PDA

View Full Version : Any Success with Little to No Magic?



Ender Shadowkin
20-10-2010, 20:44
Has anyone had any luck leaving your mages at home? If so what was your build? I have not gotten around to trying it myself. Having to much fun casting and/or obssessed with defense....But theoretically your not supposed to need a mage these days, anyone find that to be the case?

Enigmatik1
20-10-2010, 20:57
I have tried (and actually prefer) lists with only one Liche Priest (level 1) and barely lost against a Slaan LM list in a Battle for the Pass scenario. I think in order to make little/no magic work, you have to simply not care and stop trying to overcompensate for the inevitable Dweller's or Purple Sun that will instantly cost you the game. You're going to get blasted by spells that you can't stop. Just don't panic and try to play to your armies strengths...I think at the very least your army could end up being surprisingly competitive. The look of "WTF? You didn't field a High Priest against my OMGOPEDSLANNOFDOOM" was pretty telling and I fed off that to some degree to hold my own.

I mean would you really think a 2k TK list that's TK/TP/LP/IB would be able to stand up to a Slann LM list and make it sweat until Turn 6? None of my units wiped, the Bone Giant ran amok through his Saurus and my Tomb King got into BtB with his Slann at the end of Turn 6 with no TG left (King killed them all). All with no Casket and no SSCs and only one Scorpion. :wtf:

I was on one that day, because by rights, I should've been tabled by Turn 3 just by virtue of the blatant power disparity between the two lists.

jthdotcom
20-10-2010, 21:01
My ogres have no butchers, and have been winning a few games at 3k, tried a couple of games with vamps, ok, so had mages, but only used them for dispel, I didn't even cast an invocation of nehek, it kinda worked.

Feefait
20-10-2010, 21:05
I played against a Chaos Warriors army with my Beastmen, 2250 and the Warrior player had no wizards. It came down to a last turn, amazingly lucky combat turn for me to win the game. It made the game fats and simple. With the way magic works now he still had plenty of dispel opportunities so i didn't overwhelm him there. I'd say it's definitely possible, probably more so the lower the points values.

Tae
20-10-2010, 21:24
My WoC Slaanesh have a single Level 1 (with the puppet, enchanted shield and third eye of tzeentch) and has managed to hold off a Lore of Life Slaan+TG Bunker.

My DoC Slaanesh have a single level 1 (KoS) and managed to destroy a Tzeentch DoC army.

And in both cases the amount of power dice rolled was average or above (i.e. they didn't roll 3 PD for 4 turns in a row).

My DE used to run with no wizards but Ring of Hotek isn't what it once was :p so not tried them again yet as I find my DE are now more reliant on magic to help them win games.

D'Haran
20-10-2010, 21:57
I'd imagine that with certain armies it's easier to do, especially using the right race. Elves and WoC would be favorites for natural defense against the purple sun, while WoC and Ogres would be favorites against Dwellers. That said I've ran a Star/Moon dragon several times instead of another Lv4 Archmage list and done fairly well, though I pick up at least one Lv 2 mage, he seems to be enough magic wise as long as I play it safe with my dragon. I think the trick is a Lv4 mage is a huge threat and if you drop it you need to pick up something of equal value to your list.

Ender Shadowkin
20-10-2010, 22:32
I'd imagine that with certain armies it's easier to do, especially using the right race. Elves and WoC would be favorites for natural defense against the purple sun, while WoC and Ogres would be favorites against Dwellers. That said I've ran a Star/Moon dragon several times instead of another Lv4 Archmage list and done fairly well, though I pick up at least one Lv 2 mage, he seems to be enough magic wise as long as I play it safe with my dragon. I think the trick is a Lv4 mage is a huge threat and if you drop it you need to pick up something of equal value to your list.

yeah, I've not gone without at least lvl 2 so far, the +2 to dispell is pretty handy, especially as it turns into +3 when playing with the high elves.

In theory you could add another unit or two by forgoing the mage. I would think you would need a fast army that would get locked into hand to hand very quickly. Or a lot of artillery.. I wonder if an empire player who took an equivalnet value of artillery to an archmage (with gear) would be just as successfull. Probably not...vBut then again, thats about 3 mortars...

So far I'm hearing a lot of "didn't loose that bads..." as opposed to "no worries, the extra troops really came in handy" interesting , keep em coming folks!

Har666
20-10-2010, 23:50
My Mono-Khorne WoC list has gone pretty well so far, but I haven't come up against any really magic heavy armies as yet.

burad
21-10-2010, 02:35
A while back the Reman Legions reportedly did well without magic; but that was a while back.

BirchbarktheAncient
21-10-2010, 04:49
I play an all witch elf khainite army led by Hellebron. 2 units of 30 witch elves with assassins in each unit, a cauldron hag, and a war hydra. 2k list. I have been doing just fine. I just move forward and whatever happens.......happens. Played a Tzeentch army with magic doom list......tabled them in 4 turns. Magic, shooting, I'm not impressed. I just play and don't sweat the stuff I have no control over.

myrdinn
21-10-2010, 08:22
Friend of mine plays Empire and has absolutely smashed me on a couple of occasions with only a warrior priest and no battle wizards at all. This is vs wood elves - usually with an L3/L4 spellweaver.

Then again this may be due to the inability of most WE troops to kill anything with an armour save, and their propensity to be smashed into tiny little pieces whenever knights go anywhere near them.

Souppilgrim
21-10-2010, 08:47
I've done great with just 2 lectors for empire.

Andy p
21-10-2010, 10:18
Ive succeeded quite a few times with no magic in my lists, as I succeeded to fail multiple times.

BigbyWolf
21-10-2010, 17:10
The only list Irun without magic are my Vampire Counts, but I've not had the opportunity to try them in 8th yet. Considering I only had 2 DD in 7th, I'm looking forward to having a few more, as well as common MR items.

artisturn
21-10-2010, 18:00
That is going to be the approach I take with my Vampire Counts army now.

I am getting tired of my spell casters blowing up.

amysrevenge
21-10-2010, 18:07
The glib answer would be "every game I bring no magic, with my Dwarfs".

The answer more in the spirit of the question is that if I disregard magic defense (the Dwarf equivalent of "no magic"), then I have a pretty tough go of it.

Angry Mook
21-10-2010, 18:08
I've had pretty good luck with both my Lizardmen and my WoC without wizards.
I generally try to spend less than 25% of my army on characters of any type, and so far, the extra troops on the table really help quite a bit.

Adding a second unit of 18 warriors to the table seems to offer more tactical advantage than a single level 4 wizard.

The durability of Warriors and Saurus, as well as the low point cost of Marauders and Skink really takes the sting out of alot of what high point wizards can throw out.

Sloppyjayman
21-10-2010, 20:07
I ran a Saurus Oldblood, Saurus Scar-Vet, and Lvl 1 Skink Priest (D. Scroll) in a campaign throughout September. I went 5-0 and finished first. I even beat a teclis list to my surprise.

The way I see it is you have to dominate 2 Phases of the game to be competitive and 3 phases to dominate. My 2500 list had a crazy movement phase with 5 skink units, 1 terradon unit, 2 Salamanders, 3 stegadons (all movement 6 or better). Massive shooting phase with 80 poison shots, 3 bolt throwers, 2 Flaming Salamanders. Solid combat phase with 2 units of 24 saurus', one with the Oldblood and one with BSB Scarvet.

I just made it my goal to kill my opponents mages which is not that hard.

BigbyWolf
22-10-2010, 16:24
Tried a couple of games with vamps, ok, so had mages, but only used them for dispel, I didn't even cast an invocation of nehek, it kinda worked.

A Vampire army with magic users (even if they are non-casting ones)?

Heresy! ;)

I go all-out without...Konrad Von Carstein and Wight Kings all the way. Best game I had with them was back in 7th vs mono-Khorne Daemon(including 'thirster). Very quick game (Movement, Combat, Movement, Combat...) and incredibly bloody. In the end IIRC there was just Konrad and a handful of Black Knights on the field.

Sambojin
23-10-2010, 01:43
O+G can go pretty well with little/no magic. Either a Lv 2 with the staff of sneaky stealing, or a BSB with Mork's totem goes fine. Both together pretty much cancels magic for the opponent (-1PD to them, +4DD to you). It doesn't really matter how the winds blow, you get a good DD roll.

And both characters are handy to have anyway (BSB is pretty much mandatory these days).

Or go for the light magic barrage of 2x lv 2 NG shamans loaded with mushrooms and a powerstone. Wait for a lopsided magic wind roll and go a-blasting. Even a single lv 2 can catch people off guard sometimes. Orc shamans can kick out damage all out of proportion to their cost too. Any decent spell is like a "max-boosted" version of other lore's spells, just easier to cast.

I really wish O+G weren't the first to get a new book. We're in another one of our golden ages right now..........

Havock
23-10-2010, 01:57
Magic = go big or don't go at all. If you want to cast anything beyond throwing as many dice at a few spells as you can, take a level 4.

For dispelling attempts, a level 1 with a scroll just won't cut it. I suppose a HE level 2 would be fairly ok-ish but still.

Djekar
25-10-2010, 06:44
A friend and I tried out a few games where we took no magic against each other's normal lists and we came out of it alright. It was a little harrowing to come into each magic phase knowing that you had to be on your toes to make the right judgement calls about what you could let through and what you had to stop. There were a few "herp-a-derp" moments where one or the other of us ended a magic phase with a pile of dispel dice left, but overall it wasn't as terrifying as I thought it might be.

SilasOfTheLambs
25-10-2010, 15:01
I don't depend on offensive magic to win the game, and my current tourney list is wizard-free. That said, priests still have their spells and the pope wagon knows the lore of light, so it's not exactly a magic light list (2 priest, 1 pope).

John Vaughan
25-10-2010, 21:32
Magic = go big or don't go at all. If you want to cast anything beyond throwing as many dice at a few spells as you can, take a level 4.

For dispelling attempts, a level 1 with a scroll just won't cut it. I suppose a HE level 2 would be fairly ok-ish but still.

I'm gonna disagree. I get a long just fine with a single Sorcerer of Tzeentch (lvl 2) who carries a scroll (occasionally I'll run a second one with the Puppet, and if I feel like being a jerk, I have someone else in the army carry the Black Tongue just because of how OP forcing a miscast is now). I just ignore all but the most frightening magic, and live my life for the combat.

Havock
26-10-2010, 02:22
Problem being that against a level 4, you are going to need IF to get your spells through most of the time.

Likewise, against said level 4, you need to throw all your dice at one spell, most likely.

snyggejygge
26-10-2010, 12:30
I'm gonna disagree. I get a long just fine with a single Sorcerer of Tzeentch (lvl 2) who carries a scroll (occasionally I'll run a second one with the Puppet, and if I feel like being a jerk, I have someone else in the army carry the Black Tongue just because of how OP forcing a miscast is now). I just ignore all but the most frightening magic, and live my life for the combat.

I agree with you, I've been using a Tzeentch Exalted with Book of Secrets & a scroll as my only magic defense around here for more than 10 games now, I've only had problems once so far & that was against a HE list using a lvl 4 with Book of Hoeth & the magic banner that gives D3 extra PD, & against that list it wouldn't matter if I had a level 4 with 10 scrolls anyway.

Ended
26-10-2010, 13:43
I plan on running a mono-khorne army once i finish all the models... is it worth the 50 pts to take black tounge? or how about collar of khorne? Any other way to help defend against spells that ends up being worth the points?

Tae
26-10-2010, 17:46
Problem being that against a level 4, you are going to need IF to get your spells through most of the time.

Likewise, against said level 4, you need to throw all your dice at one spell, most likely.

That's fine, especially for a WoC army. You'll be in combat a hell of a lot quicker than last edition and a lot of spells just aren't as scarey for Warriors as others. Especally in formal settings where people can't tailor their magic lore.

Honestly my WoC have survived better against magic in 8th than they ever did in 7th.

John Vaughan
27-10-2010, 16:36
The Black Tongue used to be a lot better, but now spells get off a lot easier than they used to, considering that a caster can't cast the rest of the phase if they don't get it off. People are afraid to put particularly powerful sorcerers in that position. I find that the Infernal Puppet + Pandaemonium is the best bet for totally screwing over someone's magic phase. It's so mean it's ridiculous. Using their miscasts against them will do more damage than anything you can bring with you (other than maybe a horde of chosen, but then it's a points game).

Eltharil
27-10-2010, 20:30
Pandaemonium is so easy to dispell at the start of ennemy's magic phase...only need a 8 to remove it. That's not screwing over that magic phase at all.

sssk
27-10-2010, 22:03
I think this is a very army specific issue.

For instance when using my wood elves, if I don't take as much magic defense as I can reasonably muster, every turn I'll be saying goodbye to a unit or two against most magic (small expensive fragile units = magic missile paradise).

In contrast, with my goblins, I can happily take no magic, and just get barraged, then stop the absolutely important spells (not things like dwellers, but increases to strength and stuff like that), which might lead to my unit getting utterly mulched where it should hold its own.

.......obviously the goblin example is a bad one, as goblin wizards are cheap as chips, and nowadays, the goblin lore isn't so bad (in 7th, all of the spells were far too hard to cast, so I didn't bother that much, now they're pretty easy), so I'll tend to always have a level 4 at least. My point was that I COULD take no magic, not that I WOULD.

Hashulaman
28-10-2010, 08:39
I shudder at taking no magic in my army, not that a WoC army NEEDS magic, but because I'd feel not right without some magic. Sides, I blasting people with a thought :P and the puppet reduces the damage done from recklessness.

jmcg1989
29-10-2010, 11:42
My WoC Slaanesh have a single Level 1 (with the puppet, enchanted shield and third eye of tzeentch) and has managed to hold off a Lore of Life Slaan+TG Bunker.

My DoC Slaanesh have a single level 1 (KoS) and managed to destroy a Tzeentch DoC army.

And in both cases the amount of power dice rolled was average or above (i.e. they didn't roll 3 PD for 4 turns in a row).

My DE used to run with no wizards but Ring of Hotek isn't what it once was :p so not tried them again yet as I find my DE are now more reliant on magic to help them win games.

i dont think that woc soreror is legal
arent the blood of tzeentch and the puppet both arcane items?

Eltharil
29-10-2010, 11:44
i dont think that woc soreror is legal
arent the blood of tzeentch and the puppet both arcane items?

Third eye is equipped (chaos gift), not blood ;)

Khorneguy
29-10-2010, 12:11
My 8th edition list (still in my head - don't have time to play right now) is DE Khainite, so to be fluffy, I need to go with no magic.

For magic defence I'm thinking of using Hellebron at the head of a big unit of Witch Elves, using her Amulet of Fire as a magical buffer, with a Master with Ring of Hotek, either on a Dark Pegasus, or Manticore flying around disrupting magic. With no friendly casters to worry about catching with the ring, i think this could be nasty

I still need to have another through look through the magical defence options in the DE book, but that's my rough plan right atm.

Do people think this could work?

JackDaw
01-11-2010, 15:48
With the Ring of Hotek having been debuffed to the floor, I have now broken my 'no-mage' rule for my Druchii - admittedly its only a lvl 2 that i take, but shes held her own against lvl 3 mages and opponents with multiple lowl level casters.

Maybe its just my gaming group, but noones taken the uber-mage-o-death yet. Even if i do come up against one, i'll just shrug, take the hit on the nose and get on with the game.

So, in answer to the OP, yeah im running little magic and yeah ive had success. Once you release yourself from the fear of being magiced into the floor, its quite liberating.

Wyrmnax
01-11-2010, 18:48
Been running my Khorne WoC at 1500 with absolutely no magic.

Had mixed results. I think 1500 is just too small to ignore magic. I mean, i have ~5 units on the field. If one Dwellers or Purple Sun goes through (and they do), i loose half of a unit. It is a lot in such small games.

The problem is that whenever i need to dispel something a enemy has cast, i will be spending at least 1 more dice than he did because of his +2~4 to casting.

So.. mixed sucess. Still dont have many games under my belt with the army, but all my losses were against high-magic oponents.

wolsey
01-11-2010, 18:49
I have had success with my Bretonnians with no magic- spell casters, items or otherwise. I do use virtues but other than that I rely upon the might of Bretonnian chivalry to carry the day. I rely upon speed and amount of warm bodies (admittedly wrapped in steel and on a horse) to take the pain of magic.

Grey Mage
05-11-2010, 00:07
Problem being that against a level 4, you are going to need IF to get your spells through most of the time.

Likewise, against said level 4, you need to throw all your dice at one spell, most likely.

Im going to disagree here- when it comes down to it the +4 from a lvl 4 mage is the equivilant of one extra DD.

Thats not so bad.

friendsofrhomb
05-11-2010, 03:18
in a 750 point game, playing O&G, would two orc shamans be too many?
My opponent is playing WoC, with all units having mark of nurgle, so -1 to hit.
I was thinking that considering most of the spells in the big waagh dont require rolls to hit, it might be a good way to rack up some kills before getting into combat , especially against his pesky Chaos Chosen warriors

Grey Mage
05-11-2010, 03:31
Might not be a bad idea, but theres only so much they can do, and you can get a decent boyz unit for the price of a shaman with equipment.

Perhaps some Doom Divers instead, as a stone thrower has no to-hit roll? And its certainly strong enough to scratch the paint.

KronusDaSneaky
05-11-2010, 16:43
I note a lot of people seem to suggest the ability of a Tzeentch Demon magic gun line proof that little to no magic is needed. Perhaps in 7th, Beating it in 8th doesn't proof much other then you beat it in a edition is relatively weak in. Since the day 8th was released and the vast pd pool was fell from 20+ to 7 they haven't really been competitive. Flamers aside with only 2D6 powerdice to chomp on a Tzeentch magic gun line isn't really up to much any more and its one of the many demon builds now considered substandard. Its like fighting an empire gun line where the user needs to roll 4+ on every shooty unit and warmachine every turn to see if he has enough gunpowder to even fire that round. Sure mono Tzeentch deamons were scary but nowadays its about as sturdy as a three legged dog

However to answer the OP it really depends on your army and access to suitable magic defence. Many armies can make a good go offensive without magic but very few work well without any magical protection. Personally I like to run a little magic since if I am going to generate some pd without having to pay for them, someone might as well make use of them. I do prefer one high level mage to a bunch of low ranking ones though given the importance of adding a wizards rank to the casting value and more importantly for dispelling

Wyrmnax
05-11-2010, 18:50
Im going to disagree here- when it comes down to it the +4 from a lvl 4 mage is the equivilant of one extra DD.

Thats not so bad.

1 Extra DD per spell that you need to dispel.

You have less DD than your enemy has PD.

You enemy likely brought stuff that increases his PD. You pratically dont have acess to dispel scrolls or anything that increases your DD.


The problem isnt if your enemy cast mindrazor as his first spell. You just toss all your dice on it and pray. The problem is if your enemy cast mindrazor as his first and still has enough pd to cast dwellers, and probably a couple more lesser spells. And you will need 5~6 DD to dispel either of the big ones.

Grey Mage
05-11-2010, 22:50
1 Extra DD per spell that you need to dispel.

You have less DD than your enemy has PD.

You enemy likely brought stuff that increases his PD. You pratically dont have acess to dispel scrolls or anything that increases your DD.


The problem isnt if your enemy cast mindrazor as his first spell. You just toss all your dice on it and pray. The problem is if your enemy cast mindrazor as his first and still has enough pd to cast dwellers, and probably a couple more lesser spells. And you will need 5~6 DD to dispel either of the big ones.

Most armies have some way of getting extra dispel dice.

Though frankly if they hadnt royally screwed magic resistance this wouldnt be an issue... but thems the breaks.