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Maskedman5oh4
16-10-2010, 04:56
Hi guys,

I have not even cracked the cover to the 8th edition rule book;however, I have began purchasing a new WoC army. I plan on using atleast two blocks of 40 marauders (most likely with GWs). a large block of warriors- probably with 2HW- and I was considering ranking some cavalry. I have 10 Marauder horsmen and was think of running a unit of 5x3 with spears and light armor - making them medium cav. If anyone cares to offer some suggestions as to the ranking and armament of my troops, I would really appreciate it.

sulla
16-10-2010, 05:49
The great weapon marauders (usually with the mark of khorne) are pretty much no brainers in the WoC list. Warriors with either xhw or the more powerful halberd with MoT and the ward save banner or MoN and the frenzy banner are all very powerful choices. The marauder horse are ok but I don't think I'd bother making them medium. Fast cav get a free 12" move before the game starts now. Perfect for war machine hunting. Take 3 units instead of one big one. You can even give them banners now; it doesn't hurt your list so badly when you lose them and they can help you win the blood and glory scenario.

Another popular choice is the hellcannon (or two). S5 templates make a mess of anything that might have been steadfast against your units, meaing they have to beat you in combat to stick around (unlikely, to say the least).

That sums up the no-brainers. For colour, your knights are still good, as are ogres and trools. All your special characters are good. Warshrines, while not being great value, are very chaotic, and with big units, can have very spectacular results. Characterwise, I would say try not to spend too much. It's usually better to have a few extra ranks of guys than an extra fighter character, or an extra hellcannon than one too many sorcerors; finding that balance will be your challenge.

Have fun. WoC are one of the more challenging forces to face out there in 8th edition.

Avian
16-10-2010, 06:00
Additional hand weapons is the worst setup for Warriors in most situations.

Maskedman5oh4
16-10-2010, 06:28
The great weapon marauders (usually with the mark of khorne)How does Mark of Slaanesh work in 8th? are pretty much no brainers in the WoC list. Warriors with either xhw or the more powerful halberd with MoT and the ward save banner or MoN and the frenzy banner are all very powerful choices. The marauder horse are ok but I don't think I'd bother making them medium. Fast cav get a free 12" move before the game starts now. Perfect for war machine hunting. Take 3 units instead of one big one. You can even give them banners now; it doesn't hurt your list so badly when you lose them and they can help you win the blood and glory scenario.

Another popular choice is the hellcannon (or two). S5 templates make a mess of anything that might have been steadfast against your units, meaing they have to beat you in combat to stick around (unlikely, to say the least).I could see myself going for 2 Hellcannon. Always wanted some artillery.

That sums up the no-brainers. For colour, your knights are still good, as are ogres and trools. I plan on always fielding a unit of 10 knights because they are nasty and in the fluff they are pillagers and conquerers.All your special characters are good. Warshrines, while not being great value, are very chaotic, and with big units, can have very spectacular results. Characterwise, I would say try not to spend too much. I think I will definitely make a warshrine.Click here to see my WiP Minotaur-slave unit filler. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279413)It's usually better to have a few extra ranks of guys than an extra fighter character, or an extra hellcannon than one too many sorcerors; finding that balance will be your challenge.I used to be mono-Tzeentch but I can cutback on sorcerers. I think I may get crazy and make a daemon prince start of the standard list.

Have fun. WoC are one of the more challenging forces to face out there in 8th edition.



Additional hand weapons is the worst setup for Warriors in most situations.

Could you provide alternative armament?

I had considered using all the lances from the knight box and some banner poles to make some halberd warriors. They seem like a strong choice. Or even GW warriors.

Avian's response are in real message format instead of reply-inserted-red-text-format because I have had some vodka.

danny-d-b
16-10-2010, 06:50
1. MOS is probibly the worst choice for troops right now due to the BSB allowing re-rolls for everything so its not realy needed

2.hell cannons are good especialy as the avrage warmashine hunters can't take them on

3. NEVER, NEVER field 10 knights in 1 units, 2 units of 5 are always better, after all you paying 200 points for an 5 extra S5 attacks, as you only get 1 attack from the back rank- if you want the extra attack get the MOK or the banner of rage

4. warshrines are cool especialy if you go down the valkia/chosen block/2 warshrines route-suposidly your garateed a 4+ ward save by turn 2

5. deamon princes are normaly not as effective as either chaos lords or sorcerer lords, but they still have there uses

6. for warriors the best set up is either 12 (frenzyed) warriors 6x2 with halbeds or 15 warriors of tzench with shields 5x3 (3+/5+)

and I wouldn't use red in future normaly thats assoncated with the mods of I rember right??

Avian
16-10-2010, 07:07
Could you provide alternative armament?

I had considered using all the lances from the knight box and some banner poles to make some halberd warriors. They seem like a strong choice. Or even GW warriors.
Basically anything else is workable. I'm a bit skeptical of great weapons nowadays since you now strike last when charging and against T3 guys with little armour it isn't needed over halberds, however, it really murders tougher guys.

I personally have one Slaaneshi (Slaanesh really isn't that bad - my knights of tzeentch have occasionally screwed up royally by failing Ld8 re-rollable LD tests, and it's very cheap) unit with halberds and shields and I'm making another one with the Mark of Tzeentch and shields.

sulla
16-10-2010, 20:51
MoNurgle, frenzy banner xhw is still not a dreadful choice, even if halberds are a little better. 4 attacks per man makes a hellova lot of output from the front rank. Works better with shadow mage support though, I suppose.

Avian
16-10-2010, 21:29
If you already have above average Attacks, but a mediocre Strength, boost your Strength instead of going for a further boost in Attacks (and vice-versa).

Thus anyone who already have 3 S4 attacks gets more out of +1S than +1A.

sulla
16-10-2010, 23:33
They're close enough in damage output that it's not gonna kill a players chances of winning if he fields some. Like I said, at least you have the lore of shadow to help out these days.

antihelten
17-10-2010, 09:06
If you already have above average Attacks, but a mediocre Strength, boost your Strength instead of going for a further boost in Attacks (and vice-versa).

Thus anyone who already have 3 S4 attacks gets more out of +1S than +1A.

Another problem with xhw is also that they only work on the front rank and not the supporting attacks, unlike halberds. so if you already have MoK it's usually a question of 6 extra attacks versus +1S to the 24 attacks you already have.

Badnames
25-10-2010, 18:39
The hellcannon is alright. The fact that it is a large target and can see anything is great, but I find it still has a pretty good fail rate even with the new rules and hardly scores 205+ pts worth in vps (if it misfires it can hurt your own side bad). I prefer to use the points elsewhere if the game is under 2k points.

John Vaughan
25-10-2010, 19:05
While I don't normally condone hordes of warriors due to the high point cost and lack of maneuverability, I will however throw out my "Unkillable" warriors unit:

36 Warriors w/Shields
-Command
-Frenzy Banner OR Rapturous Standard
-Mark of Tzeentch

BSB w/Blasted Standard

Chaos Lord, kitted to your choosing

I place both the BSB and Lord in the unit. Throughout the game, I use a pair of shrines to beef the unit. To make a point of their potency, I can say that they took on a horde of Minotaurs (who charged) with a Doombull and BSB, and won by a landslide (They did 21 wounds before the minotaurs could strike) (sure, they had +1 S and +1 T from the shrines, but that's beside the point). The 3+/5+ in close combat is also ridiculously useful, and makes excellent use of the 20 points it costs to give them the MOT.

As for Marauders horsemen, run them in units of 5, and harass stuff. They aren't the most potent unit (USUALLY. I had a unit of 15 flank charge through a whole skaven army back in 7th ed). Knights are an excellent choice, almost impossible to kill with the blasted standard + MOT (assuming the warriors don't have it). I recommend ensorcelled weapons.

As far as marauders go, just be careful. I've seen too many HUGE units of Ld7 models spooked off the board in ridiculous fashion. Have your general/BSB nearby at least.

Shizzbam
25-10-2010, 20:18
Personally when it comes to warriors I use one unit of 18 with the Mark of Slaanesh (funnily enough it has actually saved my bacon once or twice) and the banner of rage, armed with halberds and shields. The other unit is of 20 with the mark of Tzeentch and hand weapons and shields. These form my hammer and anvil respectively.

Then its two units of 5-6 Knights with the Mark of Khorne, 4 Ogres with great weapons and the Mark of Khorne and 30 Marauders armed with flails (I've had bad experiences hitting last with these guys so avoid great weapons) and ofcourse with the Mark of Khorne too.

All of this forms the base of my army to which all other units are simply there because I feel like it or its useful for the particular opponent. To date I've had very few losses with this set up and would recommend it.

On the other hand, I've recently been using an all Slaanesh cavalry based army (with a Demon Prince! :eek:) and had a surprising amount of success :D

John Vaughan
25-10-2010, 21:27
I like Tzeentch purist armies with shields. NOTHING DIES. It's a royal pain to fight, but a joy to use!

Oh, a word in your ear: One of my favorite combos for my Chaos Lords includes the common magic item that gives a 4+ ward save and the MOT. Mount him on a barded steed + shield, and you have a chaos lord with a 1+/3+ that's darn near impossible to kill, with plenty of points left for a weapon or something else.

The other (amusing) combo I use includes the use of the Father of Blades and the Armour of Damnation. "Dear sir, why in blazes do you keep hitting yourself??"

Shizzbam
25-10-2010, 21:30
Oh, a word in your ear: One of my favorite combos for my Chaos Lords includes the common magic item that gives a 4+ ward save and the MOT. Mount him on a barded steed + shield, and you have a chaos lord with a 1+/3+ that's darn near impossible to kill, with plenty of points left for a weapon or something else.


Personally I use a Sorcerer Lord with the Eye of Tzeentch riding around on a disk. The 3+ ward save makes him hard as nails to kill and the disk allows him to zip about the battlefield blasting the hell out of whatever he likes!

Leth Shyish'phak
25-10-2010, 22:12
I like Tzeentch purist armies with shields. NOTHING DIES. It's a royal pain to fight, but a joy to use!

I've been trying something like this too, works very well. Two big units of Warriors with shields, a big unit of Chosen (with a Warshrine) with favour of the gods + wailing banner to go for the 3+ ward save and a big unit (15 :evilgrin: ) Chaos Knights with the 4+ ward save against shooting.

As John said, NOTHING DIES. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

John Vaughan
25-10-2010, 23:20
Personally I use a Sorcerer Lord with the Eye of Tzeentch riding around on a disk. The 3+ ward save makes him hard as nails to kill and the disk allows him to zip about the battlefield blasting the hell out of whatever he likes!

While that is certainly practical for a disc rider, it makes little sense for a chaos lord. He'll want the 3+ in combat where it counts most for him.

Hashulaman
25-10-2010, 23:22
My favorite list im still toying with the Lords and Heroes, however I always take Warriors with MoT and shields. I don't believe in Halberds on Warriors, I went against them and my Tzeentch warriors beat the crap out of the Halberd warriors due to the shield and parry ward. I put halberds on my Chosen, partially because they are modeled with them, and also the favor of the gods with their free rolls makes up for the lack of the shield and parry. The main reason I won't take halberds because it would be a real pain to remove the shields and hand weapons from my wrarriors and replace them with Halberds. I have flail marauders I can use as GW

Speaking of Marauders, I take shield and Tzeentch with them. GW and khorne I'm working on with little sucess, will take me a while before I find a way to use them properly. Yes they have better stats for their points, but I've always seen them as a Tarpit, you hold up the enemy long enough to metaphoricaly break their jaw with a flank attack by something nasty like Warriors, knights or Trolls

Trolls are great BTW, I love those things, though you have to take throgg and keep them resonably cose so they don't fail stupidity. Aside from that they rip apart most units. My throgg unit was attacked on 3 sides by beastmen and over the course of a few player turns Throgg's unit fought their way to freedom.


I like Chosen personally, that is one unit I do put halberds on for above mentioned purpose. That and the Warshrine and Wailing banner with MoT, Increases chance of the 4+ ward/Stubborn signifigantly. I have thought of trying them with MoK, the BSB is always with them and that helps with controlling them until the right time to unleash them on an enemy unit.

You definatly want some magic in their, at least so they can carry the Infernal puppet. Even if you go magic lite you don't know if your opponent will unless their is list tailoring involved.:shifty: The puppet will make them nervous of miscasting and will be more cautious of what they do. Black toungue is ok but it's rare these days for my opponent to fail to meet the casting value, they seem to make it 80% of the time.

Shizzbam
25-10-2010, 23:28
While that is certainly practical for a disc rider, it makes little sense for a chaos lord. He'll want the 3+ in combat where it counts most for him.

Well yeah sure you'd want the Talisman of Preservation on a combat lord. I just take the Eye since its 20pts cheaper and my sorcerer won't see combat except in the direst circumstances. If I want a fighty lord though I take one with the mark of Khorne and the Crimson Armour of Dargen riding a Juggernaut and wielding a flail to go with my Knights of Khorne. So long as you keep him safe from shooting he's an absolute monster in combat.


The main reason I won't take halberds because it would be a real pain to remove the shields and hand weapons from my wrarriors and replace them with Halberds.

I'd probably feel the same, but luckily all my Chaos warriors are of the older variety, which came with the option for hand weapons and shields or halberds (though were nearly impossible to rank up nicely).

Hashulaman
25-10-2010, 23:34
Yea another reason, I get very frustrated trying to rank up my bloodletters because those long blades get in the way or knock the other models over. Hand weapon/shield or EhW is far easier for me hence why id rather go with EHW. Chosen come with halberds so I can do nothing, besides metal models are harder to convert.

John Vaughan
27-10-2010, 16:42
Oh, and giving the champion of the chosen unit the Favour of the Gods = AWESOMENESS. It guarantees you'll always get something every time you roll because of a shrine. So, take a pair of shrines and beef them. Your chances of rolling 12 is suddenly 1/6, instead of 1/36.

Seville
28-10-2010, 00:46
Additional hand weapons is the worst setup for Warriors in most situations.

LOL. Despite the fact that I proved, mathematically, that they actually outperformed the hallowed halberds in many situations. :rolleyes: But, we won't re-hash that thread, Avian. I don't have the time for it these days.

Halberds > AHW is nothing but "Warseer Wisdom".

In any case, arm them however you want. Warriors are monsters no matter what you do with them.

Avian
28-10-2010, 06:48
LOL. Despite the fact that I proved, mathematically, that they actually outperformed the hallowed halberds in many situations. :rolleyes:
Dude, you must have fallen on your head. :D

Yes, there are some situations where they are better, but they are few now that AHWs only help the front rank while halberds help all ranks fighting. Heck, the AHWs are only marginally better against T3 guys with 6+ saves, which is about as squishy as you get.

But, yeah, if you're fighting Wood Elf armies with nothing but archers, Empire armies with nothing but halberdiers and Vampire Counts armies with nothing but zombies, go right ahead and use additional hand weapons. :p

bluegdec1
28-10-2010, 07:01
LOL. Despite the fact that I proved, mathematically, that they actually outperformed the hallowed halberds in many situations. :rolleyes: But, we won't re-hash that thread, Avian. I don't have the time for it these days.

Halberds > AHW is nothing but "Warseer Wisdom".

In any case, arm them however you want. Warriors are monsters no matter what you do with them.

I would love to see that math. The only situation I see where double hand-weapons outperforms halberds is against opponents with Weapon Skill 3, 4, or 5 and Toughness 3, 4 or 5 (any combination) and no armor, or a 6+ armor save. Once you enter the realm of infantry with 5+ armor saves, halberds can expect to produce more casualties regardless of WS or T.

Wish I could attach the spreadsheet I've got that outlines that, but the math is there.

Hashulaman
28-10-2010, 08:00
I give Chosen shields to increase from shooting, in CC because of the buffs from EoTG+warshrines I see the lack of Parry and Shield not as bad as on Warriors, Ive thought of using GW but I think Halberds are enough. I keep the wasrhine close by as often as possible since I have ended up getitng a natural 4 or 5 on my rolls in EVERY game that I took the Wailing banner, I am not making this up.

antihelten
28-10-2010, 11:05
I would love to see that math. The only situation I see where double hand-weapons outperforms halberds is against opponents with Weapon Skill 3, 4, or 5 and Toughness 3, 4 or 5 (any combination) and no armor, or a 6+ armor save. Once you enter the realm of infantry with 5+ armor saves, halberds can expect to produce more casualties regardless of WS or T.

Wish I could attach the spreadsheet I've got that outlines that, but the math is there.

Actually the WS of the opponent is fairly irrelevant (it affects AHW and halberds equally, so the proportion of kills remains the same), and AHW never outperforms halberds against T 4 and 5 as long as you have 1 rank of supporting attacks.

And if the warriors have frenzy then AHW are only better against toughness 2.

But it's still a wonderful feeling to roll that many dice :D

Dreadgrass
29-10-2010, 01:10
yeah, I face a lot of T3 opponents (DoC, VC's, DElves, Skaven) so I thought of switching to AHW's, but unless the enemy is:

- T3 and,
- 6+ save or less and,
- you are not frenzied

there is no point, and even then, as soon as you hit the armies elite otions, you start to loose out. This isn't to say AHW's is a bad choice. Chaos warriors could run around with a limp salmon and still obliterate most opponents! AHW's look awesome, give you the feel of rolling mountains of dice, and taking the "weaker" option can lull your opponent into a false sense of security. Its just that, from a "most bang for your buck" perspective, halberds are the out-and-out best choice against probably 80% of opponents when it comes to kill factor. Around 15% of opponents would make GW's more viable, and the remaining 5% are as above, and the benefit of AHW's over halberds in that comparison is pretty much negilgible.

Now, I've seen mathammer floating around somewhere that compares AHW with AP banner VS Halberds with AP banner. I find this misleading as Halberds gain little from AP. A more fair comparison would be AHW with AP banner VS Halberds with Banner of Rage. This would allow each choice to make up for their weakness.

18x Chaos Warriors w/ AHW, command, AP banner
- 25 attacks
- Strength 4
- -2 armour (Strength 4 + AP)

18x Chaos Warriors w/ Halberds, command, Banner of Rage
- 25 attacks
- Strength 5
- -2 Armour (Strength 5)

Also consider that the 2nd setup is 10 points cheaper and Immune to psychology. (though with frenzies downfall, but a BSB negates that fairly well)

Hashulaman
29-10-2010, 08:09
Im honestly not that desperate for the -2 to armor, if I REALLY want it I will take the armor piercing banner, the rest of the time I will take frenzy banner on AHW warriors or mark of Khorne. 30 ws5 S4 attacks is nothing to scoff at, if you face alot of T4 armies with high armor saves then I could see your point. However the meta here does not follow that. I am fighting elves..........Puny T3 5+average save elves, also skaven, and non nurgle daemons. So almost my entire meta is T3 with little armor save or none and just a ward so high S is not as relevant. Id rather have a massive amount of good attacks then a smaller amount of great attacks. Situations like this whoever has the most attacks win as you can pass but so many saves.

I do take halberds though, on my chosen, so there is a situation where i take them. I will give you that.

Dreadgrass
29-10-2010, 10:51
Yeah, as I tried to explain above, against T3 5+ save halberds are better

Presuming Frenzy (from whatever source) with a unit 6 wide.

AHW: 30 attacks - hitting on 3's 20 hits - wounding on 3's 13.333 - 6+ save after -1 - 11.111 kills
- hitting on 4's 15 hits - wounding on 3's 10 - 6+ save after -1 - 8.333 kills

Halberds: 24 attacks - hitting on 3's 16 hits - wounding on 2's 13.333 kills (no save with -2)
- hitting on 4's 12 hits - wounding on 2's 10 kills (no save with -2)

So, in conditions pretty much optimal (only T3, minimal save) halberds still come out on top.

Again, if you like rolling a ton of dice, if you like your AHW models, if you don't want to convert the models, Use those AHW. My only point is, if your looking purely and simply at the comparitive benefits, halberds have it all over AHW, and anything that AHW's does better (Toughness 2 essentially as was mentioned above) its a matter of semantics, as they'll already wreck the unit in a big way.