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Eternus
20-10-2010, 09:29
I know this is probably in the rulebook, but I don't have it to hand at the moment and have been put on the spot regarding a question, and would appreciate a little help from my esteemed fellow Warseers.

Question is, what types of units can assault buildings in 8th, is it just the various types of Infantry, or can other types assault a unit in a building as well, like cavalry and monsters?

theunwantedbeing
20-10-2010, 09:32
It's more than just infantry.

Although I can't say I've ever seen anyone play it using cavalry correctly.

Eternus
20-10-2010, 09:42
Hmmm. I may have to check the book - all infantry types I believe, but mounted units fighting their way into a building seems wrong.

Ney
20-10-2010, 10:52
It's more than just infantry.

Although I can't say I've ever seen anyone play it using cavalry correctly.

I am curious, what is the correct way?

It came up in a recent game i had, where I wanted to charge a building with some spider riders. We looked (quick glance as we were in the middle of the game) through the rules and couldnt find mention of cavalry being restricted from charging. So we just took 10 cav models, and discounted the bonus from spears. We were happy with the solution at the time, but if there is a better way to do it, please say so, and hopefully with page references if neccesary ;)

Ney
20-10-2010, 10:53
Hmmm. I may have to check the book - all infantry types I believe, but mounted units fighting their way into a building seems wrong.

You clearly need to see some westerns with riders charging into a saloon :D

Eternus
20-10-2010, 11:29
You clearly need to see some westerns with riders charging into a saloon :D

Cool! What do you recommend?

Korraz
20-10-2010, 11:30
Every unit is able to assault a building, but chariots suffer impact hits (from touching terrain, AFAIK.)

But only Infantry and Monstrous Infantry are able to enter it. Knights killing everyone inside: Yes. Going in: No.

theorox
20-10-2010, 11:39
Infantry, monstrous infantry, war beasts, monstrous beasts and swarms can garrison a building. :)

Theo

Korraz
20-10-2010, 11:46
Really, Beasts? Didn't know that.

Eternus
20-10-2010, 11:47
Cheers guys, as always, Warseer is the place to be when a swift response is required.

Haravikk
20-10-2010, 11:59
So we just took 10 cav models, and discounted the bonus from spears. We were happy with the solution at the time, but if there is a better way to do it, please say so, and hopefully with page references if neccesary ;)
What you did is essentially correct; cavalry can assault the building but are forced to dismount in order to do-so, meaning they receive no bonuses or attacks from their mounts, and fight with hand-weapons unless they have something more appropriate.

To be nice and confusing the actual rule is found under the Cavalry section, rather than the buildings section, so you'll find under "Cavalry and Buildings" on page 83. Basically it describes that Cavalry may not garrison a building as that'd mean leaving their mounts outside, however they may assault the building by dismounting as I mention above.

More confusing is that later on in the buildings section it mentions that Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts all counts as 3 models when forming an assault team, however as far as I can tell they should be fighting in the same way as cavalry (mounts are left behind) so in the games I've played where it's come up we've just assumed they count as one each and the riders are fighting as with regular cavalry. I'd be interested to know if anyone believes this is wrong though, as it seems to be a case of the rulebook contradicting itself as far as I can see.

theorox
20-10-2010, 12:04
Really, Beasts? Didn't know that.

That's what my magical 8-ball said! ;)

Oh...and the rulebook... :D

Theo

Lord_Elric
20-10-2010, 12:07
What you did is essentially correct; cavalry can assault the building but are forced to dismount in order to do-so, meaning they receive no bonuses or attacks from their mounts, and fight with hand-weapons unless they have something more appropriate.

To be nice and confusing the actual rule is found under the Cavalry section, rather than the buildings section, so you'll find under "Cavalry and Buildings" on page 83. Basically it describes that Cavalry may not garrison a building as that'd mean leaving their mounts outside, however they may assault the building by dismounting as I mention above.

More confusing is that later on in the buildings section it mentions that Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts all counts as 3 models when forming an assault team, however as far as I can tell they should be fighting in the same way as cavalry (mounts are left behind) so in the games I've played where it's come up we've just assumed they count as one each and the riders are fighting as with regular cavalry. I'd be interested to know if anyone believes this is wrong though, as it seems to be a case of the rulebook contradicting itself as far as I can see.

id agree monsterous cavalry should count the same as cavalry when leading an assault but i think its probably a game balancing thing if monsterous beasts and infantry can attack then (monsterous cavalry having a similar unit sive) so would monsterous cavalry after all have 3 bloodletters forced to dismount there juggernauts to fight 10 enemy models is pritty unbalanced. its just to give them a bit of a chance I think.

Ney
20-10-2010, 12:54
What you did is essentially correct; cavalry can assault the building but are forced to dismount in order to do-so, meaning they receive no bonuses or attacks from their mounts, and fight with hand-weapons unless they have something more appropriate.

To be nice and confusing the actual rule is found under the Cavalry section, rather than the buildings section, so you'll find under "Cavalry and Buildings" on page 83. Basically it describes that Cavalry may not garrison a building as that'd mean leaving their mounts outside, however they may assault the building by dismounting as I mention above.

More confusing is that later on in the buildings section it mentions that Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts all counts as 3 models when forming an assault team, however as far as I can tell they should be fighting in the same way as cavalry (mounts are left behind) so in the games I've played where it's come up we've just assumed they count as one each and the riders are fighting as with regular cavalry. I'd be interested to know if anyone believes this is wrong though, as it seems to be a case of the rulebook contradicting itself as far as I can see.

Thanks, no wonder we couldnt find it in the building sections then :rolleyes:

But yes it seems to be a contradiction that Monstrous Cav has to obey all the cavalry rules except dismounting when assaulting a building :wtf:

DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 14:28
Thanks, no wonder we couldnt find it in the building sections then :rolleyes:

But yes it seems to be a contradiction that Monstrous Cav has to obey all the cavalry rules except dismounting when assaulting a building :wtf:

You have actually quoted the correct rules - " Monstrous cavalry has to follow ALL cavalry rules except for wounds".
There is no exception.

Therefore Monstrous cavalry, like other cavalry, have to dismount AND 4 riders fight in the assault with no charging bonuses.

Ney
20-10-2010, 14:34
You have actually quoted the correct rules - " Monstrous cavalry has to follow ALL cavalry rules except for wounds".
There is no exception.

Therefore Monstrous cavalry, like other cavalry, have to dismount AND 4 riders fight in the assault with no charging bonuses.

Erm, you mean 3 right?

They ought to FAQ it so Monst. Cav that is regular infantry without their mounts get to fight 10 models like regular cav riders, and monsters on mounts (is there any besides rhinox riders?) will have to dismount and still count as 3 models.

Very silly that 2 dragons with chaos lords on top can fight people inside a building, but only 10 goblins without spiders, and only three bloodletters without their rhino-thingies. Hurray for balancing :shifty:

Atrahasis
20-10-2010, 14:39
Only one unit can assault at a time, and monsters can't join units, so the counts-as-five-models caveat for monsters seems to exist purely for Transformation of Khadon.

Ney
20-10-2010, 14:45
Only one unit can assault at a time, and monsters can't join units, so the counts-as-five-models caveat for monsters seems to exist purely for Transformation of Khadon.

Ah, I must have missed that bit. Thanks! Makes it a bit less silly, but still stupid for the poor bloodletters

Lord_Elric
20-10-2010, 15:22
Only one unit can assault at a time, and monsters can't join units, so the counts-as-five-models caveat for monsters seems to exist purely for Transformation of Khadon.

however 2 characters can join to together to form a unit on their own so can 2 characters riding dragons join together to for a unit of sorts???

Atrahasis
20-10-2010, 15:38
No. Monsters cannot join units.

Crimifa
21-10-2010, 11:28
unless... maybe with a really really really obscure situation

i am most likely wrong but howabout

two allied armies (doubles game), blood brothers level alliance

a beast wizard joins a unit and another beast wizard (from other army) does
both then cast transformation (this is about the only circumstance that i could see two transform spells being in the same army)

both then transform into dragons(they may remain in their unit correct? pretty sure that was one of those "ok... WTF.. right..." moments i had while reading the book) and the unit assaults the building... the two dragons could then form the 10 man assault team no?

lol... this is serious bending of plausible reality... but would that work?

as for the silliness of monsterous cav assualting buildings... works fine for rhinox riders lol... and does anyone honestly take 10 bloodcrushers in one unit? its silly to take more than 4 really... (sure 6 works... but two sets of 3 is actually better than 6)

Atrahasis
21-10-2010, 11:34
Your convoluted method of getting two Transformations is unnecessary -- one Loremaster ability is all that's needed.

Yes, in that case two monsters can charge together. However, since Transformation has already been recognised as the one situation where the number of models a monster counts as matters, I can't see the point of your pointing out another method whereby Transformation allows a monster to charge as part of a unit.

Ney
21-10-2010, 11:42
as for the silliness of monsterous cav assualting buildings... works fine for rhinox riders lol... and does anyone honestly take 10 bloodcrushers in one unit? its silly to take more than 4 really... (sure 6 works... but two sets of 3 is actually better than 6)

The sillyness is that IF you take 4+ you can still onlay assault with 3 of the bloodletters, even though they by themselves are just crummy infantry ;)

Haravikk
21-10-2010, 14:47
As I say we've just been assuming it was a typo whereby they've decided to make an exception for monstrous types and forgot about the cavalry exception.

In any event, there seems little reason to restrict monstrous cavalry to 3, as the monstrous mount is what makes them monstrous, and it doesn't get to fight, or do anything at all. So Bloodletters on Juggernaughts are just Bloodletters and so-on; if normal bloodletters get to fight in a group of 10, why not ones that brought a fancy ride with them?