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Mondo80
12-10-2010, 15:23
How strong are space marines really? Is the strength/toughness rating a doubling factor? Orygns are S5 T5, so are they twice as strong as a space marine? I've killed a space marine in close combat with a cultist from the 3rd ed codex. Are they closer to football players or wrestlers? :confused:

El_Machinae
12-10-2010, 16:13
You can't really say "double" when it comes to strength. Double the bench-press? Hardly. A SM could press way more than double what a normal person (or even strong person) could press.

I think the best way to think of it is as scale. A SM is proportionately stronger to an adult like an adult is to a young teen. In one-on-one, there's no contest, but they're still on the same scale.

Phoebus
12-10-2010, 16:17
The numbers you're citing are game mechanics, which should be taken with a grain of salt.

I think it's safe to say that a Space Marine is stronger than any unaugmented human being could be. This is due to an enhanced physiology that allows them to exceed the physical limitations of a (using GW's own average) 7.5 foot-tall human being. That physiology entails a superior, hardened skeletal structure, enhanced musculature, hormones, chemical processes, etc.

All this allows for a Space Marine to do things that a normal human being couldn't do, during the heightened state of combat, and outside it. He could lift more weight than possible, break materials another human being couldn't (without sustaining injury at any rate), etc. The same mechanics would allow him to run faster, longer, jump farther and higher, etc.

Ogryns might be "stronger", but in a different way. Unlike Space Marines, they haven't been "optimized for their shape and size". Their entire body isn't designed so that every part works with the other to achieve a greater whole. Their greatest asset is their mass--but we're talking about quantity, not quality. Could they lift more weight than an Astartes, pull greater loads, etc.? Sure. Could they do more damage swinging an item at someone or something? Probably.

On the other hand, I imagine an Astartes can jump farther and higher than an Ogryn. I imagine an Astartes could do more damage using his actual body parts as weapons (his skeletal structure allowing for damage, and his musculature being more directed and supportive).

So it all depends on your definition.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 16:25
They're strong, but I feel that legends of their strength outweigh their actual prowess. Ultimately their muscles are made of human flesh like ours. While they are naturally heavily muscled and there may be a higher density of muscle fibres, that puts your average marine at the level or slightly higher than a world-class weight-lifter. This is further boosted by the strength-enhancing attributes of power armour.

Yes, they're "super-humanly strong," but given that they're made of human muscle, even hormonally modified it can't much over the human maximum, particularly since they aren't that diesel.

massey
12-10-2010, 16:40
My view of them (and it's only my view) is that they're as strong as Arnold in the movies. They're "superhuman" in the sense that people can't actually do what Arnold seems to do. Yes, Arnold appears to flip over a car, what you don't see is that they strip out the engine and all the stuff to make it go so that the body is light enough for him to lift it (though he's still really strong to even do that). A marine can bend steel in his bare hands. He's crazy strong, stronger than any real person, but it's more Moses Hightower (Bubba Smith in Police Academy) or John Matrix (Arnold in Commando) than Spider-Man.

Phoebus
12-10-2010, 16:41
It's not just denser musculature or greater amounts of it. It's enhanced musculature, down to the cellular level. Comparing human musculature to Astartes musculature might as well be equivalent to comparing the difficulty of tearing paper versus (for example) a thin sheet of leather. The greatest Olympic sprinters, football players, etc., routinely suffer from pulled hamstrings, strained muscles, torn tendons, etc. Astartes? No.

And we haven't even begun to talk about the other components of their bodies.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 16:47
Where does it say this in the background? The biscopea is the only organ related to muscles and it just stimulates muscle growth. I've heard similar claims that there is some kind of physiological difference but I've never seen any fluff that actually states that marine muscle is any different from normal human muscle - they just have more of it.

Phoebus
12-10-2010, 17:08
You are correct, sir. I incorrectly referenced effects the Ossmodula has on bones to this discussion (about muscles).

I'll agree to disagree with you, though. I still believe that a designed (for all intents and purposes) physiology will outperform the human optimum by more than a "slightly higher" level. That's just my opinion, though. :)

Hendarion
12-10-2010, 17:22
Since the strongest human in world-records seams to be able to lift 475kg and Space Marines use servo-driven Power-Armor which increase their strength massively in the fluff, I seriously doubt that a normal Space Marine is able to lift those 475kg without his servo-armor. By far not, if you ask me. Maybe a Primarch is able to, but not an average Marine - they might be better than humans in many ways, but they are not that uber.

Son of Sanguinius
12-10-2010, 17:26
Only three things can increase a Space Marine's strength beyond the human limitations (assuming psychic energy is not involved).

1. Durability of tissue. If you increase the capacity of each individual muscle fiber and tendon of a particular muscle, that muscle will be far stronger than another muscle of the same size. This also requires an increase in the strength of the skeleton and the attachments of tendon to bone.

2. Size of the muscle. To a considerable extent, the larger a muscle is, the bigger its capacity. You have more fibers and can generate more force. This becomes inefficient after a certain point, however. It's why bodybuilders aren't the strongest individuals, pound for pound, on the planet.

3. The brain. The brain controls muscle function. If, for example, you alter the brain chemistry to be able to activate more muscle fibers for particular movements, a muscle can seem to have superhuman strength. The danger here is that the brain's limitations are naturally evolved in order to prevent us from shredding our own muscles by trying to do too much.

Obviously, the second is present in Space Marines. The other two are entirely possible (not guaranteed, as 40k doesn't always follow our scientific understanding).

Sadly, the easiest answer is the Space Marines are as strong as they need to be for the plot. I would imagine that Space Marine strength varies wildly, but that it doesn't matter because suits of power armor have maximum capacities for power and a Space Marine can't exceed them.

In his power armor, I've read stories of Space Marines punching and cracking power armor, flipping car-equivalents, having vertical leaps of several feet, running through rockrete fortifications at full tilt, and matching the strength of Ork Nobs, which unless I'm mistaken are supposed to be even larger than a power armored Marine.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 18:16
Well, able to outperform the strongest humans alive today who have trained for their whole lives isn't shabby either! Add onto that their armour, and Marines are frighteningly strong. Just not the crazy "space marines should be able to juggle battletanks" rubbish you hear the SM fanbois spouting about how they're toned down in the game for balance. I think that matching or even slightly exceeding the strongest human - 475kg deadlift or whatever - is reasonable for genetically engineered superhumans with tougher bones, optimised muscle formation, etc, but much more than that starts to get rather unbelievable.

DeathTyrant
12-10-2010, 18:17
In my mind - I imagine that an average, out of armour Space Marine is able to at least match Power Lifting World Records AND do it for dozens of REPS and sets, not just 1 REP maxes.

Enhanced musculature, skeletal structure, overall size, and extreme training - and ONLY for those that have already shown themselves to be extremely strong and fit specimens as adolescents (according to recruitment fluff) would surely allow for extreme physical abilities.
Especially since we are considering this to take place in a Sci-Fi fantasy setting in the 41st Millennium.

Pictured below is what Shaquille O'Neal looked like at the following statistics:

7 ft 1 in (2.16 m)
325 lb (147 kg)

I personally imagine a Space Marine as being anywhere from 5 - 11 inches taller than Shaq, and WAY more bulky and dense in both muscle and bone mass.
I'm thinking 600 lb or more for mass.

UselessThing
12-10-2010, 21:32
In Deathwatch the RPG an average Marine in armour can lift 2.7 tons.

He can pick up and throw a medium car without overly exerting himself.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 21:42
Yeah, in Inquisitor, the Space Marines also had a crazy strength bonus. It's not as bad as in that game (Deathwatch has been designed with Space Marines in mind, unlike Inquisitor, where the original stats of Space Marines simply broke the system). The Inquisitor stats were simply out of whack (more damage with an punch than a lascannon and silliness like that), but Deathwatch should be a convincing resource.

How much does Deathwatch say they can lift without armour? I have the book but I'm still sifting through. What's the page number for the above number?

UselessThing
12-10-2010, 22:00
It is on page 208.

I think a convincing case can be made that the table is badly porked. If my amature hour efforts with excell at extending the table are correct, the strongest Marine possible by the rules can lift about 100 tons. :-)

El_Machinae
12-10-2010, 23:17
We're getting in Hulking Hurler turf, there :D

Kage2020
12-10-2010, 23:21
Obviously the answer to the original question is "Space Marines are not real, thus questioning 'how strong they are really'?" is going to get you in some trouble. ;)

To answer the last question about the strength of Marines as represented in Deathwatch, a "starting" Marine can carry 1,350 kg, lift 2,700 kg, and push 5,400 kg. This may be colorfully represented as mentioned above. This is halved for a Marine out of power armour.

Based on the "average" human, this makes the Marine about 37 times stronger, or about 18-19 times stronger when they're not in their power armour.

In Inquisitor the "average" Space Marine was about four times stronger. Yet that was also the system that gave us the "Imperial Space Marine Plasma Fist of Doom."

And in Deathwatch this is a starting character. It gets worse, also as pointed out above. To say that things might smell rotten in the... errr... Imperium of Man might be an understatement of gargantuan proportions.

Or not. YMMV.

On the other hand, the idea that they are only as strong as the plot is worrisome... given the strength of many of the plots in BL novels. :shifty:

The wonkiness/mistake is probably the result of seeing how strong humans can be and then scaling them up "heroically." I call these the "Space MArnies" in homage to the Governator.

For myself? I'm going to stick with the idea of Marines being about 4-5 times stronger than the "average" human. That tends to put them in the range of power builders, which probably doesn't sound "heroic enough" for many here, but at the same time they get this and old the other tripped out, twinked out benefits of being a Marine for free. I'd like to see the power lifter spit acid or get down with the idea of a cannibalistic version of Matrix "I Know Kung Fu."

In their armour? Their stronger again, even getting up to the somewhat lofty levels that Deathwatch might attribute them.

Again, though, YMMV. If you post on the FFG Deathwatch forums you'll likely see a different response along the "heroic scaling" lines. The question then becomes just why the MArnies need to be just quite that strong, or were the BI bods smoking something when they designed the carry/lifting/pushing table...? :D

Edit: Oh yes. Height and weight. According to Deathwatch a Space Marine tops out at "just over" 2.1 m in their power armour when they are unarmoured. Presumably the mass of their double-handed Chainaxe of Awesomeness causes them to stoop a little bit because, well, it's big, 'hard and therefore has to be heavy even for a MArnie. For that height they weigh somewhere in the realm of 500-1,000 kg. Given the armour is meant to weight in the realms of 250 kg, the Marine pulls out an impressive 250-750 kg themselves. Despite this, it goes on to say, Marines don't really much in height or weight. Well, except in weight variation turns out to be +/-50% if one assumes that the values presented are not in and of themselves exceptional. Errr, which you cannot assume. Or can you? Not sure. FAQ!

(The obvious tongue-in-bit bits are, funnily enough, intended to be tongue-in-cheek.)

Kage

UselessThing
12-10-2010, 23:47
For maximum Deathwatch strength output - roll 50 for strength and toughness. Buy all the available upgrades taking you to 70 in both. With Unnatural Characteristics the characteristic bonus is doubled to 14 in both.

Wear Terminator armour with the Strength of Legend armour history for + 40 strength.

Use the Feat of Strength solo mode ability (rank 7+ version), increasing your Strength Bonus multiplyer to *4.

So, our Marine is now putting out a value on the lifting table of

28 (SB) + 14 (TB) + 4 (armour) = 46

Now, the table only goes up to 20. The values on the table were obviously hand picked without resort to any kind of formula, but Carry Weight = 2.58 * 1.42^(SB+TB+Armour Strength) is a close approximation. Lifting weight is twice that.

Plugging in the numbers we see that the Marine can carry 26114 tons and lift 52229 tons. So he could pick up a battleship the size of the Bismark.

:-)

Lord Inquisitor
13-10-2010, 00:52
So quite easily throw a battle titan around, eh? :D Props to you for working that out, that should earn you some geek cred right there...

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 00:55
Plugging in the numbers we see that the Marine can carry 26114 tons and lift 52229 tons. So he could pick up a battleship the size of the Bismark.

:-)
The question you have to ask yourself is not whether it is porked, but whether it can be argued to represent the complete pork consumption of the Earth and its numerous parallel dimensions... since the world began. :shifty: :eyebrows:

:angel:

Kage

Hellebore
13-10-2010, 01:17
Don't forget this sort of thing is true of anything else with the same combined SB and TB.

Like Genestealers, Orks, Ogryns and so on.

By allowing marines to pick up a car in each hand they're effectively allowing genestealers to do it too.

What would do more damage? A genestealer stabbing you with its claws or a genestealer throwing a 750kg steel slab at your face?

Hellebore

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 01:20
Obviously, the genestealer. Witness Space Hulk and the fact that terminator armour was originally designed to survive in plasma reactors (you'll find some debate as to whether they were fully on at the time). ;) It's got to take some seriously alien claws of death/acid of breaching doom to get through armour that cool. :D

Edit: <grumble, grumble> Forgive me, though. As long as it is balanced porkiness, it's seemingly no-never-mind. :shifty: ;)

Kage

Flawed
13-10-2010, 01:43
Another thing to take into account is there are two types of muscle fibre. Fast and slow twitch. Loosely, this breaks down into big slow guys, or small fast ones. Those power lifters that exist in real life, don't move quickly. Yet we're told Marines fight sublimely, leaping and dodging and generally being martial artists of legend, which just really doesn't gel with their 'strength' attributes.

Also, in the main game, marines in power armour are but one strength higher than a normal human. So those Deathwatch figures are based off the jump from strength 3 to strength 4. So how does it deal with monstrous creatures who have ratings of 6 or higher?

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 01:45
Didn't UselessThing just point that out. That Space Marine "major hero" can lift over 50,000 tonnes... That's worth an S of 6, surely? S 3 = 72kg, S4 = 2,700 kg, S5 = ? S6=50,000+ tons.

Awesome. It might even bring a tear of appreciation to the Governator's eyes. :shifty:

Edit: Because in the grimdark universe of 40k, sarcasm is much easier than game design. :D

Edit 2: And because sarcasm sometimes needs a thousand words? A Primarch in action...

http://www.bo.infn.it/atlas_rpc/images/atlas2.jpg

Kage

Polaria
13-10-2010, 08:10
Edit: Oh yes. Height and weight. According to Deathwatch a Space Marine tops out at "just over" 2.1 m in their power armour when they are unarmoured. Presumably the mass of their double-handed Chainaxe of Awesomeness causes them to stoop a little bit because, well, it's big, 'hard and therefore has to be heavy even for a MArnie. For that height they weigh somewhere in the realm of 500-1,000 kg. Given the armour is meant to weight in the realms of 250 kg, the Marine pulls out an impressive 250-750 kg themselves. Despite this, it goes on to say, Marines don't really much in height or weight. Well, except in weight variation turns out to be +/-50% if one assumes that the values presented are not in and of themselves exceptional. Errr, which you cannot assume. Or can you? Not sure. FAQ!

(The obvious tongue-in-bit bits are, funnily enough, intended to be tongue-in-cheek.)

Kage


Just a few corrections:

"Unarmed" in the height is mentioned not because of the chainaxe of awesomeness but because the Astartes Backpack Ammo Supply for heavy weapons and Jump Pack for assault marines reach considerably higher than the top of his head making the "operational height" of Devastator or Assaulte marine more than 2.1m.

The weight range of 500-1000 kg includes body mass variation AND the variation of armors weight. The lightest armor (in weight), the artifice power armor is 100 kg, a normal power armor is around 180 kg and terminator armor can be 400 kg. When you factor this in, the body weight of a marine sets between 400 - 600 kg.

As for the "how strong":

The Deathwatch rules says an average marine can consistently lift 1350 kg outside his armor (2700 kg in power armor). Surely when you start to abuse the rules by taking feats and talents and whatnot you can reach ridiculous levels of 50 tons or whatnot, but I don't think rules-abuse-munchkinism is intended to be representative of canon in any way. Rules always have glitches. Like the ridiculous bolter ranges in table-top if you actually believe everything is in scale.

Hendarion
13-10-2010, 08:33
lol, sorry if I'm laughing, but these numbers are so silly that I can't do different. Carrying a ton up to 50 tons without getting squashed (even if the bones don't break, the cell-structure of the skin would crack bleedy open under such a weight). But well, I guess only GW can be blamed for such nonsense and I gotta accept it. :D lol...

Polaria
13-10-2010, 08:54
lol, sorry if I'm laughing, but these numbers are so silly that I can't do different. Carrying a ton up to 50 tons without getting squashed (even if the bones don't break, the cell-structure of the skin would crack bleedy open under such a weight). But well, I guess only GW can be blamed for such nonsense and I gotta accept it. :D lol...

Like I said it is (theoretically) possible only by one source (Deathwatch by FFG) and even in that case it requires bending the rules in ways that was not really intended. You can't really even blame anyone for it. Or we might as well go into table-top situations where (equally theoretically) grot can kill a terminator and say "grot can kill a terminator, its canon".

Phoebus
13-10-2010, 09:42
Guys, also remember that those numbers are theoretical and directed at any number of situations.

Someone mentioned the battleship weight 52,000 tons, and an Astartes trying to lift it. In fact, an Astartes trying to lift said object would achieve the same result as a needle trying to support your body weight. In other words, it's pointless and unnecessary to imagine an Astartes trying to lift/carry something ludicrously large.

Rather, I would posit that those numbers are meant to reflect other situations that said weight could be applied to. For instance, an Astartes' ability to lift or carry something (or to even move himself) in a high gravity world. An Astartes juggling cars is ludicrous; an Astartes being engineered, skeletally and muscularly (not to mention outfitted w/ power armor), to maintain movement in a world with double or triple the gravitational forces of our own, though? That sounds practical.

And really, are such numbers that silly when, as someone else mentioned, we're dealing with a game driven by rules asserting that a machinegun rocket launcher from 38,000 years in the future can only effectively range people out to, say, 100-200 meters (approximately, by scale)?

Polaria
13-10-2010, 11:36
And really, are such numbers that silly when, as someone else mentioned, we're dealing with a game driven by rules asserting that a machinegun rocket launcher from 38,000 years in the future can only effectively range people out to, say, 100-200 meters (approximately, by scale)?

The table top ranges are hardly supposed to be on scale. They are supposed to be whatever number of inches is practical for the actual table-top gaming... if we look at fluff source which is not directly derived from table-top scale extrapolations (Deathwatch RPG) the effective range of standrad issue bolter is 300 meters with "close-combat ammunition" and 450 meters with kraken rounds. Stalker patter bolter, which is supposed to be long-range weapon, has considerably longer range than that.

Aside from the "lets-abuse-the-rules" situations the Deathwatch standard of 500 kg marine being able to lift 1300 kg and having a bolter which can shoot up to 300 meters (when specifically optimized for close range firefights) sounds pretty plausible. And is also canon.

The 200 kg marine lifting 50 tons and having bolter that can shoot up to 50 meters is what you get when you purposefully bend the rules just to see how silly results you can get.

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 12:37
Just a few corrections...
You did see that thing about "tongue-in-cheek" didn't you? I ask merely because you seemed to take everything seriously and "correct" everything. Apologies, though. I think that Deathwatch has pretty much been the final nail in the coffin for official 40k, at least for me, turning me into one solid chunk of green mineral (jaded... ha!... kmaybenot :shifty: ). So, while re-engaging myself with other matters of 40k I thought that I would try a little bit of tongue-in-cheek humour, something that I felt came out in subsequent posts.

My bad.


Surely when you start to abuse the rules by taking feats and talents and whatnot you can reach ridiculous levels of 50 tons or whatnot, but I don't think rules-abuse-munchkinism is intended to be representative of canon in any way.
Thankfully, though, all pigs are equal... ;)


lol, sorry if I'm laughing, but these numbers are so silly that I can't do different... But well, I guess only GW can be blamed for such nonsense and I gotta accept it. lol...
Well, these are numbers produced by FFG, who acquired the license after GW folded BI. Just how much they are keyed into using the--arguably--wonky mechanics is up for speculation, but given that BI were reported to throw out "new ideas" in favour of using the WFRP engine might say much to perceived intent. Put another way, mayb they're just not allowed to fix the "problems" that were evident from the publication of Dark Heresy and these have merely concatenated?


Like I said it is (theoretically) possible only by one source (Deathwatch by FFG) and even in that case it requires bending the rules in ways that was not really intended.
The thing is, no-one really knows what is intended just what is possible. While giggle-worthy, doesn't the example merely show what might happen to, say, a player that decides they're going to play that Marine who is so large that they have to wear power armour? You know, that exception? Before long, they're power-lifting a battleship just as by extreme fluke a grot PC (if such a being existed) could cleave a terminator in two with a paring knife with enough Righteous Fury.

I'm not sure which of those were intended...


Rather, I would posit that those numbers are meant to reflect other situations that said weight could be applied to. For instance, an Astartes' ability to lift or carry something (or to even move himself) in a high gravity world. An Astartes juggling cars is ludicrous; an Astartes being engineered, skeletally and muscularly (not to mention outfitted w/ power armor), to maintain movement in a world with double or triple the gravitational forces of our own, though? That sounds practical.
That's another possible intent, but as ludicrous as lifting a battlecruiser.


And really, are such numbers that silly when, as someone else mentioned, we're dealing with a game driven by rules asserting that a machinegun rocket launcher from 38,000 years in the future can only effectively range people out to, say, 100-200 meters (approximately, by scale)?
Yes, they're definitely just as silly. Acknowledging the fact doesn't necessarily make the observation worthless.


The 200 kg marine lifting 50 tons and having bolter that can shoot up to 50 meters is what you get when you purposefully bend the rules just to see how silly results you can get.
Some might even call that playtesting...

YMMV, but there's a point in there somewhere.

Kage

Yresk
13-10-2010, 12:49
i think Son of sanguinus explained it best. itsnot just pure muscle. its about the muscle. powerarmour. training and mental will.

a normal human can only use between 20-60% of their real strengh because damage would ensue. a big muscle bound weight lifter might be able to benchpress twice his massive stature and training in just that field. a boxer might hit with (about) 1000 punds of force on one target with a combination of stature, speed and training. and then we have those little martial art raskals who are just cheating and can put out a punch with five times (maybe four, it was a time since i read the book) their own body weight in one fellling strike.

even with all this its still a big limit. the body is not supposed to use 100% if youve ever had an epileptic sesiure. you will know what im talking about because it is horrendus and painfull and can really bring lasting damage(own experience talking here).

i see space marines having just about all the advantages mentioned above. but still wou have to make a playable game out of it so 15 pts is a good bench mark. but like mentioned when you check the fluff or the other rules systems like deathwatch and inq you see the SM going to massive lenghts. and i think you should keep an open mind to this in my own RP (based on early fluff and other games than the main one) i had space marines and their chaos counterparts do some real awsome things. and to this point i have yet to found someone to complain about these events. i talked about them at my local GW several times and of coarse you cant rebuild the game towards that. but this is what happened in the game.


Chaos Space marine, scanned trhough a wall, sees two IG taking cover, he smashes his fists though the wall and crushes their heads.

CSM making a get away picks up an earthshaker shell and throws it like an improvised grenade.

CSM in close combat charges a SM and smashes him through a wall.

SM with power fist smashing a hole in a LEman russ, fires his bolt pistol and kills everyone inside.

4 SM tropers without a anti tank weapon, flanks a chimera and charges it, knocking it down in a ditch.

SM climbing on top of a leman russ, tears of the top hatch within two turns and throws down a grenade.

CSM lands on a heavy weapon team, kills the user and starts shooting a autocannon from the hip(not hitting annything but thats besides the point)

these are all feats of strengh that i think makes these guys into the super soldiers you see. and thats what i use as referens.

one can argue that a genestealer will strike as hard as they have the same strengh. but remember they have greater speed and their claws are specialy designed to kill and maim with just a normal swipe or strike. like a martial artist. but in a bench press agaisnt a SM i think the SM will win 10 out of 10.

an ogryns strengh is just a measure of their massive bulk and their heavy weapon/club. they can probably lift a space marine with little difficulty as can the bigger orks. but like weight lifters, they are pound for pound not as effective as a SM(not counting the armour weight)

and about the guns. we sat down and played deathwatch on monday and my friend who was a conscript in the army noticed that the range for a boltgun is 300 meters. he laughed and stated that he could hit a man sized target with his AK4 at 400 meters with no sights. its kind of strange but i guess it is for balance and to maintain scale. but if boltguns are range 24 and can fire 300 m in the rules and a kracken rounds can fire 400m. and sniper rifles fire 36". to my knowlage the longest sniper kill i can confirm today is a US marine during "operation cobra" with a sniper rifle confirming a kill at 2400 meters. and ive heard(not confirmed) that a brittish sniper killed at over 3500 meters.

range is kind of strange when you think about it. it does not scale well att all.

Hendarion
13-10-2010, 13:08
A Marine punching though a Leman Russ, through t-steel as thick as my leg? As powerful as a Laser Cannon... impossible, because of the lack of mass: f = m*a. But he'd have some nice pains trying to do so. And he'd probably require a bionic hand afterwards.

Sniper: 2430m is world record, needed 3 tries to hit.

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 13:17
4 SM tropers without a anti tank weapon, flanks a chimera and charges it, knocking it down in a ditch.
(Emphasis mine.)

Just wanted to point out this hilarious typographic which is oh-so-appropriate (arguably). It's been a while since a genuinely "LOL'd," so thanks. (Tropes and Marines seem to go hand in hand.)

On the other hand, even four Marines might have been hard-pushed to achieve such a task without disabling the drive train and pushing. Of course (cynically) there's probably a Squad Mode to cover such situations since it sounds suitably heroic and OTT. Kewl. :D

Kage

Yresk
13-10-2010, 13:29
Hendarion. the space marine had a POWER fist. not just his normal armour. that is very powerfull. if a SM has a chance of killing a LMR in the rear with a pf in the rear on 2+, possibly destroying it with one punch that is a good kill. but this was a guy who punched one small hole, and killed the crew with his shrapnell causing pistol. now if he was not armed with a power fist that would be ludicrus. but now he had so thats the situation.

kage2020. (i know about my bad spelling. im severly dyslectic so im sorry for that, but im trying my best:))
i know its really on the verge of what is capable i know. but the group wanted to do it and rolled some very good dice. and as a GM ive learnt that you have to roll with the dice. this was not a long and hard slog against the chimera. it was a fast and hard hitting. catching the tank driver completly by supprise.and agiain it did not kill the tank, it just knocked it into the ditch, getting ample time for the SM to get in place behind the rear hatch and when it opened they fired in a few bolt shells. done and done.

Hendarion
13-10-2010, 13:36
Ops. That should do it then :P

Kage2020
13-10-2010, 13:47
kage2020. (i know about my bad spelling. im severly dyslectic so im sorry for that, but im trying my best:))
Kudos. Like I was saying, though, I found it to be wonderfully appropriate and was thanking you for it. No worries, though, you certainly brought across your meaning.


it was a fast and hard hitting. catching the tank driver completly by supprise.and agiain it did not kill the tank, it just knocked it into the ditch, getting ample time for the SM to get in place behind the rear hatch and when it opened they fired in a few bolt shells.
Whatever works for your group is good enough. I quickly Googled some AFV stats, which had a Russian model at 20 tonnes, which even four "average" Marines would have trouble pushing (2.7 tonnes). Regardless of that, though, it did sound all heroic-like so good to go.

(On the other hand, perhaps it would be possible to roll it? Ack, who cares. :D)

:D

Kage

x-esiv-4c
13-10-2010, 13:56
Hendarion,

"because of the lack of mass: f = m*a"

That's only part of the system of equations. Sure the mass could be small but since mechanical damage is dependant on pressure, mass could be quite small, as long as the area of application is small too :)

Jind_Singh
14-10-2010, 05:05
A Marine is as strong as his faith in the God Emperor and his battle brothers!!! :P

Polaria
14-10-2010, 05:34
You did see that thing about "tongue-in-cheek" didn't you? I ask merely because you seemed to take everything seriously and "correct" everything.

My bad. Truly. Humor/irony is sometimes hard to detect in the internetz.

My weakness is that due to dealing daily with weapons in my daily life I have developed a very low tolerance for hollywoodism... Thus I tend to try to explain how things really go even when its not even required. Mea culpa. :p

Hendarion
14-10-2010, 07:20
Hendarion,

"because of the lack of mass: f = m*a"

That's only part of the system of equations. Sure the mass could be small but since mechanical damage is dependant on pressure, mass could be quite small, as long as the area of application is small too :)
The area of application had been defined by: "Hand" ;) A hand surely does not have the size of a needle. However, I didn't read it fully, so its of no importance.

Kage2020
14-10-2010, 12:42
My weakness is that due to dealing daily with weapons in my daily life I have developed a very low tolerance for hollywoodism...
Might be a bit of a stretch to refer to the post as engendering "holywoodisms," but I can empathise. I must admit to chuckling when maxing out ones Marine abilities is seen as inappropriate and beyond the intent of the rules when it comes to strength, yet the same thing was recently forwarded on the FFG forums as an appropriate argument to show how cool Marines were (I think it was about Cohesion points for a specific Chapter involving Talents/Traits, Rank 7+ and maybe some of that Squad or Solo Mode stuff).

Ah well, it's all fun and games until someone loses their I.

Kage

Polaria
14-10-2010, 13:12
I don't mind chuckling out on stupid things that come out of poorly written rules. My point simply was that I don't think it was intended... Even though I think FFG went a bit overboard with the "Mahreen Awwesssomnesss" when they decided that putting "Astartes" in front of weapons name automatically doubles its damage :p

Kage2020
14-10-2010, 13:41
LOL. Well, that's obviously because you're not bright enough to "understand the system," or you haven't read the rules, you just don't get it, etc. etc. Insert the common counter-arguments. :D

Kage

Polaria
15-10-2010, 11:32
LOL. Well, that's obviously because you're not bright enough to "understand the system," or you haven't read the rules, you just don't get it, etc. etc. Insert the common counter-arguments. :D

Kage

I actually did figure out one possible explanation. Unfortunately it involved a rather unpleasant mental image of a games developer writing the rules while "fondling his bolter" in front of a full-size poster of an Ultramarine...

Col. Tartleton
16-10-2010, 17:07
I don't think 52,000 tons is that unreasonable. We're talking about Terminator Armor here. What's a hundred million pounds between friends?

If Calgar couldn't defeat Superman what kind of Darkseid clone is he?

http://cloudworld.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/darkseid_final_crises_4-1.jpg