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Nungunz
12-10-2010, 17:43
I guess this is more of a request for clarification than anything else. A few people debate that the 90 Degree move permitted during a charge still counts towards the movement required. (I would personally favor this as well).

Just looking to check my logic on the rules that do in fact show that the wheel is free. This is all assuming a successful charge:

1) Attacker Declares Charge
2) Defender Declares Reaction
3) Roll For Charge Range
4) Measure the distance between the attacker to defender (closest base-to-base distance)
5) Move Chargers (including wheel) - rules say that chargers now have unlimited movement (still have to hit the face they declared a charge against) as they have already been confirmed to be in charge range.

Since determining distance for charge range and whether or not a charge is successful happens before any movement (using shortest distance), the wheel is considered to be a freebie.

Atrahasis
12-10-2010, 17:46
Yes, that is correct. Once you've found the unit is in range, the distance the charger actually moves is irrelevant.

Greyfire
12-10-2010, 18:23
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for earlier this week, to make sure I had the sequence correct.

But why is the wheel still here? If it's just pick the unit up and place them in contact because the target is within charge range on the diagonal why bother to mention the wheel at all? :confused:

I'm confused between the level of abstraction and reality they are going for. It feels like the wheel was left in just because old timers expect wheeling to matter since we've always had it. Two wheels of 1" would cause a failed charge but one wheel of 12" (for a 10 wide horde) followed by 14" of straight movement is fine?

I keep thinking I'm reading this wrong.

Korraz
12-10-2010, 18:29
Because you may only wheel once and there are situations where this disables a charge.
For example, if there is something that blocks the way, but not the LOS of the Attacker.

Atrahasis
12-10-2010, 18:30
The wheel is still important because the unit must still be able to physically move into contact.

Simply being in range is not enough for the charge to complete, the unit must be able to actually move along the table top in a legal manner and reach its target. The limit to 90 degrees is to prevent excessive "tactical wheels" against war machines etc.

decker_cky
12-10-2010, 18:31
The wheel is important because you could be in range, but require two wheels to reach the unit. Here's an extreme example of a strange charge that's perfectly legal in the current rules:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee10/deckerCKY/longflankcharge.gif

If there were a small piece of impassable terrain which prevented that wide wheel (flush with the rear of the slaves) and the stormvermin were an inch further forward, then the knights couldn't reach the flank and therefore would fail at charging the slaves.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 18:41
Actually this can also be an example of what it can prevent too. You can only have ONE wheel. If the chaos knights were just a SMIDGE over to the left, then they wouldn't be able to get past the Stormvermin without wheeling to the right, which would make it impossible to charge the Slaves in the flank as you'd need that wheel to the left to make it.

Atrahasis
12-10-2010, 18:54
Nah, they'd still be able to charge, just not into the rear ranks like that -- they'd wheel left such that their front right corner touches the corner of the slaves nearest the Stormvermin, and then align.

It would be a silly charge in that case, but a legal charge.

Mr_Rose
12-10-2010, 19:01
I guess this is more of a request for clarification than anything else. A few people debate that the 90 Degree move permitted during a charge still counts towards the movement required. (I would personally favor this as well).

Just looking to check my logic on the rules that do in fact show that the wheel is free. This is all assuming a successful charge:

1) Attacker Declares Charge
2) Defender Declares Reaction
3) Roll For Charge Range
4) Measure the distance between the attacker to defender (closest base-to-base distance)
5) Move Chargers (including wheel) - rules say that chargers now have unlimited movement (still have to hit the face they declared a charge against) as they have already been confirmed to be in charge range.

Since determining distance for charge range and whether or not a charge is successful happens before any movement (using shortest distance), the wheel is considered to be a freebie.
Your sequence is slightly off; your 4 should be before your 1. That is, you can't declare a charge in the first place if you're outside your maximum possible range, and the only way to determine that is by measuring.
Everything else is right though.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 19:03
Nah, they'd still be able to charge, just not into the rear ranks like that -- they'd wheel left such that their front right corner touches the corner of the slaves nearest the Stormvermin, and then align.

It would be a silly charge in that case, but a legal charge.

It'd bring them (specifically their flank) in contact with the Stormvermin, the way it's drawn. I don't think that'd be legal unless both were charged... which is fishy as the slave's front is not in their arc. I don't think it could be done?

Atrahasis
12-10-2010, 19:06
They can make contact at an angle, and then the alignment move allows any and all units to move to accommodate it.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 19:10
Wait, what? Where does it say that?

decker_cky
12-10-2010, 19:11
You could contact the slaves at an angle, and because the stormvermin prevent you from closing the door, the slaves would have to close the door and would wheel forward to meet the knights. Both would have to wheel a big....I think it'd be possible to be *just* out of contact with the stormvermin with a clip.

Not a good idea for the knights though. :P

Greyfire
12-10-2010, 19:29
Ok, my more lengthy posting no longer needs to be posted. Only two bits I can add.

First, why would two wheels matter? That's my (original) question, but it's only an academic one really. I mean as long as GW decided that the first wheel shouldn't be considered part of our movement/strategy why didn't they go all the way. We could just make sure there's some path that has enough room and go base to base, with either side doing the final wheel.

Second, does it seem odd that on a failed charge the unit must move by the shortest distance possible but on success we have lots more freedom? Sometimes I think they just assumed we would charge the closes point and forgot to include that as a rule. The sample diagram decker_cky provided really is the best example I've seen. I wish GW would use "real world" diagrams like that and not just the simple cases.

Thanks again for the help guys. I do appreciate it, and the discussion. I usually get something that makes my game better, and this is another good example.

Korraz
12-10-2010, 19:56
Because you do not magically teleport to your enemy. If you are running at full speed, waving weapons and shouting unruly things at that goblin over there, sophisticated maneuvers aren't that easy. The current "For practical purpose you have unlimited charge range, but only one wheel" is most likely a product of the attempt to streamline the movement and to motivate people to charge.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2010, 20:08
You could contact the slaves at an angle, and because the stormvermin prevent you from closing the door, the slaves would have to close the door and would wheel forward to meet the knights. Both would have to wheel a big....I think it'd be possible to be *just* out of contact with the stormvermin with a clip.
Hmm, maybe. It would be fishy in the extreme.

Because you do not magically teleport to your enemy. If you are running at full speed, waving weapons and shouting unruly things at that goblin over there, sophisticated maneuvers aren't that easy. The current "For practical purpose you have unlimited charge range, but only one wheel" is most likely a product of the attempt to streamline the movement and to motivate people to charge.
It also minimises player error. Whether a unit is in charge range or not is typically game critical. Measuring directly from unit to unit is easy to be precise about. Measuring game-critical charge distances that take wheels into account is very difficult, many an in-game argument has started over that in previous editions.