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Nicho
10-10-2010, 21:48
Hey guys, do you think tyranids could be influenced by chaos? If not what do you think of the idea of the imperium trying to goad the tyranids into attacking the eye of terror? Suppose it could lead to possibility of some seriously nasty tyranid evolution lol.

Mr_Rose
10-10-2010, 21:55
Hey guys, do you think tyranids could be influenced by chaos? If not what do you think of the idea of the imperium trying to goad the tyranids into attacking the eye of terror? Suppose it could lead to possibility of some seriously nasty tyranid evolution lol.
Basically, the answer is no; there are no "individual" tyranids to be seduced away from the others so there isn't any way for chaos to get inside to corrupt them. The only way to turn any one tyranid would be to turn the hive mind itself and that is already clearly on a par with the big four in terms of raw power, so that ain't happening.

Effectively Tyranids already have their own "chaos god" and they all worship it; it's called the hive mind, aka. the Shadow in the Warp. It's just a good thing for everyone else that the hive mind isn't particularly interested in recruiting followers from other species.

wyvirn
10-10-2010, 22:26
Actually, the Hive Mind god does seek converts, just in a more physical way. Just ask the squats.
Secondly, I recall some old fluff that stated that a hive ship got infected with the obliterator virus, although that ship separated from the swarm soon afterward, i think. But Tyranids can be corrupted by the ruinous powers.
And while nids may not be able to be swayed diplomatically, they can be diverted given a strong enough genestealer cult. If you could get a brood of genestealers into the eye of terror on the right planet, you could have a hive fleet show up on its front door soon enough. It's been done before to the orks.
Answering the question directly, I don't think nids would go to the eye of terror, because there is such a nice light coming from earth attracting them. Also, its a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object: the hive mind blocks out access to the warp, whereas the eye of terror is practically in the warp.

Nicho
11-10-2010, 07:02
Cheers for the Response guys :) main thing that made me think of it was that artwork of the bloodthirster and carnifex having a scrap :)

nedius
11-10-2010, 11:58
Tyranids are certianly susceptable to the powers of chaos - there is some fluff (I think the one mentioned above) about a hive ship infected with a nurgle virus.

However, genestealer cults were once closely associated with chaos. A lot of the old artwork shows genestealers with khorne and chaos star tatoos, and the throned patriarch model had plenty of chaos iconography on it. The exact nature of that link I can't remember, but it was certainly there.

Mr_Rose
11-10-2010, 12:11
Tyranids are certianly susceptable to the powers of chaos - there is some fluff (I think the one mentioned above) about a hive ship infected with a nurgle virus.

However, genestealer cults were once closely associated with chaos. A lot of the old artwork shows genestealers with khorne and chaos star tatoos, and the throned patriarch model had plenty of chaos iconography on it. The exact nature of that link I can't remember, but it was certainly there.
That's because all cults were associated with chaos back then, as chaos itself was more of an impersonal force, opposed by Order, in much the same sense as it is in D&D, so anything that disrupted order was by default chaotic. This was also the time when Malal was still around to represent chaos' self-contradictory nature.

As for tyranid ships being affected by physical manifestations of a god's power (the nurgle plague and the obliterator virus for ex.); of course that works, same way they can be melted by a defiler's phlegm, burnt to a crisp by warpfire, or vaporised by a lascannon.
The key is what the tyranids then decide to do about it; until one of these infected ships is seen to start praying to nurgle for succour or something then chaos hasn't turned or corrupted it, just killed it.

zendral
11-10-2010, 12:51
Chaos "corrupts" on all different levels. Spiritual, mental, physical. With the nids its that last one. The hive mind is a force in the warp as is the chaos gods. Depending on the size of the fleet and the power of the hive mind, the power of chaos could get "shut down" on a planet otherwise ruled by chaos worshippers and sorcerers.

The opposite works as well. Assume a powerful warpstorm is going on with daemons and chaos thriving on a planet...the hive would not be able to use the "shadow in the warp" ability as it is simply overwhelmed by the chaos force. The fleet struggles to fight as the hive link is weakened against a neverending swarm of daemons. The nids die, the link is severed, and whatever living nids are left can be physically corrupted. I've read about a nurgle corrupt carnifex somewhere I can't recall though....

Allen
11-10-2010, 13:54
Basically, the answer is no; there are no "individual" tyranids to be seduced away from the others so there isn't any way for chaos to get inside to corrupt them. The only way to turn any one tyranid would be to turn the hive mind itself and that is already clearly on a par with the big four in terms of raw power, so that ain't happening

Both in "codex fluff" and "BL fluff" it seems quite clear that Chaos creatures can (and will, if it's benefical to their goals or simply funny) possess inanimate things, animals or simply influence reality in more broad sense. If a piece of lavorated metal and composite materials like a Rhino is not safe from the touch of Chaos why should a living being like a Tyranid immune? An example: one of the transport ship of an Iron Warrior company is a Tyranid bioship corrupted and enslaved to their will.

If a chaos entity wants to possess something/someone and the barrier between the Immaterium and realspace is sufficiently weakened such object or creature is pretty screwed...unless it's a pariah, an extremely pious individual or possess a (very effective) psychic protection.

Herne the hunter
11-10-2010, 16:17
I always wanted to convert a small chaosnid swarm after reading the game narratives on p.53 of the Daemonhunters codex:


Daemonhunters would fight Tyranids because:
A hive ship was sucked into the warp and what emerged was corrupted beyond all reason. When the few surviving monsters make planetfall, the Daemonhunters are waiting to destroy them all.

A corrupted Hive Tyrant has been infected with Nurgle's Rot and is spreading plague ahead of it's swarms. The Daemonhunters must find it and kill it to give the Imperial forces a chance of resisting.

A Khornate icon unearthed by the Tyranids' rapacious digestion of a planet's surface is driving the monsters into a frenzt of destruction. It must be destroyed.

I pictured lots of tentacles in random places, crab claws, extra eyes on one side of the head, that sort of thing. I'd still like to do it someday but I don't have too much money and right now my future includes Eldar, Dark Eldar and Slaanesh, in that order.

Also on the subject of there being no individual nids, I'm sure I remember fluff from one of the older books stating that when smaller griblies such as termagants get separated from the main swarm they basically go feral.

Jack of Blades
11-10-2010, 16:49
It shouldn't be hard to picture parts of the Hive Mind becoming corrupted and breaking away, just like cells of a body can go bad so can the Tyranids.

Megad00mer
11-10-2010, 17:08
The Hive Mind doesnít exist in the Warp and is not a god. Tyranids have no form of worship and are probably not even capable of understanding the concept.

The Hive Mind is the collective consciousness of every Tyranid creature, from the smallest single celled phage organism all the way up to the largest Hive Ships and it's greater than the sum of itís parts. It doesnít exist anywhere in terms of having a physical (or spiritual) form. Itís pure telepathic thought.

Tyranid telepathy is instinctual just as breathing is for other creatures. Tyranid psychic abilities come from the power of the Hive Mind itself and not from the Warp. Tyranids donít even use the Warp for travel. The Hive Mind is so utterly alien and different I donít believe the Chaos powers could even fathom how to ďcorruptĒ it in a spiritual sense.

As someone said earlier, Tyranids can still be effected by Chaos physically (nurgle's rot, oblit virus etc.) but I donít think theyíll ever be a Hive Fleet of Chaos worshiping bugs. Just doesnít make any sense.

spetswalshe
11-10-2010, 17:52
The Tyranid-as-animals thing has been brought up; they could well be twisted into Chaos' service without the Hive Mind to guide and protect them. Stick a cage full of Termagants next to a Khornate bloodstone and come back in a week and you'll probably end up with one Termy with a skull-rune on his forehead drooling and squatting on a pile of corpses.

However, individual Tyranids aren't known for their personality; apart from possibly the Swarmlord, they couldn't be said to have any actual consciousness of their own. So the only real way of a Tyranid turning to actual Chaos worship would be to turn the Hive Mind itself - and, since the Hive Mind is again not a normal consciousness, as well as immensely powerful in it's own right, it's not likely to happen. Really we don't know enough about it, but if the Hive Mind has consumed entire galaxies, the petty idols of this particular one will mean very little to it. It's arguably more powerful than the Big Four themselves; it doesn't play by any of their rules, feeling neither anger nor joy nor despair nor hope, and sooner or later it's going to nom them.


It's just a good thing for everyone else that the hive mind isn't particularly interested in recruiting followers from other species.

The Genestealers didn't get that memo.

Theocracity
11-10-2010, 18:28
I've never bought the idea that Tyranid have no presence in the Warp. Their telepathy and psychic power has to come from somewhere. I've always thought that as a highly evolved organism, the Tyranid evolved a protection against the dangers of the Empyrean by utilizing the Shadow. The more concentrated the Hive Mind is, the more power it has to deny other gestalt psychic entities (i.e. Khorne, Tzeentch, Khaine, Mork, etc). It's the ultimate evolved defense mechanism.

That being said, the farther a Nid organism is from the Hive Mind the more susceptible it is to Warp influence. I doubt a Norn Queen led hive fleet is going to be bothered by a Chaos symbol or a Farseer's attacks, but a wayward Genestealer cult could certainly become slowly more bloodthirsty (or diseased or mutated) by the presence of the Ruinous Powers - at least until the hive arrives and reasserts its control.

Not that a wayward Tyranid would become a Chaos worshipper by any means. Most Nid organisms don't have the self awareness, and those that do (genestealer cults) instinctively know who the boss is. Chaos corrupts in more subtle ways, turning the cells cancerous without their realization. A Tzeentch tainted cult would still call the Hive Fleet to itself, though the Hive Mind would reject absorbing such mutated genes.

TheShadowCow
11-10-2010, 18:59
The Hive Mind doesn’t exist in the Warp and is not a god. Tyranids have no form of worship and are probably not even capable of understanding the concept.

The Hive Mind is the collective consciousness of every Tyranid creature, from the smallest single celled phage organism all the way up to the largest Hive Ships and it's greater than the sum of it’s parts. It doesn’t exist anywhere in terms of having a physical (or spiritual) form. It’s pure telepathic thought.

Tyranid telepathy is instinctual just as breathing is for other creatures. Tyranid psychic abilities come from the power of the Hive Mind itself and not from the Warp. Tyranids don’t even use the Warp for travel. The Hive Mind is so utterly alien and different I don’t believe the Chaos powers could even fathom how to “corrupt” it in a spiritual sense.

As someone said earlier, Tyranids can still be effected by Chaos physically (nurgle's rot, oblit virus etc.) but I don’t think they’ll ever be a Hive Fleet of Chaos worshiping bugs. Just doesn’t make any sense.

You're right about everything except the emboldened text. Tyranid psychics do not harness the power of the Warp this is true, but their psychic presence is still there - Tyranid psychic communication is Tyranid communication through the Warp, and it is the force of that communication network that they harness (rather than the currents of the Warp itself, ala psykers native to our own galaxy).

This is what the latest Codex means when it states that Tyranids do not use the Warp "in any fathomable way", although their communication still resides within the Warp.

As for the Hive Mind itself - trying to say that it exists either within or without the Warp is probably a bad route to go down. Consider the nature of the Hive Mind - a composite lifeform on a multi-galactic scale. The entity as a whole (if such a term is even relevant) transcends the borders between the two realities, parts of it existing within the Warp (the communication network) and parts of it existing within our own dimensions (the physical Tyranids). When you stop and think about it, the Hive Mind as fleshed out in the 5th Edition book is one of GWs cooler, more abstract concepts, on a completely different level to the coalesced emotions of the Ruinous Powers.

I thoroughly recommend this article: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

Herne the hunter
11-10-2010, 20:08
A Tzeentch tainted cult would still call the Hive Fleet to itself, though the Hive Mind would reject absorbing such mutated genes.

Ooh, there's an idea; would it though? Tainted or no, the cult would still serve it's primary objectives (1. proliferate; 2. sow disruption; 3. repeat steps 1 and 2 until big enough to act as a beacon to the Hive Mind). When a swarm arrives on a stealer-infested world they assimilate everything they possibly can, genestealers included, to be recycled. The genes of a being corrupted by chaos are still biological matter. Having no noticeable warp presence as we understand it, would the Hive Mind even realise that the genetic material posed a threat? I'm sure it would notice something was different, but would it care? "Hmm... tastes kinda gamey. Oh well, wtvr. NOM NOM NOM!"

Being absorbed into the fleet's genepool may be a way for the ruinous power to get it's foot in the door and consequently engulf the entire fleet; every subsequent creature spawned with chaos effectively woven into it's very genes.

And with that, I now have a background for my chaosnids. :D

TheShadowCow
11-10-2010, 20:41
Ooh, there's an idea; would it though? Tainted or no, the cult would still serve it's primary objectives (1. proliferate; 2. sow disruption; 3. repeat steps 1 and 2 until big enough to act as a beacon to the Hive Mind). When a swarm arrives on a stealer-infested world they assimilate everything they possibly can, genestealers included, to be recycled. The genes of a being corrupted by chaos are still biological matter. Having no noticeable warp presence as we understand it, would the Hive Mind even realise that the genetic material posed a threat? I'm sure it would notice something was different, but would it care? "Hmm... tastes kinda gamey. Oh well, wtvr. NOM NOM NOM!"

Being absorbed into the fleet's genepool may be a way for the ruinous power to get it's foot in the door and consequently engulf the entire fleet; every subsequent creature spawned with chaos effectively woven into it's very genes.

And with that, I now have a background for my chaosnids. :D

The Tyranid Hive Fleets refuse to re-absorb the strain of Ymgarl Genestealers that have uncontrollable mutations (for now... I'm sure they are working on it - the Tyranids aren't the kind of race to just let something pass tem by), so when the Hive Mind dominates the Tzeentch Genestealer Cult and notices that thhey are tainted beyond salvation (where that line is drawn is another matter) then it would likely use them like it does the Ymgarls - to maximum effect, and then they are simply left on the world to die/hibernate when the Hive Fleet is done feeding. Genestealers themselves can cope with this by hibernating... hybrids probably not so much.

Theocracity
11-10-2010, 21:16
And with that, I now have a background for my chaosnids. :D

In general I agree with Shadowcow's assessment - there is documented evidence that excessively mutated Nid strains are kept out of the gene pool.

However, as it's your fluff, it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. It's a big galaxy, and you could justify a cancerous chaos-tainted splinter fleet with minimal effort. Maybe they were depleted and desperate for biomass?

Lord Lorne Walkier
12-10-2010, 01:56
I think one of the few weaknesses that the great devourer has is its apatite. They will eat anything.... even things no living creature would think off. I have had an idea of a splinter fleet getting cut of and stranded, forced by hunger to feed on Nurgle corrupted mushrooms. I would paint them purple and Orange with Yellow blue and red spots. Kinda a Alice in wonderland feel.

Hashulaman
12-10-2010, 09:10
Speaking of Chaos and Tyranids, I heard once Nurgle tried to(or is currently trying to) create a virus to use on Tyranids, any confirmation?

Utred
12-10-2010, 21:36
However, genestealer cults were once closely associated with chaos. A lot of the old artwork shows genestealers with khorne and chaos star tatoos, and the throned patriarch model had plenty of chaos iconography on it. The exact nature of that link I can't remember, but it was certainly there.


That's because all cults were associated with chaos back then, as chaos itself was more of an impersonal force, opposed by Order, in much the same sense as it is in D&D, so anything that disrupted order was by default chaotic. This was also the time when Malal was still around to represent chaos' self-contradictory nature.

They were seperate lists in RT. There was the Vanilla Genestealer cult list, then there was the chaos Genestealer cult list the next month. In the Chaos list you could have the broodlord possessed with a bloodthirster...

Fluff was that the genestealer force would do anything to establish power on the world it was on.

Yresk
13-10-2010, 17:20
on a mental level i think the tyranids can be confused by chaos. the hive mind and their minnions submit a large psycic imprint as noticed by their "shadow of the warp" thingy that is noticed several times. as tyranids decend on a planet psykers become enraged or go crazy(more often than normal) because of this massive entity. effectivly it blacks out the warp. making it harder for messeges to go in and out and harder for ships reinforcing the planet to get into orbit as its very hard to "See" the planet in the same way for the astropaths.

if you kill a hive tyrant or any other synapse creature makes the smaller ones pause for a moment. if a powerfull psycker is on the battlefield with no "big one" nearby i can see how they can be confused or disoriented.

normaly the tyranid has no special power against psycic powers. if you throw smite at it it will hurt no problem there.

on a more physical level like mutation i am all for it. like everything physical it can be changed by the power of the warp. but if annything like that happened im sure the hive mind would get the idea very quickly and remove the mutation by one mean or another.


OT in a RP i played i had a few genstealers in the lowest part of a hive and they had been kicking around there for a few years and i represented them with a serius Tzeench mutation to make things more interesting for the players.

Lord Asgul
13-10-2010, 21:41
Random question: how much room (models wise) would a Chaos-enhanced Carnifex take up in a vehicle (stormlord/gorgon)

Lord Damocles
14-10-2010, 09:08
Random question: how much room (models wise) would a Chaos-enhanced Carnifex take up in a vehicle (stormlord/gorgon)
Apocalypse, pg.118.