PDA

View Full Version : DD Questions - Movement- Pivot



DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 20:47
Rules for pivots appear on pg 27, 57 and 109.

Please have a look at these pages before voting.

Please vote as many options as you see fit.

Thank you in advance for contributing :)

solkan
21-10-2010, 01:31
Is this an open book test, and can we consult other players? :angel:

And what does the question mean by "Warhammer movement"?

Chris_
21-10-2010, 03:01
+1, what is "Warhammer movement"? Please define :)

Yellow Commissar
21-10-2010, 03:43
Considering that it is in my Warhammer book titled "Warhammer" under the chapter "Movement" and involves actually moving the model(s) in question, I have to say that, yes, pivoting is movement.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 09:48
Sorry should have made myself clear. :)
Warhammer movement = movement deemed to be Movement according to Warhammer rules. Not movement in the sense commonly used.

E.g. when an archer shoots he has to move - pick up his bow, attach the arrow etc but none of these movements are deemed to be movement in Warhammer and hence has no effect on Move or shoot and rules affecting Movement.

Other types of movement which have been assumed (correctly) not to be Warhammer Movement are:
a) when a skirmisher unit ranks itself - closes all the gaps during charges.
b) when the command group automatically moves to the front after reforming
c) when a character auto moves to the front when joining
etc etc

All of the above types of movement have no effect on gameplay except (c) possibly.

Hence I used the term Warhammer movement.

Next post

Chris_
21-10-2010, 09:57
Considering that it is in my Warhammer book titled "Warhammer" under the chapter "Movement" and involves actually moving the model(s) in question, I have to say that, yes, pivoting is movement.And maybe the under the rules "Lone Models and Movement" where it clearly states it counts as moving :)

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 10:02
That is why I have used the term Warhammer movement of which there are 8 types, stated/explained in the rules:
1) Directly forward
2) Sideways
3) Backwards
4) Flee and Compulsory moves
5) Pursue (Overrun being a type of pursuit)
6) Reform
7) Wheel
8) Random (direction) moves

March, failed charge and charge incorporates 1 or more of the above.
(Have I missed anything?)

Turn and change formation present in past editions have been dropped.

Now Pivot.

Q1) Is it Warhammer movement i.e. is it in the list of 8 above or in the 'skirmisher gap closing category'? Your answer has an effect on Q3 and other rules e.g. spells etc affecting movement
- Consider Fulminating Flame cage on a warmachine that must pivot to shoot
or a spell that stops movement (cant think of 1 so far) will it also stop the WM from pivoting and shooting.

Q2) The BRB does not always state whether the pivotal centre should be. Most players assume it to be the base's centre. This is a real problem for chariots/lone cavalry/Monsters if a player chooses some other point for the centre.

Q3) The 1" restriction rule. Most players will agree that the pivoting model should be >1" at the end of the pivot but what about during pivoting?

Chris_
21-10-2010, 10:12
I don't really see the confusion. The WM-pivot is different from the Lone Models-pivot.

Q1) Lone Models section clearly says pivoting counts as moving (this applies to Lone Models moving in the remaining moves part of Movement Phase). WM part says WM have to pivot and it does not count as moving (thus would not trigger Fulminating Flame Cage).

Q2) It says "pivot on the spot", if you pick another point than the centre you will hard time justifying this, some common sense is in order here...

Q3) Pivoting for Lone Models counts as moving so you need to be outside 1" all the time as for any other of the 8 you mentioned.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 10:15
And maybe the under the rules "Lone Models and Movement" where it clearly states it counts as moving :)

Thanks for voting.

I wouldn't say clearly states but it is definitely one acceptable interpretation.
Hence the need for a poll.
I'll quote the rules here just to make it easier for the others

pg 27 " The 1 exception (to moving like a large unit) is a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes in the course of its move" bit in brackets is mine

pg 57 For both Flee and Pursue, the term pivot is not used but this phrase : "turn about its centre" - possible to deduce that this is pivot or it is not!

pg 109 "before you fire the WM. pivot it to face etc"

Chris_
21-10-2010, 10:17
"- altough a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on."

That's about as clear as it gets in Warhammer :D

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 10:37
Excellent! Thanks for spotting that.
That solves Q1,2,5 and 6

Chris_
21-10-2010, 10:41
I'd like to hear an argument where "on the spot" lets you move away from "the spot". If you pick another point (than the centre) to pivot on, you won't do it "on the spot" anymore, your model's centre and the whole model will be askew.

AMWOOD co
21-10-2010, 15:22
I'd like to hear an argument where "on the spot" lets you move away from "the spot". If you pick another point (than the centre) to pivot on, you won't do it "on the spot" anymore, your model's centre and the whole model will be askew.

Here, here. Afterall, if you pivot around one of a lone model's front corners it isn't called 'pivoting' anymore, it's called 'wheeling'. A pivot should be the centre of the model's base (or the model itself if it has no base).

PaintByNumbers
22-10-2010, 20:50
"On the spot." is ambiguous wording but it would still mean the center of where the model is positioned. If you pivot from a corner (or a spot that's not the models center) you are moving it from its original position (even if it is only a fraction of an inch) which would break the normal movement rules. And for finding the center of the model, all measurements are taken to the models base so the center of the base would be the models center. If it doesn't have a base you would have to judge the closest approximation to its center.

Haravikk
23-10-2010, 17:04
Well it seems that I've gone for leniency in my choices where others haven't, but when it comes down to it the rules themselves say not to worry about the half inch of inaccuracy, and unless an opponent is pivoting to do something clearly cheesy then I won't dispute passing within an 1" of a unit.

To be honest I don't even take the 1" apart rule that seriously in games at all, the purpose is to keep units enough apart that you can tell at a glance which are in combat and which aren't, if it becomes a problem I might pipe up and say "Hey you mind shifting that a unit a little so it's clear it's not in combat", but I don't find the 1" gap all that necessary during general play. In a tournament I may be more strict, but I don't play in very many at all.