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Tak
16-10-2010, 19:52
You know when a particular military unit fights against chaos, Iv,e heard that the Inquisition turn them all into servitor's (fine example of gratitude that).

What I want to know is where does the line lie in regards to who gets turned into servitors and who you say "just pretend that you didn't see anything interesting" to?

For instance, Logan Grimnar fought on Armageddon and saw hell itself realise on the planet but he got let off. Are there any examples of marines getting 'servitorized' because they have seen too much?

Lord Asgul
16-10-2010, 19:58
I've heard of men who failed to become marines get turned into chapter serfs or something like that...I think that was pre-heresy anyway.

Karl MkVI
16-10-2010, 20:15
I've heard of men who failed to become marines get turned into chapter serfs or something like that...I think that was pre-heresy anyway.

that doesn't really answer his question. at all... :confused:

the answer, unfortunately, is that the fluff is inconsistent. sometimes the official line seems to be: "if they see chaos, wipe their memories. or kill them.", and yet in other pieces of background this simply isn't the case. for example; you never see Gaunt's Ghosts getting lobotomized do you? ;)

i think, though, that more modern fluff has largely removed this 'lobotomizing' notion, because, at the end of the day, it makes little sense, when one considers how often the Imperium is forced to engage the forces of chaos.

Mr_Rose
16-10-2010, 20:23
You know when a particular military unit fights against chaos, Iv,e heard that the Inquisition turn them all into servitor's (fine example of gratitude that).

What I want to know is where does the line lie in regards to who gets turned into servitors and who you say "just pretend that you didn't see anything interesting" to?

For instance, Logan Grimnar fought on Armageddon and saw hell itself realise on the planet but he got let off. Are there any examples of marines getting 'servitorized' because they have seen too much?
Imperial Guard and civilians get sterilised and forced to work in labour camps re-building their shattered world so it will be nice and pristine when the new colonists get there.
Ranking munitorum officers and most space marines (anyone lofty enough to achieve the rank of Adept, basically) are mind-wiped.
Chapter masters, inquisitors and basically anyone with the balls to say no and make it stick can get away without even that.

No-one potentially corrupted by chaos gets servitor'd because absolutely the last thing you want is a possibly possessed servitor getting sent back into the workforce where it will look just like every other one until it sprouts tentacles and eats the governor.

Corvussanctus
17-10-2010, 08:56
Well, i think there is a good reason why gaunt's ghosts and other Regiments in the Sabbat World Crusade don't get lobotomized or killed...yet.
They are already tainted but still loyal, so they will be fed into the meatgrinder until they are all dead or go insane and have to be killed. Then you can send in the new cannon fodder. I think at the end of the crusade the rear regiments will move in an kill everybody who has been on the frontline, but until then you have no need to kill experienced figthers which have to be replaced by new troopers that will also get tainted.

Col. Tartleton
17-10-2010, 13:13
I'm sure the policy is "Nothing leaves the room." They at least swear them to secrecy if they're trustworthy. Erase their minds if they're not or turn them into furniture if its economically sound. You don't turn marines into servitors. You might have a librarian remove their memories though. For their own good. All it takes is one wolf in a flock of sheep. Even if those sheep happen to be bio-engineered mechanically enhanced killing machines. The wolf has that in his favor and the critical element of surprise. If a marine is tainted they kill him or purge him. But if he's just at a heightened risk its no big deal.

I like the old "Kill the civilians" policy. Its more fitting with the setting. If they aren't doing that I feel cheated.

Karl MkVI
17-10-2010, 14:12
I'm sure the policy is "Nothing leaves the room." They at least swear them to secrecy if they're trustworthy. Erase their minds if they're not or turn them into furniture if its economically sound. You don't turn marines into servitors. You might have a librarian remove their memories though. For their own good. All it takes is one wolf in a flock of sheep. Even if those sheep happen to be bio-engineered mechanically enhanced killing machines. The wolf has that in his favor and the critical element of surprise. If a marine is tainted they kill him or purge him. But if he's just at a heightened risk its no big deal.

this does fit with the setting, but it also makes little sense. how do the White Scars have an old enemy in Voldorus? because they know about him. Marines especially would have to be trained and knowledgable with regards to chaos in order to best combat it. how could so many billions of troops be depoyed against the 13th Black Crusade if none of them were supposed to have any idea what they are fighting? i mean, what do you tell all the guys who spend their entire lives guarding the Cadian Gate??

"Yeah, the Eye of Terror is dangerous."
"why?"
"because, well... there's bad stuff in there."
"ok. what kind of stuff? should we train against it?"
"nah. if we tell you about it, we'll have to murder you. so just sit tight and wait to be slaughtered by chaos, 'cause there's no chance we're gonna tell you anything about it."
"wait... chaos?"
"oh, darn. John, you got a pistol on you?"

Lupe
17-10-2010, 14:14
For instance, Logan Grimnar fought on Armageddon and saw hell itself realise on the planet but he got let off. Are there any examples of marines getting 'servitorized' because they have seen too much?

You really don't want to lobotomize the only guys who can stand up to a Chaos Marine or Daemon raid... You really, really, don't...

On the note of getting 'servitorized', however, there's an example in Rynn's World where a promising scout gets this treatment for disobeying orders, after that leads to losing almost the entire force.

Col. Tartleton
17-10-2010, 14:17
But that's 40k gold right there. That's the point. The Guard don't know where they're going or what they're up against. Its top secret need to know stuff and they don't need to know. They'll get told to practice shooting and bayonet fighting drills and have extra church services. They don't know why though. And told to shoot on sight anyone acting suspicious who may be a "traitor" once they're on the ground. So they assume they're going to put down rebels if they can even draw that conclusion. It wouldn't be totally untrue. There are rebels. They just happen to have inter-dimensional demonic allies.

Mr_Rose
17-10-2010, 14:39
You really don't want to lobotomize the only guys who can stand up to a Chaos Marine or Daemon raid... You really, really, don't...

On the note of getting 'servitorized', however, there's an example in Rynn's World where a promising scout gets this treatment for disobeying orders, after that leads to losing almost the entire force.
Yeah, but he was just an idiot, not potentially corrupted by exposure to the warp. And as a bloody good shot he'd still be useful as a weapon-servitor once he had his discipline problem surgically removed...
Pity that never got around to happening.

Shamana
17-10-2010, 15:02
Didn't the Space Wolves codex say that also happens to Bloodclaws that manage to screw up in a way that injures/kills others, especially veteran marines? It doesn't seem to be a unique case.

Still, I'd say with full-trained SMs it might be quite rare. I suppose if the Chaplain decided that the Marine has gone too far, it might happen.

Retribution
17-10-2010, 16:36
I always thought it was interesting how the Inquisition deported and repopulated the entire planet of Armageddon while doing nothing to the Mordians, Tallarns, or Cadians

FabricatorGeneralMike
17-10-2010, 17:02
I always thought it was interesting how the Inquisition deported and repopulated the entire planet of Armageddon while doing nothing to the Mordians, Tallarns, or Cadians

BEHOLD the power of the RETCON!! Cower in fear mortals of its power!


Blah, I liked the old fluff where chaos was a closely guarded secret. The reasion they did the lobotomizations was so that you could be 'spared' the full horror of fighting againsted the dark gods. Now it seems more random, which I thinks rather blows chunks hard. Altho YMMV.

DarthMcBob
17-10-2010, 18:17
But that's 40k gold right there. That's the point. The Guard don't know where they're going or what they're up against. Its top secret need to know stuff and they don't need to know. They'll get told to practice shooting and bayonet fighting drills and have extra church services. They don't know why though. And told to shoot on sight anyone acting suspicious who may be a "traitor" once they're on the ground. So they assume they're going to put down rebels if they can even draw that conclusion. It wouldn't be totally untrue. There are rebels. They just happen to have inter-dimensional demonic allies.

No, that's just really, really stupid. The Guard usually know who and what it is they're fighting. For example, in the Ciaphus Cain series, Guardsmen make reference to Horus and the Heresey. I think that the Inquisition eventually realized that it is tremendously impractical to annihilate your entire army every time they face a certain enemy. Although this probably varies between individual Inquisitors and their conclaves.

tezdal
17-10-2010, 18:23
Back in the old fluff they wiped out guard and memory wiped Marines didn't they? Back when the Ordo Malleus was super "seekrit" hooded jedi looking types?

t-tauri
17-10-2010, 18:26
Early background would have anything Imperial exposed to chaos lobotomised/mindwiped/exterminated as was deemed appropriate. Chaos was kept secret in early background. See the final Betrayal section of the First Armageddon pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis%28Armageddon%29.pdf).

GW realised that they couldn't have marines being continually mindwiped and that seems to expand to useful IG formations. It would appear now that ony the heaviest exposure to the warp would lead to extreme measures. Your likelihood of servitor conversion would seem to be inversely proportional to your importance.

spetswalshe
17-10-2010, 18:29
I think that the old 'mindwipe everyone! EVERYONE!' background was taking it too far. It left you with absolutely no ability to create a meaningful story whatsoever, unless all you care about is Inquisitors and Space Marines. I'm glad GW basically ignore that whole thing. It's simply unworkable anyway - Cadians live their whole lives fighting Chaos, as do thousands of other worlds; everyone in the Imperium as it is written these days has some vague awareness that Mutation Is Evil, Worshipping Anyone Except The Emperor Is Evil (Space Marines get to ignore this one), and Traitors Get Shot Up.

Certainly a particularly harsh campaign might require 'retiring' the disposable chumps, or mind-wiping if you've got the resources - for example, the survivors of an invasion into the Eye or a Daemon World - but keeping Chaos a secret from everyone would remove the need to have an Imperial Preacher thumping his Emperobible and riling up the futurepeasants to burn down the Underhive. You cut a lot of great stories out just to fit in one unnecessary chunk of grimdark.

Askil the Undecided
18-10-2010, 00:54
Reading all these "knowing about chaos is good, the older grimmer subtlety of the under wraps thing was dumb" posts I can't help but think people have massively missed the point. That being that the Imperium is an sprawing, ineffcient, oppressive theocracy: a system that thrives on it's own non-uniform dogmatic stupidity and overzealous protection of people from the truths that it deems to dangerous to know.

That being the case, remember that knowledge is the enemy of faith.

The average proles get "santitized" fairytale versions of the truth, filtered by ficticous bilge. These stories make the world just scary enough to make people do as they are told and just safe enough that if they all "do their part" they'll just about get through the day without dying of terror. Rather like the Daily Mail. For examples of this propoganda check the Imperial Infantrymans Uplifting Primer.

The people at the buisiness end of things however get screwed by the reality of things constantly. Until eventually their sanitized little minds fizzle and collapse and when they stop believing their uncaring god on a golden seat is looking after them they become a threat to the society of naive and idiotic sheep they fight and die to protect.

That being said it simply doesn't matter that Cadians fight Chaos all the time because they live on a largely locked-down fortess in an area that is host to the biggest Inquisition fortess in existance, who are hell they going to tell that doesn't know Chaos is horrendously dangerous and scary?

However, when the "Fighting" 23rd from argiworld Pissant Podunk IV sees goddamn deamons raping physics and bursting into realspace the regiment gets quietly taken to one side after their useful life in the campaign is over and killed off, lobotomised or mindraped in some other way. largely because the fragile conditioned "faithful" minds of the troopers are utterly compromised by knowledge of the reality (or unreality if you like) of Chaos, dangerous forbidden knowledge they could spread like a cancer among anyone they might talk to for the rest of their lives.

So the Imperium takes the spetznaz line of "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out." Messy but effective, for dead men tell no dangerous truths to the naive peasants back home.

Col. Tartleton
18-10-2010, 02:04
No, that's just really, really stupid. The Guard usually know who and what it is they're fighting. For example, in the Ciaphus Cain series, Guardsmen make reference to Horus and the Heresy. I think that the Inquisition eventually realized that it is tremendously impractical to annihilate your entire army every time they face a certain enemy. Although this probably varies between individual Inquisitors and their conclaves.

Yes, we also know about Satan and the War in Heaven he caused. We also know he was soundly trounced. When Guardsman Joe hear's the name "Horus" he conjures up images of a red eyed serpent being choked by a radiant golden armored statuesque figure with a raging beard. Not unlike Zeus and Typhon.

You've never seen a demon though have you? That's what they don't want you to know about. Remember the exorcist? Okay, now imagine 10,000 of those running around, that's why you shoot your own troops. Heck that's just one regiment. Imagine a real war against chaos. You'd be risking any number of a million plus soldiers going FUBAR. If you don't shoot them all and recolonize you end up needing a second and larger army to kill your first rebel army.

Instead you just plan for two waves: The Attack Force and the "Reserve"...

DarthMcBob
18-10-2010, 02:11
Yes, we also know about Satan and the War in Heaven he caused. We also know he was soundly trounced. When Guardsman Joe hear's the name "Horus" he conjures up images of a red eyed serpent being choked by a radiant golden armored statuesque figure with a raging beard. Not unlike Zeus and Typhon.

You've never seen a demon though have you? That's what they don't want you to know about.

In one novel, Ciaphus and his regiment, along with several others, fight both Slaaneshi and Khornate Chaos cultists (some of whom are lead by World Eater Chaos Space Marines) and don't get killed. Cain and several others personally witness the summoning of, fight against, and kill a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh. An Inquisitor was directly informed of this. None of them were killed or lobotomized. Cain survives to die naturally at over a century old.

Col. Tartleton
18-10-2010, 02:21
They're also supposed to be humorous and more light hearted then most of the 40k material. Ciaphas Cain is hardly representative of the entire universe.

DarthMcBob
18-10-2010, 02:25
They're also supposed to be humorous and more light hearted then most of the 40k material. Ciaphas Cain is hardly representative of the entire universe.

True. But it shows that just seeing a Chaos Space Marine or daemon isn't always a one-way ticket to death/lobotimization for any non-Space Marines.

Clockwork-Knight
18-10-2010, 02:28
Ciaphas Cain is "THE HERO OF THE IMPERIUM".

Also, he's a commisar, and they are 'theoretically' trained to be hardcore and incredibly pious so that they could serve in an inquisitorial retinue together with assassins and grey knights.

Askil the Undecided
18-10-2010, 02:39
Also did the Cain books specifically say that at the end of their campaign they weren't quietly murdered and refounded to protect the status quo?

DarthMcBob
18-10-2010, 03:40
Also did the Cain books specifically say that at the end of their campaign they weren't quietly murdered and refounded to protect the status quo?

No. But many named characters that appear in the book come back again. For example; the Lord General (forget his name), Sulla (who went on to become a Lord General herself), and Margot. Sulla and Margot are just a bog-standard sergeant and trooper, respectively. margot was part of the party that saw the daemon princess face-to-face, in the end.

Askil the Undecided
18-10-2010, 04:43
No. But many named characters that appear in the book come back again. For example; the Lord General (forget his name), Sulla (who went on to become a Lord General herself), and Margot. Sulla and Margot are just a bog-standard sergeant and trooper, respectively. margot was part of the party that saw the daemon princess face-to-face, in the end.

And of course one series of comedic novels that borrows heavily from flashman and blackadder outweighs all the Codex and novel fluff to the contrary?

Also did the novels ever reveal the totality of what happened at the end of the 597th's campaign?

Polaria
18-10-2010, 05:25
the answer, unfortunately, is that the fluff is inconsistent. sometimes the official line seems to be: "if they see chaos, wipe their memories. or kill them.", and yet in other pieces of background this simply isn't the case. for example; you never see Gaunt's Ghosts getting lobotomized do you? ;)


This is one of those cases where the 'inconsistency' of the fluff is part of the fluff. Inquisition is extremely fragmented organization in both philosophy, creed and methods. And since the Rosette is "Emperors Permission For Everything" people are highly unlikely to even point out thta one Inquisitor is doing completely different things for completely different reasons than another one. Inquisitors have, by definition, the right to do as they please.

So yes, there are probably Inquisitors who think that people seeing Chaos should be lobotomized AND make that happen. There are also Inquisitors who purposefully summon daemons, bind them to people and use the mutated daemonhosts to fight xenos/daemons/heretics/whatever.

DarthMcBob
18-10-2010, 05:30
And of course one series of comedic novels that borrows heavily from flashman and blackadder outweighs all the Codex and novel fluff to the contrary?

Also did the novels ever reveal the totality of what happened at the end of the 597th's campaign?

Outweighs it? No. I am merely claiming that lobotimization/death are not guaranteed upon seeing a Chaos daemon, and providing evidence for it. I'm sure that there are some Inquisitors who would do it, and some who would not. They're quite a widely varied bunch, and the galaxy is a big place.

No. Merely that Sulla went on to become a Lord General, and that Cain was allowed to retire and teach at a schola. He died of natural causes at over 100 years old and was buried with full military honors.

Askil the Undecided
18-10-2010, 05:51
Commissars are trained to resist taint, mainly as they are also trained to be the first line of defence against it.

Okay, Lord generals are not subject to Inquisitorial "mustering out" as they don't tend to walk into "morally perilous" situations. Sulla may have risen so high due to her complete lack of curiousity and imagination or "mental fortitude" as moralistic types tend to think of it making her not only an insufferanble idiot but also a highly resilient individual.

Iuris
18-10-2010, 08:02
First, I don't think I've ever noted lobotomization/servitor transformation as a way of dealing with exposure to chaos. I remember them used as punishment for crimes against the AdMech and for failing some Space marine initiation rites, but not as an after action measure.

Second, I'd say it would depend on the individual case and the amount of exposure and traumatization.

If a guard unit is called to fight against a chaos cult, they'd mostly fignt human cultists. That would be humans and mutants with regular arms, and seeing a few bad banners and similar. While they'd get yelled a lot at by confessors, as prevention, that'd hardly warrant wipes.

However, things would change with more exposure. A regular unit that faces a fully fledged sorceror blasting around with waves of mutating energies will likely end the combat with several members mutated, a few catatonic, or worse, screaming and clawing their eyes out - and emperor's absolution may well follow.

In normal wars, I'd expect this to be decided on a guardsman per guardsman, or squad to squad, basis.

Armageddon war, however, was waged on a planet so warp saturated that it could support one of the mightiest demon princes and his bodyguard... I don't think that was a case of a normal battlefield. I think those guardsmen walked on living flesh, had seen sandbags weep and scream with agony, and were almost certain to get a mutation apiece.

Of course, another, equally valid explanation would be that it would greatly depend on the personality of the one in charge. Get an ultra zealous hardcore nutcase, and noone gets out alive, nor anyone that has ever spoken with him. Get a more sane soul... and you have a chance.

Dark heresy also describes some interesting possiblities: a corrupted man can, through extensive and expensive rituals be purged of taint (well, up to a point). However, this is so rare, expensive etc. that it would be rare for even the closest companions of an Inquisitor to be able to get this sort of treatment.

Lastly, on the subject of how hidden chaos is supposed to be in 40K: while it will, as ever, vary, I believe that it's actually a matter of detail. I expect every citizen of 40k will know, by heart, probably, that there are ruinous powers about, that they cause mutation, that psykers are wont to fall to them, that a long time ago they corrupted Horus and that the Emperor "ascended" after defeating Horus.

But while they'd know that there are ruinous powers, the wouldn't likely know the names of the big four. While they'd know there are demons, they wouldn't know a demonette from a mutated female cultist. Actually, they wouldn't knwo a bloodletter from a plaguebearer - they'd both be demons.

The core concept of the great four being sentient warp storms feeding on emotion... would be a theory only the most deeply initiated servants of the inquisition would have access to.

So, yeah, I'd expect that a typical 40K player randomly appearing in the 40th millenium would already have to keep his mouth quite shut, unless in service of the inquisition (on chaos), rogue traders (on xenos) etc. Oh, and it's always understood that these people don't go around disturbing the public order by publicly announcing what they know, especially not with a tankard of ale in their hand :)

Utred
19-10-2010, 01:47
Have to agree with Iuris - being made into a servitor is a punishment; except for Marine servitors and servants that are Marines that failed the gene-seed implants or tests.

Page 247 Slaves To Darkness - Ordo Malleus section:


Only the Grey Knights survive in service of the Ordo. All other troops die when given over to them. The reason for non-survival amoung military units attached to the ordo is simple. Any troops that an Inquisitor Ordinary has commanded have been exposed to daemons. They are privy to one of the most closely guarded Imperial secrets; that Daemons exist and Chaos is a terrible threat. Those that survive a battle or campaign are executed, with full honours shortly afterwards. They are expendible and entire Imperial regiments and corps have been dispatched by the Ordo Malleus.

The most notible occasion was at the end of the Nexxas Exculpation (M40.561). An incursion by the traitor marines of the Emperor's children was opposed by a complete Imperial Army corps. Once the invasion was beaten off the corps was destroyed by orbital bombardment from an Ordo warship. The Imperial records were altered to show that a renegade force of Eldar was responsible for the destruction of the unit.

The only general exception to this policy of secrecy-by-extermination are Adeptus Astartes units. Execution of a Marine is seen as wasteful. Marine Units are mind scrubbed rather than killed - their memories destroyed rather than their bodies. Mindscrubbing removes any and all memories of the Ordo's true purpose, but requires its victims to be completely re-trained. Mindscrubbed marines cannot even fed themselves let alone fight for the Imperium.

You could therefore argue that if the Ordo Malleus aren't aware of what has happened this wouldn't be applied. Also as has already been mentioned if a Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitor was involved (especially a member of the Isstvanian faction), they would actively relish this information getting out; as such I can't see them applying this if they could get away with it.

Finally as Iuris says; would a Daemon always be recognised for what it was? Those 100 Guardmen in an Infantry Company that were slaughtered by Daemons, the heroic few survivors, would they truely know what they faught? Would their gibbering stories be just seen as shell shocked troops? Would they end their days as nightmare tormented war veterans living on the streets trying to forget their memories in a bottle, or would a commissioner just execute them for cowardice?