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LAV-Kitsune-
09-10-2010, 10:06
FAQ says that:

Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic,
give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells,
characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, unless the description of the item or spell specifically
says otherwise.

Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic, give the
bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests,
etc)? (p4)
A: No.

So what happens if for example halberdiers are buffed with Enchanted blades of Aiban or Flaming sword of Rhuin? Do they get +1 to survive against Dwellers from below as their attacks are magical or does it not help them at all? It indicates that magic item or spell bonus affects the bonus and both of mentioned spells make weapons magical, magic weapons and the effect comes from spell. Should it work as a protection against dwellers?

gunsmoke
09-10-2010, 12:25
No, magical attacks does not mean a mundane weapon is magical.

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 15:15
Flaming Sword of Rhuin doesn't do anything here, as it doesn't modify your Strength characteristic. If it did, then you could benefit from it when taking a characteristic test, as it is a spell and not a weapon.

Both mundane and magic weapons that give you bonuses (or negative modifiers) to your Strength characteristic do not affect characteristic tests.

Other magic items, spells or abilities that give you bonuses (or negative modifiers) to your Strength characteristic do affect characteristic tests.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 18:39
Flaming Sword of Rhuin doesn't do anything here, as it doesn't modify your Strength characteristic. If it did, then you could benefit from it when taking a characteristic test, as it is a spell and not a weapon.

Both mundane and magic weapons that give you bonuses (or negative modifiers) to your Strength characteristic do not affect characteristic tests.

Other magic items, spells or abilities that give you bonuses (or negative modifiers) to your Strength characteristic do affect characteristic tests.

Not exactly , I agree with the part about mundane weapons but not about the magic weapons.

A magic weapon that gives a modifier will affect characteristic tests. Unless the description specifies otherwise.

To be fair though none of the weapons in the BRB affect characteristic tests except Sword of Anti-Heros. Which would only happen if a Str test was made during the close combat phase. Though I'm sure that there are some AB specific weapons out there that would qualify.

Korraz
09-10-2010, 18:48
It will not affect the test.



Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic, give the
bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests,
etc)? (p4)
A: No.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 20:39
While I don't dispute your quote. That quote is in reference to mundane weapons(great weapons, halberds, etc.). A magic weapon is a magic item and would fall under the quote previous to the one you listed that covered by magic items.

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 20:50
While I don't dispute your quote. That quote is in reference to mundane weapons(great weapons, halberds, etc.). A magic weapon is a magic item and would fall under the quote previous to the one you listed that covered by magic items.

How is it in reference to mundane weapons? I don't see the word mundane anywhere. A magic weapon is a weapon. Although it is also a magic item, the FAQ that declares that weapons don't affect characteristic tests supersedes the other FAQ.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 20:54
Mundane is the default it would have to specifically say magic to apply to magic weapons.

Otherwise you have a direct conflict between two FAQ Q&A's.

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:00
Mundane is the default it would have to specifically say magic to apply to magic weapons.

Otherwise you have a direct conflict between two FAQ Q&A's.

I disagree. As you think the FAQ was probably referring to just mundane weapons, it could've also been referring to both, and the other FAQ could've been referring to things like armour and enchanted items that increase stats. Another thing to note is that you use a magic weapon, but other magic items are constant. For example, you either use a magic hammer that gives you +2 Strength, or you don't and thus don't benefit from +2 Strength. A piece of Magic Armour, Enchanted Item or Talisman, on the other hand, is constant.

The rule is probably intended to point out that these weapons you use that give bonuses to attacks when striking don't also let you benefit from characteristic tests, just like mundane weapons wouldn't either. It's not an actual boost to your stat, but to your attack. Even if you bring up wording, the wording of mundane weapons is always "+2 to Strength," and obviously that isn't the case considering a S4 model armed with a great weapon won't take a Strength Test using S6.

Reading back over what I just typed, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone who is going to read it. It makes sense to me, I'm just having trouble wording it. :mad:

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 21:10
I understand your post.

Here's the thing. A magic weapon is a magic item. Which qualifies it for the first quote. But realize it isn't game breaking.

Read the entire quote and then take a gander at the actual Magic Weapons in the rulebook. You'll see that the descriptions are very specific as to when the characteristic modifiers are granted. In almost all cases the strength bonuses (for example) are granted only when making attacks in close combat.

The only item in BRB that actually would allow you to make a characteristic test at a higher value would be the Sword of Anti-Heros and only if said test is during the Close Combat Phase.

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:16
Read the entire quote and then take a gander at the actual Magic Weapons in the rulebook. You'll see that the descriptions are very specific as to when the characteristic modifiers are granted. In almost all cases the strength bonuses (for example) are granted only when making attacks in close combat.
.

There are still alot of weapons in AB's that say things like "+3 Strength" and stuff like that. I believe they're considered to be weaopns, as they are used as weapons to strike the enemy during Close Combat. I think the FAQ covers this, as it doesn't say "mundane weapons." I think they wanted to steer clear of weapons of any kind having effects on things like characteristic tests, and I'd think, if anything, magic weapons would be more of a reason to include that FAQ than mundane weapons, as magic weapons often give greater stat bonuses than mundane weapons.

*Shrug* I suppose you could debate it, but I think "weapons" is the wording we should really be looking at. If you classify a "magic weapon" as a weapon, then it's a done deal. If you don't, then it's up in the air.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 21:21
I'm not debating i'm just choosing the option that doesn't force a direct contradiction of the two faq's.

If you think that magic weapons should fall under both magic items and weapons how do you resolve that contradiction?

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:24
I'm not debating i'm just choosing the option that doesn't force a direct contradiction of the two faq's.

If you think that magic weapons should fall under both magic items and weapons how do you resolve that contradiction?

The thing is, if you define magic weapons as both weapons and magic items, there's a contradiction right there as well. No matter what, there's a contradiction. Either we're saying that magic weapons don't help characteristic tests but are also magic items, or we're saying magic weapons help characteristic tests but are no longer weapons.

I'd say a magic weapon being a weapon is the more clear translation out of the two, as when the term "magic items" was used in the second FAQ, it could've (and most likely was) referring to stat improvements due to pieces of Magic Armour, Enchanted Items, etc.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 21:31
Magic Items are divided into six categories : Magic Weapons, Magic Armour, Talismans, Enchanted Items, Arcane Items and Magic Standards. (pg 172 LRB)

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:34
Magic Items are divided into six categories : Magic Weapons, Magic Armour, Talismans, Enchanted Items, Arcane Items and Magic Standards. (pg 172 LRB)

I know this.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 21:35
Then what are we babbling about then?

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:37
Then what are we babbling about then?

The debate on whether or not "weapons," as mentioned in the FAQ, includes magic weapons.

Yrrdead
09-10-2010, 21:44
Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic , give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, unless the description of the item or spell specifically says otherwise.


Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic, give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)?(p4)
A: No.

These are one after another in the FAQ.

A magic weapon is a magic item.

weapon != magic weapon

Now even if we say "screw it" weapon means magic weapon as well. Then how do you reconcile the above quotes?

You're saying that a magic weapon is a magic item and a weapon. And then you are saying ignore the first quote only apply the second. That doesn't work.

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:48
You're saying that a magic weapon is a magic item and a weapon. And then you are saying ignore the first quote only apply the second. That doesn't work.

I'm not saying "ignore this and do this." I'm saying it was probably their intention, just doesn't have the best wording. I am saying that magic weapons are both magic items and weapons, yes. This is why GW was clear to put "sometimes there will be obvious contradictions in rules. When this happens, be nice and figure it out with your opponent." Do what you want, broseph.

ChrisIronBrow
09-10-2010, 21:49
I have to say, I agree with Yrrdead on this. There is a long set precident that magic equipment uses different rules than mundane, and that all rules apply to mundane equipment only, unless otherwise specified. Which is why you have had magic bows shooting mundane arrows and the like. Either way, if you read it the other way, there is a clear conflict in the FAQ, which would ultimately invalidate both answers.

Tykinkuula
10-10-2010, 00:27
So magic weapon is not a weapon? Reeeeeeally now...


Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic , give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, unless the description of the item or spell specifically says otherwise.

Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic, give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)?(p4)
A: No.


Notice the majority of the first answer; "unless the description of the item specifically says otherwise"
Now, page 501 tells us that


Unless stated otherwise, a magic weapon is a hand weapon, and follows rules for such...
So magic weapons are hand weapons and follow their rules with some exceptions irrelevant ot the topic at hand. Hand weapons are weapons. What does the second FAQ question tell us about weapons?

I have to disagree with Yrrdead. On many, many levels.

jamano
10-10-2010, 01:31
the rules for hand weapons are not the description of an item.(which is the magic weapon in this case) The description of the item is what it does.

Yrrdead
10-10-2010, 02:44
And the descriptions for items ,in the case of magic weapons, usually don't allow you to use the bonus for characteristic tests.

Ex:
Giant Blade - Close combat attacks made with this sword are resolved at +3 Strength.

Tykinkuula
10-10-2010, 08:43
the rules for hand weapons are not the description of an item.(which is the magic weapon in this case) The description of the item is what it does.

The rules of a magic weapon includes the rules of hand weapon by default. The description is, as you said, what the item does. In other word, its rules.

All weapons aren't magic weapons, yes, but all magic weapons are weapons.


And the descriptions for items ,in the case of magic weapons, usually don't allow you to use the bonus for characteristic tests.

Ex:
Giant Blade - Close combat attacks made with this sword are resolved at +3 Strength.
Ever heard of older army books?

You chose to claim that for incompherensible reasons, magic weapon is not a weapon and therefore there's not conflict. I say that for reasons laid out above, there was no conflict in the first place. Care to make an actual counter-argument?

Yrrdead
10-10-2010, 09:53
I'm not sure what your argument is. If you could restate it I would very much appreciate it.

As an aside I feel like your post is very hostile towards me though that could just be a factor of language differences and/or the interwebs. Have I inadvertently offended you some how?

Chris_
10-10-2010, 10:23
I think his argument is that Magic Weapon = Magic Item AND Weapon

Tykinkuula
10-10-2010, 13:10
I'm not sure what your argument is. If you could restate it I would very much appreciate it.

As an aside I feel like your post is very hostile towards me though that could just be a factor of language differences and/or the interwebs. Have I inadvertently offended you some how?

I really didn't mean it to sound like that. Sorry if I managed to offend you.

I'll try to lay it out clearer.


Item description is what the item does.
Item does what it's rules tells us it does.
Therefore, item description is equivalent of items rules.

All magic weapons are hand weapons by default.
Hand weapons are weapons.
Therefore magic weapons are weapons.

Magic items FAQ says they grant the bonus for all rules purposes unless their description (rules) state otherwise.
All rules of hand weapons apply to magic weapons unless otherwise stated.
Weapon stat bonus question says weapon stat bonuses apply only to attacks.

Therefore, as every magic weapon is a weapon, all of their rules/description by default includes the part about them only confering bonuses to attacks made, thus fulfilling the "unless otherwise stated" part of the magic item FAQ.

Therefore, magic weapons do not, in most cases, confer their bonuses for all rules purposes.


Even if they are listed in one of the older army books.

Ethos
10-10-2010, 14:39
Good show. Good show.

Kevlar
10-10-2010, 15:55
Fellblade. Bearer is str 10.

Not "close combat attacks made by the bearer are str 10".

So it would work on dwellers.

Most of the generic items only affect close combat attacks and do not modify the bearers str statistic.

SiNNiX
10-10-2010, 16:29
Fellblade. Bearer is str 10.

Not "close combat attacks made by the bearer are str 10".

So it would work on dwellers.

Most of the generic items only affect close combat attacks and do not modify the bearers str statistic.

This is the thing that GW is trying to phase out, as it's not intended.

DeathlessDraich
10-10-2010, 16:45
FAQ says that:

Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic,
give the bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells,
characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, unless the description of the item or spell specifically
says otherwise.

Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic, give the
bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests,
etc)? (p4)
A: No.

So what happens if for example halberdiers are buffed with Enchanted blades of Aiban or Flaming sword of Rhuin? Do they get +1 to survive against Dwellers from below as their attacks are magical or does it not help them at all? It indicates that magic item or spell bonus affects the bonus and both of mentioned spells make weapons magical, magic weapons and the effect comes from spell. Should it work as a protection against dwellers?

A pertinent question and you've correctly outlined the contradictory nature of those 2 woefully inadequate FAQs.

1) The usage of the word 'characteristic' is poor as it does not clearly state that it refers to the initial or unmodified model characteristic statistic taken from their table of characteristics ONLY


2) The phrase in the question "for all rules purposes": The significance of the word "all" has not been understood by the person answering that FAQ.
"All" means "ALL" - i.e. includes combat, shooting etc etc.
Therefore the second FAQ answer is abjectly meaningless since it implies that the bonus is given but has no effect for "all rules purposes".

3) The 2 FAQs fail to address the consequence of characteristic enhancement by combining the magic/item with non magical or non mundane means e.g. through special rules (Inner Circle, Bigun, Ogre GiantKiller, Slayer. etc etc)


My suggestion ignore FAQ 2 and interpret FAQ 1 as
"When a magic item or spell/ special rules changes a characteristic without reference to a weapon, the change is maintained in characteristic tests and other rules unless otherwise specified."

Hope Ive got this right - it may need a little tweaking:)

Korraz
10-10-2010, 17:07
1) The usage of the word 'characteristic' is poor as it does not clearly state that it refers to the initial or unmodified model characteristic statistic taken from their table of characteristics ONLY

How is this not clear? You always use the current stat.


2) The phrase in the question "for all rules purposes": The significance of the word "all" has not been understood by the person answering that FAQ.
"All" means "ALL" - i.e. includes combat, shooting etc etc.
Therefore the second FAQ answer is abjectly meaningless since it implies that the bonus is given but has no effect for "all rules purposes".

Try to read it like this:
"Does my magical Stick make me stronger for EVERYTHING and not only for hitting Goblins?"


3) The 2 FAQs fail to address the consequence of characteristic enhancement by combining the magic/item with non magical or non mundane means e.g. through special rules (Inner Circle, Bigun, Ogre GiantKiller, Slayer. etc etc)

All of these produce a new model with a different statline. Not a problem there.


It's Warseer...

Kevlar
10-10-2010, 19:37
This is the thing that GW is trying to phase out, as it's not intended.

I think it is intended as two skaven swords, blade of corruption and dwarfbane add strength only to close combat attacks, while two others, the fell blade and the warlock augmented weapon both raise the bearers strength profile directly. Guess which two are the more expensive.

AMWOOD co
11-10-2010, 02:34
I would have to throw my vote in with the camp saying magic weapons will not benefit characteristic tests. It makes sense and thus solves the situation. I would like it to be the other way, but it doesn't match the relevent information.

Also, here's the Daemonswordfrom Warriors:


A character with the Daemonsword adds D3 to his Strength and has an extra D6 attacks, to a maximum of 10 (roll separately for these values at the start of each round).

The rest is the hit yourself on a 1, but do you note the section in parentheses? It doesn't explicitly state that the bonus applies only in combat, but the section in parentheses implies it very strongly. That the bonus only applies to combat seems the only way to reconcile this.

SiNNiX
11-10-2010, 02:44
I would have to throw my vote in with the camp saying magic weapons will not benefit characteristic tests. It makes sense and thus solves the situation. I would like it to be the other way, but it doesn't match the relevent information.

Also, here's the Daemonswordfrom Warriors:


The rest is the hit yourself on a 1, but do you note the section in parentheses? It doesn't explicitly state that the bonus applies only in combat, but the section in parentheses implies it very strongly. That the bonus only applies to combat seems the only way to reconcile this.

AMWOOD, I am very impressed. I didn't notice that, and this very strongly boosts that side of the argument.

Awesome show great job!

LAV-Kitsune-
11-10-2010, 10:57
Thanks for all the replies. It became quite a debate and I am happy to inform you that I also got reply from GW as I send same question to them. Answer was as follows:
"We don't know how to reply to that question. You should ask your local GW store, as they are only too happy to help"
So I asked...
"Hmm, a tough question. You should use the most important rule"
So problem solved, thanks everyone =)

Joking aside I think last few comments prove that +1S or similar weapons do not provide that bonus to stat spells even if enchanted and mage magical.

SiNNiX
11-10-2010, 13:07
Thanks for all the replies. It became quite a debate and I am happy to inform you that I also got reply from GW as I send same question to them. Answer was as follows:
"We don't know how to reply to that question. You should ask your local GW store, as they are only too happy to help"
So I asked...
"Hmm, a tough question. You should use the most important rule"
So problem solved, thanks everyone =)

Joking aside I think last few comments prove that +1S or similar weapons do not provide that bonus to stat spells even if enchanted and mage magical.

Typical GW answers, but I would have to agree. The ruling isn't solid as there are contradicting FAQ's, but the intent seems very clear. As long as you and your opponent aren't fighting over it, it's all good in the hood.

Ethos
11-10-2010, 17:19
NEW FAQ's!!!

Thundergod
11-10-2010, 17:59
yay all solved. well, this one is all solved. . .
Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic,
do so bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells,
characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of
the item or spell specifically says otherwise.
Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give
that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Yes, including magic weapons unless specifically stated
otherwise.

TheDarkDaff
11-10-2010, 22:48
yay all solved. well, this one is all solved. . .
Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic,
do so bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells,
characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of
the item or spell specifically says otherwise.
Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give
that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Yes, including magic weapons unless specifically stated
otherwise.

Now you have another little issue (although this is entirely pedantic) that can grop up. I don't have the RBRB in front of me but i seem to remember a number of weapons that boost the I value. Now when you work out the order of attack you are not yet allowed to use the weapon to boost you I value.

Of course this isn't how it should be played but it is what the FAQ very technically says.:angel:

Chris_
11-10-2010, 23:17
Well, I wouldn't argue that to any lengths as it only says when you attack a model, who's to say that you haven't started attacking it when it is their turn in the close combat phase?

SiNNiX
11-10-2010, 23:26
It could just be FAQ'd to say something to the effect of "magic weapons modify characteristics for all rules purposes only when being used in close combat." Obviously the wording would be much better, but I don't have time and you get the idea.