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Althwen
08-10-2010, 10:17
I've done a search on this topic and though there are a number of posts concerning the Transformation of Kadon spell, I haven't been able to find one pertaining to my particular question. So here goes:

The Transformation of Kadon allows a caster to change himself into a dragon.
This dragon has the Breath attack special rule.
A breath attack is a 'one use only' attack

Now, if I were to cast the Transformation of Kadon, transform my caster into a dragon and subsequently have him use the Breath Attack, would he be able to do so again if the spell were to end for whatever reason and I miraculously cast it again during a later stage in the game.

In other words: Does my caster count as a NEW dragon every time he succeeds in casting the spell? Or does he revert to the SAME dragon, which used its breath attack in a previous turn and thus cannot use it again?

Chris_
08-10-2010, 10:26
Interesting question. As the rule for breath weapon talkes about "model" I would argue that even though you transform you are still the same model (retain all special rules and so on), so you are limited to using a breath weapon attack once per game.

Another interesting thing if people agree with me on this is what happens if you transform in to something with a different Breath Weapon? The rules talk about if you have two or more. But actually you never have two of those special rules at the same time so I would probably not allow it even though this one I am not sure of.

Althwen
08-10-2010, 10:49
Interesting reasoning and fascinating addition to my question.
Ofcourse the most logical example would be if I first transformed my caster into a dragon as per the standard casting value of the spell and in a later turn transformed him into the bigger-can-o'-whoopass-version of the dragon, using the upgraded version of the spell.

It would be a terrible shame if during the second transformation he wouldn't be able to use his breath attack (which is probably stronger, but I don't have my BRB with me to check) because he already used one during his first transformation.

But the original question still stands... I wonder what people will make of this.
I'm still not sure what to make of it myself.

decker_cky
08-10-2010, 16:20
If it's a different breath weapon attack, he should be fine. Available are:
S2 breath weapon (Horned Dragon)
S4 breath weapon (Black Hydra)
S4 breath weapon (mountain chimera)
S5 breath weapon (great fire dragon)

So even if a recasting of the same monster doesn't allow for another breath weapon, you should be alright.

Hydra is much better than the horned dragon in most cases by the way.

Yrrdead
08-10-2010, 17:35
I would tend to disagree. I think looking at the Special Rules section for a ruling on this is a little too narrow.

Each successful casting of this spell creates a "new" entity. At least thats my take on it.

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2010, 19:01
The FAQ contradicts the rules instead of clarifying them unfortunately.
A strict compliance with the rules can be very different from any interpretation above

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 19:02
I would tend to disagree. I think looking at the Special Rules section for a ruling on this is a little too narrow.

Each successful casting of this spell creates a "new" entity. At least thats my take on it.

I would tend to agree with this. If this is not the case, I would also agree that as a 'model' can only use a certain BW once and if it has multiple BWs it can use each one of them once. So if you use ToK multiple times to change into multiple beasties, you can use multiple BWs; just not the same one twice.

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 19:03
The FAQ contradicts the rules instead of clarifying them unfortunately.
A strict compliance with the rules can be very different from any interpretation above

What does the FAQ say relative to this?

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2010, 19:13
Apologies, wrong thread.

PeG
08-10-2010, 19:41
We had basically the same debate but regarding wounds. A wizard that has taken 2 wounds turned himself into a dragon, got wounded as a dragon, got dispelled (returned as a wizard that has lost two wounds) and later turned himself back to a dragon. After some discussion we decided that he was a new dragon and as such back at full wounds again.

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 19:54
Hmmm.

I'd say that the MODEL remains the wizard, even if the MODEL changes size and shape. So it can use each Breath Weapon only once. However, I would say that each different beastie has a different Breath Weapon so you can change into a different monster and use each individual Breath Weapon once.

As for Wounds, it says that "wounds suffered by the Wizard are carried over between transformations." So if the wizard suffers one wound, transforms (into a monster with one wound down), suffers another, changes back (with 2 wounds suffered) and transforms again he still has those 2 wounds.

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 19:55
We had basically the same debate but regarding wounds. A wizard that has taken 2 wounds turned himself into a dragon, got wounded as a dragon, got dispelled (returned as a wizard that has lost two wounds) and later turned himself back to a dragon. After some discussion we decided that he was a new dragon and as such back at full wounds again.

Which thread was this? I thought any wounds lost while you were transformed carried back to the wizard. For example, a hero level human wizard looses two wounds while he's a dragon. As soon as he turns back into a human he's dead. Have I been playing this wrong?

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 19:57
Hmmm.

I'd say that the MODEL remains the wizard, even if the MODEL changes size and shape. So it can use each Breath Weapon only once. However, I would say that each different beastie has a different Breath Weapon so you can change into a different monster and use each individual Breath Weapon once.

As for Wounds, it says that "wounds suffered by the Wizard are carried over between transformations." So if the wizard suffers one wound, transforms (into a monster with one wound down), suffers another, changes back (with 2 wounds suffered) and transforms again he still has those 2 wounds.

Ok, that's what I thought. Thanks again LI.

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2010, 20:04
Hmmm.

I'd say that the MODEL remains the wizard, even if the MODEL changes size and shape. So it can use each Breath Weapon only once. However, I would say that each different beastie has a different Breath Weapon so you can change into a different monster and use each individual Breath Weapon once.

As for Wounds, it says that "wounds suffered by the Wizard are carried over between transformations." So if the wizard suffers one wound, transforms (into a monster with one wound down), suffers another, changes back (with 2 wounds suffered) and transforms again he still has those 2 wounds.

Don't really want to enter this debate because the interpretation of these particular rules will always be debatable:)

There's more than 1 interpretation of "wounds suffered by the Wizard are carried over between transformations." and not just the above.

Shas'O Vash
08-10-2010, 20:18
Ah, well in that case lets leave that for another thread and focus on the BW.

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 20:18
Is there? *Scratches head* I can't see it. Can you give me the gist of the argument or link me to an existing thread?

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2010, 20:35
LI: emphasising "wizard" - yields a second interpretation

A similar scrutiny of the other phrases/words yields others but I've said more than I wanted to :)

Lord Inquisitor
08-10-2010, 20:53
Hmm fair enough. I can't find any discussion about it on Warseer, but it seems to be splitting hairs to me. Given that it says "transformations" plural, one presumes that it works both ways. But you're clearly not interested in discussing it, which is fine, I just like to be prewarned about these things.

Chris_
08-10-2010, 22:46
So people seem to agree that you can't use the same kind of monster's Breath Weapon more than once but if you turn in to something different it is okay? The first part I totally agree with and is supported by the rules, the second part I could go with but it is a bit more ambiguous.

So what about two different monsters that have the same special rule? Can you use the Hydra's and Mountain Chimera's? They are identical special rules, Breath Weapon (Strength 4)? I would allow it if I allow different transformations to use their seperate breath weapons once.

Synnister
09-10-2010, 02:42
I disagree with the not being able to reuse the BW. If you stop being a dragon then become one again it's a new monster thus able to use your BW again.

Chris_
09-10-2010, 05:23
^ But the Breath Weapon special rule states "model" and it is still the same "model" after transforming. As a model can only use one breath attack per game this should still restrict him to one of the same kind each game.
Or are you arguing that the wizard becomes a different model everytime?

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 05:52
My feeling on it is mainly each time that you transform you are gaining the Breath Weapon special rule then losing it then gaining it.

I agree that it is really ambiguous and your argument per rules is definitely stronger. Push comes to shove I wouldn't waste time defending my "feeling". The only thing I can say is that the rules for Breath Weapon weren't written with this scenario in mind.

To put it a slightly different way. Let's say that there is a spell(Bad Breath) that gives the caster a Breath Attack @ str x. Duration until start of next magic phase. Caster uses breath weapon in shooting. Could he ever use Bad Breath again? I'd say yes.

I'm assuming that you would say no and I do agree that the Breath Weapon special rules point towards that as well.

Chris_
09-10-2010, 05:57
I would actually gladly welcome a FAQ stating that you can use it again with Bad Breath, Transformation and similar things. I will probably never get to use this anyway as I play TK but I want to be sure I can argue it one way or the other for tournaments and such.