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View Full Version : Just a couple 8th ed queries



spammy86
21-10-2010, 23:24
Ok so played my first game of 8th ed tonight - I know, late in getting there but haven't been playing much of anything recently, god damn work! - and overall I'd say I enjoyed it. I'm a vamps player and was a little worried at the changes mainly to do with fear and Initiative but overall it was a fairly balanced game. I was against Skaven, 1500pts and I won, I think...

The biggest problem we had were all the subtle changes in the rules. As this was a new rule book we found ourselves questioning every little thing in case the new edition had changed it in some ways. What we discovered was little rules which we took for granted in the previous editons either weren't there anymore or that I just couldn't see them.

So I have a couple questions that I'm hoping you guys can set straight for us. They may very well be in the rule book but as I said, we were in the middle of trying to play the game and didnt want to waste time searching for rules, which on first glance don't appear to be there at all. So here goes:

1. What are the 'Look out Sir' rules for characters INSIDE a unit. We could find the rules for lone characters but what happens if a unit containing a character gets targetted by shooting. e.g. 4 Blood Knights and a Vampire Lord get hit and wounded 3 times by Jezzials. There are no armour saves to be taken and I wanted to put one of the wounds on the Lord to save one of my knights. Would I have been allowed to do that? Furthermore, how are wounds allocated in a unit like that? Can the character elect to take the wounds or does everyone else need to take a wound first before the hero can be hit?

2. What are the requirements to gain a +1 CR for a Flank charge? Does the flanking unit need to have a unit strength of at least 5 like in the old edition or has this been changed and if so where does it tell you this? The only rules we could find were for negating enemy ranks. e.g. a doomwheel charges my Ghouls in the flank, we know from the rules this does not negate my ranks as it doesn't have two ranks but cannot find a rule anywhere to say if it gains +1 CR for a flank charge. In the end we used the rule from the previous edition to say that as it has a US of 5 then it does. gain the +1 CR

3. What counts towards Victory Points? In the rules it states only units completely destroyed count. Does this mean that if by the end of the game there is a single model left in every enemy unit then you get nothing? Also do units fleeing at the end of the game count as destroyed for VP purposes?

Maybe I'm blind and the rules are right there but I couldn't see them and now my head hurts and I need to sleep.

Thanks in advance for any help guys.

Chris_
21-10-2010, 23:32
1) Pg. 99 "Shooting" in the Character section. It explains what happens if the unit the character is with is over 5 RnF models and what you do then or under.

2) The flank/rear bonus you get if you are fighting the enemy to the flank/rear, no requirements on size. But if you at the same time have 2 full ranks you also disrupt.

3) You have it right, only completely destroyed units. So no VP anymore for units fleeing at the end of the game or under half strength.

Lord Inquisitor
21-10-2010, 23:41
1. It's a 2+ just as before but only if the character is the same unit type.
2. There are no requirement for a flank bonus beyond having at least one guy in the flank! Yes a single guy will do it.
3. You are right on victory points. Points for destroyed or fled the game, under half strength or fleeing means absolutely nada.

Chris_
21-10-2010, 23:48
1. It's a 2+ just as before but only if the character is the same unit type.
2. There are no requirement for a flank bonus beyond having at least one guy in the flank! Yes a single guy will do it.
3. You are right on victory points. Points for destroyed or fled the game, under half strength or fleeing means absolutely nada.Well actually in his case with the Jezzails there is no LoS! as they use BS to hit. If there are 5 or more RnF they can't hit the character at all, 4 or less he has to allocate wounds as evenly as possible.

See, now you made me go and spell it all out even though I wanted him to look it up himself :P Ah, and also the LoS! also only applies if there are 5 or more RnF (champion does not count as RnF).

spammy86
21-10-2010, 23:49
Thanks guys. I'll check the book next chance I get. But does this mean that i can put at least one of the wounds on the Lord if I wish?

I'm sorry but thats just plain ridiculous. He charged me in the flank with a Warplock engineer and gets +1 CR for it?!?!

Ok, again a bit rubbish but least thats cleared it up.

Thanks again.

*EDIT*

Ahh, cool just saw the new post. I would've been sitting here reading the book myself if I had my own copy with me. I just wanted it all clarified before I went to bed as I'd never sleep!

Chris_
22-10-2010, 00:13
No worries dude :) You could've saved one of your knights. The controlling player (of the unit being hit) allocates wounds as evenly as possible. So in your example, one wound each on 3 models.

Lord Inquisitor
22-10-2010, 00:18
Well actually in his case with the Jezzails there is no LoS! as they use BS to hit. If there are 5 or more RnF they can't hit the character at all, 4 or less he has to allocate wounds as evenly as possible.

See, now you made me go and spell it all out even though I wanted him to look it up himself :P Ah, and also the LoS! also only applies if there are 5 or more RnF (champion does not count as RnF).
Pfff, you expect me to read the whole example given? TLDR man! :p

theunwantedbeing
22-10-2010, 09:11
4 or less he has to allocate wounds as evenly as possible.

You mean allocate hit's as evenly as possible, not wounds.

Chris_
22-10-2010, 09:14
You mean allocate hit's as evenly as possible, not wounds.That is what I meant :p

Ney
22-10-2010, 09:18
I'm sorry but thats just plain ridiculous. He charged me in the flank with a Warplock engineer and gets +1 CR for it?!?!

Ok, again a bit rubbish but least thats cleared it up.


Yes, but only if the Warplock engineer actually survives until the end of battle ;)

spammy86
22-10-2010, 15:57
Ah, good point my friend! *note to self, kill that meddling engineer!*

RMacDeezy
22-10-2010, 19:47
@ chris_

good call on the champ not qualifying as RnF, i totally missed that

sharanac
23-10-2010, 18:12
Hi,
I have some additional 8th edition questions, maybe someone can help...

Tomb Kings

Vanguard rule, last paragraph. TK player goes first in the first turn. He is not allowed to charge with fast cavalry in the movement phase. But what if the incantation of Urgency is cast upon them in magic phase? Are they allowed charge then? It should be fair to allow charge, since opponent is no longer defenseless (he can dispel incantation)

Skaven

FAQ says that Plague furnace gains 1 attack from frenzy to total of 7. Should it be 6 attacks from monk crew (no frenzy, strength 3) + 1 attack from furnace (starts with no attacks but gains 1 from frenzy, so that one is resolved with strength 5)?

In the game I played few days ago I opposed Nurgle daemons army. I have failed to dispel Maisma of pestilence spell in the moment when abomination and Plague furnace were in contact. How does it affect special attack of abomination? Does it reduce it to 1 str 1 attack, or should I still roll for the type of attack but resolve it at strength 1 (as if abomination has this one special attacks, but with multiple "hits")?
What about PF? does ti only affect attacks from priest and monks, or should it also be applied (how?) to Enshrouded by fog and wrecker?

Thanks for all ideas how to solve this...

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2010, 18:47
Vanguard rule, last paragraph. TK player goes first in the first turn. He is not allowed to charge with fast cavalry in the movement phase. But what if the incantation of Urgency is cast upon them in magic phase? Are they allowed charge then? It should be fair to allow charge, since opponent is no longer defenseless (he can dispel incantation)
Very good question. The same applies to the Vampires' dire wolves and Vanhels. It says you can't "declare" a charge on the first turn. Does magical charges count as declaring or do they just happen? I would say that probably you can't charge as a magical charge still typically has charge reactions, but the text is open to interpretation both ways. I don't have the TK book... does it say "declare" a charge?


FAQ says that Plague furnace gains 1 attack from frenzy to total of 7. Should it be 6 attacks from monk crew (no frenzy, strength 3) + 1 attack from furnace (starts with no attacks but gains 1 from frenzy, so that one is resolved with strength 5)?
No, the CREW gain the +1 attack. So they have 6 attacks for the "crew" (which is considered a single entity) for a total of 7, all at the crew's strength.


In the game I played few days ago I opposed Nurgle daemons army. I have failed to dispel Maisma of pestilence spell in the moment when abomination and Plague furnace were in contact. How does it affect special attack of abomination? Does it reduce it to 1 str 1 attack, or should I still roll for the type of attack but resolve it at strength 1 (as if abomination has this one special attacks, but with multiple "hits")?
Still resolve the attacks as normal. The HPA is a mess as far as rules are concerned. Technically speaking, since they're special attacks, I think they still resolve as listed. So Feed is a special attack and it is still S6 on everyone in base contact, even though the HPA is S1. Flailing Fists is 3D6 attacks with the HPA's profile, so at S1. Avalance is still S6 if you fail the I-test, but the 2D6 automatic hits are at S1. So if it's specifically stated that's it's a S6 hit, then it is unmodified (also by any buffs the unit gets), but if it is just a "hit" then it's per the HPA's strength.


What about PF? does ti only affect attacks from priest and monks, or should it also be applied (how?) to Enshrouded by fog and wrecker?
God I hate the Skaven book. Okay, again, if it just says "hits" then it's per the profile, (so S1!), but if it specifies a Strength, then it's unaffected. So Enshrouded by Fog is just "hits" so will be S1, Wrecker Attack on the other hand is specified to be S5 so unaffected.

stripsteak
23-10-2010, 18:56
Very good question. The same applies to the Vampires' dire wolves and Vanhels. It says you can't "declare" a charge on the first turn. Does magical charges count as declaring or do they just happen? I would say that probably you can't charge as a magical charge still typically has charge reactions, but the text is open to interpretation both ways. I don't have the TK book... does it say "declare" a charge?
The TK book says they get an extra movement phase, and all the rules for normal charges apply. So they still have to declare and all that jazz. They are still limited by the vanguards no declaring clause. I think vanhels is the same but open to a little more debate since it isn't worded as clearly as TK.

As far as i know the ones that get around Vanguard are the spells that just count as charging if you make contact like WAAAGH!

sharanac
23-10-2010, 20:53
Thanks for the quick reply.
I would just notice that Enshrouded by Fog is auto wound, so there is no strength.

Lord Inquisitor
23-10-2010, 21:29
The TK book says they get an extra movement phase, and all the rules for normal charges apply. So they still have to declare and all that jazz. They are still limited by the vanguards no declaring clause. I think vanhels is the same but open to a little more debate since it isn't worded as clearly as TK.

As far as i know the ones that get around Vanguard are the spells that just count as charging if you make contact like WAAAGH!
Yeah, I'm inclined to say that Vanhels doesn't allow turn 1 charge if you use Vanguard. Then again, most of the time you'll be able to achieve a turn 1 charge just from march+vanhels, but at least it wouldn't be a flank charge...

Thanks for the quick reply.
I would just notice that Enshrouded by Fog is auto wound, so there is no strength.
Right, it's a toughness test or take a wound, my bad. That's what I get for reading the first half of the entry :o You get the idea anyway.

Chris_
23-10-2010, 23:46
Since both the TK and VC movement spells mention "as a normal Move in the Movement Phase" none are able to make a charge with a Fast Cav unit that used its Vanguard move and goes first. We've had this discussion before.