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View Full Version : Grey Seer and Chieftain/ Chieftain BSB builds



Lupercus
09-10-2010, 04:20
Greetings again everyone. I'm looking to get some of your thoughts on Grey Seer builds(both on foot and mounted on a Screaming Bell), and also Chieftain builds of all sorts, including Chieftain Battle Standard Bearer builds. Also, if you have any thoughts regarding Plague Priests, that would be handy too.

I've pretty much got my various preferred Warlord builds sorted out(for the most part), and now it's time to get the other characters in my armies figured out. I definitely look forward to seeing your different thoughts and builds on the matters!

Lupercus

Tarian
09-10-2010, 04:34
For my Seer, I give him a Dispel Scroll and Skalm.

Chieftain gets a shield and Storm Banner.

Lupercus
09-10-2010, 04:36
Thanks, Tarian. Is that Grey Seer build for one on foot, as well as one riding the Screaming Bell? Dig the Chieftain BSB build as well. It seems as though the Storm Banner is a pretty vital piece of kit...

Luperucs

Tarian
09-10-2010, 04:55
I only field my Seer on the bell, actually, and the Chieftain is there to hide in the Bell's unit too.

russellmoo
09-10-2010, 04:57
I tend to take the stormbanner on a unit of stormvermin- so that I can put better protection on the BSB. However, if you aren't running stormvermin, you could always take it on a BSB then place an assassin in the unit-

For a grey seer, I like this skalm, 3 warpstone tokens, dispel scroll- this means D3+3 tokens to use in casting spells- which I prefer over the power scroll as I tend not to try and get IF but rather cast all 4 of my spells every turn I can.

Lupercus
09-10-2010, 05:07
Tarian: I'd definitely be running my Grey Seer on the Screaming Bell as well, however at the moment, I'm trying to fit both the Grey Seer and a Warlord into a 2000 point list. I love the Bell, but I'll be using it later on(ie. higher points games). Luckily I made a model of my Grey Seer on foot along with the Bell-mounted version....I knew it would come in handy.

russellmoo: I like your idea regarding the Storm Banner a lot! I can see it being a bit more survivable, perhaps, when given to a Stormvermin unit, and like you said, allow for some protective items to be purchased for the all-important BSB. Speaking of which, what protective items do you suggest for a Chieftain BSB? I like the thought of putting an Assassin in a unit to act as a character bodyguard...I might very well do that for my Grey Seer!

Speaking of the Grey Seer, I like your proposed build for him as well. It makes him an incredibly powerful spellcaster, and Skalm seems pretty much mandatory. I like it, and I think it's a build I might just end up going for. I like the picture of the Grey Seer hungrily snorting or nibbling on chunks/powdered warpstone while frantically casting green bolts of death and so on...too cool. Thanks!

Lupercus

Tarian
09-10-2010, 05:15
Well, I put the Razor Standard on my Vermin, to give 'em a little more "oomph" against armor.

Lupercus
09-10-2010, 05:21
I really like that too, Tarian, and that's actually something I've been thinking of as well. That -2 to enemy armour saves really does make a big difference, and turns the Stormvermin into much more efficient killing machines, which is something you really can't argue with. In the end I have a feeling I'll end up biting the bullet and equipping my BSB with the Storm Banner(as it really does seem to be that useful to a Skaven army), and doing as russellmoo suggested and hiding an Assassin in his unit to give him a little added protection against anything nasty enough to threaten him(which happens to be a lot of stuff...). It's also a good excuse to use an Assassin, which is something I've been wanting to do;)

The Razor Standard will almost certainly end up on my Stormvermin regiment. It's always nice to see your Skaven actually killing things every now and then!

Lupercus

russellmoo
09-10-2010, 05:41
My BSB currently is run with this- enchanted shield, dawnstone, - or somethimes I go with Talisman of preservation, and a halberd-

The first one gives you a 3+ re-rollable sv- making it unlikely that rank and file models will be able to take him down- the other is better if you think your BSB might be left by himself- as the 4+ ward protects against everything-

For the assassin- a warlock augmented weapon is a good choice- or potion of strength, plus sword of anti-heroes- if there is a lord and a hero in the unit this proves particularly devastating- you can potentially have 5 str 9 ASF attacks- against a single hero- 4 str 8 ASF attacks-

Lupercus
09-10-2010, 05:53
Very nice call on the Assassin, russellmoo. At first I was thinking of just running him bare bones, especially if he was just on BSB protection duties, but the more I think about it, the more I think I'll want him to be as nasty as possible. He's expensive to begin with, so it's probably best to make him worth while, and able to potentially take out the enemy character threatening my Rats.

The problem with the Potion, as has been brought to my attention, is that it must be drunk at the start of a player turn, which means he can't just swig it back as he jumps out to do his thing. That said, it's still useful, I think...he can just drink it when he knows there's a good chance the unit is going to be charged, or at the next start of turn involving the combat....either way, it can definitely still work. I like the Sword of Anti-Heroes idea...that might just be the ticket. Of course, if I wanted to just go for simplicity, the Warlock Augmented Weapon would do the trick...either way, I'm fitting in an Assassin:) Thanks again, russellmoo.

Lupercus

CauCaSus
09-10-2010, 08:03
The problem with the Potion, as has been brought to my attention, is that it must be drunk at the start of a player turn, which means he can't just swig it back as he jumps out to do his thing.

Yes he can. But only if you reveal him at the start of your turn instead of in a close combat phase.

scarvet
09-10-2010, 11:57
My Grey Seer on have Power Scroll, Talisman of Preservation and potion of toughness.

But I think he cost too much and wonder what other combo would let him survive at least one round of combat.

decker_cky
09-10-2010, 19:26
BSB with world's edge armour, opal amulet, biting blade and shield. About as resilient as is possible for a skaven BSB.

Lupercus
09-10-2010, 19:49
Very nice, thanks for the great BSB build, decker_cky, I really like it. I agree, it looks to me as about as survivable as a Chieftain Battle Standard can possibly get, even with a little added close combat effectiveness in the form of a Biting Blade.

Out of curiosity, what and how many characters am I likely to be looking at for a typical 2000 point Skaven list? I'm looking at trying to fit in a Warlord and a Grey Seer on foot both into the 2000 point list, along with a BSB and....well, that's rather up in the air at the moment. Thoughts?

Lupercus

scarvet
09-10-2010, 20:18
Throw in a few engineer with Orb/Rocket and you are set.

BSB with world's edge armour, opal amulet, biting blade and shield. About as resilient as is possible for a skaven BSB.
What about a Charmed shield instead of Biting Blade? It may burn by a regular model but also minimize the chance of opal amulet burn before a character fight?

Kirasu
09-10-2010, 21:08
Blade of corruption + other tricksters shard is a much more superior assassin build than warlock augmented blade. S5 and you do 2 wounds per wound + reroll successful ward saves = you actually kill characters. Combo that with a razor standard and you're at -3 to saves

Weeping blade and potion of strength is decent too but a one trick pony.

decker_cky
09-10-2010, 21:37
Throw in a few engineer with Orb/Rocket and you are set.

What about a Charmed shield instead of Biting Blade? It may burn by a regular model but also minimize the chance of opal amulet burn before a character fight?

I like worlds edge armour better (can't take 2 magic armours). Saves you from a high strength attack, a killing blow attack, or even from a bad dweller'ssroll as per the skaven FAQ.

Also, I'm pretty sure that after the world's edge armour crumbles, he still has heavy armour, meaning he keeps a 4+ armour save (heavy armour is basic equipment).

scarvet
09-10-2010, 21:56
Ooops, forgot world's edge ain't scavenge pile :p

Heavy armour may not stay since the related question was removed in the 8th ed FAQ...But he is either dead or dead :D

enygma7
09-10-2010, 22:12
Blade of corruption + other tricksters shard is a much more superior assassin build than warlock augmented blade. S5 and you do 2 wounds per wound + reroll successful ward saves = you actually kill characters. Combo that with a razor standard and you're at -3 to saves

Weeping blade and potion of strength is decent too but a one trick pony.

Seconded, I use this build and I've never regretted including this assassin in my army. Not only does he do well against characters, he's great for challenging and using his multiple wound ability to stack up combat res, downing monstrous infantry, killing chariots and even putting the pain on the odd monster he meets. S5 is also pretty good against armoured targets.

For grey seer on foot I use a 4+ ward and staff of sorcery (rules in the WFB FAQ) for good resilience and a pretty good shot at limiting my opponents magic phase, especially if they don't have a lord.

BSB should have protective gear, I go for warpstone armour and shield to discourage people attacking him.

russellmoo
10-10-2010, 03:09
So, I've decided to include the sword of anti-heroes, mainly for this one reason- I played against an empire list that featured 9 captains in the front of the unit- Plus, lately, I'm seeing Bret builds with 3 Paladins, or 2 Paladins, and a Lord in the front rank- so granted the Blade of Corruption is more versatile- but lately I've been thinking that the Sword of Anti-heroes could be potentially devastating-

But- furthering the thought- what would happen if a Skaven player put 2 assassins in one unit- would this be too much, or a potentially devastating deathstar unit-

thechosenone
10-10-2010, 03:52
I do earthing rod, bell and warp tokens on my grey seer.

For my cheiftain i run Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat because i like to mess with leadership. Storm Banner i mostly skip in favor of just casting warpgale.

My assassin at the moment is weeping blade and trickster shard but that may change to blade of corruption.

Tarian
10-10-2010, 05:30
But why use Warpgale when you can use Banner AND Warpgale? :3

Orangecoke
10-10-2010, 15:58
For my 2000 list I run

Seer on bell with skalm
Chieftain in another unit, bsb with shield and maybe a talisman of prot depending on points
Plague priest on foot, lvl 2, in a unit (for more magic oomph)
a warlock with doom rocket by himself

So far this setup has been very strong vs lizard,en/slaan (pretty much all my opponent plays). By the way I ditched storm banner because it interferes with my warp fire throwers which is unacceptable (they rock!).

Tarian
10-10-2010, 16:49
Well, the thing I like about the Storm Banner is I can choose to activate it. Facing Empire/Dwarven Gunline o' Doom (TM)? Pop it off. Facing a pure Treemonic Legion Army? Wasted some points, but hey, could've been much worse.

thechosenone
11-10-2010, 00:02
my meta is very gunline light so i try and skip storm banner in favor of razor standard for storm vermin and sacred standard for the bsb. Tourny play, bring a storm banner

russellmoo
11-10-2010, 02:49
I tend to field the stormbanner as the only shooting I have comes from warpfire throwers, and doomwheels- so nothing I need or want to shoot on the first or sometimes second turn- so some games it saves me having to make restraint checks-

scarvet
11-10-2010, 06:06
But- furthering the thought- what would happen if a Skaven player put 2 assassins in one unit- would this be too much, or a potentially devastating deathstar unit-
Sadly Assassins are too expensive to begin with (thanks to 4++ that even DE one can't get), lack of killy enhanced item beyond potion of strength and mere WS6.

If you can't get a Warlord to hold a Blade of Corruption than an Assassin is the next best thing you have.

Lupercus
11-10-2010, 23:28
Very very nice! I love the Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat...a lot. I like messing with enemy Ld as well, as a lot of important situations come down to Ld tests, and these can obviously result in victory for the mighty Skaven hordes, or miserable, musk of fear-laced defeat. I can see myself making use of the Sacred Standard for sure as well.

I do like your point about the Storm Banner and the use of Warpfire Throwers and Doomwheels, russellmoo. It makes perfect sense, as typically it's best to not worry about firing a Warpfire Thrower too early on anyway...you want those potentially risky shots to be worthwhile.

I'm looking for a solid Plague Priest builds now as well. Both for Plague Priests on foot, and also mounted on a Plague Furnace.

Lupercus

cobra0
12-10-2010, 10:18
It says in the Army Book (roughly), *The Chieftain may be the BSB, and have a Magic Banner, but no other magic items.*
Is it legal to give him a magic banner and plenty of Scavenge Pile items? Is there a point limit in this case?

For example
Chieftain 45p
BSB 25p
Storm Banner 50p
Rathound Bodyguard 5p
Poisoned Attacks 15p
Tail Weapon 8p

That Rat can hold its own in H2H (5 attacks, 4 are toxic), but is it legal?

Would adding a Warplock Pistol (8p) give him a 6th H2H Attack, as it is an additional HW?
Or just the shooting?

thechosenone
13-10-2010, 02:16
Scavenge pile is legit for picking i believe. My own personal preference is not for Storm banner. If you really want it i suggest putting it on storm vermin but to each their own. Its a fine Bsb.

cobra0
25-10-2010, 12:12
What banner would you put on a BSB (As it is the only Magic Banner allowed in my army)?

Under "Banner of the Under- Empire" it says: "... in base contact with the unit bearing this banner ..."
Would that mean the BSB himself, or the Unit the BSB is hiding in?

Tarian
25-10-2010, 13:04
Stormvermin can take a banner, so I give them Razor, and give the BSB the Stormbanner.

Rhellion
25-10-2010, 14:36
Grey Seer on a Bell + BSB with Banner of Discipline worked well for me this weekend at 'Ard Boyz. 18" LD8 from large target General +1 Leadership.

Orangecoke
25-10-2010, 18:33
Sounds like a solid combo, Rhellion!

russellmoo
25-10-2010, 23:10
Grey Seer on a Bell + BSB with Banner of Discipline worked well for me this weekend at 'Ard Boyz. 18" LD8 from large target General +1 Leadership.

"Models in a unit with the Standard of Discipline have +1 Leadership . . . " pg 175 of Rulebook.

This banner would effectively do nothing for you since the unit pushing the bell is unbreakable.

"but cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence special rule." pg 175 id.
Inspiring presence rule- "all friendly units within 12" use his leadership instead of their own. . . " pg. 107.

Sorry, to rain on the parade. This build has no effect as the unit which had its LD boosted is unbreakable. No other units would benefit from the +1 LD as it ups the LD of the unit and not the Grey Seer.

A build that would take advantage of the Standard of Discipline would be-
30+ stormvermin, warlord (who is not the general) in the unit- this one unit would have LD 8 plus SiN.

Tarian
26-10-2010, 02:58
The Grey Seer is a part of the unit, and they FAQ'd it so that it applies to the General.


Q: If the General is in a unit with the Standard of Discipline will
he gain +1 Leadership and then be able to pass it onto his unit
(because he is in it) as well as other units in range of the Inspiring
Presence special rule? (Reference)
A: Yes.

Wargamejunkie
26-10-2010, 15:09
I don't see the point of giving the unit the +1 Leadership as the Grey Seer is already broadcasting LD7.

Edit:
Forgot to mention set up.

Grey Seer
4+ Ward, Dispel Scroll

BSB
Stormbanner, Halberd- Hides in 2nd rank due to General in Warlitter.

Orangecoke
26-10-2010, 18:36
I loke LD8 better than LD7 :)

Bobofreak
26-10-2010, 18:41
Exactly the unit he is in is not affected but they are unbreakable so who cares. Now the Grey Seer has a 18" presence of LD 8 rather then 7 so 15 slaves are now LD10 within 18" of the general.

TheDrugLordX
26-10-2010, 19:07
Here's how I run all my characters (currently):

Warlord - 228
General
Armour of Destiny, The Other Trickster Shard, Blade of corruption
Warlitter, Shield

Grey Seer - 340
Power Scroll, Potion of Toughness, Talisman of Preservation

Warlock Engineer - 45
Doom Rocket

Warlock Engineer - 15

Chieften - 122
Battle Standard Bearer
Storm Banner
Shield

The warlord is so powerful (and reasonable cheap) he's always worth it over the screaming bell, unless running 3000pts games where i can field both.

I'm actually not very keen on protective gear on my characters, keeping them cheap and simple usually fares better for me. But as I tend to go RAMBO with my seer. Skitterleaping him out to a good position and then power scrolling Cracks Call removing a whole warmachine gun line is just game breaking. The Potion and 4+ward keeps him alive for next turn of shooting and magical mssiles after which he can skitterleap to safety (or maybe just run behind a building). Power Scroll is just nuts with the 13th spell against some armies whom don't run gunlines.

I tend to give my stormvermin other, better, standards (mostly +1LD, invaluable for skaven) and thus my BSB ends up with the insane Storm Banner. I wouldn't give him protection even if he didn't carry it - you want those re-rolls by most the first 2-3 turns, after that he's pretty much expendable.

Talking about expendable, the engineers are the cheapest most effective tactical units there is. Run out of your units and force your opponent to make some really awkward moves his next turn. Simply gamebreaking.

russellmoo
28-10-2010, 07:54
The Grey Seer is a part of the unit, and they FAQ'd it so that it applies to the General.

Read the FAQ answer-

So when they answer these FAQ's they apparently don't even read their own rulebook. Answering the question is not the proper solution here as the answer directly contradicts the items description- they should have placed a correction to the rulebook under the magic item-

I mean seriously, why would you place such a specific restriction such as when using this item units cannot use inspiring presence then in a FAQ state that the inspiring presence can be used with this item- my only guess is- bi-polarity or schizophrenia- maybe multiple personality disorder-

Still any type of magic banner on a BSB is just asking for your opponent to kill your BSB-

I guess the real question is- Has anyone been having trouble making leadership tests with their skaven?

Personally my skaven have been more resilient and less prone to panic then my base LD 9 dwarfs-

Tarian
28-10-2010, 13:43
It's because the unit the General is with is not using his Inspiring Presence, it's using *his* leadership. The banner prevents a unit from benefiting from Inspiring Presence, i.e. if a unit has the banner, and is in General range, but not with the general, then they do not get IP, but that does not prevent the General, when with the banner, from *giving* IP.

Esco Thomson
28-10-2010, 13:58
Grey Seer
- Screaming Bell
- Skalm
- Dispel Scroll
- 3 x Warpstone Tokens

Chieftain BSB
- Charmed Shield
- Talisman of Preservation

Rhellion's setup is quite solid though, and worked well. I'm just too worried about losing my BSB, so I always opt for survival.

Tarian
28-10-2010, 14:11
I give my BSB a shield and the Storm Banner and hide him with the Seer in the Bell unit. I figure if anything big and gribbly gets to my bell, it's pretty much GG anyways, as that means they've munched down over 150 rats already, and are still strong enough to threaten the Bell unit.

Rhellion
28-10-2010, 15:40
Rhellion's setup is quite solid though, and worked well. I'm just too worried about losing my BSB, so I always opt for survival.

With enough Warlock Engineers you can hide the BSB where you like! :D

Esco Thomson
28-10-2010, 17:55
With enough Warlock Engineers you can hide the BSB where you like! :D

I am always overcompensating for the one game that I got Lore of Death Sniped.

The lovely 2+ ward from Talisman and Bell's MR(2) makes Jack a less dull boy.

I run only 2 wide with Bell, so with Full Command and the Warlock he stays out of combat most games, but he makes so much difference in my games, got to keep him alive!

Orangecoke
28-10-2010, 19:17
Read the FAQ answer-

So when they answer these FAQ's they apparently don't even read their own rulebook. Answering the question is not the proper solution here as the answer directly contradicts the items description- they should have placed a correction to the rulebook under the magic item-

I mean seriously, why would you place such a specific restriction such as when using this item units cannot use inspiring presence then in a FAQ state that the inspiring presence can be used with this item- my only guess is- bi-polarity or schizophrenia- maybe multiple personality disorder-

Still any type of magic banner on a BSB is just asking for your opponent to kill your BSB-

I guess the real question is- Has anyone been having trouble making leadership tests with their skaven?

Personally my skaven have been more resilient and less prone to panic then my base LD 9 dwarfs-


Bingo (on how it works).

I've had the occassional problem making tests, but usually only after a unit has taken many ranks of losses and is hit with a panic check or something.

vorthain
28-10-2010, 19:57
I have been toying with the idea of a vanilla Grey Seer on foot and a BSB with halberd and Ruby Ring of Ruin in smaller battles (1250-1500).

KronusDaSneaky
31-10-2010, 00:47
Many of the combos I use have already been discussed but I will raise one that has not been mentioned overly namely,

Chieftain: Standard of Discipline, Enchanted Shield, Foul Pendant

Or what I call the super leadership bunker chieftain. With a 3+ AS, 5+ Ward and a banner that increases your generals leadership rating to 8 (assuming your taking a warlord or a Grey Seer and they are sensibly attached to the same unit) which applies equally to inspiring presence (18" ld 8 bubble anyone) and allows you rerolls too. With strength in numbers this isn't perhaps necessary but 15pts for +1 ld in an army such as skaven its nothing to sniff at

Its even better when you want to have queek in your army but would rather he wasn't the general which normally would be the case since he alone has LD 8. A warlord/Seer in a unit with this banner would count as having ld 8 too (if modified but the rules don't expressly state this is not allowed), allowing them to be your general designate while Queek and his super stormvermin can do as intended without worrying about losing his head overly.

eyescrossed
31-10-2010, 00:56
Uhh... I thought you couldn't take Magic Items if you take a Magic Banner...

KronusDaSneaky
31-10-2010, 01:03
Uhh... I thought you couldn't take Magic Items if you take a Magic Banner...

LOL so he does (just reread army book and wondering how I missed it), I think I am so used to taking 45-50pt banners (storm banner or the razor standard)I merely assumed that it counted against his quota of magic items effectively leaving them naked 90% of the time. I see I have been playing this wrong all month (started using the standard of discipline three weekends ago), should have read the small print (its not that small, must have been blind) more closely. Well in any case the standard of discipline remains an effective choice buffed or otherwise Its a pity he is limited to a measley 15ptsof magic item/s this way though (rather then the usual 50), that build was a nice one. Might see if I can get it added to my clubs house rules ...

eyescrossed
31-10-2010, 01:35
Don't houserule it... It's not fluffy or anything, it's just a powerful build not allowed by the rules. Might as well houserule no limit on Magic Item points.