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ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 14:46
Hi, I have just recently started playing warhammer so myself and my friend have very limited armies (just wanted to get that bit out of the way).

I recently got absolutly smashed during a game when the victory points went 1650 to HE and 350 to WoC.

I'll try and describe both armies and give a run down of the match and hopefully you might be able to offer some advice on what I can do.

Warriors Of Chaos

2 x 12 Warriors
1 x 20 Mauraders
1 x 5 Knights
1 x 10 Warhounds
1 x Archeon (used as standard chaos lord as not enough points to field him)
1 x Sorcerer of Tzeentch on Disk

All units that could have full command did and all units had mark of nurgle except mage which had mark of Tzeentch. Chaos warriors were equipped with shield and great weapon, Mauraders had shield and light armor and knights had no upgrades.

Magic Items

Armor of Morrsleibb on both mage and lord
Collar of Khorne on both mage and lord
Glave of putrifaction on Lord
the thing that allows me to modify his miscasts on the Mage

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 14:46
High Elves

1 x Standard Prince with magic weapon, barded mount and dragon armor. Also equipped with one ring that destroys any magic item on roll of 4+ and another that does a flaming fireball attack that does d6 hits at s3.
1 x Mage
1 x 20 Swordmasters, full command, magic attacks.
1 x 10 Reavers, full command, bows.
1 x 16 Archers, full command.
1 x 16 Spearmen, full command.
1 x 20 Seaguard, full command.
1 x Bolt Thrower

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 14:47
Right i'm not quite sure if this is gonna work but i'll try and draw the map.

We were playing the mission called mountain pass.

Ok drawing the map didn't work so i'm gonna have to try and describe the set up to you.

Right so we play along the long table edge with me setting up first.

As close as i can get to my starting point, I put my lord with Knights at the top of the table, then 1 group of warriors below them, then the mauraders in the middle, then the second group of warriors and finally the warhounds. I then put the Mage just behind the mauraders.

He started with his mage at the top of the table close to the front lines but slightly behind a group of swordmasters, then he had his spearmen below them, then his reavers and Prince, then he put his archers in the middle of the table behind the rest of his army, them his seaguard near the bottom of his front lines. He then placed his bolt thrower behind everything in the middle of his deployment zone.

We then role of to decide our magic. I have a level 4 sorcerer lord with mork of Tzeentch and role 2, 2, 2 and 3 (terrible) So I get my signature spell, the thing that make him take a leadership test or lose models by how much he failed his leadership and pandemonium. the other 2 I have to discard as I can't use it.

His mage is only level 2 but he has a magic item that lets him know one more spell. He chooses Lore of Metal and gets his signature spell, something which gives his units + 1 to WS and BS and the one that gives his units scaly skin.

Turn One

Movement

I March all units maximum distance except for mage who sits behind mauraders.

Magic

Mage casts Pandemonium and the leadership test thingy on his group of spearmen. 2 Spearmen die.

End of turn

Movement

He doesn't move any unit except that he brings his mage slightly behind his swordmasters.

Magic

He cast his signature spell on my chaos Knights but fails the 20 casting role he needed.
Uses ring to destroy Collar of Khorne on Chaos Lord and second ring to attack mauraders killing 4

Shooting

Archers and Seaguard shoot mauraders with a minus 2 to hit he still takes out 6.
Bolt Thrower shoots mage and misses.
Reavers shoot top group of warriors, no kills.

No combat phase

Turn Two

Movement

I call a charge with my knights to his Swordmasters, total distance 12 inches, needed 5 from 3 dice removing the lowest, rolled 2, 2 and 1. Charge Failed.
Marched all other units max distance and moves mage in behind mauraders again.

Magic

My sorcerer is now close enough to cast his signature fireball but he uses another magic item to rip that spell from my mind and automatically dispelling it.
All i could now do with pandemonium in play was cast the leadership thingy 8 times. no damage done as all leadership roles were passed or magic was not cast.

No Shooting or combat phase.

Movement

None

Magic

Casts his signature spell again on my knights, killing 3 outright now I had no ward save against magic.
Casts Princes ring again on mauraders but only killing 2 this time.

Shooting

All out offensive against mage, after the Bolt thrower took out 2 wounds the seaguard, reavers and archers all fired and managed to take the final wound.

No Combat

Turn Three

Movement

Knights now successfully charge into swordmasters. Knights have same inititive value as swordmasters so his 20 Swordmasters did 7 wound to my none. Chaos lord attacked last due to having a great weapon and was killed before he had a chance to attack back.

I'm going to end it here cause it's fairly obvious what happens next.

Oh yea, my sorcerer didn't have collar of khorne but something that gave him a magic resist (2) and 4+ ward save against spells.

Eta
07-10-2010, 14:58
First of all, you may only take every magic item once, so either your lord or your sorcerer were illegal.
Second, you were way over in points with your lord choices. The troops you have listed come to about 1000 points, your lords cost at least 680 points. I assume you played 1750 points, so you would have a max. allowance of 437 points for lord choices. Looking at those big rules gaps I have to ask - do you have the 8th edition rulebook?

Greetings
Eta

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 15:09
Yea i had about 1870 points versus his 1890
Yes I do have 8th Edition
Yes I think I spent to much in lords, but didn't have any other models ready to fight with.
I thought you could could have more than one magic item but not more than one gift of chaos?

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 15:44
bump, bump, bump

Eta
07-10-2010, 15:51
No, in general magic items are one per army.

Greetings
Eta

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 16:00
Ok thanks.

I actually fought this match several days ago so the details are a little sketchy.

My main concern is his Swordmasters.

With them having magical attacks as a 15 point upgrade (which is seriuosly imbalanced), I just don't know what I can use to take them down. The only thing I can think of is having my warriors with just a hand weapon and shield, cause then at least they attack at the same time and I can do some wounds to him and it will give me a 6+ parry ward save.

The other thing is his Signature spell with Metal magic, as he always uses it against my Knights that have a 1+ armor save so he does 2d6 hits that wound on a roll of 2+ so on average 7 Knights will die.

Badnames
07-10-2010, 16:34
You get magic resistance against the metal spell, and it pumps any wardsave you already have. So if you can get a hero with magic resist 3 in your knights and make them tzeentch, you'll have a 3+ ward save to any magic. That will help them live.

Badnames
07-10-2010, 16:39
Against elves, you dont need halberds, you have to aim for more attacks while keeping yourself protected, since they are toughness 3. I dont understand why magical attacks is an issue? Same thing on swordmasters, its been a while since I've faced high elves, but your better off giving a chaos lord a weapon that has killing blow, +1 str or -saves, since again they have low toughness.

ChrisPye999
07-10-2010, 16:58
Yea the thing is, I tried to go for A/hw and MoK on all my troops to give them 4 attacks each, and while i absolutly ripped his army to shreds, it wasn't much fun. At the end of the day I want to have a fun, challenging battle everytime I play. Also I tried to get my hero to have a magic resistance, but he used Vows of unmaking on me and removed my collar of khorne, which left me completly defenceless against his magic spells and attacks.

Is the Mark of Tzeentch useful to put on normal troops? It seems to me that it's good for mages since they get +1 to the cast roles along with the ward save.

Also, if I go for hand weapon and shield and get my 6+ parry save, can that be increased to 5+ if I go for Mark of Tzeentch?

Badnames
07-10-2010, 18:07
Mark of tzeentch is extremely useful if your unit has a ward save already. Also go for the demonic gift you have to keep your knights regiment protected from spells, he wont be able to destroy it, then make the knights tzeentch. If you take the blasted standard, they'll have 1+ armor 4+ ward on magic and 4+ ward on shooting. That hopefully will give you time to get into close combat.

TheKingInYellow
07-10-2010, 19:23
You are playing a ton of rules wrong. Just off the top of my head:

- You rolled 2, 2, 2, 3 for spells. That means you get spell #2, spell #3, and two more that you can choose. No spells are wasted and you do not need to choose the signature spell.
- Your army composition is way off. How many points in Lords did you field?
- The HE Prince has two of the same type of item (Ring of Fury, Ring of Corin are both Arcane). That's not allowed. Also the HE Prince can't take Arcane Items period! Only mages can!
- Duplicate items as has already been noted.
- You can only cast each spell once per turn. You can't cast the 'LD thing' 8 times on eight dice. Also, don't forget that a natural roll of 2 or less means the caster can no longer cast that round.

Tactics/List issues:
- GW and shield on warriors is about the least efficient combination there is, especially against Elves. AHW or HW/S or Halberd/S all outperform for the price.
- Multiple small units are not the way to go in 8th. 2x12 warriors is far too small. I run mine at least 18 to a unit and normally 21 in a 7x3 formation.
- Warhounds are okay but their role is distract and absorb fire. This is one scenario where small units work. Go 2 units 5 instead of 1 unit of ten.
- 20 Marauders is too small as well. They die easily, you need numbers to get them into combat.
- Knights hitting Swordmasters? That is the *one* unit he fields that you need to keep your Knights away from. Would you rather hit the Swordmasters and die, or use them to wipe out the spears, seaguard *and* archers?

The list he brought was pretty weak. Archers, Reavers and Seaguard are all pretty sub-optimal for the points. WoC should steamroll that list.

Francis
07-10-2010, 19:50
- The HE Prince has two of the same type of item (Ring of Fury, Ring of Corin are both Arcane). That's not allowed. Also the HE Prince can't take Arcane Items period! Only mages can!

The Ring of Fury is an enchanted item so a Prince may take it, the Ring of Corin however is arcane so the build is still illegal.

Eta
08-10-2010, 11:07
The only thing I can think of is having my warriors with just a hand weapon and shield, cause then at least they attack at the same time and I can do some wounds to him and it will give me a 6+ parry ward save.

Swordmasters will always attack before your warriors because they have the ASF rule that is not cancelled by their greatweapons. A big deep block (40ish) of Tzeentch marauders with shields can hold up a unit of Swordmasters pretty well if they are kept within BSB range. A unit of 18 Tzeentch Chaos Warriors with shields will also be a tough nut to crack for the elves.

Greetings
Eta

PeG
08-10-2010, 16:05
If this is a regular opponent of your you should discuss with him and make a decision about how you want to play. If one side optimizes while the other doesnt it is usually not a good setup.

If he insists on taking lore of metal I would recomend taking out his casters as fast as possible. A lore of death caster should be able to do that. An alternative would be to go all out in marauders and a few marauder horsemen.

As others have said Khorne warriors with additional handweapons are good against most things.

I would also drop the lord and use the points for something else. This would help not only in making your army legal but also to free up points to get larger units. An alternative would be a second caster, one with death and the other with tzeentch or possibly shadow.

It is a hard matchup but shouldnt be impossible.

The_Cheat137
08-10-2010, 17:17
I don't see what the big deal is with Magic Attacks on his Swordmasters. Chaos Knights will still get a 3+ Armour save vs that. Magic Attacks are not like Power Weapons in 40K; they do not ignore armor. In fact they do nothing special at all unless the target unit has some explicit vulnerability to Magic Attacks.

Also, it sounds like your opponent is pulling magic items out of his...um...hat...left and right. Be sure you're all sticking to the rules on Magic Items:

1) Only one of each type per character (no single character can have more than one Arcane Item, or Enchanted Item, etc.)
2) Only Wizards can take Arcane Items
3) Heroes can only have 50 points of Magic Items