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View Full Version : How willing were the Necrontyr?



Jack of Blades
14-10-2010, 19:01
I can't remember where I read it, but I read that the Necrontyr were only slowly degenerated into the completely emotionless machines they are now. Up until that point, I thought the change had been instantaneous - but it appears to have been caused by their necrodermis bodies constantly being repaired, although a slow drain would probably still be along with that. That brings up the question of what the Necrontyr thought about it.

When they found out that the Nightbringer had been the cause of their horrible and short lives all along, they seem to have concluded it like one would conclude a simple fact rather than realising how misguided they had been in their fury against the Old Ones and become bent on destroying the C'tan. Rather, the effect seems to have been the opposite: they were so short-sighted, spiteful and unrational that they came to regard the C'tan as a way to destroy the Old Ones. This makes me think that the Necrontyr weren't all that thoughtful.

But after that, when they were themselves transmitted into the necrodermis bodies, did they continue to go along with it or were they enslaved and forced to do the C'tans' bidding lest they be destroyed until their minds degenerated into cattle and then to nothing? Judging by the way the Necrontyr reacted about the Nightbringer, I'm guessing they'd go ''look how screwed we are now! GRRR! take it out on the Old Ones!'' or something like that.

What did the Necrontyr think? no matter how flawed their thought process appears to have been - at least the decisions they made - were they victims or volunteers? Would you despise them or is it more ''cause and effect'' than malevolent intent?

Hendarion
14-10-2010, 19:07
They were victims and volunteers at the same time.

Jack of Blades
14-10-2010, 19:11
They were victims and volunteers at the same time.

That's what I thought the first guy would say :p. To elaborate, were they victims or volunteers when they found out what happened to them if they entered those necrodermis bodies? did they go ''kill for the C'tan!'' or ''crap! must... save... rac-BZZZP emotional shutdown completed''? Or if they have as flawed a thought process as I suspect they do, did they simply think that it was a bad side effect but don't appear to have concluded anything more than ''Kill the Old Ones!... I'm being emotionally shut down. Kill the Old Ones!'' and carried on with it anyway (like their encounter with the Nightbringer and the following revelation about the misery they lived in), unlike how a human would react: ''THOSE ********!''?

Stonerhino
15-10-2010, 01:44
When you talk about the C'Tan you have to remember and especialy about the Nightbringer. They are gods. When they first got Nightbringer into his body. He went nuts untill the Necrontyr desided to worship him.

Then when not all of the Necrontyr "Chose" to become Necrons. The Deciever, stepped in and convinced them.

So, the Necrontyr only really kind of had a choice. But there are the ones who had the illusion that they had the choice. All the others where victims.

Inquisitor Engel
15-10-2010, 02:23
Don't forget that the individual Necrons had a say, the first, most influential individuals, became Lords, which have much more sentience and autonomy than simple Warriors. The next batch to decide became Immortals and probably Destroyers and so on and so forth.

Those that are Warriors probably were forced by their already-assimilated brethren, being at the lowest rung.

Lord Damocles
15-10-2010, 10:49
Well, we know that not all of the Necrontyr were on board with the 'transference from flesh to machine' plan from the outset:

...but despite his [Deciever's] honeyed words the Necrontyr were riven by doubt at the prospect... / ...it lured the unbelievers into the clutches of the faithful... / ...All were siezed by the believers and delivered to their fate... Codex: Necrons, pg.31


We also know that the very act of transference lessened their minds:

The Necrons' story is one of an ancient betrayal. Aeons ago, the Necrontyr race clung to their short lives in fear of oblivion at the hands of their massive and ravaging star. They pushed the limits of science in an effort to lengthen their lives, but to no avail. Then, the star gods known as the C'tan were discovered, offering immortality at a terrible price.
The Necrontyr agreed, and their souls were encased in living metal bodies. What they did not know was that the process dulled their minds and senses so they became slaves of the C'tan.
'Who Are The Necrons?' from GW website


And then we know that sucessive transferences may weaken them further:

'Such seeming inviolability is not without its limitations, and each act of transference exacerbates any weaknesses in the Necron's engrams. A Necron that has died several hundred times will often be little more than a shambling automaton.'
Ruleboom (5th ed.), pg.178-9


We also know that being held in stasis for millennia has taken a toll on the Necrontyr:

'The Necron Lords are the driving force behind the awakening. Of as high a rank in death as they were in life, the Necron Lords benefit from more sophisticated artificial bodies and stasis tombs than their vassals, allowing them to sleep through the millennia unplagued by the slow decay which has taken a terrible toll from others of their kind. As a result, Necron Lords retain the personality and memory denied to their minions.'
Rulebook (5th ed.), pg.179



Were the Necronty happy with their lot immediately after transference? Unknown. Without knowing to what extent their minds were dulled, or to what extent they were enslaved to the C'tan we can't say. Even if there were those Necrontyr who 'rebelled' against the C'tan after transference, there is no evidence to suggest that they still exist, or that they existed during the war(s) against the Old Ones and their spawn.
We might assume that if there were Necrontyr who did retain free will and wished to rebel against what had been done to them, they could have been neutralised or otherwise subdued reasonably easily.

Polaria
15-10-2010, 11:39
Also its worth mentioning that the process of the Necrontyr cultural evolution did not probably stop right then and there. What they thought then (millions of year ago) and what they think now is probably very different. From xenology we at know that at least one Lord talks of the more machine like, emotionless Necrons quite adimiringly, calling them "pure" and "undistracted by personality". See my sig below :chrome:

El_Machinae
15-10-2010, 13:49
Well, it's probably a lot like how vaccinations go in the modern day. There are early adopters, and then there becomes increasing social pressure to take a vaccine.

Of course, since the process of becoming an AI probably is pretty scary, there may have been some force involved in 'late-adopters'

witchunter180
15-10-2010, 14:18
Another factor I've wondered about was their hatred for the Old Ones race. (If I'm out of chronological order, please correct me) I hate to reference Star Wars, but could it be comparable to the Sith, in the fact that their hatred was such that they gave up most or all desires to maintain their old bodies in pursuit of the Old Ones' destruction. Did the hatred make them so blind that they couldn't ignore the "man behind the curtain" as it were?

Mr_Rose
15-10-2010, 21:28
Another factor I've wondered about was their hatred for the Old Ones race. (If I'm out of chronological order, please correct me) I hate to reference Star Wars, but could it be comparable to the Sith, in the fact that their hatred was such that they gave up most or all desires to maintain their old bodies in pursuit of the Old Ones' destruction. Did the hatred make them so blind that they couldn't ignore the "man behind the curtain" as it were?
Well the thing is that they never liked their old bodies in the first place; the reason they were so advanced technologically was because they desperately wanted to make themselves immortal (much like the Old Ones effectively were) so when the C'tan offered them the chance...

Jack of Blades
15-10-2010, 21:31
Good input... keep it coming.


Well the thing is that they never liked their old bodies in the first place; the reason they were so advanced technologically was because they desperately wanted to make themselves immortal (much like the Old Ones effectively were) so when the C'tan offered them the chance...

Almost makes me pity the Necrons. They were caught between a horrifying ancient malevolent sadistic godlike entity, and nothing... all they really wanted was proper lives :(

Gazak Blacktoof
16-10-2010, 09:20
Necons are indeed a tragic race. Their ultimate goal of immortality is burdened with the chains of slavery and the loss of their identity. In the same vein, their great work, if completed, may save the universe from the predations of the warp but leave it at the mercy of the C'Tan, empowering their enslavers.

Lothlanathorian
16-10-2010, 09:46
They were caught between a horrifying ancient malevolent sadistic godlike entity, and nothing...


No, they weren't. Their sun caused their problems. The Nightbringer was feeding on their sun. At that point, he was unaware of the Necrontyr. He was no more molevolent than you are when you eat a bowl of cereal in the morning. He was no more sadistic than the wind. Their star's radiation gave them the physical problems they had, not the being that, by cosmic chance, happened to be feeding on that star's energy.

They discovered him, then others. They built them bodies and found a way to place them in it so that they could be used as weapons against the Old Ones. I feel sorry for the C'tan. The C'tan were beings of great, but unfocused power and the Necrontyr took them from their natural state of being and weaponized them. The Necrontyr were arrogant and got their deserved fate. A slow decay into nothingness instead of the peace of the grave.

Hendarion
16-10-2010, 10:18
They built them bodies and found a way to place them in it so that they could be used as weapons against the C'tan.
The way you wrote it, it sounds like:
"The Necrontyr built the C'tan a body and found a way to place them inside, so that the bodies could be used as a weapon against the C'tan."
But since when is the necrodermis in any way reducing the power of a C'tan or a weapon against him?

Quetch
16-10-2010, 12:54
I think he meant to say "old ones".

Jack of Blades
16-10-2010, 13:49
Necons are indeed a tragic race. Their ultimate goal of immortality is burdened with the chains of slavery and the loss of their identity. In the same vein, their great work, if completed, may save the universe from the predations of the warp but leave it at the mercy of the C'Tan, empowering their enslavers.

Well, if their great work succeeded it would also reduce everything with a warp connection into a mindless slave. That's the other reason why the C'tan want to do it.


No, they weren't. Their sun caused their problems. The Nightbringer was feeding on their sun. At that point, he was unaware of the Necrontyr. He was no more molevolent than you are when you eat a bowl of cereal in the morning. He was no more sadistic than the wind. Their star's radiation gave them the physical problems they had, not the being that, by cosmic chance, happened to be feeding on that star's energy.

They discovered him, then others. They built them bodies and found a way to place them in it so that they could be used as weapons against the C'tan. I feel sorry for the C'tan. The C'tan were beings of great, but unfocused power and the Necrontyr took them from their natural state of being and weaponized them. The Necrontyr were arrogant and got their deserved fate. A slow decay into nothingness instead of the peace of the grave.

Actually it's clearly said that it was the Nightbringer who was behind the periodic massive radiation waves of their star, the star itself wasn't unstable by nature. Yes, and when he became aware of the Necrontyr he killed them until they convinced him that worship and the rest of the lives of the galaxy was better than killing them.

That they were indeed malevolent can be estabilished by how they reacted when they were brought into the galactic fold. The fluff itself tells us that they grew fond of various things namely sadism, slavery and being worshipped. In other words, that was their personality - which wasn't able to show itself until they had other beings to interact with. You can't enslave a star, unless your brain is off in lala-land.

If Nightbringer could've discovered and done what he did to the Necrontyr earlier then he would have, because doing what he did was the C'tan personality. They are living beings with a decision-making process, not a force of nature.

Lothlanathorian
17-10-2010, 08:39
I think he meant to say "old ones".


I did. Fixed that post.



Actually it's clearly said that it was the Nightbringer who was behind the periodic massive radiation waves of their star, the star itself wasn't unstable by nature.


Can you provide a page number and quote?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-10-2010, 09:23
Well, if their great work succeeded it would also reduce everything with a warp connection into a mindless slave. That's the other reason why the C'tan want to do it.

I don't think that's stated anywhere. Those in the presence of blanks don't become mindless, nor do the people in the Cadian gate or on other planets where there are necron artefacts designed to push back the warp.

Jack of Blades
17-10-2010, 11:32
I distinctly remember reading so but it was online, IIRC at either Lexicanum or the wikia. But I can't seem to find it again, so until I find it, you guys are right.

Lothlanathorian
17-10-2010, 12:49
I distinctly remember reading so but it was online, IIRC at either Lexicanum or the wikia. But I can't seem to find it again, so until I find it, you guys are right.

I let a friend borrow my Necron Codex so I can't check. That sounded like something I've never heard before, but I also tend to suffer from Old Gamer Syndrom.

Col. Tartleton
17-10-2010, 13:05
I still like my radical and largely baseless theory that the Eldar are the Stonemen and the Necrons are the Ironmen and that the Emperor is an Old One taking the form of man and that the Eldar had ten thousand years to invent the story of the War in Heaven as being millions of years earlier instead of just the Age of Strife. After all, the Emperor defeated the Dragon. Sounds Old One like to me.

I don't like how everyone looks human. I want a cop out.

Plus 40k is shadowy enough that I can fluff things that way and barely contradict anything.
:D

If so, the Necrons were always machines who invented the tale of betrayal after being rebooted by the C'tan who were concerned with the destruction of their old one masters, the Eldar (Stone Men), and corrupted away from the ways of the Golden Men (Old Ones.)

El_Machinae
17-10-2010, 13:46
They don't even have to be specifically the people in the myth, merely that the cycle of Stone Men, Iron Men, etc. repeats itself.
Which kinda makes sense, since you're going to commonly have 'spiritual technology' and 'AI technology' breakthroughs in a place like the 40k Universe.

Seeking technological breakthroughs to cure aging sounds ... familiar to me:angel:

Lord Damocles
17-10-2010, 18:37
They were caught between a horrifying ancient malevolent sadistic godlike entity, and nothing...

No, they weren't.

Actually it's clearly said that it was the Nightbringer who was behind the periodic massive radiation waves of their star, the star itself wasn't unstable by nature.

Can you provide a page number and quote?

I distinctly remember reading so but it was online, IIRC at either Lexicanum or the wikia. But I can't seem to find it again, so until I find it, you guys are right.

I let a friend borrow my Necron Codex so I can't check. That sounded like something I've never heard before, but I also tend to suffer from Old Gamer Syndrom.

'The Necrontyr were such a race, born under a fearsome, scourging star, which uncaringly drove their evolution forth with atomic winds and plasma storms. What little information is known of the Necrontyr tells that their lives were short and uncertain, their bodies blighted and consumed by the searing caress of their cruel star. They were a murcurial, morbid folk, their precious lifespans riven from cradle to grave with constant loss.
/ Their star still reigned over them as life-giver and death-god combined'.
Codex: Necrons, pg.24

'The very star under which the Necrontyr race lived their brief, morbid lives gave birth to the vast star-spanning energy that was the Nightbringer. In their quest for a weapon with which to defeat the Old Ones, the Necrontyr turned to the mighty coalescent energy feeding within the photosphere of their star.'
Codex: Necrons, pg.28

Jack of Blades
17-10-2010, 18:46
Nice little re-arrangement of quotes who have no relation to each other you did there, although I can see your point. Nevertheless, I do remember where I read that:


The Nightbringer was the first C'tan encountered by the Necrontyr beause it was found feeding on the very star that blasted the Necrontyr's homeworld and was probably responsible for the periodic radiation surges that so shortened the lifespans of the Necrontyr people.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/The_Nightbringer

Lord Damocles
17-10-2010, 18:57
Nice little re-arrangement of quotes who have no relation to each other you did there, although I can see your point.
They're related to each other in that they both deal with the relationship between the Necrontyr, Nightbringer, and the Necrontyr's star.

Given that you and Lothlanathorian had been going backwards and forwards on the topic without having anything to support your arguements, I thought that the only vaguely relevant passages from the codex might be helpful (I can't help it if the exact point is never actually adressed in a canon source...)



Nevertheless, I do remember where I read that:
Speculation by someone on Wiki is hardly a reliable source. I only skimmed the Nightbringer entry, but was still able to spot that there were a number of laughable inaccuracies.

The list of sources given at the end is also woefully inadequet.

Iracundus
17-10-2010, 20:21
Lord Damocles is right in this. From looking at the Necron Codex, those are the relevant passages that were quoted, and they only really deal with the Necrontyr, their star, and their star's radiation being responsible for their physical condition. Nowhere is it stated that the Nightbringer was directly responsible. Being born from that same star is a different thing from actually being the one responsible for the star's radiation output.

A fan's speculation in a Wiki entry is not a canonical or reliable source. Like Lexicanum which so many others in other threads have tried to rely on, the Wiki entries have a tendency to mix speculation in with the facts without differentiating between the two or more precisely citing their sources.

Stonerhino
17-10-2010, 20:41
I had a good laugh reading that wiki.

The author made many mistakes and included some of their own fluff. While some of the invented information is reasonable, it's still fan writen and not cannon.

Jack of Blades
18-10-2010, 14:51
All right I made a mistake, 'twas the Star's fault and Nightbringer is... innocent :evilgrin:

Jonman
18-10-2010, 20:03
They were tricked and lost all individuality. Only the necron lords know who they are and are bound to serve the c'ran and reap their harvest. Not willing.

El_Machinae
19-10-2010, 12:56
That's my feel too.
If the 'original volunteers' seemed to benefit from the process, there might not have been a mass rebellion (that then required putting down). However, it might have just been a literal enslavement of the race by forcing the people into camps and then turning on a factory.

Tactical Retreat!
19-10-2010, 14:54
How willing? Well, I heard that if you sweet talked them a little and slipped them a few drinks, they were pretty easy.

mob16151
22-10-2010, 00:14
So a little OT but does anyone ever feel like the Tau are a Necrontyr remnant?

noobzilla
22-10-2010, 00:52
So a little OT but does anyone ever feel like the Tau are a Necrontyr remnant?

No, Necrons all made the choice that affects their own species. Tau are more "JOIN US OR DIE!!!!!" (With a smiling face of course) towards OTHER species.

Stonerhino
22-10-2010, 03:54
So a little OT but does anyone ever feel like the Tau are a Necrontyr remnant?I like to believe that the Tau are their own unique race. With no ties to anyone else.

But I have put up the arguement before that the Tau where created using Necrontyr DNA. A plot by the Deciever to have a non-Necron force based on a race he knows everything about. Instead of trying to find a race and bend them to his will.

Sadly, I always said that we will find out the truth. If the Tau Empire is threatened by a force capable of destroying them. And now we have a Tyranid hive fleet that attacked the empire and who jumped in a ending it???... The Necrons.

mob16151
22-10-2010, 04:03
Sadly, I always said that we will find out the truth. If the Tau Empire is threatened by a force capable of destroying them. And now we have a Tyranid hive fleet that attacked the empire and who jumped in a ending it???... The Necrons.

I had forgot about that. But your right that's slightly suspicious. And them being some sort of Necrontyr offshoot/remnant, would explain there whole master of technology thing.

Polaria
22-10-2010, 07:04
What did the Necrontyr think? no matter how flawed their thought process appears to have been - at least the decisions they made - were they victims or volunteers? Would you despise them or is it more ''cause and effect'' than malevolent intent?

As I see it by the time the final change was complete the C'Tan were worshipped as the Gods of the Necrontyr. The decision to go metal was made by the religious-political elite that became Necron Lords and the favoured ones who became Immortals and Destroyers.

"Lords and Ladies" were the nobility who supported the change, because they gained most from it. They had the best stasis chambers and most advanced living metal bodies so they emerged from the change with their personalities and minds intact. They didn't lose much. Instead they gained virtual immortality.

"Favoured Ones" were the ones who jumped first to the chance of getting new bodies. They wer probably religious fanatics or trusted elite troops. Thats why they got better, bigger, more durable bodies. There is no indication, however, on how much personality they lost as time goes on... or if they even care.

Of the others (Flayed Ones, Warriors and Wraiths) we know very little. Maybe they were forced but forgot so much so fast that it didn't matter. Maybe they are pissed off but the Nodal Command System keeps them ensalved so totally that they simply don't have any choice.

Malagate
22-10-2010, 07:56
And now we have a Tyranid hive fleet that attacked the empire and who jumped in a ending it???... The Necrons.

Like that story in the Tyranid Codex, where a Tau planet is saved from the 'nids by Necrons from the planet's dead moon? Where the Necrons then make planetfall to be welcomed by the Tau, only for the Necrons to begin a Red Harvest starting with the resident Ethereal? Yeah, sounds like the Necrons really want to keep the Tau nice and safe to me :rolleyes:

As Polaria and those before him wrote, it's a mix of "woo, shiney metal bodies foreva!" and "Err wait what? Are we sure this is a good idea, hey where are you taking me?!...", also most Necrons definately do not have things like a personality or even memories, although they might have at least one feeling (unfortunately it's not love).

It does seem like the process is not perfect however, some lower ranked Necrons do seem to retain enough personality and memories to change them from regular warriors, or at least be too insane to be regular warriors (insert speculation on Flayed Ones and Wraiths here).

Oh and there's no explicitly mentioned link between the Nightbringer and the life destroying radiation that the Necrontyr experienced (although I do find it a bit weird that after the Necrontyr developed interstellar travel they still seemed to live short and painful lives, maybe they never made radiation shielding or didn't like any planet that was green and cheerful instead of a radioactive wasteland?), and you've got to remember by the time the Necrontyr found him they had already been beaten back to their crappy planet by the Old Ones and were desperate enough to take a chance with anything.

I actually find the Necrontyr sympathetic and the Old Ones kind-of ********, I mean they could have been BFF if they helped out the Necrontyr but were seemingly aloof and patronising towards very short lived scabbie guys who obviously envied the ability to live longer than a few decades.