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DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 21:10
Rules on pg 22.

The diagram implies strongly that the charged unit can/must also be moved to maximise models when Closing the door.

Suppose there are obstructing units and impassable terrain in the way of Closing the door e.g. the rock on the diag. on pg 22 is in front of the charging unit, the rules state that the charge fails.

However it might happen that the charging unit may still just touch the charged unit at one point or with 1 model in btb - Clipping.

How wuld you then play this?

Thank you in advance for contributing:)

Eltharil
20-10-2010, 21:16
U can't just touch with a corner, diagrams p20 to 22 are pretty clear about this.
One of bothunit must close the door, if they can't then the charge failed.

DeathlessDraich
20-10-2010, 21:23
Please vote Etharil - every opinion counts

D'Haran
20-10-2010, 21:36
Eltharil has it right, if you can't close the door with either unit due to obstructions it's a failed charge, even says so in the book. That said with the ability to premeasure everything you should be able to figure this out before you declare a charge.

Synnister
20-10-2010, 22:33
Agree with the above. It's a failed charge.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 10:31
Sorry - a slight misunderstanding.
The poll is for an unavoidable clipped charge i.e. unable to maximise models, not for being unable to Close the door which as stated in the original post is a failed charge.

The attached diagram shows (A) charging (B) but the shaded impassable terrain and unit D prevents maximising models in btb.

1) Would you disallow this and treat it as a failed charge?
2) Would you allow this?
3) Would you shift the terrain and/or unit D to maximise

Atrahasis
21-10-2010, 11:32
There is still no sliding in 8th.

Elyssia
21-10-2010, 13:35
Sorry - a slight misunderstanding.
The poll is for an unavoidable clipped charge i.e. unable to maximise models, not for being unable to Close the door which as stated in the original post is a failed charge.

The attached diagram shows (A) charging (B) but the shaded impassable terrain and unit D prevents maximising models in btb.

1) Would you disallow this and treat it as a failed charge?
2) Would you allow this?
3) Would you shift the terrain and/or unit D to maximise

This is indeed quite different than the poll question.

This one is non-debatable. You must allow this charge and you cannot 'shift stuff' to gain more models in BtB.

The trick 8th has to get more models into BtB, is to have a reform occur after the first round of combat.

Haravikk
21-10-2010, 14:57
It depends on how silly the particular case is I suppose which is very much an as-it-happens kind of determination.

But in general it's a failed charge, no trying to squeeze through or past obstructions to make a stupid charge, if your enemy made sure something was in the way then they probably did it precisely to stop a charge.

decker_cky
21-10-2010, 15:30
There is cases where you could get a clip and both units close the door to make a charge possible.

Also...in the picture, you need a 1" gap between unit A and the impassable terrain. Don't have my rulebook with me, but can you ignore to 1" gap for impassable terrain during a charge?

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2010, 15:50
It depends on how silly the particular case is I suppose which is very much an as-it-happens kind of determination.

But in general it's a failed charge, no trying to squeeze through or past obstructions to make a stupid charge, if your enemy made sure something was in the way then they probably did it precisely to stop a charge.

which is why I feel it needs a poll as player B might have intended a failed charge but player A believes in clipped charges.

The poll results have proven to be a surprise so far.


There is cases where you could get a clip and both units close the door to make a charge possible.

Also...in the picture, you need a 1" gap between unit A and the impassable terrain. Don't have my rulebook with me, but can you ignore to 1" gap for impassable terrain during a charge?

1) The case where the Closing the door is possible is resolved. It is prevented maximisation that needs to be looked at.

2) 1" rule obviated by (A) because it is charging and it can be assumed that (B) is 1" away from the impassable terrain

T10
21-10-2010, 16:06
The issue here is that the charge will fail if you cannot close the door. The charging unit must do this if possible, and if it cannot then the charged unit must do so instead. It seems reasonable to assume that a unit in close combat cannot move to "close the door", thus charging a unit that is already engaged in close combat allows for less flexibility.

Beyond this, I don't see any big issues. If the best you can do is to bring one model from each side into close combat then that is good enough. But you still need to "close the door".

-T10

Atrahasis
21-10-2010, 16:44
The poll results have proven to be a surprise so far.Largely because the poll options aren't clear, I would hazard to say.

Haravikk
21-10-2010, 17:19
which is why I feel it needs a poll as player B might have intended a failed charge but player A believes in clipped charges.
Well I'm not sure the poll is so useful to be honest, as it's situational so it's more a case of agreeing with the other player or rolling for it.

Typically though, unless you've done something clever to make the charge possible then it's going to be either a case of the other player not being careful enough and allowing a barely possible charge to occur, or the charging player grasping at straws to make a charge possible. If it's between these two then I'd usually expect the charging player to back down and just manoeuvre a better charge next turn, or agree/roll for it.

decker_cky
21-10-2010, 17:40
If you can make the charge with a clip....even corner to corner, then that's maximization. The most models you can possibly reach combat with. The only problem with the picture you have is that neither unit is respecting the 1" gap around impassable terrain (I think this has to be enforced even in charges).

If 1 model is the most models possible in a charge, then that charge is maximized.

T10
21-10-2010, 23:04
The 1" apart rule does not apply to the charge. Apparently this also extends to the target unit when it falls to this one to "close the door".

But yeah, making contact with some of the models is still than none when it comes to the requirement that you must "bring as many models as possible into base contact".

Actually, all this is spelled out pretty concisely in the rules on p.20.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
22-10-2010, 10:44
If you can make the charge with a clip....even corner to corner, then that's maximization. The most models you can possibly reach combat with. The only problem with the picture you have is that neither unit is respecting the 1" gap around impassable terrain (I think this has to be enforced even in charges).

If 1 model is the most models possible in a charge, then that charge is maximized.


The 1" apart rule does not apply to the charge. Apparently this also extends to the target unit when it falls to this one to "close the door".

But yeah, making contact with some of the models is still than none when it comes to the requirement that you must "bring as many models as possible into base contact".

Actually, all this is spelled out pretty concisely in the rules on p.20.

-T10

Yes, true, agreed and pertinent answers. Thank you.
So discounting the 1st 2 poll replies (due to a misunderstanding) we are running neck and neck between choices (1) and (2)