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View Full Version : What Makes Ogres Fun and tactically variable in 8th?



Desalbert
20-10-2010, 00:51
A discussion was starting towards this effect on another thread of mine, and since I don't mean to practice thread-o-mancy, I'm wondering what it is that makes Ogres 'more fun' in this edition of warhammer. I played a 1000 pt battle with them at the death of 7th, and they didn't seem all that interesting (either at ranged combat, magic, or combat) in a tactical sense.

But I think I'm missing something... and I also haven't thrown down with them in 8th

So can you spell out some of the changes for me, or some of the ways in which Ogres can be seen as a tactically variable force that's suited to someone who enjoys fielding different units in different games, in interesting ways?

That is, I don't enjoy the concept of a static list, and am worried that Ogre tactics are kind of one-dimensional, and that their list is also rather lacking in its number of unit options to choose from.

Am I wrong? If I am, convince me to build upon the Ogre battalion + Butcher + Tyrant that I currently own

DeeKay
20-10-2010, 01:14
ATM, it seems that Ogres are meant to rely on overwhelming force to defeat their enemies. With their retention of the Bull Charge from their 6th Ed book, and the addition of the Stomp attack, Ogres can kick out between 4-6 attacks every turn. Coupled with the fact that Ogres are Monstrous Imfantry, and as a result can use their A stat rather than just 1 attack each, Units with at least 1 rank are almost a must. Gone are the days of MSU, now you must consolidate your units and crush the enemy before you.

Ogres still rely on their augmentation spells, such as Trollguts and Toothcracker (I think that's the name, I don't have the book to hand) so at least 1 Butcher is a must. 2 might be overkill, and may limit your ability to take a BSB (very important nowadays) but they can augment a larger part of your army.

Just because Ogres rely on their pure killing ability, don't expect to throw them at the largest unit in front of you and come out on top. The rather radical changes to unit strength and attacking in I order means that Ogres will usually strike last, so be smart when declaring charges and only charge a unit head on when there is no other alternative. Thee is something deeply unsettling, especially to newer players, when they are outsmarted by big, smelly, fat guys and their Ogres.

And if all else fails, blame your lack of success on your inclusion (or lack) of Gnoblars, one of the cheapest core units available to anyone. A big unit of the little blighters backed up by a General and a BSB will almost never break under normal circumstances so don't be afraid to use them as such.

There's my thoughts, let's see if anyone else can add to them.

With regards,
Dan.

Dourine
20-10-2010, 01:26
I've been playing ogres a bit recently.

Obviously they have some really cool character models, so there's a plus.
As far as just the hobby side, they're all really good looking models that are very fun to paint.

Game-wise, they're OGRES! Big, mean, hungry, what's not to like? But seriously, even the base (ogre) units are a very scary concept. All the (ogre) units are scary. Even our casters can be really good in combat. At 260 points a slaughtermaster with mawseeker, cookbook and cleaver is not only a good caster, complementing your army very well, but he's incredibly resiliant and nearly impossible to kill once you get him into combat.

I don't play with any gnoblars (if you're playing ogre kingdoms army, you're not playing to so you can field a bunch of weedy gnoblars!!! lol), so my model count for 2000pts is about 30. So it's very fun seeing your army and your opponents 80-100 empire models and thinking "this small amount of guys is comparable to that large amount of guys". It's almost the space marine mentality, where you have very strong, very resiliant, tough guys, even as a basic troop.

Now, on the flipside, they are pretty limited. Especially when you want to play an 'ogre-only' force. You're limited to bulls, ironguts, leadbelchers, maneaters, and gorgers. And personally, i don't really like playing leadbelchers or maneaters competetively.

If you like to include the gnoblars, giants, yhetees, and whatnots, then yeah, they're not so limited, you have about as many choices available to you as several other army books. I think a couple more hero choices and a couple more special characters might juice the book up a bit though.

eyescrossed
20-10-2010, 02:00
At 260 points a slaughtermaster with mawseeker, cookbook and cleaver is not only a good caster, complementing your army very well, but he's incredibly resiliant and nearly impossible to kill once you get him into combat.
That'd work. If Slaughtermasters could take Big Names.

Lazarian
20-10-2010, 04:58
There are several reasons they rock now in 8th, not broken, but fun.

-No partials make scraplaunchers a delight to throw at someone. Its now downright horrifying to see it placed, every time I drop the two in my arsenal my opponent gets a little uncomfortable.

-Monstrous infantry make basic Ogre Bulls very viable against most armies. Its exciting every time a block hits someone because you know a ton of attacks are going their way.

-Both gnoblar units secretly might be our best units... Trappers have scout/ skirmish and throw out tons of shots, not very effective, but after you tell someone 60 points of trappers are going to blurt out 20 shots they perk up and get interested in these little redirectors/harnesser. Standard gnoblars are how you bust steadfast, and if you reform you can get an insane amount of shots, then another bucket from stand and shoots. Again they dont hit much but you gleefully yell '40 shots!' from a possible stand and shoot and they pause... often.

-Gut Magic Rocks!!!!!! Well its not as powerful, its just... cool. You get more casts, more options and its all buffage. If any of it gets off your hand to hand phases are force multiplied greatly.

-The play style in 7th was very challenging, so those of us who had to move from 6th through 8th we have been able to 'loosen' up and actually field Warhammer armies like everyone else.

The army looks and feels different than anyone else, I love em.

As pretty as a Gnoblar
20-10-2010, 05:15
That'd work. If Slaughtermasters could take Big Names.


Sorry but i must ahve missed that.Where does it say that? I thought all characthers are allowed big names.

Anyway Ogres are much better in 8th simply because they couldent get any worse.Use large blocks of bulls,semi large units of ironguts loaded with charatchers,throw in a couple of scraplaunchers and trappers and you are good to go.

Yamabushi
20-10-2010, 06:19
Pg 58, Ogre Army Book. All characters can choose a single big name, except that Tyrants can have better options.

Back OT, Ogres are fun to play against and with. A lot of attacks, awesome Gut Magic, and one of the best generic Lord class fighter in the game. I've had 50 Empire Halberdiers reduced to almost 0 in a single combat round, it was a funny thing to watch, even though those Halberdiers are mine :(

Crimifa
20-10-2010, 06:37
but they are relatively static in their list building

you have a couple of options
like
gnoblars or no gnoblars
yhetis or no yhetis
giants or no gaints

see while this logic applies to ALL armies lol

ogres have the smallest scope of varience

playing them is like playing necrons in 40k, you may have choices, but not much and usually not more than "to field or not to field"

HOWEVER ogres rock because unlike other armies with their wide varity and interesting combos
ALL ogre stuff works and works good
maneaters and yhetis have about the least amount of use... and even then, they can be god-like in certain situations (lots of impassable terrain or that game where you can't come in off the sides? no problem)

they are a very good example of an army, strong enough, not broken, interesting, but with room to grow.


i personally love all things monsterous, so they win as an army for my heart because they are ALL monsterous!!! except gnoblars, but gnoblars fulfil my other great dream in warhammer a solid block of 100!!! all for only 200 points lol (less than 6 bulls hahahahaha)

OH OH OH, could have 300 gnoblars in one of thos tiny 750 point games... hahahah THIS! IS! GNOBLAR!!!

i also like some uniqueness though, so i am currently in the process of converting my troll king throgg army to be able to straddle the middle ground between OK and WoC books... that way if someone wants to be a whiny bugger about "no using special characters" FINE, this is my count as ogre kingdoms army from the far northern ice wastes, troll country lead by one super nasty vomity tyrant

having small problems with a wintery cross reference between a scrap launcher and a hellcannon lol

Seville
20-10-2010, 06:41
Good topic. I've had my eye on Ogres for a looong time, and now with 8th, they seem like a much more viable choice. I really like how the army looks from a purely aesthetic standpoint.

But, I, too worry about how they play. They seem quite limited. 2 units of 9 Bulls, and a unit of 6 Ironguts, and BAM you are already at nearly 1200 points. So for even a rather large game of 2500 points you're looking at maybe 5 or 6 units on the field and some characters. It just doesn't seem like much.

But it would be easy as pie to paint.

Any examples of a fun Ogre list?

Crimifa
20-10-2010, 06:49
literally... any ogre list

you can field any of their units and have fun...

thats what is soo good about them and their limited choices

Seville
20-10-2010, 06:53
literally... any ogre list

you can field any of their units and have fun...

thats what is soo good about them and their limited choices

Ok, cool. I believe you, but could you explain a bit more? Like, let's say I took a list like:

Tyrant
Slaughtermaster
9 Bulls, Full Command, Iron Fists
9 Bulls, Full Command, Iron Fists
9 Bulls, Full Command, Iron Fists
6 Iron Guts
6 Iron Guts
2 Leadbelchers
2 Leadbelchers

How would you play this list? It seems like you would just kinda move forward and smash it into your enemy, head-on. Seems tactically limited.

I mean, sure, this could be fun the first few times... but seems like it might get old.

What do you think?

Crimifa
20-10-2010, 07:40
ok ok

take your units of ogres in 6, 3x2, full command. take about 2-3 of them, this allows some variety as with 3, you could if you feel inclined, merge them all into a single horde so then if anyone says "my horde is so hardcore" you can turn around and go... "my 54 S4 -2 armour save + 6 stomps has something to say about that..." things will dissappear if you field it like that every now and then, but usually nice little 6 man units will get you by

arm them however you see fit, ironfists are pretty versitile, but ogre clubs are cool too and cheaper, letting you spend points elsewhere

a unit of gnoblars will provide you with the joy of a unit that dies in droves, i don't care what some people say, removing models CAN be fun... especially when said removing of models actually frustrates your opponent because it didn't do anything (enter the block of 100 dream... lol)

gnoblars let you mix it up by providing, oddly enough, a solid anvil to tarpit stuff while the ogres get stuck into the sides

leadblechers will always provide you with entertainment... a unit that could either kill itself or annhilate a unit of knights in a single round of fire will always bring a smile to your face

yhetis are a "if you like em" unit, they have their use...

scrap launchers provide you with the joy of dropping pie plates on things like goblins and watching them die... not to mention nasty charging goodness

gaints add a nice centre piece and with their random special attacks always make their combats an interesting affair

butchers provide magic and magic is always fun

so with that..
tyrant
butcher
BSB bruiser
6 Bulls, Full Command
6 Bulls, Full Command
6 Bulls, Dull command
40 gnoblars
4 Iron Guts, magic standard
4 Leadbelchers
scrap launcher
giant
gorger

this is a pretty solid rouhgly 2000 or so... haven't got my book on me.. list *edit* ok... its closer to 2500... sorry, probally have to drop the iron guts and scrimp a bit on kit... hmm, drop a unit of bulls (NOO MY HORDE!!!) and the iron guts back to 4 (no magic banner either... also doesn't need a standard or champion... madness you say? realistically, none of the ogres NEED champions, they are quite cool for picking up bonus VPs when you squash goblin heros though. standards are only for combat res and break point... stupid break point... auto breaking my troll army) and don't spend full 100 on tyrant... there you go roughly 2000 lol
and it contains elements that will play in every phase and also are a little random in a good way (with some room for varying, like forming the gnoblars 8 ranks deep or ogres in a horde)

so even though it will "get old" if this list gets old... then really, your problem is not with ogres... its with the whole game getting old... as this list plays every part of the game and can even sometimes mix it up... but really... there are only so many things you can do (this list certainly does more than some of the super comp lists... i can assure you)

eyescrossed
20-10-2010, 09:04
Sorry but i must ahve missed that.Where does it say that? I thought all characthers are allowed big names.
On page 58... "Tyrants may purchase a single Big Name of any points value. Other characters allowed to purchase a big name may purchase one up to the value of 25 points."

Now check the Tyrant entry. Now check the Slaughtermaster entry. They're not allowed to take Big Names.

Yamabushi
20-10-2010, 10:20
Thanks Eyecrossed! I stand corrected as well! :)

eyescrossed
20-10-2010, 10:57
No problem ;) it took me ages to notice that little bit, anyway.

Lazarian
20-10-2010, 17:57
At first blush yes the ogres run right at them, however as a holdover from 7th several MSU concepts still hold over in 8th. If your going no gnoblar you can diffuse your line and essentially treat every unit in your army as a redirector to get the biggest opposing hammer out of position. Your still going to have to take some shooting so that has bearing as well. Every melee heavy army has similar tactics that all start from "push everything forward". Ogres are in the same boat so to say as Warriors, Beastmen and Daemons. What sets them appart for me is the fluff, models and playstyle. A Tyrant is a bad man and I love him dearly so part of it is me.

Ive had to put up with this army being subpar for some time, so like me most of the older Ogre players probably have an even stronger connection than other people might. Ogres have never been considered top tier, were not now, but I certainly can more easily bring the pain.

As far as respective lists, you need blocks of gnoblars, 8th edition goes far more smoothly if you have something to 'staple' threats into place with steadfast or you can knock out steadfast on tricky charges via combo charge. Gnoblars also give you extra setups for the cheap, very important now.

Lazarian
20-10-2010, 18:01
Also one thing I forgot. In the new rules Ironguts are very subpar. I havent taken them in close to two months and my armies feel even better than they do, I have very much not looked back.

As of now the army has non hunter characters, bulls, gnoblars, trappers, scrappies maybe gorgers/giants and rhinox as their units. The rest of the book has been beaten down by 8th edition conversion to a point you probably wanna just use the better units.

decker_cky
20-10-2010, 20:12
Ironguts are solid as character bunkers since they can take the rune maw. With the make way rules, the ironguts are protected (champ and 2 chars in the front rank), and attack from the second rank with strength. Greatskull can protect a unit of bulls, but the rune maw is BSB or ironguts, and would be a waste of the BSB.