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macbeth
20-10-2010, 08:18
I've never tried my VC under the 8th edition rules, and I'm toying with the idea of using a 80 zombie horde. It's quite cheap (around 320 points, for 80 minis), but as I am a specialist of ideas "which sound good at first but which in fact suck," I'd like to have other people's oppinion. Do you think, in a 3000 point game, that a unit of 80 zombies would be useful?

Sectux
20-10-2010, 10:57
You have to make sure you back them up. A vamp with helm of command, corpse cart and whatever else to buff them, then you have a threatening unit. Otherwise they can just be ignored by the enemy, and the huge unit size makes them unwealdy. Great psyc unit though. People don't know how to deal with so many!

Korraz
20-10-2010, 11:34
What would 80 zombies do? Aside from tarpitting, at which 40 or less zombies are as good at?

bluemage
20-10-2010, 13:37
Zombies aren't very good. Some people like the fluff so that's why they run them I guess. If you buff them they might do something, but we're not talking 320 points at this point. Taking a vampire with helm of command and a lore of buff spells is more like 500+ points that will eat up your power dice every round. No matter how much you polish a ****, its still a ****.

Tae
20-10-2010, 15:09
A **** which is doing to get destroyed by every single 'big' spell in the game. Now granted a lot of people wont be throwing those at such a crap unit, but I for one would as it gets rid of a very annoying speed-hump.

macbeth
20-10-2010, 16:10
Ok, so 80 is too many. So what would be the biggest, useful size? 40? 60? Or maybe two big 40 zombie units to act as a kind of "shield" for my units.

I would see this kind of unit only as a way to block an ennemy unit for a long time. It's true that zombies really suck, but if I did it with ghouls or skelettons, the unit would cost twice as much, so...

grumbaki
20-10-2010, 16:16
Go with the two units of 40. 1) same price 2) can be two places at once 3) less unwieldy 4) less likely to be hit by big spells, and even if they are a single spell won't decimate them.

However...big units of zombies do look cool.

Malorian
20-10-2010, 16:19
I would actually keep them as one block.

If two blocks were tied into one combat they would just crumble faster, and together it is harder to get any VPs from them.

Having this big unit on one flank will allow you to crush the other.

If you need zombies anywhere else then just raise them.

LAV-Kitsune-
20-10-2010, 17:33
As a Nurgle player I would say "Keep them as a nice and big unit of 80 for my plaguewind" with a big grin. Succesfully cast plaguewind would sweep 53 zombies out of that and give me nice bunch of 17 nurgling bases. Big weakling hordes are just perfect breeding ground for my lovely pet nurglings~ *mwhah mhwah mwhaarh*

TheShadowCow
25-10-2010, 19:41
80 Zombies are T2 fodder.

80 Zombies supported by the Helm of Command (WS6 is good, WS7 is better if you can run the Lord) are a little harder to hit and so survive a little longer.

80 Zombies, supported by the Helm of Command and a buff/debuff spell (Enfeebling Foe, Withering Hex, Wyssans Wildform, Curse of Anrahir, Pha's Protection, Speed of Light or Soulblight) are shockingly effective, depending on which buff/debuff spell you manage to get off on them or the opponent.

Keeping a Corpse Cart nearby is a good idea for ASF (and if you went with the Lore of Shadow, putting Mindrazor on a Corpse Cart is disgusting), as is paying the very reasonable cost of a Musician and Standard bearer for your Zombie Horde.

As malorian quite rightly points out, this unit is large enough and weird enough to defend one end of your battleline, and all for a very reasonable cost. Remember, even though they require a fair amount of support to really be anything other than a couple of turns of tarpit, that support isn't being purchased for the Zombies alone and can be re-applied anywhere you wish (thanks to good spell ranges, putting the Helm of Command on a Vampire with a Hellsteed etc).

bluemage
25-10-2010, 20:05
@theshadowcow or you could guard your flank with 40 ghouls instead. They'll do better both with and without the support of other things in your army.

Zombies aren't worth the points they cost and by attempting to buff them into something decent you'll be hurting yourself in other areas. The whole helm of command and buff spells are a red herring. Anything should be able to fight if it has ws 7 rerolls to hit and s10. And by the way I believe mindrazor works on your unmodified leadership, which for zombies is 2. Not 10.

Enigmatik1
25-10-2010, 20:36
@theshadowcow or you could guard your flank with 40 ghouls instead. They'll do better both with and without the support of other things in your army.

Zombies aren't worth the points they cost and by attempting to buff them into something decent you'll be hurting yourself in other areas. The whole helm of command and buff spells are a red herring. Anything should be able to find if it has ws 7 rerolls to hit and s10. And by the way I believe mindrazor works on your unmodified leadership, which for zombies is 2. Not 10.

I think the FAQ clarified that you can use your General's LD if in range for Mindrazor.

As a random aside, I think you're pretty much right. However, there is something hilarious about the notion of WS7, S10, ASF zombies. Sure it's an inane amount of resources and totally not worth the points involved but Undead generals should already be used to that, right? ;)

Leth Von Lucifuge
27-10-2010, 15:04
Why not just use another unit for support? That's kind of the point of having a tar pit in a VC army, it replaces the fast cav feigned flight tactics. I've used ghouls and zombies to take down plenty of flankers, stegadons, whitelion chariots, iron breakers... nothing too good, but that's what grave guard are for.
At 2500 i use a unit of 27 and raise new models before reaching combat. I only own 30 or so so i stop there but i think you can go up to 40 without getting too pointless. The idea is you don't need to start with more than 25 or 30, that way they are cheap, cant give up too many vps and you can always make more. I also give them a standard and it hasn't been captured yet.

H33D
27-10-2010, 19:55
Why dont you bring many more since they are cheap if you are using them as a bunker for your characters?

Malorian
27-10-2010, 20:08
Why dont you bring many more since they are cheap if you are using them as a bunker for your characters?

Characters can't go in zombie units.

Ramius4
27-10-2010, 20:14
Why dont you bring many more since they are cheap if you are using them as a bunker for your characters?

For starters, characters can't join units of Zombies.

80 Zombies is 360 points... 360 will get me 30 Grave Guard. I can tell you which one I'd put my money on to:

A) Survive the game.
B) Do any damage.

Sure, you need to fill your Core, but with Zombies you don't need to spend that much. They're not even that good of a tarpit unless you're fighting very average troops. Anything with multiple attacks eats through them so fast your head will spin.

Flash Felix
27-10-2010, 22:35
As a Dwarf player, I've got a Dragonslayer who'll hold up that block for even fewer points than you spend on it. Without magic, the zombies will take an average of 6 combat phases, or three turns to kill him (6 attacks a player turn hitting on 5s, wounding on 6s, to take 2 wounds).

You can hasten the process with magic, but that's an augment, hex or Helm of Commandment that isn't making the ghouls or Grave Guard that much better.

Spleen Hammer
28-10-2010, 01:26
80 zombies is 320pts, by the way.

And who cares if they survive? And for that matter, who cares if they do any damage? If you're taking zombies to kill things and high-five each other after the battle, you're doing it wrong. Zombies are for getting in the way and setting up flank charges by your Uber Vampire of Kitten Killiness, and really nothing more. Sure, you could load up on the Helm o' Com and take Okkam's Mindshaver, coupled with the Corpse Carts' bound spell and liberal application of Invocation of Whattheheck, but do you really want to go through all that trouble on a unit of zombies?

I always answer that question in the affirmative, I love all things zombie. Most other people don't.

Vampires do the killing, zombies do the annoying.

Pacorko
28-10-2010, 02:04
As it has always been meant to be, Spleen Hammer.

While I wouldn't go for that many zombies, I'm crazy enough to have fielded two 30-reanimated units flanked by two units of dire wolves (5x3) each, as my center. Skeletons and Grave Guard on the left side with my vamps; ghouls, corpse carts, and skellies on the right.

Won't say I won easily--I barely did. Still, I had a great time seeing my opponent scrambling to the sides trying to hit powerful [meaningful] units while I harassed him with the "****" units.

As always, if you need a "sooppah competitive" army for your "must win" tourney games, leave the zombies at home. You are best served with other units.

Kevlar
28-10-2010, 02:05
40 ghouls would be a much smarter use of the points.

Spleen Hammer
28-10-2010, 14:16
Yeah. I makes me a sad panda that zombies eat from the table of suck. I realize that they were never meant to be the "be-all, end-all" of the vampire counts, but c'mon! They should pack a little more punch. Especially since we have so few core units that "count" for the 25%.

I won't even try to pretend that I'll be winning any tourneys with my VCs, or even being in the running, for that matter. I suppose that's one of the reasons I'm starting an Empire army. That, and so my kids can get a game in with me from time to time.

And yes, the ghouls would be a smarter use of those points, but if one is dead set (eh, get it?) on using the squishy guys, then one must adapt and overcome.

meh

durmacar
28-10-2010, 16:11
With the group I play with we've quickly discovered "basic" 60+ horde units get annihilated in the magic phase by things like Dwellers Below, Black Sun, etc etc. S or T tests vs. zombies = the time it takes you to rank the unit being longer than they last in the game.