PDA

View Full Version : In Game Quesiton:



DaemonReign
09-10-2010, 21:26
What happens when you use the spell Whaagh with Warmachines in 8th Ed?

Since screw can't leave their gear in 8th Ed (mere woundcounters), do one move the entire contraption or move nothing at all?

SiNNiX
09-10-2010, 21:31
Don't have my O&G book with me, but I'm fairly certain that Waaagh! affects all O&G units, not just specific unit types.

Not even sure if that was your question, DaemonReign. Your typing seems to be a little inebriated today.

ChrisIronBrow
09-10-2010, 21:32
What happens when you use the spell Whaagh with Warmachines in 8th Ed?

Since screw can't leave their gear in 8th Ed (mere woundcounters), do one move the entire contraption or move nothing at all?

Sadly it's not addressed. However, It seems most likely that they not move, as the part in waagh about them moving is a "reminder" and not neccessarily a hard rule. it looks like this is one more casualty of the 7th to 8th transfer.

DaemonReign
09-10-2010, 23:12
Don't have my O&G book with me, but I'm fairly certain that Waaagh! affects all O&G units, not just specific unit types.

Not even sure if that was your question, DaemonReign. Your typing seems to be a little inebriated today.

I was judging in a 4,5k battle orcs vs dwarves.

My question was: Since Whaagh (indeed) effects ALL units in the O&G army, what happens to warmachines when crew can no longer leave their machine (as they Could do in 7th ed).

As stated by ChristBow-something, there doesn't seem to be an absolute Rule for this anymore (with transition from 7th to 8th) - we looked through the Errata and I thought I could throw a last bet on someone on Warseer Knowing wtf.

Chris_
09-10-2010, 23:29
This has been argued before. I would rule it as you move the whole WM forward. There is nothing in the FAQ and no clear rules on the whole thing.

ChrisIronBrow
10-10-2010, 05:10
This has been argued before. I would rule it as you move the whole WM forward. There is nothing in the FAQ and no clear rules on the whole thing.

Yeah, it can go either way really. Most likely this is the most accurate answer honestly. since AB trumps BRB and brb says warmachines can't move. so you probably charge warmachines forwards...

which creates a bizarre situation whereby you may charge a warmachine into combat...

Chris_
10-10-2010, 05:56
Well, actually WM can move, they can't charge however and the crew can't leave the WM.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 08:23
The spell says war machine crews abandon their machine.
So that's what they'll do.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 08:39
The spell says war machine crews abandon their machine.
So that's what they'll do.So nothing happens? I mean, if they abandon the WM nothing really changes as they are only Wound-counters and there to see how many attacks the WM has in CC.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 08:45
So nothing happens? I mean, if they abandon the WM nothing really changes as they are only Wound-counters and there to see how many attacks the WM has in CC.

Why would nothing happen?
The crew move 2d6" and the machine stay's where it is.
As they abandon it, like the spell says they do.

This allows the crew to charge and they'll function exactly like a small unit of however many models were crewing the machine before the spell was cast.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 08:49
The BRB still states that they are not a combat unit, the spell does nothing to change this, it just moves the counters/markers from within 1" of the WM to that plus 2d6". The WM is still treated as the extent of the unit.
I would like to know where you get the info that they should suddenly become their own unit?

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 08:57
The word abandon in the spell?

Chris_
10-10-2010, 09:02
The word abandon in the spell?So where are the rules for a wound marker leaving a unit?

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 09:11
The crew models are wound markers, the crew themselves are not.
Thus in this case they are able to abandon their machine as the spell explicitly says thats what happens.

So the crew leave the machine and then we use the stats for the crew in the Orc&Goblin book.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 09:47
Are you for real? :D

I've been saying all the time that there are no rules for this anywhere, if you can show me a rules quote for what you say then please enlighten me. You can't because there are no rules for this situation, but you should make a house rule for it and stick to this.
People that do read this and think TUB's house rule is good, please think about that this destroys the WM as there are no wounds left. (all the W-markers have been removed)

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 10:29
The spell says the crew abandon the machine, so they abandon the machine.
So we have to figure out what happens after that.

The machine and crew have stats of their own.
When together they combine like normal, when not together they use their own set of stats.

It's really quite simple.
Not backed by rules of course but it doesn't involve anything too silly.
They're free to go back to their machine and when they get back within 1" of it they're treated as a combined unit.

Maybe an errata will change it, maybe it won't.
When they get a new book the spell will be altered accordingly to avoid this situation.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 10:35
Still doesn't solve the problem that all the wound counters have been removed and then the WM needs to be removed as per the BRB rules. Also there are still no rules for markers abandoning anything. You can say "abandon" but what effect does it have?

There are no rules that crew need to be within 1" at all times, only for deployment. After that, does it matter if the marker is 1,5" from the WM or 32"?

From the beginning to the start, nothing is supported by the rules so might as well come up with something that works better.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 10:40
Still doesn't solve the problem that all the wound counters have been removed and then the WM needs to be removed as per the BRB rules. Also there are still no rules for markers abandoning anything. You can say "abandon" but what effect does it have?

Why are they removed?


There are no rules that crew need to be within 1" at all times, only for deployment. After that, does it matter if the marker is 1,5" from the WM or 32"?

Think you'll find there are.


From the beginning to the start, nothing is supported by the rules so might as well come up with something that works better.

Like what I've said happens?

Chris_
10-10-2010, 10:47
Why are they removed?So now you are trying to argue that they are both their own unit and still crewing the WM?


Think you'll find there are.Hehe, it says they have to be arranged (set up) withing 1" of the WM not that they have to be there at all times ;)


Like what I've said happens?No, I said something better.

No sense in arguing this as we both agree there are no rules for this and all we do is trying to come up with a house rule.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 11:09
So now you are trying to argue that they are both their own unit and still crewing the WM?
No.
When the spell is cast they become a seperate entity to the machine and we use their seperate stats rather than a combined one.


Hehe, it says they have to be arranged (set up) withing 1" of the WM not that they have to be there at all times ;)

The words "(set up)" aren't present in my rulebook.
So the sentence doesn't read that they only need to be deployed within an inch, it reads that they are always placed wthin an inch and never further away.
Note that the spell removes this as they become a seperate entity due to abandoning the machine.


No sense in arguing this as we both agree there are no rules for this and all we do is trying to come up with a house rule.

Well there are 3 ways to do it.
1. Nothing happens.

2. The machine as a whole moves. Whether it can charge or not is up for debate.

3. The crew abandon the machine, becoming a unit and the two continue on as seperate entities untill they rejoin each other(if they ever do) and we use the stats present in the armybook for them. Note the machine obviously cannot continue to fire as it has no crew to crew it, but these crew were not removed and so the machine is not destroyed.

I sugguested the third option as it lets the spell work as it is stated to.
The crew can also charge as a result, they're also free to rejoin the machine later in the battle.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 11:32
As I said, no use discussing this any further. There are no rules for this so any ruling is as good as the other if the people you play with agree on it. But some ways require further changing of rules while others don't. So pick:

1. Do nothing.
2. Let the crew move and change all the rules for how WM works.
3. Ignore the part "- war machine crew will abandon their war machines" in the spell.

For me option 3 makes more sense as this is a remnant from 7th edition where there where rules for WM crew leaving their WM, it is a simpler solution and you don't need to change any further rules or adapt anything from the BRB.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 12:30
But some ways require further changing of rules while others don't. So pick:

1. Do nothing.
Requires us to ignore the spell rules utterly as if it doesnt work on the machine (which it does). Also we're ignoring the rule about crew being arranged upto 1" away from the machine as well as the part where the spell states that war machine crew abandon their machine.


2. Let the crew move and change all the rules for how WM works.
War machines are allowed to move. So unless your meaning charging (obviously you aren't as your not bothering mentioning it) then it doesn't disobey any rules barring the bit about war machine crew abandoning their machine in the spells description.


3. Ignore the part "- war machine crew will abandon their war machines" in the spell.
This isn't even a point as it's clearly been incorporated into the first 2 examples, neither of which follow the rules properly.


For me option 3 makes more sense as this is a remnant from 7th edition where there where rules for WM crew leaving their WM, it is a simpler solution and you don't need to change any further rules or adapt anything from the BRB.

Why would the third option which isn't even a fully resolved method make more sense than your other 2 options which are both better resolved examples?

Chris_
10-10-2010, 12:34
The 3rd option makes the whole WM move (my way)... The second one is your way (I wrote move instead of abandon)... And I am not advocating the first one.

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2010, 12:40
You might want to post a little more legibly in future and not use a different term when you mean something else.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 12:51
You might want to post a little more legibly in future and not use a different term when you mean something else.So I'll take it again... This time I'll try to clear any confusion you might have as to my meaning:

You can use it your way, this way you have to override (house rule) many rules regarding how war machines work in this edition and you have to come up with several new rules, amongst other things for markers/counters leaving their WM.

Or if you use it my way (just scratch the "crew abandon..." part) you only need to ignore a remnant from the last edition, where this was all explained by the rules, and simply use the other 85% of the spell description and it all works like a charm. Because if you ignore this it just says that all friendly units will move 2d6", the whole WM moves up and the problem is solved. The charging is not a problem either as AB trumps the BRB and the spell states that if you contact an enemy you count as charging. See how easy it is? We didn't have to make up any rules, just ignore a leftover from the previous edition.

DaemonReign
10-10-2010, 12:58
Wow this thread had gotten longer than I would ever have guessed over night.

In the battle where I was GM we finally decided to move the Entire WM.

In the future, we're leaning toward HouseRuling this particular situation as such:

Treat it exactly as if the crew had failed a panic test.

I.e. they're jumping up and down screaming very bad things at the enemy, so full of themselves that they forget to work the machine (thus not allowed to shoot that turn!).

We figure that the option of either moving only the crew (woundcounters) or moving the entire WM is fluff-wise "stupid" on a level where it should really be a Stupidity check of some sort. O&G are unruly of course, one could argue that leaving their WM is exactly what excited gobbo's Would do, still; We concider our HouseRule to be a good compromise since RAW is fubar and RAI doesn't seem to exist anymore.

The consequence of our houserule is that there is a negative effect of casting Whaagh (your warmachines will not shoot that turn) - but you avoid ugly silly stupid events like WM charging (or Not charging, just walking up and stopping 1" from an enemy which is even more Stupid) and you also avoid the whole issue of Woundcounters fluttering between the status of Independant Units and.. Woundcounters.

As for the conversation that the rest of you guys have been having here, I personally think that the solution "closest to RAW" would be to move the crew and leave the Warmachine where it is (AB trumps BrB after all), and the second best (mediating) solution between AB and BrB would be to move the entire WM.

Our houserule (since this rule about "cowering behind the WM" exists for failed panic checks in 8th ed) is however the one that we like best.

Chris_
10-10-2010, 13:05
I think a charging gobbo warmachine would be awesome :D I can just imagine the buggers getting caught up in the whole thing and before they know it they are in the middle of a bunch of enemies. Hehe ;)

DaemonReign
10-10-2010, 13:09
I think a charging gobbo warmachine would be awesome :D I can just imagine the buggers getting caught up in the whole thing and before they know it they are in the middle of a bunch of enemies. Hehe ;)

Yeah man I'm with you on that one. I personally don't understand why they bothered forbidden WM's the charge in the first place. I mean, it's not like it's actually something you'd want to do even if allowed(?).

But if course it would be more fun if Whaagh sometimes made the crew charge. But it seems one would have an ever expanding house-rule in that case..

SiNNiX
10-10-2010, 17:39
The rules for this situation aren't clear. GW has warned us this would happen constantly, as they always do with new rulebooks. You know, the section that says "there will be situations where the rules are unclear, unestablished, or contradict themselves. In these situations, be nice and create a reasonable resolution with your opponent that won't ruin the game." Obviously, these aren't the exact words, but they're close enough for me.

House Rule it.

Chris_
11-10-2010, 22:59
They are clear now, OnG got a boost. New FAQ says the Waagh spell doesn't affect WM at all.

Mr_Rose
12-10-2010, 19:07
They are clear now, OnG got a boost. New FAQ says the Waagh spell doesn't affect WM at all.
Specifically, from the Errata v1.2:
Page 41 Waaaggh!
Change [...]war machine crew will abandon their machines[...] to [...]this spell does not effect war machines[...]

DaemonReign
12-10-2010, 20:07
Specifically, from the Errata v1.2:
Page 41 Waaaggh!
Change [...]war machine crew will abandon their machines[...] to [...]this spell does not effect war machines[...]

Yes I saw this yesterday as well. One thing they managed to do right with that update. No need for houserules then.. The Whaagh spell got a bit a boost but the OnG army isn't exactly broken for it..

Good stuff!

Mr_Rose
12-10-2010, 20:16
Yes I saw this yesterday as well. One thing they managed to do right with that update. No need for houserules then.. The Whaagh spell got a bit a boost but the OnG army isn't exactly broken for it..

Good stuff!
Now all we have to do is teach the studio about "affect" and "effect" again...

SiNNiX
13-10-2010, 06:01
Now all we have to do is teach the studio about "affect" and "effect" again...

Ironically, I was thinking the same thing the other day. They mess that up so much! I wonder if it's a UK thing (no offense, mates).