PDA

View Full Version : Scratch building frowned upon?



kaubin
08-10-2010, 06:49
Hello,

I just had a very unpleasant experience tonight that I feel I have to write about. I've been playing at an independant store that sells a lot of GW products for quite some time now, and having very little money to play, reverted to a lot of cases of proxying, empty bases, counts as, and other such ways of getting by playing the game, without having an actual army.

Now this bothered me, but it never seemed to bother anyone else. The fantasy players around here are few in number and they all like a good game. Recently though, I decided to take it a step further, and to scratchbuild the missing elements of my army, to get everything proper for the sake of my opponents. It was a lot of fun, and I put a lot of time and effort into it. By the end, I got a great result, and got to play a few games, in that store, in which I got a lot of compliments from the people there.

Tonight though, as I was playing, the owner came up and said he did't want me to bring those models anymore. He said they didn't sell those models (obviously because I made them myself), and so they shouldn't be in the store. It's odd because they do sell plasticard and green stuff, which is what all of my scratch built models were made from.

Now this is his right. His store, his tables, his rules, follow them or get out, but I just can't believe that an empty base, just because it is a legitimate GW product, is more readily accepted than a scratch built model that is as nice, if not nicer than the actual product. Obviously, i'm not going to spend $200+ on models I don't need, and would rather spend that money creatively building a table for my friends and I to play on, but I just felt that this kind of reasoning was downright stupid, and made no sense.

It's going to be a while before I go back to that store, and I definately will not be purchasing any more models/paint/materials from it, as I was before, but does this seem strange to anyone else? I thought games workshops encouraged people to build their own models. Thoughts? Comments? Similar experiences?

kurisawa
08-10-2010, 07:01
Ahh, yes, cash is always a problem, and this hobby does require an investment.

I suspect there is a middle way where you can both be happy.

Scratch-building can be great to add individuality to an army, with one or two special models created by the player as "something different". With recent changes to WHFB 8th, I'm thinking of scratch-building a unit of treekin. I've already scratchbuilt 2 rocklobbas for my O&G using chopsticks and plastic spoons for the throwing arms!

On the other hand, an entire army scratchbuilt... and without seeing the models that you have made I cannot judge you... might be just a bit too abstract and unsettling for opponents (even if they don't say it directly to your face).

I'll agree that random proxies and spare bases are also no good for anyone's enjoyment.

But maybe the third way I hinted at is to at least get the basic models. For your scratchbuilds, try incorporating some GW-made parts. For my treekin, I'll use bits of dryads - heads/arms, and the rest of my army will be proper models. For the rocklobbas, I used normal plastic gobbs as crew, and the lobbas have lots of gobbo shields and spears modelled onto the machines.


This way will make your owner/manager happy, and hopefully not break your wallet.

Can you explain which army you play and which models you built, as well as how you built them? Rather than blowing off the store, maybe you can get some good modelling advice here which will help you to instead enjoy the hobby fully...

K.

kaubin
08-10-2010, 07:09
Well nothing that I used was the least bit abstract. I play orcs and goblins, and the models I scratch built were the war machines. I had an old bolt thrower from many years ago, but I thought it looked bad, and had no will to repair it. So I basically went ahead and built a bolt thrower using a very good guide I found on herdstone. It was fun so I built a few more.

The ones I made looked very similiar to that finished product. Then I went ahead and made a catapult out of plasticards. The rest of the army, troops, monsters and characters, were all real and genuine. There was no confusion in what the war machines were. The best part about it is that every single model looked a little different, so I didn't just have a copy of the same model several times on the board.

Wakerofgods
08-10-2010, 07:18
Now this is his right. His store, his tables, his rules, follow them or get out, but I just can't believe that an empty base, just because it is a legitimate GW product, is more readily accepted than a scratch built model that is as nice, if not nicer than the actual product. Obviously, i'm not going to spend $200+ on models I don't need,

Firstly, you do 'need' them if you want to play there.

Secondly, I do think that this is his right. Depending on the circumstance and degree. He probally saw you playing with empty bases for some time and was ok with it because he assumed eventually those empty bases would be filled with models he would get some profit from. Then after some time of watching this happens he sees you fill them with home made models and not only that people complement you! What if these people who were complementing you then thought of doing this themselves? You are in his store advertising the lack of need to buy models?

I think this all depends on degrees. Did you stratch build one or two models with plans to buy more 'real' ones? Or did you stratch build lots and start mentioning offhand that you'll never have to buy a model again?

It sucks you can't play there, but I got the impression that your attitude wasn't very supportive of the local store. If you had never been very supportive of the local store, not brought many models and then one day show up with homemade models I think he was justified in 'banning' you.

The local store is a store for it's customers to enjoy games at. Why should he let you play there if you dont supply him with money? Why are you suprised about this? If you dont give him money every now and again why should he let you play there?
The answer because you playing there helps other people have games and so your playing there encourages other peoples custom (so, indirectly, you help give him custom). However if you have consistantly not been playing with models and even moving further away from playing with paid for models then your influence on the store could have been to discourage sales instead of encourage.

So basically, you give him no money and possibly discourage others from doing so - so he kicks you out of the store like any small business owner should do. Supply him directly or indirectly with revenue or play somewhere else.

***If anything I'm basing my opinion off here isn't true then I am sorry - I don't know all the facts by a longshot. What I've written is only one opinion on it based on incomplete information***

Edit:

To add, I see you wrote that this was just a few orc and goblin warmachines. Definatley not the kind of case I was thinking of when I wrote the above!
He probally didn't have a good reason to kick you out then. Though it's possible someone else complained about you (perhaps there had been a few and you didn't know).

kaubin
08-10-2010, 07:29
Firstly, you do 'need' them if you want to play there.

Secondly, I do think that this is his right. Depending on the circumstance and degree. He probally saw you playing with empty bases for some time and was ok with it because he assumed eventually those empty bases would be filled with models he would get some profit from. Then after some time of watching this happens he sees you fill them with home made models and not only that people complement you! What if these people who were complementing you then thought of doing this themselves? You are in his store advertising the lack of need to buy models?

I think this all depends on degrees. Did you stratch build one or two models with plans to buy more 'real' ones? Or did you stratch build lots and start mentioning offhand that you'll never have to buy a model again?

It sucks you can't play there, but I got the impression that your attitude wasn't very supportive of the local store. If you had never been very supportive of the local store, not brought many models and then one day show up with homemade models I think he was justified in 'banning' you.

The local store is a store for it's customers to enjoy games at. Why should he let you play there if you dont supply him with money? Why are you suprised about this? If you dont give him money every now and again why should he let you play there?
The answer because you playing there helps other people have games and so your playing there encourages other peoples custom (so, indirectly, you help give him custom). However if you have consistantly not been playing with models and even moving further away from playing with paid for models then your influence on the store could have been to discourage sales instead of encourage.

So basically, you give him no money and possibly discourage others from doing so - so he kicks you out of the store like any small business owner should do. Supply him directly or indirectly with revenue or play somewhere else.

***If anything I'm basing my opinion off here isn't true then I am sorry - I don't know all the facts by a longshot. What I've written is only one opinion on it based on incomplete information***

I said I didn't need the store because I know most of the players. I can play at home if I want. Of course I need other players, I never assumed that I didn't.

I never said that I had been banned either, simply that I was not aloud to bring home made models anymore. I didn't bad mouth, show attitude, or anything like that, I simply said that I don't feel like playing in a store where I can't play with.

I also explained in the part that you quoted that it was his choice and that I was going to respect it if I played there.

I didn't mention it, but I did support the store as best as my budget would let me. I bought all my army books, paints, as well as any models that I didn't buy second hand there, even when wayland games is considerably cheaper after shipping. I wasn't a top buyer by a long shot, but I was buying my new material and supplies from that store.

ChrisIronBrow
08-10-2010, 07:32
yeah, I dealt with a shop owner like that once. Thought we should all be grateful for the privledge of giving him our money and having a place to play under his (very restrictive) rules. I got in touch with the people from the shop I enjoyed games with, and we built some tables and rotated houses to play at.

If your spending money at his store it's his loss really. try to get some phone numbers of the other players and see what you can do.

phoenixguard09
08-10-2010, 07:35
Wow that sucks man. I made my own warmachine altogether for my brother's O&G's. Only GW parts were a toothpick, a goblin and a rocket from teh Helstorm. :D That's never been comented on. Doesn't even look like a Doom Diver which is what my brother uses it as.

Tough break. Don't suppose you would feel up to asking why he "banned" you?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-10-2010, 07:36
What a *********. Yeah, it's his store and all, but just as he can deny you the ability to play there, you can share the message with your fellow gamers and get a little boycott going until he becomes reasonable. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

EDIT: Wow, the blurred that word out. Let's try again: "What a container of feminine hygiene product."

theorox
08-10-2010, 07:41
Well nothing that I used was the least bit abstract. I play orcs and goblins, and the models I scratch built were the war machines. I had an old bolt thrower from many years ago, but I thought it looked bad, and had no will to repair it. So I basically went ahead and built a bolt thrower using a very good guide I found on herdstone. It was fun so I built a few more.

The ones I made looked very similiar to that finished product. Then I went ahead and made a catapult out of plasticards. The rest of the army, troops, monsters and characters, were all real and genuine. There was no confusion in what the war machines were. The best part about it is that every single model looked a little different, so I didn't just have a copy of the same model several times on the board.

Then that store owner is a *********. (This was not a bad word, not even as bad as idiot.) :) But always try to have 50% GW product in all scratchbuilds if you want to play them in a GW store. Those are the rules...usually. But this was an independant store? Then we're back to *********. :p

Theo

Zorenthewise
08-10-2010, 07:43
This is a strange thing to do. From a money making perspective, you are raising interest in the game, regardless of model usage, so you aren't costing him any money, and in fact, might be making him some with your patronage.

Also, as a store owner, he should realize the main reason people go to local stores is for convenience - otherwise I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum would buy offline exclusively, especially with some of the deals out there.

If it no longer becomes convenient to go to the local store, he has turned away your business. It is rather unfortunate, especially when you're adding color to your army with homemade pieces. I'd love to see what they guy thinks of my all Green Stuff Daemons army! They're generally ok with that at stores, since it uses GW bits and GW green stuff.

If I were you, I would stop going there on principle. It's a hobby, not a subscription, and as a hobbyist you should be able to model your own guys, especially if you got the parts from him.

My advice? Make your own tables and have game nights at houses rather than the store!

hybridreality
08-10-2010, 07:59
As far as I can tell from experience and speaking to store managers, in any GW shops you can use scratch built models as long as they contain some GW bits. So just stick some bits onto your models to decorate them.

If he says that is not allowed then he is basically condemning all conversion, it's a sad day when you are more free to play in an official GW than a hobby store.

azoxystrobin
08-10-2010, 08:16
Could you upload some pics of your models please?

Maybe they are too good, and the owner is worried that people will also scratchbuild rather than pay money for the usual models?

Is it really about your models though? Maybe something else has happened? did you beat the guy in a game?
Did you say something nasty about GW pricing? (not that I would dream of doing anything like that) :D

Mewy
08-10-2010, 08:19
As a fellow converter I hate seeing proxying or scratch builds that are simply space fillers. If my opponent has put effort into the army to make it look decent, then I don't care what the parts are. In a GW store I have had this experience of not being allowed to use a model that isn't off the shelf, undercoated and painted. There was a time when even conversions weren't allowed in the store. And I'm talking about conversions which use 100% GW parts and GS as just gap filling. EVEN IF THE MODEL DID NOT EXIST YET - you have to use something else in your list (like wtf...)
This however has finally passed and conversions are allowed (thank Christ). I think scratch built armies used in hobby stores which sell the materials used to make the army should be used. It inspires people to buy the materials and give it a go themselves.

I feel for you. I can only hope that this passes or that you find a better store. My solution was to simply play with my friends. Those who don't let you play... aren't your friends.

The POINT of hobby and games is to have fun. The objective is to win. If ANYONE confuses these points from your PoV, then you should probably avoid playing with them or at their store.

Lysander The Great
08-10-2010, 08:21
Well I think he's wrong to ask you not to bring them after all it's your army and whether or not they actually sell the models in that shop is a poor excuse!

I have played at GW in Lenton Notts, where everything 40k and fantasy is made let alone sold and I played a full on DBA Persian v Greek battle for 5 hours.. And we weren't the only people playing non GW games.
In fact I even got asked to play DBA another night by a member of staff at Bugman's bar!!

kurisawa
08-10-2010, 08:27
Well nothing that I used was the least bit abstract. I play orcs and goblins, and the models I scratch built were the war machines. I had an old bolt thrower from many years ago, but I thought it looked bad, and had no will to repair it. So I basically went ahead and built a bolt thrower using a very good guide I found on herdstone. It was fun so I built a few more.

The ones I made looked very similiar to that finished product. Then I went ahead and made a catapult out of plasticards. The rest of the army, troops, monsters and characters, were all real and genuine. There was no confusion in what the war machines were. The best part about it is that every single model looked a little different, so I didn't just have a copy of the same model several times on the board.

Hmmm, that doesn't seem right then. As I said in my first reply, I've done exactly the same thing - O&G rocklobbas. The rest of your reply, about having all the other real models ready, doesn't quite jive with your initial post about lack of cash and using spare bases all the time.

I'm not going to call you a liar though! :)

If it just a matter of some war-machines amongst an otherwise legally made army, I think you should go ahead and attract players away to play at your house.

If there is more to this that you aren't telling us, well, you'll have to use your own judgement.

K.

theorox
08-10-2010, 08:30
Can you upload some pics of all your scratchbuilds? I'd love to see them, and it would be easier to say "Wow, that should be OK!" or "OMGWTFISTHAT?!" :D

Theo

Urgat
08-10-2010, 08:36
You know, I'd feel for you, if you didn't write that:


Obviously, i'm not going to spend $200+ on models I don't need

You went to the trouble of making scratchbuilt versions that you don't need? If you didn't need them, you'd just wouldn't field them, and there would be no fuss about it. Besides, a couple chukkas and a rocklobber don't count $200+. I would have agreed about everything, if you didn't slip that little bit in, which I find seriously wrong. If that's the argument you used, it's very clear why the owner accepted the empty bases, but not the scrachtbuilt models: empty bases are models waiting to be bought. You probably brought those bases around for a while, and in the end, instead of buying anything, you brought handmade stuff. I don't know your store, but the ones I know, I barely understand how they can make a living. To the manager, that probably was a kick in the nuts.


The POINT of hobby and games is to have fun. The objective is to win. If ANYONE confuses these points from your PoV, then you should probably avoid playing with them or at their store.

The point of a store is to make money. The hobby is nice and cool, but no money, no store. That's a simple equation, isn't it?

Lazarian
08-10-2010, 08:41
It seems odd a store owner would toss a player under the bus in regards to those models. Is there something else, like youve never spent a dime there or something and make ruckus? If your at least a paying customer in general its lunacy for them to declare that by fiat.

The OnG army we have floating around uses sprues and bits from the wolf rider sprue to make bolt throwers and rock lobas. They look really solid and are painted well, I cant think anyone would have an issue with them since the parts came from a GW box.

If I were singled out like that there would be quizzical looks then very bad word of mouth amongst those currently in the store as I walked out with a few customers in tow.

In the end id have a conversation with him and try to be reasonable, something doesnt add up one way or another with this story at first blush so I dont know.

DarthSte
08-10-2010, 08:43
Generally, I think scratch building is great, but if you play in a shop, then I think you need to be buying most of your models in that shop, or else why would the owner let you stay there for an hour or more? You're using up space that paying customers could be using.

The Ape
08-10-2010, 08:59
Scratchbuilding models that are relatively cheap is pretty tight. They don't exactly cost $200! So I can see the shop owners point of view.

Scratchbuilding a Titan is another matter entirely however...

Vashta
08-10-2010, 09:05
Scrach-builds and conversions have always been and should always be part of this hobby. There are a fair few units that don't have GW models, what are we supposed to do, not field them?

wizbix
08-10-2010, 09:06
No one here can make an informed comment with out seeing some pictures of your scratch built models first.

Vashta
08-10-2010, 09:58
No one here can make an informed comment with out seeing some pictures of your scratch built models first.

Surely they can't be worse than an empty base?

theorox
08-10-2010, 10:01
Surely they can't be worse than an empty base?

Good point. :)

Theo

Wishing
08-10-2010, 10:22
It is an interesting question. As already mentioned, there are two opposing ways of looking at the issue of scratch built models from the store owner's perspective. 1) If everyone scratch built models instead of buying the official ones, the store would go out of business, so he doesn't want models in his store that advertise that option. 2) Games being played in his store generates interest in the game, and unique looking models raise even further interest, so banning unique looking models is stupid and generates ill will. Either viewpoint can be said to be sound business sense, depending on your preference.

I do think that GW in general encourage scratch building, probably because they (correctly) assume that very few people will actually scratch build whole armies, so if players have fun building their own catapults, then they will be likely to buy more GW plastic orcs to go with them. As such, I think the store owner probably overreacted, but you can't really criticize someone for following their own feelings on what helps their business the most. The solution (which the OP already emplys) is to take the business aspect out of the equation and just play at home with friends.

Urgat
08-10-2010, 11:05
No one here can make an informed comment with out seeing some pictures of your scratch built models first.

Why? Is a well-made scratchbuilt model more valid than a non well-made one? Is that a matter that is to be based on skills? The only way I could see it matter is that his "scratchbuilt" chukka turned out to be two matches glued together. As he has implied otherwise, there's no need to assume he would be lying, and therefore the point should be moot.
Or are we that elitist now?

The Ape
08-10-2010, 11:38
Scrach-builds and conversions have always been and should always be part of this hobby. There are a fair few units that don't have GW models, what are we supposed to do, not field them?

That's not what the op is talking about-there are models available but he doesn't want to buy them. For whatever reason.

I have no problem with people scratch building. But I can see the store owners reasons for saying what he said-he's not letting people use his store for charitable reasons-it's to make money. People using scratch built models instead of the purchased item is sticking up two fingers to the shop owner and may contribute to lost sales, which in turn means no shop in the long run.

theunwantedbeing
08-10-2010, 11:50
I thought games workshops encouraged people to build their own models.

No, GW encourages you to buy lots of kits and use those kits to make your own models. Not to buy loads of base materials and build your own cheaper variants of things they sell.

Post pics of this scratchbuild, unless you've destroyed it already.
It's as bad as people's logs in the painting section where they blab about models they're painting or converting but never post any actual pics of them.

kaubin
08-10-2010, 12:04
a couple of orc and goblin warmachines is $200+ though, with the price increases we're looking at a 30$ per bolt thrower and a whoping 70$ per catapult, when a few years ago you could get a much more ornate and beautiful dark elf bolt thrower for about 20$. It is a rip off, especially when the original model doesn't particularily "do it" for you.

It is a financial issue. It is also an aesthetics issue. 200$ is almost a months rent, and the bolt thrower that's real and that I do own is so ugly I even preffer to take my scratchbuilt models over it if i'm fielding less.

Since I started playing at the store I spent around 300$+ there, which was over the year, in paint, supplies, books, and models. I'm not giving them all my money, but I spent that money there to support the store I played at first and foremost.

I can see his point of view, in part. But at some point, I was encouraging the hobby publically with most of my models being games workshop. I'll try and post some pictures of my warmachines a little later if you all want to see them.

edit - I was under the assumption of GW promoting scratchbuilding a little throw the 40k paperhammer models that they were releasing previously, which only used paper, a little greenstuff, and weapons bits.

Djekar
08-10-2010, 12:08
I scratch built a rock lobba so I could try it out before spending any of my limited gaming money on one and was told by a local store owner "not in my store". I feel your pain, but people on the thread are right: both about the need for him to make a profit and about it being his store, so he gets to make the rules. I have a feeling this owner might have had a similar reaction if you had walked in a week after having a bunch of empty bases and replaced all those empty bases with some ebay'd army to show off to everyone.

All that being said, I'm thinking about fielding a second lobba and I'm seriously looking at re-tooling the previous one and giving it another go.

Wishing
08-10-2010, 12:09
Why? Is a well-made scratchbuilt model more valid than a non well-made one? Is that a matter that is to be based on skills? The only way I could see it matter is that his "scratchbuilt" chukka turned out to be two matches glued together. As he has implied otherwise, there's no need to assume he would be lying, and therefore the point should be moot. Or are we that elitist now?


I agree that two different types of debate seem to be getting mixed here.

One is the principal discussion of whether a store owner is justified in banning a scratch-built model containing no GW parts from his gaming area, and for this discussion it should be irrelevant what the model looks like - we know what we need to know, which is that it is scratch built and has no GW parts. This is the question that was asked in the OP.

The other discussion is a more general "what do you think of this scratch built model?", which wasn't asked in the OP, but which threads always tend to gravitate towards when specific models are being discussed. People that want to offer opinions on the model itself obviously can't do so without pictures.

sheck2
08-10-2010, 12:17
I am a big supporter of scratch-building as it emphasizes the hobby.

Do you have somewhere else to play?

The store is a business...it's like going to Burger King getting a Whopper, fries, Mountain Dew and chili...then walking across the street and eating them in a McDonald's. It makes sense that McDonalds asks you to leave...

Now if you have the Big Mac, fries, and you bring the Mountain Dew (because you like)...then the owner is a PIB. And you need to go somewhere else.

And post the store name here in that case - visibility helps stop PIBs.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
08-10-2010, 12:28
I can assure you that McDonalds will ask you to leave (or at least pack away) your own beverages.

And thats pretty fair, their beverages are the only thing remotely 'edible' in the place ;)

Edahlo
08-10-2010, 12:30
Scratchbuilding is fine, if done well. And within "reason". If someone scratchbuilds everything but their core troops, it's a bit much.

I can see where the shopowner is coming from, he's got a buisness to run, and wants people playing there to "advertise" the products he has to offer. But that doesn't mean I agree with his actions. As you pointed out, he does sell the materials needed to scratchbuild something. And it's a pretty established part of the hobby, quite a few people do it. I think his reaction was a little harsh and too focused on problem rather than solution.

kaubin
08-10-2010, 13:11
Here is my scratchbuilt bolt throwers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/Mad_Handerchief/scratch/DSC02307.jpg

one of them is missing a handle, it broke off yesterday (I guess it was just "one of those days").

And here is my real bolt thrower, that i'm not too fond of

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/Mad_Handerchief/scratch/DSC02310.jpg

I followed a DIY guide to make them, and when the basic shape was done, I added detailing to make each unique. I also have a WIP lobba, but I didn't take a picture as it is in progress. Either way, they are all banned, which means I won't have to carry them around anymore :D

arch_inquisitor
08-10-2010, 13:15
The shop owner overreacted plain and simple, I go to two privately owned shops in my area and neither of them care one way or the other. I have several scratch builds in my 'counts as' Space Wolves and I am permitted to play in store and any tournaments they hold. Neither place is going out of business because of me, because for the most part no one is willing to put that much work into saving a few bucks.

In fact this was one big missed opportunity by the shop owner. If he had half a brain he would have stocked his shelves with things like putty and plati-card, and showcased what the OP could do with said materials, thus driving up sales instead of losing a customer.

But please one person with scratch built models leading to the demise of a store?,simply ridiculous.

The models are very well done by the way.

BigRob
08-10-2010, 14:32
IMO the owner overreacted but had a good point. One off games with proxies is one thing to get a feel for the army or rules, we have all done it. To use empty bases and say "But they are GW bases".... is a little off, I wouldn't be happy to play against that. Whats to stop me printing out pictures of goblins, sticking them to card and mounting the card on a GW base, look its 50%GW model right, I can use it ;)

At the end of the day this hobby is kind of about the miniatures. If you just want to wargame then go cut out some cardboard counters and play the game with them. Nothing wrong with scratchbuilding/converting with GW bits and bobs but if you can buy it in the shop, then there is no need to assume the coke can will suffice in every game.

As for the money, yes its enough to make you :cries: sometimes but that is why we love independent sellers, they are cheaper. If you want to play in his store, you gotta support it or it will be gone, simple as. I've seen plenty of FLGS and decent comicbook/random awesome stuff shops fold because people decided to go in, browse the stuff, then go buy it online cheaper.

If you want to play there, buy there. If you and your mates want to play in your garage on a friday night, then unleash the coke cans and empty bases of war!

Great scratchbuilds btw, but whats wrong with the old bolt thrower? I think it looks fine, a very nice model from its time.

Archibald_TK
08-10-2010, 14:52
In fact this was one big missed opportunity by the shop owner. If he had half a brain he would have stocked his shelves with things like putty and plasticard, and showcased what the OP could do with said materials, thus driving up sales instead of losing a customer.
Things are a little more complex than insulting the brain of someone you don't know don't you think? But what am I talking about, we are on the Internet...

Plasticard is very cheap and you require very few of it to do some nice scratchbuilds (as the OP demonstrated in his pic), in addition players tend to already have glue and other GS from their regular GW hobby (EDIT - I intended to mean that if they were already playing a GW game they were already having items like glue and GS, not that they were shopping in a GW Hobby center)

If some players decide to go that way the shop owner will lose around 10$ profit per O&G Balista not sold (assuming the US has the same margin as us), that won't be really retrieved by selling plasticard. And it will go worse the more models players decide to scratchbuild.

Basically, the shop owner has to think "Will promoting that kind of product turn out netting me less income than promoting regular GW ones." If so he will ask for his customer to not play with them. Nothing special here.

Malorian
08-10-2010, 15:47
My scratch built Mazdamundi looks like garbage and yet I'm heard nothing but praise simply because it's fun to see a special character that you've never played against before.

arch_inquisitor
08-10-2010, 16:10
Things are a little more complex than insulting the brain of someone you don't know don't you think? But what am I talking about, we are on the Internet...

My argument is a little more complex than insulting the store owners brain.


Plasticard is very cheap and you require very few of it to do some nice scratchbuilds (as the OP demonstrated in his pic), in addition players tend to already have glue and other GS from their regular GW hobby. If some players decide to go that way the shop owner will lose around 10$ profit per O&G Balista not sold (assuming the US has the same margin as us), that won't be really retrieved by selling plasticard. And it will go worse the more models players decide to scratchbuild.

This argument makes a lot of assumptions, in defense of this guy. like assuming that the people who shop there already having everything they need for modeling from a GW hobby, if this is the case why go to the Indie at all if the GW hobby is right there.
Another assumption is that everyone who sees a scratch build will have both the inclination and skill to do so themselves, its simply not that common that one can scratch build to say a level like the OP's or even if they can its even more rare that they would scratch build an entire army. I know a lot of people who play but very few that do major conversions let alone scratch building. Saying that one person doing this will cause a ripple effect that will destroy the store is again just silly.
Of course you aren't going to make up the sales on modeling supplies vs actual models, I didn't say that one would. my point is that instead of excluding potential customers as a policy like this could, he could be making some profit from customers like this. Trying to bank on only those customers that buy actual models will likely kill the store sooner that this guys scratch built models will.


Basically, the shop owner has to think "Will promoting that kind of product turn out netting me less income than promoting regular GW ones." If so he will ask for his customer to not play with them. Nothing special here.

I still fail to see how chasing customers out the door is 'good for business'.
As I mentioned before two different stores I play at have no problem with scratch builds, but then they are pretty business savvy they both have extensive modeling supply sections and the few hardcore modelers I know spend all kinds of money on that stuff over actual models.

A scratch built model is not some Nurgle plague that will infect anyone who sees one. Scratch building takes time, skill and motivation and its kinda rare that one has all three.

spetswalshe
08-10-2010, 16:17
First off; those bolt throwers are awesome. Artillery pieces - and bolt throwers in particular - often get scratchmade, because they are relatively simple and don't require actual sculpting skills, like scratchbuilding an infantry model. Basically, they're scenery; GW has (and continues to have) a long history of encouraging scratchbuilding of scenery, presumably because up until very recently they simply didn't have much of their own scenery for sale. WD still features scenery incorporating products (like giant skulls) from other companies, and still expect you to get your plasticard from someplace else.


Generally, I think scratch building is great, but if you play in a shop, then I think you need to be buying most of your models in that shop, or else why would the owner let you stay there for an hour or more? You're using up space that paying customers could be using.

This is the most important post of the thread. Personally, I would think buying paints, supplies and the odd model or book is enough, but unfortunately being reasonable isn't a requirement for running a store. Some owners will expect you to be buying practically a new army every month; others will be happy for you to add to the store's atmosphere while only making a few big purchases a year - but many will consider you to be taking liberties if you turn up and play without ever spending a penny (money-wise, obviously going to the toilet isn't doing him any favours).

Of course, this isn't the experience the OP has had. It seems to me like the owner is kicking him out simply because his scratchbuilds are better than the existing models; people will ask him how he made them, he'll point out how easy it is and no one will ever buy an OnG Bolt Thrower box from that store again. They'll buy plasticard, obviously, and by 'no one' I mean 'just those people who are in the store at the same time or personally know of Kabuin's artillery', but still.

I personally wouldn't do this - a few sales aren't worth compromising the atmosphere of the store and my own status as a nice guy, and the sales lost by having this guy and his friends not come back will probably be more than those gained by selling OnG artillery - but then I guess my 'store' would quickly end up as a Wayland catalogue and few gaming tables in a pub car park.

therat
08-10-2010, 16:20
The store is a business...it's like going to Burger King getting a Whopper, fries, Mountain Dew and chili...then walking across the street and eating them in a McDonald's. It makes sense that McDonalds asks you to leave...

Actually, it's more like making your own burger & fries at home, then taking them to McDonald's to eat.

Considering the OP also purchased the rest of his army from the shop he was playing in, it would be akin to buying a burger, fries, and drink from McDonald's but bringing the cookie from home.

If no models were purchased at the shop I could see where the owner/manager would have a problem. If it were an official GW store, I could also see an issue, but it isn't and the OP says he has been buying things there for a while A few scratch built pieces shouldn't have been an issue.

wizbix
08-10-2010, 16:25
Why? Is a well-made scratchbuilt model more valid than a non well-made one? Is that a matter that is to be based on skills? The only way I could see it matter is that his "scratchbuilt" chukka turned out to be two matches glued together. As he has implied otherwise, there's no need to assume he would be lying, and therefore the point should be moot.
Or are we that elitist now?

Because his idea of a scratch built model could be sheer pants, who knows? I I believe I have a valid point. I still would like to see photo's so that I can make an informed opinion. (I havent looked at the rest of the thread yet to see if he's included any). I also would like to know what percentage of his army is converted and to what level, these do count. I think what I had in mind was what we considered "reasonable" and with out knowing what exactly he has made then we cant decide if it was reasonable or not surely?

Edit: the bolt throwers look pretty good but what else is there?

CaliforniaGamer
08-10-2010, 16:29
quick answer: no they are not frowned on where I am at all, in fact they are encouraged at every level of the hobby by players, store owners and GW employees at retail shops.

this could be cultural? bizarre story.

Ender Shadowkin
08-10-2010, 16:30
Firstly, you do 'need' them if you want to play there.

Secondly, I do think that this is his right. Depending on the circumstance and degree. He probally saw you playing with empty bases for some time and was ok with it because he assumed eventually those empty bases would be filled with models he would get some profit from. Then after some time of watching this happens he sees you fill them with home made models and not only that people complement you! What if these people who were complementing you then thought of doing this themselves? You are in his store advertising the lack of need to buy models?

I think this all depends on degrees. Did you stratch build one or two models with plans to buy more 'real' ones? Or did you stratch build lots and start mentioning offhand that you'll never have to buy a model again?

It sucks you can't play there, but I got the impression that your attitude wasn't very supportive of the local store. If you had never been very supportive of the local store, not brought many models and then one day show up with homemade models I think he was justified in 'banning' you.

The local store is a store for it's customers to enjoy games at. Why should he let you play there if you dont supply him with money? Why are you suprised about this? If you dont give him money every now and again why should he let you play there?
The answer because you playing there helps other people have games and so your playing there encourages other peoples custom (so, indirectly, you help give him custom). However if you have consistantly not been playing with models and even moving further away from playing with paid for models then your influence on the store could have been to discourage sales instead of encourage.

So basically, you give him no money and possibly discourage others from doing so - so he kicks you out of the store like any small business owner should do. Supply him directly or indirectly with revenue or play somewhere else.

***If anything I'm basing my opinion off here isn't true then I am sorry - I don't know all the facts by a longshot. What I've written is only one opinion on it based on incomplete information***






Agree with this, It comes down to that guy is not holding a comunity service event. he is trying to make a living, perhaps support his family. If he felt like you were detracting from his sales, well can't blame him. And it seams like he did not ban you, just aslked that you not bring in the scratch built stuff. I don't know how polite he or you were about it. But other resolutions is for you to have a discussion with him, and list the ways you are supporting his store (i.e. the things you are buying from him) or even offer to create a tutrial for building the war machines out of the things he sells in his store.


quick answer: no they are not frowned on where I am at all, in fact they are encouraged at every level of the hobby by players, store owners and GW employees at retail shops.

this could be cultural? bizarre story.

Same here as well ;). While I feel it is the owners rights to ask that you don't use scratch builts, I have NEVER seen this happen. Like noted above, usually its the opposite, green stuff is pricey too :). Perhaps there is more going on here than meets the eye.

theunwantedbeing
08-10-2010, 16:33
I still fail to see how chasing customers out the door is 'good for business'.

I fail to see how asking a person not to use a bunch of scratchbuilt models is "chasing customers out the door".

The OP was not banned from the store.
Seems to me like the store manager saw the attention they were getting and realised that if he didn't disallow such things from the store his profit margins might reduce dramatically.

A few bits of plasticard cost a damned sight less than four metal bolt throwers afterall. That's a lot of money to lose out on per person.
Something like nearly $20 he isn't getting, per pasticard bolt thrower that turns up.

I'de of done the same thing had I been that store manager.

N810
08-10-2010, 16:35
How is this any differet than if he had gotten them off of eBay or some other store ?
Whats next ?
Only being able to play with models you bought at that store ???
After all he did buy the plastic card and I assuming the bases at that store...

Ender Shadowkin
08-10-2010, 16:39
How is this any differet than if he had gotten them off of eBay or some other store ?
Whats next ?
Only being able to play with models you bought at that store ???
After all he did buy the plastic card and I assuming the bases at that store...

It is different because somebody else will see them and decide not to buy from the store and make them theselves. If They are from Ebay, presumable similar models would be for sale at the store. The main reason to host games (as an owner) is to show case the game itself and items you have for sale.

otherone
08-10-2010, 16:45
I fail to see how asking a person not to use a bunch of scratchbuilt models is "chasing customers out the door".


Greetings all, first post at Warseer, and a comment on this topic. I'm a business owner. I'm also a gamer. If my gaming group and I were patrons of a local shop, then collectively we would be spending a small fortune over time at that shop. The only thing that my group would be getting from that shop is atmosphere. We would be losing a significant internet discount, and more significantly, the opportunity to drink alcohol by playing there. With the proliferation of less expensive games, storeowners usually are grateful to have ANYONE show up to play. People playing games at stores sells models. If my local gamestore forbid me to use scratchbuilt models, then my group and I simply would not return. Any business owner that seeks to alienate his clientele won't be in business for long.

RogueCanadian
08-10-2010, 16:51
While a little different, I agree with N810, I have 2 actual GWs within 10 miles of my house and i go to each almost equally, it would be weird if GW 1 said i couldnt use models i got from GW 2 in GW 1.

bert n ernie
08-10-2010, 17:09
This is a small possibility, but it could be that the models are not painted, nor do they have the goblins on the base. Perhaps he would let you bring them to the store once they're done.
You said yourself that you've been going in with just bases for some parts of the army. He might not mind these when they are nearer completion. Especially if you're using some well converted goblins bought from his store to decorate the models.
Also, is this the first time you used plasti-card bases? Could that be his problem?

arch_inquisitor
08-10-2010, 18:13
I'de of done the same thing had I been that store manager.

And you would have lost my business for good I have plenty of options where I am and scratching a shop off the list wouldn't hurt me one bit.

And a lot of posters insist that this is something that would spread like wild fire completely destroying a store's customer base, and shutting them down. This is a very paranoid assumption at best.

Archibald_TK
08-10-2010, 19:30
This argument makes a lot of assumptions, in defense of this guy. like assuming that the people who shop there already having everything they need for modeling from a GW hobby, if this is the case why go to the Indie at all if the GW hobby is right there.
My bad, I intended to say that if they were already playing a GW game (= GW hobby to me) they were already owning items like glue and potentially GS, I forgot that in English you were calling GW shops Hobby Centers. Now that that point is cleared...


Another assumption is that everyone who sees a scratch build will have both the inclination and skill to do so themselves, its simply not that common that one can scratch build to say a level like the OP's or even if they can its even more rare that they would scratch build an entire army. I know a lot of people who play but very few that do major conversions let alone scratch building. Saying that one person doing this will cause a ripple effect that will destroy the store is again just silly.
Of course you aren't going to make up the sales on modeling supplies vs actual models, I didn't say that one would. my point is that instead of excluding potential customers as a policy like this could, he could be making some profit from customers like this. Trying to bank on only those customers that buy actual models will likely kill the store sooner that this guys scratch built models will.
Indeed I make assumptions, that is how I work. Assumptions are what determine how much of each GW releases I will order (it's the reason why I don't have 20 Pyrovores gathering dust on the shelves for example, because I assumed that the model would sell very very poorly).
In the case interesting us I'd like to make something clear, I'm not telling you that to many people turning into scratchbuilders would kill that shop, I'm telling you the shop owner has to consider if he will lose money in the long term.

For example we are an independent shop that sells quite a large amount of GW products and support other ranges of modeling products. And it works pretty well, we supply our customers who desire modeling and scratchbuilding items while at the same time we do not strangle the GW range. There is a balance.


I still fail to see how chasing customers out the door is 'good for business'.
As I mentioned before two different stores I play at have no problem with scratch builds, but then they are pretty business savvy they both have extensive modeling supply sections and the few hardcore modelers I know spend all kinds of money on that stuff over actual models.
From the OP post I see that the only thing the shop owner asked him was to no longer use scratchbuilt models. "I was offended and decided to no longer shop here" is quite different from "I was chased out the door".
Also remember that you only got one side of the story.


A scratch built model is not some Nurgle plague that will infect anyone who sees one. Scratch building takes time, skill and motivation and its kinda rare that one has all three.
You are talking from you personal experience. Neither you nor I can tell how things work for his shop. I can tell you for example that here a lot of people do that, a lot! It's not a plague in any way (at least it never killed anyone) but you are vastly underestimating how different multiple shops' pools of customers may be.

Chaos and Evil
08-10-2010, 19:36
Obviously, i'm not going to spend $200+ on models I don't need, and would rather spend that money creatively building a table for my friends and I to play on, but I just felt that this kind of reasoning was downright stupid, and made no sense.
Do that, then.

Otherwise, his store, his tables, his rules.

kaubin
08-10-2010, 19:47
Thanks for all the replies. It helped me realize his point of view a little better. I'm sure he won't be making as much money from the hobby supplies as the models, although it was a lot of fun making stuff with them.

He was not rude in any way, shape, or form, but it did feel like quite a blow, I really did enjoy playing with these more personal pieces in an atmosphere where I could show them off. I'm sure that even if I painted them they wouldn't be accepted, so i'm not going to try.

I'll probably take a break from playing until I can set somthing up, by making a table (which will have the sweet ability of being able to play even after the store closes) and/or completely finish an army, basing, painting and all that that is tournament level worthy. Either way, tons of fun fiddling around!

amysrevenge
08-10-2010, 19:53
It is different because somebody else will see them and decide not to buy from the store and make them theselves.

Still seems like a silly justification to me. The "somebody else" in this scenario has to have the following qualifications in order for this to be true:

1) Plays (or is interested in playing) Warhammer - a given
2) Knows enough about the game to be interested in fielding the specific scratch-built model, or a similar model, but doesn't currently own one.
3) Has the hobby skills and interest to attempt a scratch-build of their own
4) Previously had no idea that scratch-building was even possible.

It's point 4 that really makes this one silly for me.

CaliforniaGamer
08-10-2010, 19:54
I fail to see how asking a person not to use a bunch of scratchbuilt models is "chasing customers out the door".

The OP was not banned from the store.
Seems to me like the store manager saw the attention they were getting and realised that if he didn't disallow such things from the store his profit margins might reduce dramatically.

A few bits of plasticard cost a damned sight less than four metal bolt throwers afterall. That's a lot of money to lose out on per person.
Something like nearly $20 he isn't getting, per pasticard bolt thrower that turns up.

I'de of done the same thing had I been that store manager.

If you have a gaming area and are bound and determined to have such rules, shouldnt they be posted?
Shouldnt every non-store model be put to the same test?
Seems to me like this guy was singled out with a model built from materials at that very store, which is insane. Yeah plasticard is $$<GW crap, but it is something...

You cant run a successful business if you dont at least appreciate all the sales.

I hope OP learns his lesson and spends his hard earned coin at a place with more biz sense and customer service skill.

I literally cannot imagine any shop in my area doing anything like this, so its very hard to even rationally comment.
Did this take place in the US? or what? just curious

wizbix
08-10-2010, 20:16
Thanks for all the replies. It helped me realize his point of view a little better. I'm sure he won't be making as much money from the hobby supplies as the models, although it was a lot of fun making stuff with them.



+ 1 internet points for being able to come round and admit this.

Urgat
08-10-2010, 21:51
And here is my real bolt thrower, that i'm not too fond of

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/Mad_Handerchief/scratch/DSC02310.jpg

Send it to me if you don't like it :p


I'll probably take a break from playing until I can set somthing up, by making a table (which will have the sweet ability of being able to play even after the store closes) and/or completely finish an army, basing, painting and all that that is tournament level worthy. Either way, tons of fun fiddling around!

Or you can take it easy, keep your (quite nice) scratchbuilt chukkas when you play home, and keep playing at the store w/o them. Won't hurt you to try an army w/o a wall of chukkas anyway, good for the skills :p (yeah that was a low blow, so what? :D )

Wakerofgods
08-10-2010, 22:10
Why? Is a well-made scratchbuilt model more valid than a non well-made one? Is that a matter that is to be based on skills? The only way I could see it matter is that his "scratchbuilt" chukka turned out to be two matches glued together. As he has implied otherwise, there's no need to assume he would be lying, and therefore the point should be moot.
Or are we that elitist now?

I think you have missed the point here. This isn't a place he has a right to play that can be taken away from him in extreme cases. This is a place he has no right to play but one can be given to him by the store owner.

The point is that this is an independant store, a small business. Your answer would be spot on (imo) if this were a club (well, most clubs), but a store is a very different story.

Stores only (and only should) promote gaming insofar as it helps him sell models. This dosen't mean he should be really strict about who should play there as this would probally be counter productive. But this does mean he should be strict in certian cases - and this guy may have been one of these cases.

Club =/= independant store.

Nottheface!
08-10-2010, 22:27
Well, he sold you the plasticard, didn't he? What ELSE do you use plasticard for if not scratchbuilding? :p

And it isn't so easy to just pick up some plasticard and start building. I consider myself the best hobbyist in my gaming group, but none other than me seems to be greatly interested in trying to make things I've done (even the simple stuff).

Another thing: if it is so easy to make everything that you think looks nice (like OP's bolt throwers), I would be swimming in scratchbuilt models by now :p You don't make something just because you can, many (maybe most) people find the real models to be very nice and worth the money to buy it.

N810
08-10-2010, 22:32
Sound like he may have gone to this business school...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ3AOmZ2fps&NR=1

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 22:44
A few little things I wanted to add to the discussion.

Firstly, paint. They're indeed very nice little scratchbuilds, but if they were painted, would the store owner have ever had an issue with them even if he knew they were scratchbuilds? I doubt it. That bright white plasticard, however, is very noticable. However, this is 20-20 hindsight advice, obviously you didn't know that beforehand.

It's an interesting discussion. I've NEVER had an issue with a scratchbuild in all my years of wargaming, although I've heard some crazy store-manager-arbitrary-rules in my time.

My advice is: paint the bolt throwers (including the old ugly one), bring them with you and have a quiet and reasonable chat with the owner. If you've been a regular customer (as you say you have) then he should listen to you. It would have been one thing if you're playing there and never parting with any cash, but if he's aware you spend money from time to time then if you calmly explain that you like the store and want to continue playing but this matter would prompt you to play at home, he might relent, especially if you show him that the scratchbuilds have been painted. He may not realise that this is actually big enough of a deal to make you stop playing there. If he still doesn't say okay, simply thank him for the games there and say goodbye.

ChrisIronBrow
08-10-2010, 22:55
I think you have missed the point here. This isn't a place he has a right to play that can be taken away from him in extreme cases. This is a place he has no right to play but one can be given to him by the store owner.

In my experience it's the shops that have this attitude that quickly go out of business. If the tables aren't for the use of the customers, why would anyone purchase from them? They can get far cheaper online.

Sparowl
08-10-2010, 23:26
First of all, those are some nice looking BTs. Good job there.

Secondly, I managed a local hobby store for awhile, and frankly, our customers would've rioted if we'd instituted a rule like that. Not to mention the patronage we probably would've lost from the three Golden Daemon winners who come in, who buy pretty much all their conversion supplies from us (and every miniature they do is a conversion or scratch build). Honestly, I would've been with them. Even though my lizardmen are all stock models, my 40k orks aren't, and to suddenly not be able to use them would be enough to make me uninterested in playing at that store.

However, that's never been an issue. And considering the owner, it never will. Why? Because he realizes that conversions might be awesome to look at, and some people might try and duplicate them, but most people are just going to buy the models. A lot of people either don't have the time, skill or inclination/motivation to build their own stuff. Quite a few don't have the inclination to paint their own stuff, even.

But they do enjoy playing, and I've seen a fair number of purchases happen right after a game. That happened in the store. Where the product was on the wall, waiting for them to finish. And that doesn't happen if they are at home.

For me, from personal experience, more people playing, whether with scratch builds or stock models, means more games in store, means more sales in store.

People not being allowed to use their toys means less games.....etc.

Lyonator
09-10-2010, 06:25
I scratch-build the s**t out of at least some element of each of my armies.
If some store owner doesn't like it, that's his problem...
thankfully, between having gamed at my LGS for a decade and a half, plus having worked there for a few years, I could get away with a lot more than I do.

As someone who prides himself on quality scratchbuilds/kitbashes/conversions, I think it comes down to the quality...
if it's well done, people will (usually) respond well...
if it's half-assed, not so much

Urgat
09-10-2010, 07:00
I think you have missed the point here. This isn't a place he has a right to play that can be taken away from him in extreme cases. This is a place he has no right to play but one can be given to him by the store owner.

The point is that this is an independant store, a small business. Your answer would be spot on (imo) if this were a club (well, most clubs), but a store is a very different story.

Stores only (and only should) promote gaming insofar as it helps him sell models. This dosen't mean he should be really strict about who should play there as this would probally be counter productive. But this does mean he should be strict in certian cases - and this guy may have been one of these cases.

Club =/= independant store.

I know that, I don't think I missed the point. Considering the fact that it's a store, my point would be that the owner wouldn't give a damn if it's well made or not (or, actually, it's worse the better it's made, see further down in my post), the problem being it's a scratchbuilt model and not one he sold himself (a good GW model worth its weight in gol- her, virtual cash). Even if the guy sold the plasticard, if it somehow gets into his head that people will figure that it's much cheaper to buy some plastic and make their stuff themselves, he's going to think he's going to lose money.
We can push it further in the paranoia stroke and point out that the cooler the model will look, the more impressed the people will be, and the more they will want to emulate that, or so he might think. We can reach a peak by pointing out he might even decide to stop selling plasticard because in the long run it'd make him lose money :p (just to be safe, I'm in no case saying it's sensible or he'd do anything that extreme, I'm just pushing the scenario to its most silly limit).

So no, I don't think I missed the point, anyway :p

smithers
09-10-2010, 19:30
Interesting thread. After seeing the photos of your models I think I can understand where the shopkeeper was coming from. Your BTs are so much better than the GW product that no one who sees them is going to want to buy the original. Even people who have no interest in building them might offer to pay you $10 whatever for one of your unique scratchbuilts.

My wife is thinking about getting into the hobby with woodelves, so I also am thinking about a unit of scratchbuilt treekin. This thread gave me some food for thought and I guess I'll at least try to include a bunch of dryad parts so I can play them in a GW shop.

Nice crafting BTW & GL

TheWarmaster
09-10-2010, 20:33
We have a shop here that sells GW.
We have an club, not in any way related to some silly sales & such.
We allow a lot of proxying, and scratchbuilds.
Too bad we haven't got that many good hobbyists around here.
That's the solution to this kind of problem: Have an club apart from the store

xxRavenxx
09-10-2010, 22:28
To throw a comment in as someone who runs a store, and can see both sides of this argument:


99% of my customers are free to scratch build, convert, scrimp, save, whatever. I will not prevent them from using their models, including quantities of things like mantic zombies, plasticard builds, etc.

The remaining 1% (Its a person every couple of years to be honest) gets my metaphorical foot up their ass when they haul out their models, because they spend NOTHING (or close to it) in my store, then expect to come use the tables for several hours, and often verbally flaunt how good it is to not spend a penny in the store, getting out their online bought GW models, or scratch builds, or 3rd party products. And so on and so forth.

I am in no way saying the OP did this, but I am pointing out the mentality behind the actions.

Reasonable customers, coming in, being loyal, and using the customer gaming area, is the symbiosis that a FLGS runs on.

Unreasonable "customers" (ie, non customers) can effectively be shown the door. Its no loss to the store, and, so far as their mentality goes, removal of gaming space is no loss to them. (Look how many people have stated that comment in this thread already - "I'll go elsewhere").

My advice is simple: Go politely ask the store owner why he dislikes your scratch builds. Consider asking him if he'd be happier with them if you bought some plastic goblins from him to crew them. Be diplomatic, but don't try to haggle with him (I find it irritating generally, he may be the same).

If he says no, then tell him (politely) that you feel it is a bit unfair, but that you respect his decision.

Store owners are, in general, doing things for a reason. They aren't evil hatemongers out to victimize people. Talk to the man, and I'm sure you'll not only find out why he doesnt like them, but may well find a way to resolve the situation.


------------

Wall of text crits you for 28 damage. :)

DarkstarSabre
09-10-2010, 23:34
Store owners are, in general, doing things for a reason. They aren't evil hatemongers out to victimize people. Talk to the man, and I'm sure you'll not only find out why he doesnt like them, but may well find a way to resolve the situation.



^
This.

This is what needed to be said. Speak to the man. Find out what he asked you not to do this. Be mature about it rather than coming to the internet to rant and vent it all out.

A lot of the times this sort of thing can be resolved after one conversation.

Engekomkommer
09-10-2010, 23:42
the owner came up and said he did't want me to bring those models anymore. He said they didn't sell those models (obviously because I made them myself), and so they shouldn't be in the store.

If it was me, I'd tell him it's his right to do that, then inform him all the parts came from his store, and I'll be exercising my right not to shop there anymore.

The Ape
10-10-2010, 01:19
There are a lot of petty people on this thread^^^

mkleebank
22-11-2011, 03:12
Scratch building frowned upon?

Not with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caza-NvyTII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GeS9qLyVg&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDTVZrCHJ8&feature=channel_video_title

mbh1127
22-11-2011, 14:49
How is this any differet than if he had gotten them off of eBay or some other store ?
Whats next ?
Only being able to play with models you bought at that store ???
After all he did buy the plastic card and I assuming the bases at that store...

yup

I get that a store owner can do anything he wants but it's just silly.

I have a large oop wfb army that I will take to a local store to play now and then. I didn't buy the stuff from the store but they let me play there and I do end up buying things like paints and other supplies.

I would have been more okay with this story if the guy had a problem with you using empty bases to play.

Urgat
22-11-2011, 15:09
Scratch building frowned upon?

Not with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caza-NvyTII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GeS9qLyVg&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDTVZrCHJ8&feature=channel_video_title

Whoa, irresistible force on this threadomancy spell, pal. Over a year old, and on your very first post, too. Do we hand virtual cookies for that kind of records here? :p

Archibald_TK
22-11-2011, 18:47
Whoa, irresistible force on this threadomancy spell, pal. Over a year old, and on your very first post, too. Do we hand virtual cookies for that kind of records here? :p
When it popped up in my User CP I was like "Wait, what the hell is that thread? When did I post in it? Was I drunk? Why can't I remember, WHY?".

jack da greenskin
22-11-2011, 19:00
When it popped up in my User CP I was like "Wait, what the hell is that thread? When did I post in it? Was I drunk? Why can't I remember, WHY?".

I figured it was such an intense and hotly debated topic, that's how it got 4 pages of posts in the time since I visited warseer last :p