PDA

View Full Version : DD Questions - Movement - Failed Charge



DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 20:57
I've got about a dozen questions so I'll release them per phase

Has a unit charged if it suffers a failed charge?

Consider this carefully first before looking at the next post. :)

DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 20:58
Seems obvious that a failed charge is NOT a charge but in that
case

A unit can reform after a failed charge (if it has a Musician) and even move during Remaining moves

Thank you in advance for contributing:)

Lord Inquisitor
20-10-2010, 21:02
Can you please add your context/reason for asking with each question before going "aha! but what about...?" [Edit, nevermind, I see your second post]

A failed charge is exactly that. A failed charge. A unit is not considered to have charged for anything pertaining to combat, which would be a successful charge, but it is not permitted to do anything else either.

[Edit] Well, obviously a unit cannot move or reform. Yes, a unit that has failed a charge is still considered to have "charged" for movement purposes.

Eltharil
20-10-2010, 21:06
Seems obvious that a failed charge is NOT a charge but in that
case

A unit can reform after a failed charge (if it has a Musician) and even move during Remaining moves

Okay. You are a god:p

If a failed charge is not a charge, a failed shot is not a shot. If it was not a shot, the unit didn't shoot. If the unit didn't shoot, you still can make it shoot(till u hit the target).

Need more cheese?:D

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 10:54
Okay. You are a god:p

If a failed charge is not a charge, a failed shot is not a shot. If it was not a shot, the unit didn't shoot. If the unit didn't shoot, you still can make it shoot(till u hit the target).

Need more cheese?:D

Yes, I'm not sure about your point here? Are you saying that a failed charge is a charge or is it not a charge?



A failed charge. , but it is not permitted to do anything else either.

That is true in previous editions but I have so far failed to find it stated in the Failed charge rules.
pg 19



[Edit] Well, obviously a unit cannot move or reform. Yes, a unit that has failed a charge is still considered to have "charged" for movement purposes.

pg 26 Moving your units - "units that did not charge etc etc can now move"
Therefore the question is, Is it true that a unit "did not charge" if it undergoes a failed charge.

The BRB does not use the term "succesfull charge" exclusively to mean a charge that succeeds.
It also uses the term "charge" in some places to mean a charge that succeeds.

shadow hunter
21-10-2010, 11:07
I just read it like you charge. You then either succeed and move as a succesful charge, or were unsuccesful and move as a failed charge. The type of move was still a charge however (carried out during charge section of movement phase)

Rooze
21-10-2010, 11:18
Okay. You are a god:p

If a failed charge is not a charge, a failed shot is not a shot. If it was not a shot, the unit didn't shoot. If the unit didn't shoot, you still can make it shoot(till u hit the target).

Need more cheese?:D

No, a failed charge is a charge that FAILED. 'Not being a charge' does not mean that it didn't try to charge at all! It indicates that in the process of trying to be be a charge, it failed in doing so, and reverts it's status to 'failed charge'. Then in subsequent phases, the unit must be allocated some form of status to indicate what it can and cannot do in regard to that phase, which will be called (for ease's sake) 'charged'.

This can also be applied to 'shots'.

This can also be applied to 'be a ruleslawyer', where one can clearly 'fail to be a ruleslawyer', but when considering the social implications , he/ she will be regarded as 'being a ruleslawyer' as if he/ she did succeed in that!

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2010, 13:57
That is true in previous editions but I have so far failed to find it stated in the Failed charge rules.
pg 19
Yeah, I see your point. That said, a failed charge is a subset of "charging" in the section under "charging"... it states that a unit that doesn't charge/move randomly/etc can move in the remaining moves... I think it's safe to say that this refers to failed charges as well as successful ones.

Are you looking for a particular advantage or just trying to poke holes in the 8th ed rulebook? Because we can be here a while for the latter... ;)

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 14:24
No, a failed charge is a charge that FAILED. 'Not being a charge' does not mean that it didn't try to charge at all! It indicates that in the process of trying to be be a charge, it failed in doing so, and reverts it's status to 'failed charge'. Then in subsequent phases, the unit must be allocated some form of status to indicate what it can and cannot do in regard to that phase, which will be called (for ease's sake) 'charged'.

This can also be applied to 'shots'.

This can also be applied to 'be a ruleslawyer', where one can clearly 'fail to be a ruleslawyer', but when considering the social implications , he/ she will be regarded as 'being a ruleslawyer' as if he/ she did succeed in that!

I think I understand your point here.
You've interpreted a charge as encompassing an attempt to charge.

Unfortunately it is not as straight forward as that as some players will strongly dispute that.

Only the rules matter as far as I'm concerned and until the rules satisfactorily shift the balance one way or the other, the question is still debatable.
Under 6th ed there was a similar problem with casting, successful cast and attempt to cast which resulted in a clearly stated differentiation in 7th ed between these 3.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 14:25
Yeah, I see your point. That said, a failed charge is a subset of "charging" in the section under "charging"... it states that a unit that doesn't charge/move randomly/etc can move in the remaining moves... I think it's safe to say that this refers to failed charges as well as successful ones.

Are you looking for a particular advantage or just trying to poke holes in the 8th ed rulebook? Because we can be here a while for the latter... ;)

1) Neither.
I own all 16 armies and play with all of them at different times. Trying to elicit unfair advantages of one army over another would be shooting myself in the foot.

As for mistakes/lack of clarity/even contradictions in the rules books -

firstly I may be wrong in thinking there is a mistake and I hope that someone may spot something I've missed.
It takes time to master a new set of rules and no matter what anyone claims we are all still learning.

Secondly I recognise that there will always be vagaries and even flaws in rules and although I can deal easily with them in actual games, it would be useful to know all opposing views, mistaken views and most importantly the majority view - maybe I should have polled this.

2) Until the rules specifically state that "a failed charge is a subset of "charging"" that unfortunately will still have to be an opinion only unless you've seen something else?:).

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2010, 14:57
Well, a failed charge is certainly not "compulsory movement" or "remaining movement". It's under the charging section, and it is a failed charge move. What kind of movement would you suggest?

The key line is "units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase" clearly refers to steps 1, 2 and 3 of the movement phase. It doesn't say "successfully charge" it just says "charge" so I would assume this means a unit that is selected to declare a charge is good enough.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 15:42
I actually prefer to interpret it your way but not because I can find rules support for it but because it is the way it has been played traditionally in previous editions.

Unfortunately there has been such a radical change in 8th ed, we have to ignore all that has gone by.

You've hit on another problem - the implied definition of Movement. Unfortunately there are no definitions in Warhammer - although they have made progress with Troop types.
I've approached the implied definition of Movement differently - see my thread/poll on Pivots.

The best argument in your favour I can think of is this:
The 'failed charge move' occurs during the Move charges section therefore it is by implication a charge.

However I've seen that reasoning countered by -
a) The chargers move in a failed charge but the rules do not state that they have charged i.e just moved
And
because
b) the word 'charge' elsewhere in the rules state that opposing units end in base contact

So, we are back to the question of, Is a failed charge a charge?

Finally, Can a unit that has moved before Remaining Moves, move again? - Yes.
Again not explicitly stated or explicitly disallowed by the rules but I can think of 2 cases at least where it happens.

T10
21-10-2010, 15:53
Your charge is either a "successful charge" or a "failed charge". p.18, very last paragraph.

Thus a "failed charge" still counts as a "charge". This means the unit is not eligible for further movement in the Remaining Moves part of the Movement Phase.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 16:07
Can't see "successful charge" used in the very last paragraph.

Perhaps you mean the very first paragraph - "the charge is successful"
and the "charge is failed"

B walks. C fails to walk.

I can't arrive at the conclusion that C has walked.

Substituting the word walk with charge ...

Sorry, I'm still hoping there are rules elsewhere that would clear this up.

Atrahasis
21-10-2010, 16:49
B walks. C fails to walk.

A closer (ie, not completely irrevocably flawed) analogy would be "B walks successfully. C's walk fails."

In your example, you're saying that an agent has failed to do something. The rules talk about an action failing, and not an actor failing to act.

An assault against a castle wall might fail, but an assault has still occurred. Contrast that with "the soldiers failed to mount an assault".

There's a distinct difference between a failed action and an actor failing to act.

solkan
21-10-2010, 18:50
A person argues, and has argued even when the argument fails. One might even go so far as to say that one may have trolled, even when that trolling has failed. :o But that's just a coincidental example, I assure you.

Page 18: "Work through the charges one at a time, in any order decided by the player whose turn it is, calculating the charge distance for each and resolving the resultant successful or failed charge ..."

And before that, "With all the charge reactions declared and resolved, it's time to see whether or not the charges were successful!"

Page 19: "A unit that makes a failed charge moves directly towards its target a number of inches equal to the highest dice rolled for the charge."

So, the rules certainly call a failed charge a charge; and it falls to the arguer to attempt to prove that a failed charge is not a charge.

Eltharil
21-10-2010, 19:38
Yes, I'm not sure about your point here? Are you saying that a failed charge is a charge or is it not a charge?


Seriously, how a failed charge could not be a charge? :shifty:Failed charge and successful charge are both charges as white horse and black horse are horses.
There is nothing to argue about:wtf

DeathlessDraich
22-10-2010, 10:38
A person argues, and has argued even when the argument fails. One might even go so far as to say that one may have trolled, even when that trolling has failed. :o But that's just a coincidental example, I assure you.

Page 18: "Work through the charges one at a time, in any order decided by the player whose turn it is, calculating the charge distance for each and resolving the resultant successful or failed charge ..."

And before that, "With all the charge reactions declared and resolved, it's time to see whether or not the charges were successful!"

Page 19: "A unit that makes a failed charge moves directly towards its target a number of inches equal to the highest dice rolled for the charge."

So, the rules certainly call a failed charge a charge; and it falls to the arguer to attempt to prove that a failed charge is not a charge.

Thank you!:)
At last a contribution based on the rules.

It's all on pg 18 solkan, and there's more:

1) "With all the charge reactions declared and resolved, it's time to see whether or not the charges were successful!"
- mentioned above

2) "Perhaps the charging unit is unwilling to close with the enemy and therefore hesitates in their advance"

3)"...loss of momentum as the chargers tire more quickly ..."

Some may regard that as fluff but it's still in the rule book.

All the above taken in conjunction with the Failed charge rules proves that a the word 'charge' does encompass 'failed charge' sometimes.

Exactly when and where will have to be worked out specifically but there should be no problems and Warhammer rules will never be exact and precise anyway.

Now I have the ammo to dispute the player who tried this tactic.

PaintByNumbers
22-10-2010, 13:18
You could also try page 15 second paragraph.

"Each unit will normally only be allowed to act in one sub-phase (with the exception of Start of Turn) unless it has special rules that permit it to do otherwise."

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2010, 14:54
Good find, yeah, that would be a pertinent line!