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View Full Version : Misscasts vs forced rolls on the miscast table



Rake
13-10-2010, 10:57
Ok, this has been nagging me for a while. The Ring of Hotek states that any wizard who rolls a double must roll on the miscast table. Not suffer a miscast. But roll on the miscast table and apply result. And its been errataed. Twice. With no change... Is this deliberate or a misstype? Cause the way its written it bypasses a lot of High Elf/Lizardman cheese. Same applies to Pandemonium.

Lex
13-10-2010, 15:02
Hmm, interesting query. Not sure it would bypass the LM and HE stuff though. I believe Teclis is worded that he ignores the "effects" of miscast once per magic phase. The table is the effect of a miscast. I think most items/abilities are similarly worded. I think it is just poor wording by GW in an attempt to make it absolutely clear you don't get IF.

Edit: I play DE and I'd love it to bypass those types of shinanegans given the bit of a nerfing it took, but I won't be trying it in a game.

a18no
13-10-2010, 20:01
Hmm, interesting query. Not sure it would bypass the LM and HE stuff though. I believe Teclis is worded that he ignores the "effects" of miscast once per magic phase. The table is the effect of a miscast. I think most items/abilities are similarly worded. I think it is just poor wording by GW in an attempt to make it absolutely clear you don't get IF.

Edit: I play DE and I'd love it to bypass those types of shinanegans given the bit of a nerfing it took, but I won't be trying it in a game.

Actually, the ruling for Teclis say (when considering the FAQ):

Teclis may ignore the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn. The spell is still cast with irresistible force, but Teclis is able to dissipate the magical energies harmlessly and suffers no ill effects.

And the ring:


Any Wizard (friend or foe) within 12" of the
wearer, attempting to cast a spell must roll on the Miscast table
on any roll of a double. Note that this will still only cast a spell
with irresistible force on a roll of double 6

The second part say that a spell is cast with irresistible force, but in the first part they never say that the spell is cast with a miscast, but that they roll on the table... purpose or just an error?? Don't know, but for rule lawyer, they could argue that Teclis ignore his own miscast, but can't be safe from a roll on the miscast table, since it's not a miscast, just a roll on a certain table.

I'll continue to play it that Teclis will ignore the first though.

Lex
13-10-2010, 20:20
...but can't be safe from a roll on the miscast table, since it's not a miscast, just a roll on a certain table.


The difficulty is this is all a miscast is in 8th edition. I guess the real question then becomes if something meets the definition of a term, does it make it that term?

Lord_Elric
14-10-2010, 04:10
Teclis is quite a difficult example when considering the ring of hotek as doesnt her IF on any roll of a double but only miscasts on a roll of double 6. therefore the 2 rules directly conflict with each other
im guessing its just GWs general wording and just means u suffer a miscast given gw's writing cock ups in many other rules i dont see them having the ability to put such a subtle exception in the army book lol

CaliforniaGamer
14-10-2010, 05:16
wow now that I read it, Ring of Hotek seems to be immune to Cupped Hands as there isnt a Miscast to transfer per se.

Rake
14-10-2010, 09:46
Yeah. See what i mean? I lean towards RAI but in certain overpowered cases I have no problem leaning towards the RAW if it nerfs things like cupped hands, and irresistible magic on doubles. Another point that was brought up is does ring of hotek cancel teclis, powerscroll and book of hoeth shchenanigans by saying IF only on a 6,6? Roll off? What happens?

theorox
14-10-2010, 10:03
Who cares about the wording? It seems like an oversight.

To me it makes most sense to treat it like a miscast.

Theo

a18no
14-10-2010, 15:38
Who cares about the wording? It seems like an oversight.

To me it makes most sense to treat it like a miscast.

Theo

You're right, and i'll continue to play it like that.

But you must assume that "rolling on the miscast table" is not "a miscast" per the RAW. So you could face some people that will argue with that.

kaulem
14-10-2010, 15:48
Wow! Is it just me who doesn't understand what the issue is? I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro world ;)

The black table isn't black, it's suffering from black paint?

geldedgoat
14-10-2010, 15:58
Wow! Is it just me who doesn't understand what the issue is? I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro world ;)

The black table isn't black, it's suffering from black paint?

No, it's not just you. And sigged. :D

kaulem
14-10-2010, 16:09
No, it's not just you. And sigged. :D

Woohoo, 1st time sigged!

Lord_Elric
14-10-2010, 22:10
I think concerning the ring of hotek then both rules would come into play so if something says u IF on a double but not MC and ring says u MC on double but not IF then u IF and MC on any roll of a double id say.........

TheDarkDaff
15-10-2010, 05:06
Wow! Is it just me who doesn't understand what the issue is? I feel like I'm in some kind of bizarro world ;)

The black table isn't black, it's suffering from black paint?

To borrow your analogue of a black table as the miscast table. When you get a black card (a miscast) you roll on the black table (miscast table). The Ring of Hotek does not give you a black card but makes you roll on the black table. Cupped Hands and Teclis's ability pass on the black card but in the rings case there is no black card to pass on (or ignore).

To get back to the normal Warhammer words:
(a) Cupped hands lets you pass on a miscast
(b) Teclis can ignore his first miscast
(c) The Ring of Hotek does not make you miscast, it just makes you roll on the miscast table

So in a very technical sense, if you roll a double near the ring you don't actually ever miscast but you do have to roll on the miscast table. And without having a miscast you can't activate Teclis's abilty or Cupped hands.

kaulem
15-10-2010, 13:37
To borrow your analogue of a black table as the miscast table. When you get a black card (a miscast) you roll on the black table (miscast table). The Ring of Hotek does not give you a black card but makes you roll on the black table. Cupped Hands and Teclis's ability pass on the black card but in the rings case there is no black card to pass on (or ignore).

To get back to the normal Warhammer words:
(a) Cupped hands lets you pass on a miscast
(b) Teclis can ignore his first miscast
(c) The Ring of Hotek does not make you miscast, it just makes you roll on the miscast table

So in a very technical sense, if you roll a double near the ring you don't actually ever miscast but you do have to roll on the miscast table. And without having a miscast you can't activate Teclis's abilty or Cupped hands.

I believe that this interpretation is splitting hairs...

If all the rules needed to be clear at that level, it would take decades to get a rulebook released.

Hell, even the US constitution isn't that precise!

Lord_Elric
15-10-2010, 14:38
Hell, even the US constitution isn't that precise!

Lol i like that your on a roll here lol sigged!

Elyssia
15-10-2010, 16:05
To get back to the normal Warhammer words:
(a) Cupped hands lets you pass on a miscast
(b) Teclis can ignore his first miscast
(c) The Ring of Hotek does not make you miscast, it just makes you roll on the miscast table

So in a very technical sense, if you roll a double near the ring you don't actually ever miscast but you do have to roll on the miscast table. And without having a miscast you can't activate Teclis's abilty or Cupped hands.

If you all want to get 'wacky with wording', I'll add one.

Ring of Hotek forces the wizard to roll on the miscast table. In a 'just a silly' argument, you can state, that rolling on the miscast table is an action in itself and has no effect.

Example:
A- 'Roll a die'
B- 'Ok, now what'
A- 'Nothing, you had to roll a die'.

The rulebook specifies, that in the case of a miscast, you must roll on the miscast table to see what happens to the wizard. Ring of hotek doesn't add the 'what happens to him'-part (which the rulebook does specify for miscast) and by logic (just a strong as your silly argument), you don't need to apply the result, because nothing was stated about applying the result to the wizard, he only needed to roll on the chart.

Congratulations, Ring of Hotek is now a useless item. :rolleyes:

T10
15-10-2010, 16:20
Ok, this has been nagging me for a while. The Ring of Hotek states that any wizard who rolls a double must roll on the miscast table. Not suffer a miscast. But roll on the miscast table and apply result.

The rule book does not suggest that fine distinction between "suffering a miscast" (and thus having to roll on the miscast table) and "rolling on the miscast table".

I'm pretty sure, though, that I can argue that a wizard subject to an effect from the miscast table can be considered to be "suffering"... :)

-T10

a18no
15-10-2010, 16:23
The rule book does not suggest that fine distinction between "suffering a miscast" (and thus having to roll on the miscast table) and "rolling on the miscast table".

I'm pretty sure, though, that I can argue that a wizard subject to an effect from the miscast table can be considered to be "suffering"... :)

-T10

That's perfectly fine for me, but it goes in the same weird topic as the dispel on 15+ a remain in play boosted purple sun!!!

(don't argue on that last one please, I don't want to start that discuss overhere too)

Lord_Elric
15-10-2010, 16:45
That's perfectly fine for me, but it goes in the same weird topic as the dispel on 15+ a remain in play boosted purple sun!!!

(don't argue on that last one please, I don't want to start that discuss overhere too)

ive not seen this thread but may have u ask why are the rules for that unclear sorry lol

T10
15-10-2010, 17:05
That's perfectly fine for me, but it goes in the same weird topic as the dispel on 15+ a remain in play boosted purple sun!!!

(don't argue on that last one please, I don't want to start that discuss overhere too)

Of course it's a dispel on 15+. It't the minimum casting value listed in the spell's description.

If you didn't want to discuss it then why did you bring it up?

It's like showing up at a [insert religious/political/national faction] gathering and stating "The [insert genocidal atrocity/health reform/them losing the war] was way cool! But please, let's not discuss this now. We've got this [insert ceremony/rally/their unconditional surrender] to do first! Party on!"

-T10

Lord_Elric
15-10-2010, 20:26
reading the rule i personaly dont think it is and again ill be told im wrong cus im making sense but youd have to dispel it at the value requird to cast the spell not the roll that u rolled so if u cast the boosted version youd need to roll the minimum casting value needed to cast the boosted spell duh only a rules nazi would read it other wise

for example im not sure weather the situation exists but the rules shall be the same none the less

spells like those for slann or vamppires that have 4-5 levels to cast at say 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 now say for example a spells such as this has the remains in play rule (though im sure such a rule doesnt exists but non the less) so your saying that if u cast the level 25 version of the spell youd only need a dispel roll of 5 to dispel it GW does some unclear rules at time though to any sensible person this one isnt.

major soma
15-10-2010, 20:41
To borrow your analogue of a black table as the miscast table. When you get a black card (a miscast) you roll on the black table (miscast table). The Ring of Hotek does not give you a black card but makes you roll on the black table. Cupped Hands and Teclis's ability pass on the black card but in the rings case there is no black card to pass on (or ignore).

To get back to the normal Warhammer words:
(a) Cupped hands lets you pass on a miscast
(b) Teclis can ignore his first miscast
(c) The Ring of Hotek does not make you miscast, it just makes you roll on the miscast table

So in a very technical sense, if you roll a double near the ring you don't actually ever miscast but you do have to roll on the miscast table. And without having a miscast you can't activate Teclis's abilty or Cupped hands.

By that reckoning the lore of life spell throne of vines won't protect you either.

Warboss Doink
15-10-2010, 20:55
reading the rule i personaly dont think it is and again ill be told im wrong cus im making sense but youd have to dispel it at the value requird to cast the spell not the roll that u rolled so if u cast the boosted version youd need to roll the minimum casting value needed to cast the boosted spell duh only a rules nazi would read it other wise

for example im not sure weather the situation exists but the rules shall be the same none the less

spells like those for slann or vamppires that have 4-5 levels to cast at say 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 now say for example a spells such as this has the remains in play rule (though im sure such a rule doesnt exists but non the less) so your saying that if u cast the level 25 version of the spell youd only need a dispel roll of 5 to dispel it GW does some unclear rules at time though to any sensible person this one isnt.

Sorry for the spill people. We found a leak in one of the other threads and it's making a mess in here.

Move along, there's nothing to see here.

*Drags a bag behind him which emits mumbling sounds and kicking motions*