd graders do and can be applied to anything and in retort ad infinitum.




But orbital superiority trumps all. In which case the IN is very clearly superior to the forces of the Space Marines, as SM warfleets are ground support vessels, while the IN is built around winning fleet engagements which SM vessels are not built for, nor are they around in the numbers that the IN is or particularly superior :p




In all seriousness Calgar really is a vastly better commander than any IG commander out there. It's flat out described in his fluff as being one of the best strategists and commanders in the Imperium. So is just about every other Imperial Commander like Yarrick, Creed and Macharius, whom I don't think one can objectively call inferior to Calgar without resorting to mary sue "but he's just better!" excuses.


Oh, now you need the Navy in order to rescue you? Guess the Guard can't do it on their own then. That's like saying "your SM's can't win without their fleet support and tens of thousands of chapter serfs?" Let's not be ridiculous here.



But let's call this off now shall we? both of us can one-upsmanship each other for eternity.That was kinda my original point :shifty:

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 20:57
Quite missing my point, the point was that you can make up any mumbo jumbo for any army to win in any particular story no matter how ridiculous. Going off and saying "oh, well you lose because I'm 1000000000x more awesome and already done all this amazing stuff to make you lose" is what 3rd graders do and can be applied to anything and in retort ad infinitum.


Nope, Calgar, most of the time won't get involved in a battle he can't win. He'll move, strike at your weak points and gut you. With the superior mobility and orbital support of the Astartes that should be easy. I was simply pointing out that Calgar was not a bad commander, as was previously implied.



In which case the IN is very clearly superior to the forces of the Space Marines, as SM warfleets are ground support vessels, while the IN is built around winning fleet engagements which SM vessels are not built for, nor are they around in the numbers that the IN is or particularly superior :p


Of course. Where did I deny that at all? I was talking about Guard here. Two different branches.



So is just about every other Imperial Commander like Yarrick, Creed and Macharius, whom I don't think one can objectively call inferior to Calgar without resorting to mary sue "but he's just better!" excuses.


Actually I would. Calgar to put it bluntly has more experiance and better demonstrated feats. Macharius is debatable though. Creed is close though. Yarrick is not quite up to match though.



That was kinda my original point :shifty:

Then you should have made it clearer instead of trying to pull out some one-upsmanship.


Dude, you're totally missing the point of my original comment!

Then you should have made it clearer.


What I'm trying to reflect is the fact that most of the time, the Imperial Guard doesn't need the Space Marines to win a fight for them. He's not threatening Calgar. :)

Then belittling and claiming you can kill them is certainly not a good idea. That's what I call a threat.

Vaktathi
10-10-2010, 21:08
Nope, Calgar, most of the time won't get invovle din a battle he can't win. He'll move, strike at your weak points and gut you. With the superior mobility and orbital support of the Astartes that should be easy. Again, magical mumbo-jumbo that can be applied to anything. Surely with the vast manpower, firepower, armor support, and weapons to counter any threat the Imperial Guard will overrun and crush anything they face, that should be easy. :p

The Orks are never beaten, they regrow losses from spores and come back bigger and badder than before and the more the fight the bigger and greener they get. Against any foe, with all those Boyz that should be easy.



Of course. Where did I deny that at all? I was talking about Guard here. Two different branches.
Yes, but interconnected. It's not like the Astartes and Guard. They are separate so that a single chain of command can't rebel at will with everything needed. They still operate jointly and are two parts of the same whole of the Munitorum. Anything involving the IG will by necessity also involve the IN. The IG cannot operate by itself any more than the SM's can operate without their fleet assets and thousands of Chapter serfs.


Then you should have made it clearer instead of trying to pull out some one-upsmanship. Sorry, thought the point wasn't as hard to get as I thought. :p

Sarevok
10-10-2010, 21:11
Hmmmm think it was in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex?


Khorne is the most powerful of all the Chaos gods. His chief rival is Tzeentch, the Great Sorcerer, who is the patron of wizards just as Khorne is the patron of warriors. Of course, this rivalry does not prevent Khome and Tzeentch from fighting for a common cause when it is convenient to do so. Combined, these two gods are always more powerful than the others. Of all his brother gods, Khorne most despises Slaanesh, whose prancing fopperies are an affront to Khorne's sense of honour and martial pride. Even so, Khome makes use of the Prince of Chaos when necessary, as much as it may gall him to do so.

Though Slaanesh is the least of the Dark Gods of Chaos, he is an important player in the divine game. His support is an essential part of any alliance between the Chaos gods. The favour of Slaanesh can easily swing the balance of power between the gods, giving Slaanesh an influence disproportionate to his power. Nonetheless, the power of Slaanesh is growing all the time. Soon the Prince of Chaos will come to rival the other gods and, who knows, even rise above them.








None of the Chaos Daemons in the same game had invlunerable saves. I'd say that makes an Avatar quite a bit more powerful.

Bloodthirster was CAF +12, Avatar was CAF +10
Saves only work vs shooting attacks in old Epic, so BT would win most fights against it.
Daemons could also sacrifice Chaos gifts to save themselves from dying, though not from psychic attacks or Avatars.

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 21:13
Again, magical mumbo-jumbo that can be applied to anything. Surely with the vast manpower, firepower, armor support, and weapons to counter any threat the Imperial Guard will overrun and crush anything they face, that should be easy. :p


No, it's not mumbo-jumbo, merely percise application of one's strengths. Unfourtunately for the Guard, they are a seperate branch from the Navy, and thus have no ships of there own. The Marines would gain the orbital advantage and rain hell down upon them.



The Orks are never beaten, they regrow losses from spores and come back bigger and badder than before and the more the fight the bigger and greener they get. Against any foe, with all those Boyz that should be easy.


Depends on the foe actually. Growing from spores is not that fast, and if you can come in and nuetralize them quickly enough they can be stopped. Under normal circumstances, Marines with their superior mobility should not have too much trouble in defusing an ork horde.



Yes, but interconnected. It's not like the Astartes and Guard. They are separate so that a single chain of command can't rebel at will with everything needed. They still operate jointly and are two parts of the same whole of the Munitorum. Anything involving the IG will by necessity also involve the IN. The IG cannot operate by itself any more than the SM's can operate without their fleet assets and thousands of Chapter serfs.


Not really. The Navy is not always involved in Guard operations. See the Second Battle of Pavonis for example. Or the Planestrike battle against the Eldar. Gaunt only got orbital support a few times in the books. Guard garrisoning the planet won't always have navy support and unlike the Marines, Guard tactics are not heavily based off ships. In fact most of the time the Navy won't be operating with Guard (The whole Gothic War space battles). The Guard need the Navy to get places, but ultimately the generals don't control the ships and don't always use them.

Wheras orbital support is based around normal Marine tactical doctrine. The fact is Guard generaly are nowhere as strategically mobile as Marines. They don't base their tactics off ships like the Astartes.



Sorry, thought the point wasn't as hard to get as I thought. :p

Then I'm sorry to say you were wrong.:D

Vaktathi
10-10-2010, 22:08
No, it's not mumbo-jump, merely percise application of one's strengths. Which again can be applied ad nauseum to make any particular faction auto-win is super mary sue style. Surely using the idea of strategic command genius and mobility the Eldar would find any such battle even easier.

Speed, equipment, better troops and better command will only get you so far in the face of material superiority. The Eastern Front of WW2 is probably the best example. The Germans had better tanks (at least after 1942), far better trained and experienced troops, better equipped troops, and better field commanders. They destroyed the Red Army nearly twice over. At Kursk they inflicted 4x the number of casualties on the red army that they sustained (and in some respects as many as 10x, such as in field guns). Yet the battle of Kursk was a decisive soviet victory and the Germans lost the war horribly. To quote a great military mind "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."

And lets be honest, once we start bringing starships or examining numbers in the equation, 40k's ability to sustain its fluff goes out the window. Starships can annihilate planetary surfaces and destroy armies in the field without needing to engage in open battle, only mop ups, which don't make for very good tabletop wargames. Naval support breaks 40k when applied realistically by any faction.

Numbers get even more silly. The IG codex states there are billions of IG regiments. Assuming an IG regiment size of 5000 troops (lowball given that the Cadian 8th that is presented as a typical organization is 8k) and plural "billions" to mean just *2* billion, we get about 10,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen (Ten Trillion), or 10,000,000 (ten million) guardsmen for each Space Marine.

Even if we take the SM's oft quoted 10 or a Dozen normal troops for every Marine (assuming this is a straight up man for man exchange ratio and not already taking into account greater SM mobility and command capability that we see on the table is closer to 3-4 normal troops for 1 SM), using the latter number of 12 the IG could sustain losses in excess of ten, a hundred, a thousand, or even ten thousand times that ratio (assuming they sustain casualties all out of whack with even SM fluff due to apparently incomparable SM strategic genius and SM mobility) with each Space Marine slaying 120,000 guardsmen (each SM killing 25 regiments of Imperial Guardsmen), and still wipe out the Space Marines with almost no realistic decrease in fighting strength. (120,000,000,000-120 Billion IG casualties, about 1.25% of the Imperial Guard's manpower using the numbers above).

Using the newest C:SM ratio of 12 for 1 (again assuming this isn't already taking into account SM chapter assets and the like) against a more typical realistic 8,000 strong IG regiment, the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes 1,000 Chapters is equal to about 1,500 Imperial Guard regiments (or about 0.000075% of IG fighting strength assuming only *2* billion regiments). If you want to include Astartes fleet and the tens of thouands of chapter serfs in each chapter needed to crew SM vessels and other functions, in any realistic comparison at this level the IN will become involved (while the IN and IG are different forces, they are both part of the Munitorum and united under *its* command) as well unless you assume everything takes on a world where all these IG regiments just apparently simply happen to exist in a vacuum.

By the ratios given in the SM codex's (10/12 for 1) the entirety of the Astartes would have failed retaking Vraks, as the IG took 17 million in simply casualties while taking back the planet, with SM's unwilling even to commit at the beginning and only engaging for extremely limited amounts of time and very specified objectives due to the extensiveness of the orbital defense network and ground fortifications.

Hence why 40k tends to fall apart when you start looking at this stuff seriously.


Unfourtunately for the guard, they are a seperate branch from the Navy, and thus have no ships of there own. The Marines would gain the orbital advantage and rain hell down upon them. Only if it's an isolated garrison. If it's anywhere troops have had to be brought in, or really anywhere where the IN has a presence, they will be involved.


The fact is Guard generaly are nowhere as strategically mobile as Marines. They don't base their tactics off ships like the Astartes. Only in some instances, generally depending on the author and whether they see the IG as Stalingrad conscripts or as a professional combined arms force.

Bergen Beerbelly
10-10-2010, 22:21
@ Sarevok: Which means the only thing a Greater Daemon of Khorne had going for it vs an Avatar was that it got +2 CAF on the Avatar and maybe one extra attack due to being able to attack twice.

Other than that, there really is no difference.

Now I can see Khorne being the greatest of the four Chaos powers but that doesn't say anywhere that he's more powerful than khaine, just that he's the most powerful of the four Chaos powers.

In the Titan Legions book it does say that " The most powerful of all the creatures that inhabit the warp are the four Dark Gods of Chaos"....but in the Eldar codex it states "Exhausted from the struggle, the Great Enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the Eldar god completely. Instead Khaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the Warp forever." So Khaine is now in the mortal universe, not the Warp.

Now there is a lot of fluff that states that sometimes one Chaos god becomes more powerful than any of the others for a while. This is what happened when the Eldar were consumed by/created Slaanesh. At the height of Slaanesh's power he tried to kill Khaine and couldn't do it. All he could do was split him up and throw him out of the warp.

It doesn't seem to me that Khorne is more powerful than Khaine based off of the above...just the most powerful of the four chaos gods.

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 22:33
Which again can be applied ad nauseum to make any particular faction auto-win is super mary sue style.

Nope, nothing said it has to be mary sue style at all. It's perfectly possible to execute a fine victory without being ''mary sue''.


Surely using the idea of strategic command genius and mobility the Eldar would find any such battle even easier.


Correct, Eldar, along with Tau, really have one of the better fighting styles.



Speed, equipment, better troops and better command will only get you so far in the face of material superiority. The Eastern Front of WW2 is probably the best example. The Germans had better tanks (at least after 1942), far better trained and experienced troops, better equipped troops, and better field commanders. They destroyed the Red Army nearly twice over. At Kursk they inflicted 4x the number of casualties on the red army that they sustained (and in some respects as many as 10x, such as in field guns). Yet the battle of Kursk was a decisive soviet victory and the Germans lost the war horribly. To quote a great military mind "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."


Not quite, you are greatly simplifying it. By the end of the war the Soviet's copied the German tactics and were pulling off blitzkreigs of their own. If they had stuck to their original tactics they would have not had as mcuh sucess. Then you had Hitler's poor command descisons. Had Hitler went straight for Moscow instead of going at Ukraine in 1941 he could have taken the city and cut the USSR's communciatiosn and industrial hub.

Saying the Russians won because of numbers is greatly simplifying one factor that lead to German defeat.

Or look at Alexander's conquest of Persia. He was heavily outnumebred by all accounts, but he won every one of his abttles and took the empire. Or the first Gulf War, by logistics and calcuations people thought it would be a bloody fight for the Coalition. It turned out to be a curbstomp for the US and allies.

Your logic is half-true. Logistics are important, but they most defninetely not the sole reason for victory. Throughout history smaller elite forces have defeated larger, inferior forces before.



And lets be honest, once we start bringing starships or examining numbers in the equation, 40k's ability to sustain its fluff goes out the window. Starships can annihilate planetary surfaces and destroy armies in the field without needing to engage in open battle, only mop ups, which don't make for very good tabletop wargames. Naval support breaks 40k when applied realistically by any faction.


Which is why Marines hold such an advantage in strategic mobility.

And no, I was talking more about Calgar himself picking and choosing his a battles. Not Marines vs. the entire Imperial Guard. Those are two different things.

If oyu want to talk about the Mairnes vs. the Guard as a whole then I suggest you start a new thread.



Numbers get even more silly. The IG codex states there are billions of IG regiments. Assuming an IG regiment size of 5000 troops (lowball given that the Cadian 8th that is presented as a typical organization is 8k) and plural "billions" to mean just *2* billion, we get about 10,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen (Ten Trillion), or 10,000,000 (ten million) guardsmen for each Space Marine.


I already know that. Your point? All that's useless if they can't actually deploy in the right place at the right time. A Marine commander would be an idiot if he fought against the Guard were they could deploy those kind of numbers. Ten million Guardsmen is nice and all, but if they can't bring those numbers to bear it does not matter.



Even if we take the SM's oft quoted 10 or a Dozen normal troops for every Marine (assuming this is a straight up man for man exchange ratio and not already taking into account greater SM mobility and command capability that we see on the table is closer to 3-4 normal troops for 1 SM), using the latter number of 12 the IG could sustain losses in excess of ten, a hundred, a thousand, or even ten thousand times that ratio (assuming they sustain casualties all out of whack with even SM fluff due to apparently incomparable SM strategic genius and SM mobility) with each Space Marine slaying 120,000 guardsmen (each SM killing 25 regiments of Imperial Guardsmen), and still wipe out the Space Marines with almost no realistic decrease in fighting strength. (120,000,000,000-120 Billion IG casualties, about 1.25% of the Imperial Guard's manpower using the numbers above).


Sorry, it doesn't work like that. all that Guard strength won't matter if they can't get it into place. 40k contains a vareity of more factors than that. I mean, look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. Abnett says a billion troops where commited in one of the largest and most cumbersome operations in the Imperium. If a billion was considered large for the biggest crusade since Macharius, what does that say about your theories?

If you are trying to bring this into a Guard vs. Marines debate, that won't work. That was not my original point.

Or look at Boros Gate. 7,000 Word Bearers against 300 White Consuls and 10 Billion Guardsmen. After three months of total warfare the Guard had been pushed back into bitter stalemate. Agianst ten billion Guardsmen the Word Bearers were holding their own. That's three months of fighting in the exact style of warfare that favoured the Guard.

In the end the Guard only won because a Space Marine rescue fleet came in and won the day. (as well as the Necrons coming in and killing both sides)

Of course that's all a moot point since I was talking about Calgar himself and how he would win a theoretical victory.



Using the newest C:SM ratio of 12 for 1 (again assuming this isn't already taking into account SM chapter assets and the like) against a more typical realistic 8,000 strong IG regiment, the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes 1,000 Chapters is equal to about 1,500 Imperial Guard regiments (or about 0.000075% of IG fighting strength assuming only *2* billion regiments). If you want to include Astartes fleet and the tens of thouands of chapter serfs in each chapter needed to crew SM vessels and other functions, in any realistic comparison at this level the IN will become involved (while the IN and IG are different forces, they are both part of the Munitorum and united under *its* command) as well unless you assume everything takes on a world where all these IG regiments just apparently simply happen to exist in a vacuum.


Nope, sorry, once you bring in the Navy this ceases to be a Guard vs. Marines operation, more like an Imperium vs. Marines operation.



By the ratios given in the SM codex's (10/12 for 1) the entirety of the Astartes would have failed retaking Vraks, as the IG took 17 million in simply casualties while taking back the planet, with SM's unwilling even to commit at the beginning and only engaging for extremely limited amounts of time and very specified objectives due to the extensiveness of the orbital defense network and ground fortifications.


And looking at Boros a mere 7,000 Word Bearers were holding there won in a hive seige combat against ten billion (yes ten billion, I checked) guardsmen. Before this they took out about a dozen other similarly-sized planets in the Boros system as well as a large number of colonies. essentially taking out billions more Guardsmen rather quickly.

I even did a commentary about this way back when Dark Creed was published.



Hence why 40k tends to fall apart when you start looking at this stuff seriously.


True,I do agree with you here. 40k does not behave with logic at all.

Look at Boros.



Only if it's an isolated garrison. If it's anywhere troops have had to be brought in, or really anywhere where the IN has a presence, they will be involved.


Pavonis was hardly isolated, being the trade capital of the sector. And netheir was the planet the Eldar attacked. Sorry, I can't really accept that given the evidence I have seen. In all the many ficition I have read (Gaunt, Cain, the Guard series, the Guard Codex) the Guard don't operate as closely with the Navy as you seem to imply here.

Lightning Strike!
10-10-2010, 22:48
Now I can see Khorne being the greatest of the four Chaos powers but that doesn't say anywhere that he's more powerful than khaine, just that he's the most powerful of the four Chaos powers.

It's simple logic, really. Slaanesh consumed Asuryan, who was the most powerful of the Eldar gods, along with the rest of the pantheon.

Asuryan > Khaine
Slaanesh > Asuryan

See how simple that is?

There are also the two tales regarding the defeat of the Eldar pantheon I've read.

One in which Slaanesh is exhausted from having defeated / consumed the Eldar pantheon, and therefore doesn't have the energy left to consume Khaine. So he shatters him, and casts his pieces into real-space. The other story says that Khorne shows up and claims Khaine as his property, keeping Slaanesh from consuming him. Neither story makes Khaine looks very impressive.

Either Slaanesh was too tired to finish the job after defeating Asuryan, who is more powerful than Khaine in the first place; or he becomes Khorne's "prison pal".


In the Titan Legions book it does say that " The most powerful of all the creatures that inhabit the warp are the four Dark Gods of Chaos"....but in the Eldar codex it states "Exhausted from the struggle, the Great Enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the Eldar god completely. Instead Khaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the Warp forever." So Khaine is now in the mortal universe, not the Warp.

You're grasping at straws here.


Now there is a lot of fluff that states that sometimes one Chaos god becomes more powerful than any of the others for a while. This is what happened when the Eldar were consumed by/created Slaanesh. At the height of Slaanesh's power he tried to kill Khaine and couldn't do it. All he could do was split him up and throw him out of the warp.

He had already defeated Asuryan and the other gods. Asuryan was more powerful than Khaine. I'm not sure what you're getting at.


It doesn't seem to me that Khorne is more powerful than Khaine based off of the above...just the most powerful of the four chaos gods.

See above.

Vaktathi
10-10-2010, 22:59
Nope, nothing said it has to be mary sue style at all. It's perfectly possible to execute a fine victory without being ''mary sue''. Yes, however when you just say that anytime Calgar shows up and wins due to genius and mobility, that's mary sue, and exactly what was done earlier.



Not quite, you are greatly simplifying it. By the end of the war the Soviet's copied the German tactics and were pulling off blitzkreigs of their own. Yes they copied the German tactics, but the Germans were still fighting better, with better troops and better equipment. There likely will never be troops with kill records like Barkmann, Bake, Hartmann, etc again. They still lost despite that. It's hard to fight an enemy that's far more numerous, can be everywhere when you can't, and is fielding more medium tanks alone than you field AFV's (heavy tanks, mediums, assault guns, tank destroyers, armored artillery, armored cars, etc) of all types.


I already know that. Your point?

Oh, wait, it seems like you are turnigg this into another ''Marine vs. Guard debate''. No, I could have used Orks just as well, I just have concrete IG numbers. I'm just trying to illustrate the fallacy of making ridiculous statements about SM's always being able to pull of perfect battle plans without any mistakes and always outmaneuvering and outsmarting their foes. Nor did I start the SMvsIG debate here, others had already started it ;)


Sorry, it doesn't work like that. all that Guard strength won't matter if they can't get it into place. 40k contains a vareity of more factors than that. I mean, look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. Abnett says a billion troops where commited in one of the largest and most cumbersome operations in the Imperium. If a billion was considered large for the biggest crusade since Macharius, what does that say about your theories? It says the codex writers and BL writers don't much and don't really pay attention to each other or appreciate the true scale of galactic war.

Abnett writes some good fiction, but has *zero* concept of scale or consistency. In the Gaunts Ghosts books, a handful of Ghosts and some natives wipe out a CSM squad. In Brotherhood of the Snake, a squad of CSM's kills thousands of Dark Eldar.

Inconsistent and with no thought to scale.


Or look at Boros Gate. 7,000 Word Bearers against 300 White Consuls and 10 Billion Guardsmen. After three months of total warfare the Guard had been pushed back itnoa bitter stalemate. Agianst ten billion Guardsmen the Word Bearers were holding their own.

I did read the story about Boros. I found it to read like bad internet fanfic (oh noes nothing can defeat that many marinez!) in regards to the planetary invasion, especially considering how many CSM's die in just about every other paragraph (especially as they are landing and getting shot out of the sky or shot as they are advancing across boulevards). Especially when, after you boil it down, that's about 1.4something million guardsmen per CSM. Not gonna happen.

It's very clear that many BL authors and GW writers have no concept of scale or exactly how big some numbers are or what they mean.

It was hard to take seriously that the CSM's were going to defeat that many guardsmen when they were taking so many casualties just in the immediate vicinity of the main character all the time. Take note also that there was very considerable Titan and non-CSM support and that half the populace was fighting the other half.

Also, the CSM's were losing by the end before the Necrons showed up.


In the end the Guard only won because a Space Marine rescue fleet came in and won the day. It was a massive fleet of just about everything Imperial, not just SM's.


Of course that's all a moot point since I was talking about Calgar himself and how he would win a theoretical victory. Which you boiled down to "I come down, do amazing stuff, and win, you can't do anything hooray!". :shifty:

Sarevok
10-10-2010, 23:01
Well Khaine and Khorne are sorta parts of the same being anyway but that's a whole different debate....

What's important is if a Bloodthirster is better than an Avatar, and it is.
The Bloodthirster's most recent fluff in the Daemon codex says it's the best fighter in the whole galaxy


"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

Lord_Crull
10-10-2010, 23:10
Yes, however when you just say that anytime Calgar shows up and wins due to genius and mobility, that's mary sue, and exactly what was done earlier.


How is that Mary Sue? He is simply a very good general with centuries of experiance with a list of advantages that most, if not all Guard generals don't have.. Is Macharius a Mary Sue for being a good general? Is Creed Mary Sue for annhilating an Eldar raid? I dont' believe I ever said it was easy or he would take no losses at all.



Yes they copied the German tactics, but the Germans were still fighting better, with better troops and better equipment.

That's debatable, but that part of already off-topic.


There likely will never be troops with kill records like Barkmann, Bake, Hartmann, etc again.:

You can't really say that unless another massive world war breaks out. Truth is we have had nothing on the scale of WWII to properly compare that.


They still lost despite that.

As well as a vareity of other factors. The Germans were hardly the uber-elite of the war like you seem to imply.


They still lost despite that. It's hard to fight an enemy that's far more numerous, can be everywhere when you can't, and is fielding more medium tanks alone than you field AFV's (heavy tanks, mediums, assault guns, tank destroyers, armored artillery, armored cars, etc) of all types.


And yet they still could have won for reasons I listed earlier. The Germans did not lose for the sole fact that they were outnumbered. I could go on and list the reasons, but I really don't want to go more off topic than this threat already is.

If what you said was true Alexander never would have conquered Persia, etc, etc.



No, I could have used Orks just as well, I just have concrete IG numbers. I'm just trying to illustrate the fallacy of making ridiculous statements about SM's always being able to pull of perfect battle plans without any mistakes and always outmaneuvering and outsmarting their foes. Nor did I start the SMvsIG debate here, others had already started it ;)


I never said anything about perfect battle plans. My point was generally Marines would hold an advantage because of their own advantages of picking and choosing battles.



Abnett writes some good fiction, but has *zero* concept of scale or consistency. In the Gaunts Ghosts books, a handful of Ghosts and some natives wipe out a CSM squad. In Brotherhood of the Snake, a squad of CSM's kills thousands of Dark Eldar.

Inconsistent and with no thought to scale.


And guess what? The Ghosts are in the Codex. They and other elements of Abnett's writing exist right alongside the numbers you pull out.



I did read the story about Boros. I found it to read like bad internet fanfic (oh noes nothing can defeat that many marinez!) in regards to the planetary invasion, especially considering how many CSM's die in just about every other paragraph (especially as they are landing and getting shot out of the sky or shot as they are advancing across boulevards).

Only against the White Consuls and Necrons, they did far better against the Guard.



It's very clear that many BL authors and GW writers have no concept of scale or exactly how big some numbers are.


That is true.



It was hard to take seriously that the CSM's were going to defeat that many guardsmen when they were taking so many casualties just in the immediate vicinity of the main character all the time. Take note also that there was very considerable Titan and non-CSM support and that half the populace was fighting the other half.


What are you talking about? the Word Bearers had something like a demi-legion of the Frostreaver Titans and they brought only a million cultists. I doont' recall half the Boros population turning against each other.



Also, the CSM's were losing by the end before the Necrons showed up.


They were? Marduk and the others seemed quite confident. I don't see how they were losing.



It was a massive fleet of just about everything Imperial, not just SM's.


Really? I seem to recall a big meeting consisting mostly of Chapter Masters ans suchlike before the battle. Anyway it was the Grey Knights who took out the flagship. But I could probably give you that one, since the fleet was not described in great detail.



Which you boiled down to "I come down, do amazing stuff, and win, you can't do anything hooray!". :shifty:

Nope, sorry, it's merely good application of tactics and combat doctrine.;)

You can say ''Mary Sue'' all you wish, but the fact remains that Calgar is described as a masterful tactician and strategist. Even if Macharius and Creed might match him he is certainly able to defeat anyone less. (i.e the vast majority of Guard officers)

negZero
10-10-2010, 23:54
How is that Mary Sue? He is simply a very good general with centuries of experiance with a list of advantages that most, if not all Guard generals don't have.. Is Macharius a Mary Sue for being a good general? Is Creed Mary Sue for annhilating an Eldar raid? I dont' believe I ever said it was easy or he would take no losses at all.

They may not be a Marty Sue (guys get called Marty instead of Mary), but 2 of those 3 are on the list of being Mary Tzu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaryTzu). Macharius isn't on it since they haven't gone in to the details of his victories yet

Lord_Crull
11-10-2010, 00:10
They may not be a Marty Sue (guys get called Marty instead of Mary), but 2 of those 3 are on the list of being Mary Tzu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MaryTzu). Macharius isn't on it since they haven't gone in to the details of his victories yet

I don't really care too much about TV Tropes's examples. By their own admission they don't follow notability at all. Often I found half least half of their stuff is ethier exaggerated or just plain false.

negZero
11-10-2010, 00:16
I don't really care too much about TV Tropes's examples. By their own admission they don't follow notability at all. Often I found half least half of their stuff is ethier exaggerated or just plain false.

O how did I know you would say that?

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 00:18
Wow, so Calgar never loses?

I'd say that's the coolaide GW writers have been drinking.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
11-10-2010, 00:33
Wow, so Calgar never loses?


I never said he would never lose, don't put words in my mouth. The Swarmlord was able to best Calgar at tactics, and I would love to see a match of wits between say Vect and Calgar.

Rather, if one were to say that Calgar can't beat the average IG officer, then that's just plain ridiculous. Even by Marine standards he is considered good. But that does not mean he is invincible. Nobody is. You put Calgar against an average IG general and my money will be on him most of the time.


O how did I know you would say that?

It's true. I can go and edit the entry right now. Generally I trust the Codices and even they are unreliable at times.

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 01:05
Not to bash the Guard, because they're the mainstay of the Imperium's force, but what point is there in Space Marines if they can't best the Guard?

Why create super-humans to fight the threats a normal man cannot, if said normal man can easily best the super-human?

If Marines don't seem extraordinary, there is little point to them.

Bergen Beerbelly
11-10-2010, 01:45
What I'm getting at Lightning Strike is that without first destroying almost all of the worshippers of the Eldar gods (thus weakening the eldar gods power) and using the energy of all those devoured souls, Slaanesh would never have been able to defeat Khaine, Asuryan, or any of the other gods of the Eldar.

His birth in the Warp by devouring the souls of almost every eldar in existence was the reason he had the power to kill the eldar gods at all. He couldn't have done it any other way. His birth did two things. 1. it took away the eldar worshipers from the eldar dieties, thus weakening their power. 2. it gave the new chaos god more power than it should have had by feeding it so many souls, thus making Slaanesh more powerful for a time than any of the other Chaos Gods.

If Slaanesh had just been another Greater Chaos Daemon that didn't have the means to slay almost every eldar in existence I don't think there would have been any way at all for the Chaos Gods to kill any of the Eldar gods. After all...before Slaanesh, were the Eldar worried at all about the three Chaos Gods? I don't think so.

Lord Asgul
11-10-2010, 02:12
*calls for the Alpha Legion to back up the imperial guard*

I somehow think that Calgar and the Ultramarines' centuries of experience cannot with stand the might of Alpharius, Omegon and the Alpha Legion's thousands of years of combat experience. Besides both the Ultramarines and the Imperial Guard work for the Alpha Legion.

Lord_Crull
11-10-2010, 02:15
*calls for the Alpha Legion to back up the imperial guard*

I somehow think that Calgar and the Ultramarines' centuries of experience cannot with stand the might of Alpharius, Omegon and the Alpha Legion's thousands of years of combat experience. Besides both the Ultramarines and the Imperial Guard work for the Alpha Legion.

It depends on the Legionarrie in question. Some may be millenia old. Some may be only centuries old due to time dialation. some may remember the Heresy, some might not. Some might be new recruits. Remember, not all of the Alpha Legion fled to the Eye. Read Soul Hunter, not all Chaos Marines are truely ten thousand years old.

And I was only talking about Calgar's experiance, not the Ultramarines or Astartes as a whole. I don't intend to wage a Guard or Marines argument. That's not really my main point.

Lord Asgul
11-10-2010, 02:22
It depends on the Legionarrie in question. Some may be millenia old. Some may be only centuries old due to time dialation. some may remember the Heresy, some might not. Some might be new recruits. Remmeber, not all of the Alpha Legion fled to the Eye. Read Soul Hunter, not all Chaos Marines are truely ten thousand years old.

And I was only talking about Calgar's experiance, not the Ultramarines or Astartes as a whole. I don't intend to wage a Guard or Marines argument. That's not really my main point.

I know, I only sort to end it after reading pretty much a page of both you and the other guy trading blows so to speak. I have to get round to reading Soul Hunter at some point. Needless to say; you two were both quite amusing.

Lord_Crull
11-10-2010, 02:27
I know, I only sort to end it after reading pretty much a page of both you and the other guy trading blows so to speak. I have to get round to reading Soul Hunter at some point. Needless to say; you two were both quite amusing.

Soul Hunter is excellent, read it. It's some of the best stuff that Black Library has produced. I pulled out my Night Lords army from the shelves for it.

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 02:36
What I'm getting at Lightning Strike is that without first destroying almost all of the worshippers of the Eldar gods (thus weakening the eldar gods power) and using the energy of all those devoured souls, Slaanesh would never have been able to defeat Khaine, Asuryan, or any of the other gods of the Eldar.

His birth in the Warp by devouring the souls of almost every eldar in existence was the reason he had the power to kill the eldar gods at all. He couldn't have done it any other way. His birth did two things. 1. it took away the eldar worshipers from the eldar dieties, thus weakening their power. 2. it gave the new chaos god more power than it should have had by feeding it so many souls, thus making Slaanesh more powerful for a time than any of the other Chaos Gods.

That's kind of a cop out as far as arguments go. Saying he would have never been able to defeat the Eldar gods without the consumed souls of the Eldar is a moot point, it's those souls that birthed him and gave him his power base.

What do you have in the way of evidence to make the claim that the power he gained from those souls was a temporary boost? I'd be interested in reading it. Because Khorne fought Slaanesh for Khaine and won. If Slaanesh was cracked out on some temporary "soul high", why was Khorne able to still slap him around?

This implies Khorne was stronger, even if your "soul drug" theory is true. Meaning that the Ruinous Powers could have snuffed out the Eldar pantheon at their leisure.


If Slaanesh had just been another Greater Chaos Daemon that didn't have the means to slay almost every eldar in existence I don't think there would have been any way at all for the Chaos Gods to kill any of the Eldar gods. After all...before Slaanesh, were the Eldar worried at all about the three Chaos Gods? I don't think so.

I doubt that they cared of their existence in the first place. The fact Khorne saved Khaine, and Nurgle has claimed Isha as his girlfriend might even imply that they were cozy with the Eldar pantheon.

Drasanil
11-10-2010, 03:01
What do you have in the way of evidence to make the claim that the power he gained from those souls was a temporary boost?

Because Slaanesh destroyed it's own powerbase at the moment of it's birth, it was the most powerful chaos god around after having consumed nearly a galaxy's worth of the most potent psychic race around, but it had nothing left to support it after, so it's power ebbed away and the other gods caught up.

The power of the Chaos Gods is not fixed, at any given moment one of them could be the strongest. Khorne is described as being the most powerfull because at any given time he is the most likely to be on top, it does not mean he always is.


I'd be interested in reading it. Because Khorne fought Slaanesh for Khaine and won. If Slaanesh was cracked out on some temporary "soul high", why was Khorne able to still slap him around?

Khorne wasn't able to slap him/her around, Khaine fought off Slaanesh. He was said to be strongest and most warlike of the eldar gods and left Slaanesh weakened enough by the end of the battle that Slaanesh couldn't destroy him, only scatter his essence. Which also ties in to the above point.


Meaning that the Ruinous Powers could have snuffed out the Eldar pantheon at their leisure.

:eyebrows:

Yes. About as well as they can currently snuff out Gork and Mork at their leisure.... by the way how is that working out for them?

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 03:58
Because Slaanesh destroyed it's own powerbase at the moment of it's birth, it was the most powerful chaos god around after having consumed nearly a galaxy's worth of the most potent psychic race around, but it had nothing left to support it after, so it's power ebbed away and the other gods caught up.

Souls aren't a temporary power boost. Or else the "fate" Eldar are so terrified of wouldn't be quite as frightening, would it? When the Ruinous Powers consume souls, it adds to their permanent power-base. He lost billions of followers when he birthed, but he had their souls regardless - and now had a universe of souls to tap from.

His power-base as a deity was formed from the fall of the Eldar. The second he was birthed, he then had the excess of humans (and various xeno) to feed off of. The quality of the power wouldn't be nearly as delicious, I'm sure, but it's enough to hold his own amongst the other ruinous powers, clearly. As Khorne didn't snuff him out then and there.

I'm curious why this means anything in the first place? "It's no fair, Slaanesh was cheating!". Since when in the hell is 40K about fair fights? I don't care if the sun was in Khaine's eyes, Slaanesh won.

Slaanesh consumed the pantheon regardless of if he was cracked out or not. It also means little considering that he would have been growing in power since then, unlike Khaine - who is fueled by the Eldar race.. ya know, those "dieing out", "edge of extinction" guys.


The power of the Chaos Gods is not fixed, at any given moment one of them could be the strongest. Khorne is described as being the most powerfull because at any given time he is the most likely to be on top, it does not mean he always is.

I'm aware he isn't always the most powerful. He was at the time of Slaanesh's birth though, apparently.


Khorne wasn't able to slap him/her around, Khaine fought off Slaanesh. He was said to be strongest and most warlike of the eldar gods and left Slaanesh weakened enough by the end of the battle that Slaanesh couldn't destroy him, only scatter his essence. Which also ties in to the above point.

Khorne fought Slaanesh for Khaine. Khaine is still around, so clearly he did slap him around.

Asuryan was the most powerful Eldar god. You're mistaken. He's the one who played the role of "mommy" for the Eldar pantheon. When Khaine was a jerk, the gods complained to Asuryan who kept him in check.

If Khaine was the most powerful, he would have taken Isha by force. Instead of pouting and plotting against Kurnos.


Yes. About as well as they can currently snuff out Gork and Mork at their leisure.... by the way how is that working out for them?

Is this an attempt to be inflammatory? I'm not sure why you're straying off-topic.

Drasanil
11-10-2010, 04:22
Souls aren't a temporary power boost. Or else the "fate" Eldar are so terrified of wouldn't be quite as frightening, would it? When the Ruinous Powers consume souls, it adds to their permanent power-base. He lost billions of followers when he birthed, but he had their souls regardless - and now had a universe of souls to tap from.

It's not just souls, it's living creatures that generate emotions. A soul on it's own doesn't really generate anything, you need a living flesh and blood creature to constantly generate emotions which feeds the gods power and when Slaanesh consumed the eldar, he lost 90%+ of the living food supply that gave birth to him/her.


I'm aware he isn't always the most powerful. He was at the time of Slaanesh's birth though, apparently.

No he wasn't. Slaanesh was the most powerful at the time of it's birth. When was the last time you saw Khorne create anything near the scale of the Eye of Terror?


Khorne fought Slaanesh for Khaine. Khaine is still around, so clearly he did slap him around.

The eldar codex murdered pantheon section disagrees with you which is stuff re-printed from 2nd edition. Khaine fought off Slaanesh.


Asuryan was the most powerful Eldar god. You're mistaken. He's the one who played the role of "mommy" for the Eldar pantheon. When Khaine was a jerk, the gods complained to Asuryan who kept him in check.

He cut off the Warp from Reality, if he were that much more powerful than Khaine, he could have taken less drastic measures to prevent the him going ape-**** on the eldar. Current evidence is he couldn't actually hold off the Khaine otherwise. Plus once again the eldar codex states Khaine was the strongest and most warlike god, read into it what you will.


Is this an attempt to be inflammatory? I'm not sure why you're straying off-topic.

No more than your claim that the Chaos Gods could have snuffed out the eldar pantheon on a whim. Point is they couldn't, no more than they can snuff out Gork and Mork on a whim.

You seem to be missing the entire point of the Fall and the Birth of Slaanesh. With the exception of the Necrons and the C'tan, the eldar and by extention the gods were unchallenged nothing could topple them not even Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle, the entire point of it is that the eldar ruled supreme and brought about their own destruction.

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 04:35
It's not just souls, it's living creatures that generate emotions. A soul on it's own doesn't really generate anything, you need a living flesh and blood creature to constantly generate emotions which feeds the gods power and when Slaanesh consumed the eldar, he lost 90%+ of the living food supply that gave birth to him/her.

Again, why does this matter? Slaanesh has grown significantly since her birth. Even if the power to smash the pantheon was temporary, it already happened.

Khaine is the only survivor, and he is eking out a living as a lawn-ornament on Craftworlds now. Oh, well - the Laughing God is still around, technically.


No he wasn't. Slaanesh was the most powerful at the time of it's birth. When was the last time you saw Khorne create anything near the scale of the Eye of Terror?

I was basing it from the story in which Khorne fights Slaanesh for Khaine.


The eldar codex murdered pantheon section disagrees with you which is stuff re-printed from 2nd edition. Khaine fought off Slaanesh.

If we're going to use the Eldar codex version, at least stick to it. Slaanesh was exhausted from defeating the entire Eldar pantheon, so he shattered Khaine, and tossed him into real-space. Khaine didn't "hold his own" or make some defiant last-stand.


He cut off the Warp from Reality, if he were that much more powerful than Khaine, he could have taken less drastic measures to prevent the him going ape-**** on the eldar. Current evidence is he couldn't actually hold off the Khaine otherwise. Plus once again the eldar codex states Khaine was the strongest and most warlike god, read into it what you will.

I'd say putting Khaine in time-out and cursing his hands to bleed for all eternity shows quite clearly that Asuryan was the top dog of the pantheon. If Khaine was more powerful, why not claim the throne? He was the god of war, it's not like the idea of a power play would offend his delicate sensibilities.


No more than your claim that the Chaos Gods could have snuffed out the eldar pantheon on a whim. Point is they couldn't, no more than they can snuff out Gork and Mork on a whim.

My comment was never intended to be inflammatory, and was actually on topic. Its my actual opinion based upon that evidence I have to work with.


You seem to be missing the entire point of the Fall and the Birth of Slaanesh. With the exception of the Necrons and the C'tan, the eldar and by extention the gods were unchallenged nothing could topple them not even Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle, the entire point of it is that the eldar ruled supreme and brought about their own destruction.

We'll have to disagree on that. The Eldar empire thriving is because they hid from the enslaver plague, and the Necrons got sleepy. They weren't some unstoppable power-house; they were the only survivors. It's easy to take the throne when there is nobody to challenge you.

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 04:43
We'll have to disagree on that. The Eldar empire thriving is because they hid from the enslaver plague, and the Necrons got sleepy. They weren't some unstoppable power-house; they were the only survivors. It's easy to take the throne when there is nobody to challenge you.

For 60 million years?

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 04:45
For 60 million years?

The slate was cleaned. In the time it took for other species to come about and advance technologically, the Eldar had plenty of time to secure their power-base.

Out of curiosity, why do you sign your posts? We can look to the left of your posting and see who you are, you know.

SgtTaters
11-10-2010, 04:47
They weren't some unstoppable power-house; they were the only survivors. It's easy to take the throne when there is nobody to challenge you.

what were the orks doing

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 04:48
what were the orks doing

Fighting amongst themselves and living in squalor. ;)

Drasanil
11-10-2010, 04:57
Again, why does this matter? Slaanesh has grown significantly since her birth. Even if the power to smash the pantheon was temporary, it already happened.

Khaine is the only survivor, and he is eking out a living as a lawn-ornament on Craftworlds now.

We're talking about Slaanesh at the time of her birth, not as she currently is.


I was basing it from the story in which Khorne fights Slaanesh for Khaine.

From where? I remember hearing about it, but as far as I know it's just fan speculation based on the Nurgle/Isha thing.


If we're going to use the Eldar codex version, at least stick to it. Slaanesh was exhausted from defeating the entire Eldar pantheon, so he shattered Khaine, and tossed him into real-space. Khaine didn't "hold his own" or make some defiant last-stand.

"Tradition has it that Slaanesh and the Bloody-handed God fought a titanic battle in the Warp. Despite Khaine's divine might and mastery of war, Slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods, eventually proved the stronger."

Ergo, had Slaanesh not consumed the eldar pantheon Khaine would have Curb stomped it. Which is also a fairly good bet that Khaine was stronger than Khorne at the time.


I'd say putting Khaine in time-out and cursing his hands to bleed for all eternity shows quite clearly that Asuryan was the top dog of the pantheon. If Khaine was more powerful, why not claim the throne? He was the god of war, it's not like the idea of a power play would offend his delicate sensibilities.

Mythologies work in wierd ways, it's quite possible that Asuryan was stronger than Khaine for a long portion of the eldar civilisation but that by the time of the fall that wasn't the case, especially given how easily Slaanesh was able to devour most of the pantheon save Khaine and Ceogorach, while Isha had to be rescued by Nurgle.


My comment was never intended to be inflammatory, and was actually on topic. Its my actual opinion based upon that evidence I have to work with.

But the evidence is that for the better part of the 65 million years prior to the Fall chaos was a non-issue. Which would indicate that the Big Three didn't pose much of a threat to the eldar or their gods.


We'll have to disagree on that. The Eldar empire thriving is because they hid from the enslaver plague, and the Necrons got sleepy. They weren't some unstoppable power-house; they were the only survivors. It's easy to take the throne when there is nobody to challenge you.

Which happened 65 millions years prior to the Fall, that's a lot of time to become an unstoppable galatic power-house, which is exactly what pre-fall eldar were. Further more they were not the only survivors, the orks survived to and they didn't become an issue untill after the eldar empire collapsed.

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 05:03
The slate was cleaned. In the time it took for other species to come about and advance technologically, the Eldar had plenty of time to secure their power-base.


? It wasn't cleaned. If you ignore the other aliens created at the time, you still had the ORKS who lived alonside the eldar for that 60 million years. I doubt they would have sat still for that long while the eldar carved up the galaxy.



Out of curiosity, why do you sign your posts? We can look to the left of your posting and see who you are, you know.

You know, in the ten years I've been part of Portent/Warseer, you're pretty much the only person to ever ask that. I'm not the only person that signs their posts. It started as a form of politeness and has simply become part of my posting.

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 05:14
We're talking about Slaanesh at the time of her birth, not as she currently is.

Not quite. This entire argument came about when Beer wanted proof that the Chaos gods were stronger than Khaine, which they obviously are currently.

Regardless, Slaanesh devoured a pantheon of Eldar gods. That's no small feat for a newborn. The fact he couldn't handle Khaine after feasting doesn't make the case for Khaine being incredibly powerful, it can mean as little as Slaanesh having already blew his load on fighting the more powerful gods, like Asuryan.


From where? I remember hearing about it, but as far as I know it's just fan speculation based on the Nurgle/Isha thing.

I'll have to dig through the masses of fluff I have gathered as I honestly don't know off-hand.


"Tradition has it that Slaanesh and the Bloody-handed God fought a titanic battle in the Warp. Despite Khaine's divine might and mastery of war, Slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods, eventually proved the stronger."

Ergo, had Slaanesh not consumed the eldar pantheon Khaine would have Curb stomped it. Which is also a fairly good bet that Khaine was stronger than Khorne at the time.

"Woulda, shoulda, coulda". Slaanesh beat him is the most important point.


Mythologies work in wierd ways, it's quite possible that Asuryan was stronger than Khaine for a long portion of the eldar civilisation but that by the time of the fall that wasn't the case, especially given how easily Slaanesh was able to devour most of the pantheon save Khaine and Ceogorach, while Isha had to be rescued by Nurgle.

He was able to devour the others easily because of the fact that they represented aspects of himself. That's part of why he didn't consume the laughing god. I'd imagine Khaine did not have much in common with Slaanesh, as he's much more akin to Khorne, so in that way he was slightly protected.


But the evidence is that for the better part of the 65 million years prior to the Fall chaos was a non-issue. Which would indicate that the Big Three didn't pose much of a threat to the eldar or their gods.

It's possible that because the other Ruinous Powers were born of humans, that they weren't as powerful at the time. I'll admit that. They probably weren't a huge issue as they had little to work with with humanity only feeding them a trickle in comparison to the tap they have now.

I assume that Khorne was powerful even then, based on the Khorne battling Slaanesh story.


Which happened 65 millions years prior to the Fall, that's a lot of time to become an unstoppable galatic power-house, which is exactly what pre-fall eldar were. Further more they were not the only survivors, the orks survived to and they didn't become an issue untill after the eldar empire collapsed.

It's always bothered me that the Orks survived, honestly. The Eldar play hide and seek in the webway to escape, but the Orks somehow managed to avoid the enslavers and Necron detection.

I imagine that they must have been culled somewhat, to the point that they weren't on the radar. Perhaps a single world had spores thrive, etc. So I'd imagine they wouldn't be able to truly challenge Eldar for the throne early on, and by the time they could, the Eldar had become a true "empire" able to neutralize the primitive threat that is the Ork.


? It wasn't cleaned. If you ignore the other aliens created at the time, you still had the ORKS who lived alonside the eldar for that 60 million years. I doubt they would have sat still for that long while the eldar carved up the galaxy.

See above.


You know, in the ten years I've been part of Portent/Warseer, you're pretty much the only person to ever ask that. I'm not the only person that signs their posts. It started as a form of politeness and has simply become part of my posting.

I only ask because in some posts where you type little more than a sentence is sticks out like a sore thumb, and just seems unnecessary, but that's just my opinion.

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 05:51
It's always bothered me that the Orks survived, honestly. The Eldar play hide and seek in the webway to escape, but the Orks somehow managed to avoid the enslavers and Necron detection.

I imagine that they must have been culled somewhat, to the point that they weren't on the radar. Perhaps a single world had spores thrive, etc. So I'd imagine they wouldn't be able to truly challenge Eldar for the throne early on, and by the time they could, the Eldar had become a true "empire" able to neutralize the primitive threat that is the Ork.


It's never said anywhere that the eldar hid in the webway afaik.

Whether it bothers you or not, that's what happened. The orks weren't the only things to survive that time, there were other aliens as well. There is nothing to suggest that the orks OR the eldar survived in larger or fewer numbers so any theories on that are completely baseless.

There is only one other number we can use - the eldar empire reached its zenith 1 million years before previously.

That's 50+ million years of them not controlling the galaxy. Considering that humans have gone from 10,000 people to 6.5 billion in only 50,000 years and that orks breed faster than humans, the orks would be in their trillions a million years after the war in heaven.

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 06:00
It's never said anywhere that the eldar hid in the webway afaik.

Strange, I recall reading that. I'll have to look.

How did they survive then? The Necrons only went to sleep as they thought that nothing was alive to consume. Why would both the enslavers and the Necrons not destroy all life, unless it was hidden?

That doesn't make a lick of sense.


Whether it bothers you or not, that's what happened. The orks weren't the only things to survive that time, there were other aliens as well. There is nothing to suggest that the orks OR the eldar survived in larger or fewer numbers so any theories on that are completely baseless.

What other aliens survived, and where did you get that information? Or is that a "baseless" theory?


There is only one other number we can use - the eldar empire reached its zenith 1 million years before previously.

That's 50+ million years of them not controlling the galaxy. Considering that humans have gone from 10,000 people to 6.5 billion in only 50,000 years and that orks breed faster than humans, the orks would be in their trillions a million years after the war in heaven.

How were the Eldar not eliminated then? The Orks are physically superior to Eldar, and have a knack for copying technology, even if to a crude standard. Given that they would outnumber the Eldar drastically at the rate that they reproduce, how are the Eldar alive? How is anyone alive? :confused:

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 06:05
There were several races mentioned in the Necron codex as being brought forth by the old ones. Of those at least one other apart from the Eldar/orks survived - the 'technology mimicking Jokaero'.

How were humans not elimintated by orks? We existed on earth for only a few hundred thousand years before expanding out into the galaxy. One ork spore and byebye humans.

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 06:10
There were several races mentioned in the Necron codex as being brought forth by the old ones. Of those at least one other apart from the Eldar/orks survived - the 'technology mimicking Jokaero'.

Well that kills a bit of the "GRIMDARK" behind the Necrons. Can't even properly harvest all life. The story of 40K is all about half-assed armies that can never finish what they start.

The Necrons supposedly cleanse all life from the verse, but get sleepy and take a nap.

The Eldar are designed to fight the Necrons, but instead of killing the lazy robots in their sleep, they become porn addicts and birth an evil deity.

Etc, etc.


How were humans not elimintated by orks? We existed on earth for only a few hundred thousand years before expanding out into the galaxy. One ork spore and byebye humans.

I already asked that myself. It doesn't make a bit of sense that the Orks just vanished until the fall. This doesn't seem very well thought-out.

I'm going to go with the Emperor shrouding the planet from the unclean eyes of xenos. The Emperor protects, literally. ;)

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 06:18
Well my opinion is that humanity was inadvertantly protected by the eldar empire. The centre of the eldar empire was the eye of terror, which galactically close to the eldar. The eldar empire's supremecy may have protected the earth under an 'umbrella'.

The other thing is that the Dragon is on Mars. If the eldar wanted to leave the c'tan alone then they may have left the earth alone by association.

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 06:28
Well my opinion is that humanity was inadvertantly protected by the eldar empire. The centre of the eldar empire was the eye of terror, which galactically close to the eldar. The eldar empire's supremecy may have protected the earth under an 'umbrella'.

The other thing is that the Dragon is on Mars. If the eldar wanted to leave the c'tan alone then they may have left the earth alone by association.

The Eldar have never had a very high opinion of humanity. Why would they take the risk of humanity waking the dragon, or worse, freeing him?

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 06:32
As in, 'the c'tan is hiding on that planet' and humanity evolved in its shadow. Not that they new the humans were there.

The emperor only appeared around 8,000BC and had no knowledge of aliens at the time. So there would have been hundreds of thousands of years of time where humanity had no emperor to rely on for protection.

Hellebore

Carlos
11-10-2010, 06:59
GW can retcon what they like but I remember the Ultramarines at Ichar IV when Calgar had a krak grenade (from his own side) scatter on his head, reduce him to 1W and then he cowers behind a ruin all battle with an Apothecary standing next to him.
Thats the Calgar I remember.

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 07:32
As in, 'the c'tan is hiding on that planet' and humanity evolved in its shadow. Not that they new the humans were there.

The emperor only appeared around 8,000BC and had no knowledge of aliens at the time. So there would have been hundreds of thousands of years of time where humanity had no emperor to rely on for protection.

They were without protection for a while, definitely. As a psyker of his power, I don't know if I'd consider him blind to the threat of aliens though.

Hellebore
11-10-2010, 07:38
He was a product of neolithic human society. They had a connection to the warp and the denizens within, but they had no concept of aliens. He wasn't created as a defence against aliens but as a means for the shamans to protect their way of life and humanity along with it (as they believed their way to be the best and thus the only way for humanity to survive).

Hellebore

Lightning Strike!
11-10-2010, 08:24
He was a product of neolithic human society. They had a connection to the warp and the denizens within, but they had no concept of aliens. He wasn't created as a defence against aliens but as a means for the shamans to protect their way of life and humanity along with it (as they believed their way to be the best and thus the only way for humanity to survive).

Yes, but Magnus can "spirit-walk" to other parts of the galaxy via the warp. Now, he requires sorcery to go truly great distances, but with just his normal gifts he could wander between the planets surrounding Prospero easily.

I don't think it a stretch to imagine the Emperor taking a look around, or sensing the powerful psychic souls of Eldar in the warp.

Iracundus
11-10-2010, 10:13
In examining the whole Slaanesh vs. Khaine and the rest of the Eldar gods, people seem to have gotten a few things mixed up. Hence it is always important to actually examine what is actually written directly:



The chief and oldest of all the gods is Asuryan, the Phoenixd King. His first brother is Kaela Mensha Khaine, which means bloody-handed Khaine. Khaine is the god of both war and murder, and he symbolises wanton destruction and martial prowess. p. 5, 4th ed. Eldar Codex

There is nothing there about Asuryan being the most powerful in sheer blunt force power, just that he was the oldest and the chief among them. This distinction is important to make. Being the king or leader doesn't have to necessarily mean you're the strongest. The leaders of the nations today aren't huge muscular strong men.

Khaine for all his bloody actions appears to have at least had some sense of honor and to have obeyed at least the letter of the law as laid down by Asuryan. He never directly attempted to defy the barrier separating mortals from the gods, and went reporting to Asuryan when he heard Isha talking to the Eldar. He likewise appears to have struck a bargain with Vaul for the release of Isha and Kurnous in good faith and did abide by his side of the bargain. Why might Khaine do all of this? Probably because Khaine then, just as Khaine in his Avatars "today" in 40K, was never entirely about uncontrolled maniacal violence and there was always at least some element of control or restraint.



Going on to the issue of Slaanesh consuming the gods and the battle with Khaine, it is first worth quoting the entire segment from the 4th edition Eldar Codex:



The Eldar say that their gods are dead: Slaanesh destroyed them and stole their power. Nonetheless there remained some ideas and values that were lodged so firmly into the Eldar psyche that not even ultimate degradation could erase them from the racial consciousness. This incorruptible spirit is represented by the most powerful of the ancient Eldar gods.

Two Eldar gods of old survived the Fall. The Laughing God Cegorach, worshipped by the enigmatic and lethal Harlequins, survived through guile alone. The other survived through might; he that is known as Kaela Mensha Khaine, the strongest and most warlike of all the Eldar deities.

Tradition has it that Slaanesh and the Bloody-handed God fought a titanic battle in the Warp. Despite Khaine's divine might and mastery of war, Slaanesh, glutted upon the power of the gods, eventually proved the stronger.

Exhausted from the struggle, the Great Enemy was not powerful enough to destroy the Eldar god completely. Instead Kaela Mensha Khaine was rent into many fragments and driven out of the Warp forever. Each fragment ultimately came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the BLoody-handed God. These Avatars of Khaine lead the Eldar to war to the present day. p. 6, 4th edition Eldar Codex

Now in the quoted segment above, it clearly and unambiguously states Khaine was the strongest of all the Eldar deities, not Asuryan.

The key appositive phrase "Exhausted from the struggle" from its positioning as part of a sentence placed chronologically after the battle with Khaine shows the struggle being referred to is the struggle with Khaine. Nowhere in the earlier segment is there a titanic battle or other struggle with other gods mentioned.

Indeed the reference to "ultimate degradation" being unable to erase some ideas from the racial consciousness means there were others that were. These is an oblique reference to the other Eldar gods.

Immediately prior to the Fall, the values and virtues represented by the traditional Eldar gods had been eclipsed and ignored by the vast majority of the Eldar population (except among the minority that would be Exodites or Craftworlders). Wisdom, restraint, and judgement (Asuryan) was clearly no longer in practice. The old hunting and wilderness deity of Kurnous and the mother goddess figure of Isha would likely have been positively quaint for an Eldar empire at its zenith of technological power. Just as warp gods such as Slaanesh can grow fat and bloated with power from the fodder of souls, so too can the reverse happen. The traditional Eldar gods would have been starved of power. They may have still existed immediately prior to the Fall but they were likely not the vibrant deities they were previously.

Why should Khaine have somehow been different? Perhaps the violent dark nature of the Eldar psyche was due to their original purpose as a weapon of the Old Ones from the War in Heaven and was thus deeply ingrained in their psyche. Perhaps some of the excesses of the pre-Fall Eldar, such as unrestrained bloodshed as mirrored in the Dark Eldar and the Incubi, kept up some stream of power to Khaine while the other gods had their streams dry up in comparison.

Idaan
11-10-2010, 16:02
How did they survive then? The Necrons only went to sleep as they thought that nothing was alive to consume. Why would both the enslavers and the Necrons not destroy all life, unless it was hidden?The Eldar worlds that later evolved into the Eldar empire were surrounded by the Necron pylons which smoothed out the tides of Warp, probably shielding them from Enslaver attention. Necrons went to sleep before finishing the genocide for widely known reason, so there's no point in repeating that.[/QUOTE]


What other aliens survived, and where did you get that information? Or is that a "baseless" theory?
Necron Codex mentions Hrud, K'nib, Rashan and Jokaero as Old One-created races. Of these all except Rashan are known to exist in the M41. Also, in "Legion" the Cabal (a council of most powerful alien species, some of them certainly post-singularitarian) is said to have fought Chaos for at least 10 millions of years, which is 9 millions of years longer than the Eldar Empire has existed. From the novel, it doesn't seem like the Cabal is an upstart to the hegemony of the Eldar, more probably the other way around.[/QUOTE]


How were the Eldar not eliminated then? The Orks are physically superior to Eldar, and have a knack for copying technology, even if to a crude standard. Given that they would outnumber the Eldar drastically at the rate that they reproduce, how are the Eldar alive? How is anyone alive? :confused:How exactly are the Eldar physically inferior to the Orks? And we don't know if the Eldar reproduction rate was as slow as it is now, though it is not probable when their goddess of fertility was still with them.


The Eldar have never had a very high opinion of humanity. Why would they take the risk of humanity waking the dragon, or worse, freeing him? We only know that they don't think of them highly now, after a galaxy-wide campaign to take over Eldar worlds and exterminate their race at the time of their greatest weakness. It's very probable that the pre-Fall Craftworlds traded with humans, what with them being the second largest galactic civilisation.



Now in the quoted segment above, it clearly and unambiguously states Khaine was the strongest of all the Eldar deities, not Asuryan.

The key appositive phrase "Exhausted from the struggle" from its positioning as part of a sentence placed chronologically after the battle with Khaine shows the struggle being referred to is the struggle with Khaine. Nowhere in the earlier segment is there a titanic battle or other struggle with other gods mentioned.

Indeed the reference to "ultimate degradation" being unable to erase some ideas from the racial consciousness means there were others that were. These is an oblique reference to the other Eldar gods.

Immediately prior to the Fall, the values and virtues represented by the traditional Eldar gods had been eclipsed and ignored by the vast majority of the Eldar population (except among the minority that would be Exodites or Craftworlders). Wisdom, restraint, and judgement (Asuryan) was clearly no longer in practice. The old hunting and wilderness deity of Kurnous and the mother goddess figure of Isha would likely have been positively quaint for an Eldar empire at its zenith of technological power. Just as warp gods such as Slaanesh can grow fat and bloated with power from the fodder of souls, so too can the reverse happen. The traditional Eldar gods would have been starved of power. They may have still existed immediately prior to the Fall but they were likely not the vibrant deities they were previously.

Why should Khaine have somehow been different? Perhaps the violent dark nature of the Eldar psyche was due to their original purpose as a weapon of the Old Ones from the War in Heaven and was thus deeply ingrained in their psyche. Perhaps some of the excesses of the pre-Fall Eldar, such as unrestrained bloodshed as mirrored in the Dark Eldar and the Incubi, kept up some stream of power to Khaine while the other gods had their streams dry up in comparison.
Precisely. With maybe the exception of Kurnous not being relevant - "Path of the Warrior" suggests that at some point he became more Dionyseus-like figure, associated more with feasts and general "party-hard" and less tribal hunter-god. But your example applies to other gods as well - Morai-Heg, the goddess of hidden knowledge was unnecessary in a society that possessed all knowledge, etc etc.

I'd only like to add that you can't base the relative power levels of Eldar gods purely on the fact that some of them were devoured by Slaanesh and others not. It was not a boxing match (as much as you can have a boxing match between clouds of sentient emotion), but a game of rock paper scissors. All of the old gods were tainted by excess and decadence, drawing them into Slaanesh's "area of influence". It doesn't matter if they were stronger than him or not - he was able to drain these parts of their power that belonged to his portfolio. Only Khaine was untainted and more associated with war and bloodshed than self-indulgence - that's why he belonged to the vortex opposed to Slaanesh - Khorne. That's what the myth about Khorne fighting for him represents, it's not meant to be taken literally. Cegorach with his self-mockery and manipulative tendencies was more of Nurgle/Tzeentch, which allowed him to transfer his potential unscathed into the Webway. Isha as a fertility goddess probably belonged at least partially (as it's not a widely recognised myth - only one Craftworld believes it, but this never stopped people for taking it as 100% true) to Nurgle. It's not as simple as god A > god B.

eldargal
12-10-2010, 01:20
Personally I think the Isha-Nurgle story is probable, if only because the god of disease has not succeeded in creating a plague to wipe out humanity despite the Imperium's medical technology stagnating. Isha 'leaking' cures to the galaxy makes more sense (in my opinion) than Nurgle not being able to outwit the Imperiums medical establishment.

Lord Lorne Walkier
12-10-2010, 02:06
For me it's the Word Bearers Legion. Anytime you see Traitor legion dying in large numbers or acting all evil / Keystone cop like its them. I think this changes with the new book First Heretic.

Idaan
18-12-2010, 10:29
As of "Prospero burns" I think the answer to OP's question is clear:


‘The things we fought in Kobolt space,’ said Korine quietly, ‘they were lethal and proud. They had no interest in human ways or human business, and they were quite capable of fighting us to a standstill. They had mighty vessels, like cities. I saw one of them. I was part of an assault against it. Someone called it Scintilla City because it sparkled like it was all made of glass. We later found out it was called Thuyelsa in their language, and it was a structure they called a craftworld. Anyway, we never worked out why they were fighting us or what they were trying to defend, except perhaps that they were trying to keep us at bay, or keep for themselves whatever it was they had, but you knew, you just knew inside yourself they had something worth defending. A legacy, a history, a culture. And it was all lost.’

Korine looked down into his flask, as if some truth might lurk inside in the dark. Hawser suspected he might have been looking in that very same place for an answer for quite some time.

‘At the end,’ Korine said, ‘they began to plead. The Wolves were upon them, and the city-vessel was shattering around them, and they realised that they were going to lose everything. They began to plead for terms, as if anything was better than losing everything. We never really understood what they were trying to tell us, or what kind of surrender they were trying to make. I personally believe that they would have given all of their lives if Scintilla City had been allowed to survive. But it was too late. The Wolves couldn’t be called off. They sacked it. The Wolves destroyed it all. There wasn’t even anything left for us to salvage, no measure for us to plunder, nothing of value to claim as a prize. The Wolves destroyed it all.’
So yeah. How many is that now? Anyone still counting?

KharnTheBetrayer01
18-12-2010, 11:34
"I would love to see a match of wits between say Vect and Calgar."

Would you, really?

You'd like to see Marneus Calgar arrange his battle-line perfecly, command his troops with a skill beyond mortal men towards a fleeting, unseen foe... and then for Vect to use a wormhole to drop something heavy and explody on Calgars head?

Vect doesn't play fair. Read the codex, in all but one example given he uses webway gates, Black holes or wormholes to devastating effect. I can't imagine he'd give a mere mon-keigh any better treatment.

w00tm0ng3r
18-12-2010, 11:46
As of "Prospero burns" I think the answer to OP's question is clear:


So yeah. How many is that now? Anyone still counting?

Well we're at 16 direct kills (in combat) and 5 indirect kills (blowing up the craftworld). This is all in 3 years, so 7 Avatars die every year in real time... Anyway for the list:

Direct Kills
30,000 ish- Fulgrim
37,999- Daemon Prince
40,786- Planetstrike, massed battle cannons
40,843- Sanguinor
40,888- Calgar
40,992- Iyanden
40,999- DoW1- Gabriel Angelos + Isidor Akios
-Winter Assault- bloodthirster
-Dark Crusade- librarian
-Soulstorm- massed lasgun fire
-DoW2- Blood Ravens
41,000 (OH ****)- Chaos Rising, BRs again
Indeterminate time- Heartslayer (Keeper of Secrets)
Indeterminate time-3 Avatars, WD368, slimed by Nurgle daemons and killed by keeper of secrets

Indirect Kills
Gothic War so around 40,142- Bel-Shammon (Shadowpoint), probably fleet action
40,812- Malantai, Doom of Malantai
40,852- Idharae, Invaders chapter
Anaen- Baharroth’s homeworld
Thuyelsa- Space Wolves, Prospero burns

Edit: in universe, 12 Avatars have died in the last 214 years, 10 in direct combat.

Iracundus
18-12-2010, 11:54
Anaen- Baharroth’s homeworld


What source is this from?

KharnTheBetrayer01
18-12-2010, 11:56
12 Avatars have died in the last two decades?

Considering nearly that many Bloodthirsters died in the First war for Armageddon alone (Angrons Retinue), its not as bad as it sounds.

Can we really count Avatars that have potentially died due to a craftworld falling?

Iracundus
18-12-2010, 12:01
12 Avatars have died in the last two decades?

Considering nearly that many Bloodthirsters died in the First war for Armageddon alone (Angrons Retinue), its not as bad as it sounds.


The Avatars have often died in less than epic ways whereas the Bloodthirsters were with the Daemon Primarch Angron and required an enormous commitment of Grey Knights.



Can we really count Avatars that have potentially died due to a craftworld falling?

Certainly as they are dead and unable to be revived without a sacrifice. Their loss is even more significant and permanent than those from still living Craftworlds that can revive theirs.

KharnTheBetrayer01
18-12-2010, 12:19
While we can count them as dead, I don't think we can count those instances as times when an Avatar has been used as a punching bag. Because the Avatar isn't humbled specifically, and in circumstances when a whole craftworld is wiped out, its generally an massive force and one or two big characters involved.

"The Avatars have often died in less than epic ways"

..Taking the full fire of a Space Marine chapter, being pounded by terminators and getting closer that anyone since Swarmlord of killing Marneus Calgar isn't epic now?
Why do people always forget that Calgar had to be carried off the battlefield after that particular exchange?

Iracundus
18-12-2010, 12:23
..Taking the full fire of a Space Marine chapter, being pounded by terminators and getting closer that anyone since Swarmlord of killing Marneus Calgar isn't epic now?
Why do people always forget that Calgar had to be carried off the battlefield after that particular exchange?

And there are exactly zero effects from such supposedly serious wounds, and the same goes for the Swarmlord battle. There are no consequences or sense of any risk or loss in return for the victory.

When Tycho was felled by a Weirdboy, he suffered loss in the form of a paralyzed face and being consumed by hatred for Orks. His character suffered and changed as a result. Things didn't just bounce back to status quo.

KharnTheBetrayer01
18-12-2010, 12:49
What consequences should Marneus face? He's a Chapter Master rather than a company champion, he's wearing the best armour and wielding some of the most powerful weapons of any chapter around, and he's damn good at what he does. Why is it so wrong that he gets to win against the Odd?

That said, hasn't he lost all his limbs and half his face? Those are some considerable consequences in my book.

Nazguire
18-12-2010, 12:52
Personally I think the Isha-Nurgle story is probable, if only because the god of disease has not succeeded in creating a plague to wipe out humanity despite the Imperium's medical technology stagnating. Isha 'leaking' cures to the galaxy makes more sense (in my opinion) than Nurgle not being able to outwit the Imperiums medical establishment.


I think that story is more metaphorical. Imperial technology does advance, just bloody slowly. I see it as more that Nurgle's Warp plagues have flaws in them due to part of his vortex having compassion and resilient emotions floating around in it, resulting in less than 100% effective, Humanity destroying epidemics.

That's just my interpretation though. I don't buy into the Gods actually having a physical form, palaces to hang out in and courts of scantily clad Daemonettes skipping through the hills with Bloodletters, as the Daemons Codex goes on about.

Idaan
18-12-2010, 13:03
What source is this from?

Lexicanum. :rolleyes:


12 Avatars have died in the last two decades?

Considering nearly that many Bloodthirsters died in the First war for Armageddon alone (Angrons Retinue), its not as bad as it sounds.

Can we really count Avatars that have potentially died due to a craftworld falling?How many Chapter Masters and Chapters have been lost in the fluff written since 4th edition?

Nazguire
18-12-2010, 13:13
Lexicanum. :rolleyes:

How many Chapter Masters and Chapters have been lost in the fluff written since 4th edition?

A fair few actually...

Shadow Wolves
White Consuls Chapter Master
Black Consuls were almost wiped out by the Word Bearers
Invaders have been smashed by Alaitoc (? or Biel-Tan) and consist of three companys IIRC
Marines Errant lost most of their command staff in IA: 9
Emperor's Swords

That's just off the top of my head.

Iracundus
18-12-2010, 19:49
A fair few actually...

White Consuls Chapter Master

One of their 2 Masters.



Black Consuls were almost wiped out by the Word Bearers

Almost wiped out is not the same as wiped out, and does not preclude their Chapter Master surviving.



Invaders have been smashed by Alaitoc (? or Biel-Tan) and consist of three companys IIRC

See above. Again, almost wiped out by Alaitoc is not the same as actually being wiped.



Marines Errant lost most of their command staff in IA: 9

Again the same.

Note how many of these are "almost" but GW never finishes them off.

Idaan
18-12-2010, 22:11
My thoughts exactly. The losses can be quickly replaced, as seen with Blood Angels reduced to 50 Marines after the first Sin of Damnation Space Hulk mission - and then again if you count James Swallow's novels. As seen in "Creation of a Space Marine", you can grow a Chapter in 55 years.

MajorWesJanson
18-12-2010, 22:46
As seen in "Creation of a Space Marine", you can grow a Chapter in 55 years.

The Mechanicus can grow Geneseed for a chapter in 55 years. Not the same as a chapter rebuilding it's losses and regaining the previous level of experience.


My vote is still for Emperor Titans.
Helsreach
Storm of Iron
Dark Apostle
Titanicus
Mechanicum
Winter Assault

Giving an Emperor a name is a death sentence.

Ordinatus are up there as well, usually dying at the same time as Emperors in Dark Apostle and Mechanicus.

Asavar88
18-12-2010, 22:57
Lol this is why big bad marine heroez never meet a C'tan in combat - pussies!

In Khaine's favour though; he one-up'd the Nightbringer once. I'd like to see Calgar pull that shiz. Oh wait, writers protection
-.- :p

Lord_Crull
18-12-2010, 23:10
Black Consuls were almost wiped out by the Word Bearers


I'm pretty sure they were wiped out completely.

On the subject of lost chapters, I believe the tyranids ate a Chapter or two in their Codex.

Kage2020
18-12-2010, 23:44
As an Eldar fan I have absolutely no problem with the Avatar being handed his own **** on a plate, with a helping of apple sauce and whipped cream to-boot. I just think that when it is done it should be appropriately significant. If the major gribbly of a race is taken down by another major gribbly, they should probably match in gribbliness. A Primarch taking down an Avatar? If the combat is awesome and the titanic forces involved are represented? Excellent. On the other hand, if the major gribbly of the Eldar brays like a donkey and then gets bitch-slapped to show awesomeoness beyond compare and that's not the truly big bad gribbly?

Then I begin to hit the 'ole disbelieve. When it happens all the time...?

After all, the biggest punching bag in the 40k universe is consistency, a "goblin" that was pretty much sucker-punched by Wilde and whom has subsequently been for ever relegated to the rock of "oopsie" along with Prometheus.

Et tu, plot... :shifty:

Kage

KingDeath
19-12-2010, 01:14
Well, on the bright side, the Eldar still have the awesome Avatar from Shadowpoint. After all, who cares about whimps who lose to some smurf on steroids when you can have the fiery incarnation of death, as depicted in that novel? :)

Drasanil
19-12-2010, 01:18
I honestly can't wait till the next eldar codex, GW has pretty much shot the Avatar's crediblity to bits, stomped on the remains and vaporised was what left. I wonder if they're even going to bother trying to redeem it or simply roll with it and have a few more killed.

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 02:07
I honestly can't wait till the next eldar codex, GW has pretty much shot the Avatar's crediblity to bits, stomped on the remains and vaporised was what left. I wonder if they're even going to bother trying to redeem it or simply roll with it and have a few more killed.

They will show how badass and awesome the Avatar is by having it kill another Avatar.;)

Drasanil
19-12-2010, 02:08
They will show how badass and awesome the Avatar is by having it kill another Avatar.;)

I wouldn't be surprised if went on to blow up a craftworld while it was at it:yes:

Mannimarco
19-12-2010, 02:14
They've already set the wheels in motion.

Remember the possessed avatar in the Daemons codex? The new Eldar codex will have the Avatar kill him

bruceadsero
19-12-2010, 04:31
Well If somone is looking for the Avatar to triumph in DoW 2 Retribution if they actually let you play as Eldar and it is anything like the previous DoW multi race campaigns the Avatar and the rest of the Eldar should have killed: 1. The Blood Ravens in Sub Sector Aurellia, 2: The Great Unclean One Ulkair (Yes he is beaten in Chaos Rising but not fully bannished iirc. 3: The Inquistor and his retinue (if the races are like I assume) and finally the Swarmlord (who whooped on Calger). If the Eldar and Avatar wrack up that list then i think it is pretty respectable for the Avatar.

w00tm0ng3r
19-12-2010, 11:14
What source is this from?

Argh on second glance I can't find anything to back this up other than Lexi so we should probably strike this one off the list. It's still 20 deaths split 16 direct and 4 indirect within 3 years though.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-12-2010, 14:39
Nope, Calgar, most of the time won't get involved in a battle he can't win. He'll move, strike at your weak points and gut you. With the superior mobility and orbital support of the Astartes that should be easy. I was simply pointing out that Calgar was not a bad commander, as was previously implied.



Of course. Where did I deny that at all? I was talking about Guard here. Two different branches.



Actually I would. Calgar to put it bluntly has more experiance and better demonstrated feats. Macharius is debatable though. Creed is close though. Yarrick is not quite up to match though.



Then you should have made it clearer instead of trying to pull out some one-upsmanship.



Then you should have made it clearer.



Then belittling and claiming you can kill them is certainly not a good idea. That's what I call a threat.

IIRC, Ultrasmurfs got a bit of a curb stomping from Alpha Legion around the time of the HH, didn't they?

And who led that Ultrasmurf force??? oh yeah, it was your own Primarch, you remember the guy that WROTE the Codex Astartes..... Calgar's boss.

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 14:43
IIRC, Ultrasmurfs got a bit of a curb stomping from Alpha Legion shortly after the HH, didn't they?

Actually no. Most of the information about the Battle of Eskador came from Kravin, who was heavily implied to be an Alpha Legion agent. Even the other Inquisitors and Ultramarines cast doubt on it. Frankly, I take it with a huge pinch of salt.

Could it be true? Maybe. Could it be false? That's equally as likely.



And who led that Ultrasmurf force??? oh yeah, it was your own Primarch, you remember the guy that WROTE the Codex Astartes..... Calgar's boss.

Of course, the Alpha Legion are an entirely different opponet to the Guard.

If the battle ever took place.

And ''my'' Primarch? You seem to be confused here. I am looking at this from a nuetral standpoint. I don't claim anything as my own.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-12-2010, 14:50
Actually no. Most of the information about the Battle of Eskador came from Kravin, who was heavily implied to be an Alpha Legion agent. Even the other Inquisitors and Ultramarines cast doubt on it. Frankly, I take it with a huge pinch of salt.

Could it be true? Maybe. Could it be false? That's equally as likely.



Of course, the Alpha Legion are an entirely different opponet to the Guard.

If the battle ever took place.

And ''my'' Primarch? You seem to be confused here. I am looking at this from a nuetral standpoint. I don't claim anything as my own.

LOL true, We don't fight fair.

But even IA states that it's hard to dispute the Ultras were soundly beaten by AL.

And the "your primarch" thing was based on your avatar. (It has a bit of Ultra-taint about it.) ;)

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 14:51
LOL true, We don't fight fair.

But even IA states that it's hard to dispute the Ultras were soundly beaten by AL.

It then goes on to reveal that the Inquisitor who revealed the information in the first place to be an Alpha Legion agent. This casting everything about that battle into doubt.

In the account's events as told it's hard to dispute, yes, but the account itself is questionable.



And the "your primarch" thing was based on your avatar. (It has a bit of Ultra-taint about it.) ;)

That's a Pre-Heresy World Eater banner. They wore blue and white Pre-Heresy, note the planet in the jaws of the helmet.

Castigator
19-12-2010, 14:53
LOL true, We don't fight fair.

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Seriously?

AlphariusOmegon20
19-12-2010, 14:55
It then goes on to reveal that the Inquisitor who revealed the information in the first place to be an Alpha Legion agent. This casting everything about that battle into doubt.

In the account's events as told it's hard to dispute, yes, but the account itself is questionable.

But the account of the Ultramarine himself leads back to the realm of possibility of Ultras getting teeth kicked.

And I'll admit, I missed the world in the jaws. I've never seen that banner before.


:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Seriously?

LOL AL is my main 40K army.

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 14:57
But the account of the Ultramarine himself leads back to the realm of possibility of Ultras getting teeth kicked.


Except it's not sure that the ''Ultramarine'' is indeed an Ultramarine, or even valid at all.

Index Astartes Alpha Legion.


The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.


Shortly after the conclave, Inquisitor Girreux publicly accused Kravin of consorting with traitors and conspiring to organize cultist uprisings on the worlds of Kartha IV, V and Archos II in the Korren sub-sector. Girreux challenged Kravin to appear for trial and face the evidence against him, however Kravin's current whereabouts is unknown. Of course this development has called into question the reliability of all Inquisitor Kravin's research, and as he was the leading scholar on the Alpha Legion's history and current activities, much of what was known about them must now be considered a lie. If, as Girreux claims, Kravin has been compromised by the very traitors he sought to investigate, then everything he said must be considered misinformation and propaganda invented by the Alpha Legion.

Drasanil
19-12-2010, 16:51
Of course it's entirely possible that it's a political smear job by the Ultramarines and their inquisitorial allies and that Kravin was telling the truth. Having your Paragons of Marinehood humiliated in such a manner is probably something best forgotten.

Lord_Crull
19-12-2010, 19:27
Of course it's entirely possible that it's a political smear job by the Ultramarines and their inquisitorial allies and that Kravin was telling the truth. Having your Paragons of Marinehood humiliated in such a manner is probably something best forgotten.

That's why I said it may be true. We don't know for sure however. That's why I take it with a big pinch of salt.

El_Machinae
20-12-2010, 16:46
Time and time again, we're told how costly and valuable the Imperator Titans are. The Imperium loses something valuable when these are lost. Is losing an Avatar 'costly'? Or are they something that can be regenerated, etc?

Retribution
20-12-2010, 17:44
I would lose all dignity if my fiery war god got beat up by everything and their mothers...and probably the pet pomeranian for good measure

Elvani
20-12-2010, 18:15
Was having a browse through the Eldar codex, and the only thing an Avatar kills in that is apparently one Space Marine, which you can see under its feet on the unit entry page for the Avatar, completely incinerated. Oh yeah, and the Young King, but he doesn't even fight back, and I'm sure GW would have us believe that the Avatar found that quite a struggle. Why can't it be like the DoW Avatar, Slicing open dreads and stuff?

Next Eldar codex: Avatar of Khaine loses arm wrestle with armless dark eldar torture victim.

Asavar88
05-01-2011, 21:19
Thing is though, he mauls in-game. One would be in for a rude awakening if they were to try and fight him thinking he was 40k's greatest punching bag! :p

Masonicon
25-12-2011, 00:28
Imperial Guardsmen(particularly Cadian ones), this is what makes me goes into 40k

Shamana
25-12-2011, 09:32
Time and time again, we're told how costly and valuable the Imperator Titans are. The Imperium loses something valuable when these are lost.

Doesn't the Imperium still build titans, however slowly? That would make them replacable. Sure, it's costly and takes a lot of work, but the Imperium has resources.

I'm not sure how "punched" Imperators are, frankly, the only time I remember one downed is in Titanicus, where it required the coordinated efforts (via mind-linking of the princepsi) of over a dozen smaller titans iirc, and it still took a few down. Are there any cases where it was clearly outmatched or downed easily, as opposed to ground down by wolfpack tactics or via a huge force?

Dogface
25-12-2011, 09:53
I think the biggest punching bag is my brain due to how much people on this board whine about the Avatar like Games Workshop has dealt them some personal slight or has formed some sort of Anti-Avatar conspiracy.

Kozbot
25-12-2011, 19:34
I think the biggest punching bag is my brain due to how much people on this board whine about the Avatar like Games Workshop has dealt them some personal slight or has formed some sort of Anti-Avatar conspiracy.

I can't help but agree with you. An avatar takes a wall of fire from devastators, wipes out a bunch of terminators, then gets taken down by Calgar and that's an embarrassment. If hundreds of russes fire at an avatar and manages to bring it down, that's just ridiculous. I seriously think that Eldar fanboys would only be happy if the Avatar wiped out a few million guardsmen and at minimum two chapters every time they showed up. And even then they would complain if a third chapter took the Avatar down.

And they ignore that an Avatar dying is meaningless, unless the craftworld is destroyed it can come come back immediately.

Shamana
25-12-2011, 21:22
I can't help but agree with you. An avatar takes a wall of fire from devastators, wipes out a bunch of terminators, then gets taken down by Calgar and that's an embarrassment.

I never considered that scene to be all that atrocious (even compared to other parts of the same "piece"), but I think you might have missed a small thing there - the Avatar, just like Calgar, wasn't alone. So if we are to talk about how the avatar was actually fighting devastators, terminators, AND Calgar, we should also be talking about how the Ultramarines were taking on the majority of the entire warhost - so no, I don't think the above description quite cuts it. If the terminators in the avatar's path played a role, you'd think all those eldar Calgar plowed through should have counted for something, too. Ah well. The whole incident felt like the eldar wishing they were as good as Ultramarines in mobility, tactics, and great warriors, but who doesn't ;) ?

The "avatar jobbing spree" became a bigger problem in context, because in a few following codices - Nids and BA - we had more avatars defeated in fairly unimpressive manner. It got to be a bit too common an enemy to pit against the protagonist of the week, and lose in the sentence following its introduction. I don't mind avatar losing against a great champion now and then (especially if it's some great, climactic battle), but they should win a few fights too, otherwise they just look weak. The problem is, they never do - I know of literally one case of an avatar defeating a major enemy (the hive tyrant invading Iyanden), and it was retconned to the avatar being splattered and Yriel doing it.

Hellebore
25-12-2011, 23:00
I think the biggest punching bag is my brain due to how much people on this board whine about the Avatar like Games Workshop has dealt them some personal slight or has formed some sort of Anti-Avatar conspiracy.

When almost 10 avatars are written into the fluff specifically to kill them and for no other reason and all that happened in the last ~6 years of released product, one can't help but see it as deliberate. The chances of it being accidental are really slim.

Almost every codex since the release of 5th ed has a dead avatar in it, plus the daemon codex released just before 5th ed.

Hellebore

MajorWesJanson
26-12-2011, 19:59
Doesn't the Imperium still build titans, however slowly? That would make them replacable. Sure, it's costly and takes a lot of work, but the Imperium has resources.

I'm not sure how "punched" Imperators are, frankly, the only time I remember one downed is in Titanicus, where it required the coordinated efforts (via mind-linking of the princepsi) of over a dozen smaller titans iirc, and it still took a few down. Are there any cases where it was clearly outmatched or downed easily, as opposed to ground down by wolfpack tactics or via a huge force?

Dark Apostle, one is brought down by a group of terminators boarding and mining it's knee.
Helsreach, one loses in a duel to a Mega Gargant.
Mechanicum, one dies to a lava flow.
Storm of Iron, one is killed by first a warlord titan exploding right next to it, then later a second warlord tags its reactor with a CCW attack.

Titanicus actually has one of the more durable examples.

Shamana
26-12-2011, 22:16
Dark Apostle, one is brought down by a group of terminators boarding and mining it's knee.
Helsreach, one loses in a duel to a Mega Gargant.
Mechanicum, one dies to a lava flow.
Storm of Iron, one is killed by first a warlord titan exploding right next to it, then later a second warlord tags its reactor with a CCW attack.

Huh, I guess those things do get jobbed quite a few times too.

Nazguire
27-12-2011, 04:14
When almost 10 avatars are written into the fluff specifically to kill them and for no other reason and all that happened in the last ~6 years of released product, one can't help but see it as deliberate. The chances of it being accidental are really slim.

Almost every codex since the release of 5th ed has a dead avatar in it, plus the daemon codex released just before 5th ed.

Hellebore

Even if 'Avatar killing' was actually a real conspiracy, at the end of the day, does it truly matter?:cool:

Dogface
27-12-2011, 04:52
When almost 10 avatars are written into the fluff specifically to kill them and for no other reason and all that happened in the last ~6 years of released product, one can't help but see it as deliberate. The chances of it being accidental are really slim.

Almost every codex since the release of 5th ed has a dead avatar in it, plus the daemon codex released just before 5th ed.

Hellebore

Congratulations, you have cracked the code. The spidery conspirators at Nottingham have been exposed! Indeed the Avatar has been made a punching bag and it is specifically to spite a specific sub-sect of the gamer population.

As a reward for your intrepid sleuthing we have gifted you with a dozen Finecast Avatars.

Or, alternatively, there is a really trivial reason (or no reason at all) for the Avatar's ill fated encounters written into fluff and everyone is having their time and brain matter wasted by increasingly trite fan complaints.

Lexington
27-12-2011, 05:09
The biggest punching bag in 40K? Mat Ward. Just as it should be. :D


[...] everyone is having their time and brain matter wasted by increasingly trite [Studio writing].
Seems more apt, don' it?

Theocracity
27-12-2011, 05:22
Congratulations, you have cracked the code. The spidery conspirators at Nottingham have been exposed! Indeed the Avatar has been made a punching bag and it is specifically to spite a specific sub-sect of the gamer population.

As a reward for your intrepid sleuthing we have gifted you with a dozen Finecast Avatars.

Or, alternatively, there is a really trivial reason (or no reason at all) for the Avatar's ill fated encounters written into fluff and everyone is having their time and brain matter wasted by increasingly trite fan complaints.

Draigo's Razor strikes again :D

bruceadsero
27-12-2011, 05:32
Personally I don't see what the issue is with Fulgrim killing an Avatar he later pwns Ferrus Manus and Papa Smurf.

Okuto
27-12-2011, 15:54
IMO....consistency is the biggest punching bag in the 40k fluff......

It's the biggest flaw of the fluff writers...things are constantly rectonned...timelines aren't paid attention too, military logic is throw out the window for heroics....etc etc...etc

Shamana
27-12-2011, 16:17
Personally I don't see what the issue is with Fulgrim killing an Avatar he later pwns Ferrus Manus and Papa Smurf.

On its own, Fulgrim beating an avatar is pretty acceptable. Any Primarch is at least a match for an avatar, and Fulgrim is meant to be one of the better warriors of the lot. It's just that a) the battle goes in a pretty weird manner (throw away your sword and choke a 20-feet animated statue of near-molten metal with your bare hands, wtf?) and b) it's just one instance in the long avatar losing streak.

The Red Pilgrim
27-12-2011, 19:55
On its own, Fulgrim beating an avatar is pretty acceptable. Any Primarch is at least a match for an avatar, and Fulgrim is meant to be one of the better warriors of the lot. It's just that a) the battle goes in a pretty weird manner (throw away your sword and choke a 20-feet animated statue of near-molten metal with your bare hands, wtf?) and b) it's just one instance in the long avatar losing streak.

See, here's the problem.

People don't take the time to actually even read a story that they decry as bad writing. He doesn't choke an Avatar to death. :rolleyes:

I'd suggest reading the story.

Poseidal
28-12-2011, 10:27
On its own, Fulgrim beating an avatar is pretty acceptable. Any Primarch is at least a match for an avatar, and Fulgrim is meant to be one of the better warriors of the lot. It's just that a) the battle goes in a pretty weird manner (throw away your sword and choke a 20-feet animated statue of near-molten metal with your bare hands, wtf?) and b) it's just one instance in the long avatar losing streak.


See, here's the problem.

People don't take the time to actually even read a story that they decry as bad writing. He doesn't choke an Avatar to death. :rolleyes:

I'd suggest reading the story.

The main problem is this: Greater Daemons used to be big and threatening. It was a BIG THING that Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster, and that was a hard victory and an out of the ordinary circumstance.

Now everyone and their mother kills them willy-nilly so you have to wonder what's next in terms of power inflation.

Sarevok
28-12-2011, 13:52
I dont think an Avatar has died since codex: Blood Angels, so GW are probably aware of it


The main problem is this: Greater Daemons used to be big and threatening. It was a BIG THING that Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster, and that was a hard victory and an out of the ordinary circumstance.


you invent SUPER Greater Daemons to beat

a regular Bloodthirster used to be equal to a Primarch in power

it used to be just a regular Bloodthirster that Sanguinus fought, but that doesnt mean anything anymore, so now its Khabanda Lord of Bloodthirsters he beat
(though Khabanda seems to lose everytime he appears so...)

Isariel
28-12-2011, 14:03
The main problem is this: Greater Daemons used to be big and threatening. It was a BIG THING that Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster, and that was a hard victory and an out of the ordinary circumstance.

Now everyone and their mother kills them willy-nilly so you have to wonder what's next in terms of power inflation.

Daemon primarchs and Chaos gods, perhaps?

In all seriousness though, the scenario we find ourselves in seems to have a couple of core problems that people take issue with: first, that the 'punching bags' of the fluff tend to be concentrated to a handful of factions and units within those factions (e.g. Avatars, Bloodthirsters, etc); and second, that the units tend to be portrayed in a manner inconsistent with their own background material.

The solution to these problems seem to be rather straight forward - respect the background of every faction in a fluff piece (not just the protagonists') and try to spread the death and defeat around (after all, the background is set up in such a way as to allow any faction to fight just about any other faction - even themselves).

Okuto
28-12-2011, 18:17
Indeed....I'd like to see more smurfs getting killed.....and not just for fan service...ala swarmlord...