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Scriboergosum
22-10-2010, 13:05
I've been looking over the rules for multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons, and I just want to make sure I've got them right, so here goes:

All multiplication takes place after saves, so a MW weapon hitting a single MW model is easy enough to handle. You roll to hit, to wound, take any saves and then you multiply the wounds that are left.

A CC weapon that inflicts multiple wounds hitting a unit of MW models is open to two interpretations, and reading the rules, I'm not quite sure which is right.
Let's say a CC weapon that does D3 wounds hits a unit of Ogres and after saves 4 wounds are left. Do you then distribute the wounds, so that 3 go to one Ogre and 1 goes to another, meaning that at most 2 Ogres will die (The first is definitely dead, the second snuffs it, if the D3 roll comes up a 3), or do you multiply the 4 wounds before distributing them, so that 4-12 wounds can be inflicted, killing up to 4 Ogres?

More than this, we have certain template weapons doing more than one wound. Cannons are straightforward and well described in the rules, but what about something like the Warpfire Thrower, which does D3 wounds?
Again, let's say it hits a unit of Ogres and the template touches 5 of them, all rolls to wound succeed. Do you take 5 wounds, killing 1 Ogre outright and giving a second Ogre 2 wounds that can then become between 2 and 6 wounds after D3-rolls, or do you roll a D3 for each model hit, as templates hit specific models, then add up the wounds and remove whole models, because spreading wounds around is not allowed?

The wording on p. 45 leads me to believe the more powrful interpretation of both situations is correct, but I wanted to hear the general consensus on this.
Tried searching, by the way, and couldn't find anything dealing with this particular problem, so I hope it's not a repeat question :)

Atrahasis
22-10-2010, 13:16
Multiply wounds remembering that no multiplier can exceed the number of wounds on the target unit's profile, and then remove as many models as satisfies the loss of wounds.

So, in your ogre example, 4-12 wounds will be lost. If the weapon inflicted D6 wounds, the same would be true as each unsaved wound can only be multiplied to 3 (the number of wounds on an ogre's profile).

Lord_Elric
22-10-2010, 14:27
The best way to work out the wounds caused is as follows,

using your example above you caused 4 wounds on a unit of ogres as each D3 is only a single model the maximum ogres u can kill is 4 (the 4 you caused)

best way to work it out is too roll the D3 one wound at a time so say the 4 D3 come up
2, 2, 3, and a one

The first 2 take 2 wounds from the first ogre

The second 2 take the last wound from that ogre but does not carry over to another model (note it still counts toward combat resolution)

The third roll of a 3 would kill one more ogre

and the last roll of a 1 would knock a wound from the third ogre

this is how I interpreted the rules anyway due to the way the wounds are multiplied after being saved and not before.

Atrahasis
22-10-2010, 14:38
Lord_Elric, i'm afraid you're wrong.

Tarian
22-10-2010, 14:40
I think your interpretation is incorrect, Elric, and Atrahasis has it right, as the wounds can leak over, they just can't be multiplied past the maximum value of the model. (No killing 2 Ogres with 1 Cannonball, etc.)

Ninja'd by Atrahasis!

Eltharil
22-10-2010, 16:17
I think your interpretation is incorrect, Elric, and Atrahasis has it right, as the wounds can leak over, they just can't be multiplied past the maximum value of the model. (No killing 2 Ogres with 1 Cannonball, etc.)

Ninja'd by Atrahasis!

That's not what is said in the brb.
P45, left column, midle of the first paragraph.

DeathlessDraich
22-10-2010, 17:10
"For example , a cannonball wounds 3 Ogres. Player rolls to determine the number of wounds on each Ogre, inflicting 2 wounds on the 1st, 2 on the second and 6 on the 3rd (only counts as 3 wounds on the 3rd Ogre since that is the maximum a single Ogre can suffer). The unit has therefore a total of 7 wounds (2+2+3) so the player removes 2 Ogres and records 1 additional wound on the unit"
pg 51 of BRB

except it's 7th ed :D

Pity this illuminating example is not used in 8th but I believe the mechanism is unchanged

Calculate and discount the 'wasted wounds' from the wound multipliers first.
Then divide total wounds among wounded models in the usual way.

A simple check is that there cannot be more wounded models after wound multiplication than before
i.e. 4 models wounded before multiplying = max of 4 models removed as casualaties

Lord_Elric
22-10-2010, 17:14
That's not what is said in the brb.
P45, left column, midle of the first paragraph.

Actualy i do think athrasis is right from the same page reference under multiwound hits on multiwound models.

"Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models"

So I stand down corrected.

Tarian
22-10-2010, 17:19
Wait... wait... did we just have a civil rules dispute that ended cleanly? On Warseer?!

Lord_Elric
22-10-2010, 17:48
Wait... wait... did we just have a civil rules dispute that ended cleanly? On Warseer?!

ummmmm.......ummmmm wait a second I can solve this

Atrahasis YOUR WRONG!!!! cus erm .................you smell!


There "phew" the balance is restored. For a minute their I thought we was going to have a really bad case of agreement on our hands then, didnt want the s@#t spreading across warseer now did we. :P

knightwire
01-11-2010, 02:51
Saw a situation the other night were there was a Swordmaster unit with the flaming banner hitting an eight model strong Treekin unit (4x2). The SMs ended up doing 8 unsaved wounds, which then the HE player applied the flaming one model at a time. (he basically applied a wound, then doubled it, then applied the next would and removed the model thus wasting the flaming hit on every other wound)

This basically means he only used 12 of 16 wounds and removed 4 models. I though he should be getting the 2nd wound on all of them and should have removed 5 models with a wound left over.

Which method was correct?

Lord_Elric
01-11-2010, 08:33
look at my last post here

EDIT last serious one

Atrahasis
01-11-2010, 08:35
He has caused 16 wounds on the unit (8x2), and so kills 5 Treekin and takes one wound off another.

Ramius4
06-11-2010, 03:20
He has caused 16 wounds on the unit (8x2), and so kills 5 Treekin and takes one wound off another.

Not true. Page 45: "MULTI WOUND MODELS AND MULTI WOUND WEAPONS"

"If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapn that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more Wounds than it has on its profile)."

The relevant part is in bold. So yes, you do figure out the wounds against individually, with no model suffering more than it has on its profile (there isn't any 'overkill' spilling over onto the rest of the models. Only then are they applied against the unit as a whole.

It's much like the center hole of a stone thrower. Only that model takes the D6 Wounds. You don't spill them over onto the rest of the models around it.

Therefore in the above example, 8 wounding hits have been caused, and counting them individually with Flaming attacks we get the following answer: The first unsaved hit causes 2 wounds, then the second hit causes 1 wound, killing the first Treekin (and discounting the excess multiplier because you can't suffer more wounds than are on your profile). Rinse and Repeat, so you end up with a grand total of 12 wounds caused on the unit and 4 dead Treekin.

That's as clear as it gets Atrahasis. You're incorrect.

solkan
06-11-2010, 04:49
Ramius4's position is based on the mistaken understanding that rank-and-file MODELS are wounded according to the procedure described. If you have a unit of 5 Bloodcrushers that takes two wounds, none of the individual models are wounded. It's not even possible to ask "Was this rank and file model wounded before?" when talking according to the rules for wounding multi-wound units.

What page 45 says is that when a 2W model is hit by a D3 wound weapon, it's going to either suffer 1 wound or 2 wounds, because 3 would exceed its profile. If you have 6 attacks that hit and wound that are each going to cause D3 wounds each, that means that against a 2W opponent you roll D3 six times treating the threes as two's.

Then, you eliminate models according to the total and "note any spare wounds on the unit."

DeathlessDraich
06-11-2010, 12:02
Not true. Page 45: "MULTI WOUND MODELS AND MULTI WOUND WEAPONS"

Therefore in the above example, 8 wounding hits have been caused, and counting them individually with Flaming attacks we get the following answer: The first unsaved hit causes 2 wounds, then the second hit causes 1 wound, killing the first Treekin (and discounting the excess multiplier because you can't suffer more wounds than are on your profile). Rinse and Repeat, so you end up with a grand total of 12 wounds caused on the unit and 4 dead Treekin.

That's as clear as it gets Atrahasis. You're incorrect.


.

What page 45 says is that when a 2W model is hit by a D3 wound weapon, it's going to either suffer 1 wound or 2 wounds, because 3 would exceed its profile. If you have 6 attacks that hit and wound that are each going to cause D3 wounds each, that means that against a 2W opponent you roll D3 six times treating the threes as two's.

Then, you eliminate models according to the total and "note any spare wounds on the unit."

Isn't this similar (or is it not) to Ramius' method? - I think?
Using your example, 6 D3 wounds on a 2W enemy models rolling 33122.
By your method the rolls become 22122 yielding 9 W - killing 4 models with 1 W inflicted on 1 surviving model

i.e. we all actually agree :)


Saw a situation the other night were there was a Swordmaster unit with the flaming banner hitting an eight model strong Treekin unit (4x2). The SMs ended up doing 8 unsaved wounds, which then the HE player applied the flaming one model at a time. (he basically applied a wound, then doubled it, then applied the next would and removed the model thus wasting the flaming hit on every other wound)

This basically means he only used 12 of 16 wounds and removed 4 models. I though he should be getting the 2nd wound on all of them and should have removed 5 models with a wound left over.

Which method was correct?

Short answer: 5 models with 1W left over.

The rule is "determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds it has on its profile)" and the Model with more than 1W rules - see below

'Multiplied wounds' cannot be carried over
and in this case they are not!:)

8 Treekin have been hit/wounded and each suffers 2 wounds.
There are no wasted wounds since each wounded Treekin has suffered fewer wounds than it has on its profile.

This is crucial because only wasted wounds can be discounted.
Since there are no wasted wounds , all 16 W must be used.

There cannot be 8 Treekin with 1W left on each model. - Models with more than 1 W rules - "remove as many models as possible. You must not spread the wounds throughout the unit"

Therefore
The wounds are aggregated into the unit, killing 5 Treekin with 1W left on the 6th model.

The method which I suggested in my previous post is an easy check:
1) Calculate and discount the 'wasted wounds' from the wound multipliers first.
2) Apportion all wounds (unwasted) to the unit

(1) I feel is vital in working out these scenarios

Lord_Elric
06-11-2010, 14:25
However what ramius is trying to say is you apply each multiple wound 1 at a time and remove a model every time you score enough wounds to remove a model discounting anythin you score over the required wounds total and restarting from 0 wounds every time you move onto a new member of the unit, this is however incorrect

as previously stated wounds are multiplied first with no single wound being capable of scoring more than the wounds on the models profile these are then added together and the appropriate number of models for the wounds caused are then removed...

narrativium
06-11-2010, 15:32
If a Treekin suffers two wounds doubled to four by Flammable, it suffers three wounds, so eight such wounds pre-doubling would remove four Treekin models.

Lord_Elric
06-11-2010, 15:51
If a Treekin suffers two wounds doubled to four by Flammable, it suffers three wounds, so eight such wounds pre-doubling would remove four Treekin models.

Unfortuneatly not

Eight wounds each one doubled to 2 is a total of 16 wounds

as each singular wound dosnt exceed the W characteristic of the model no wounds are lost (unless the first model has been reduced to 1 wound) causeing 8 wound youve effectivly caused 2 wounds on 8 models and as "casualtys" are removed in whole models you have to remove a number of models equal to the wounds caused... "wounds" and different to "casualtys"

however say 3 wounds causeing d6 wounds each on a unit of 2 models each model having 3 wound each the multiple wounds are rolled and come up 1, 1, and 6 the 6 is reduced to 3 (max W of any single model) giving a total wounds caused of 5 causing a single "casualty" leaving the last model with 1 wound remaining

Atrahasis
06-11-2010, 15:54
If a Treekin suffers two wounds doubled to four by Flammable, it suffers three wounds, so eight such wounds pre-doubling would remove four Treekin models.

Why are you grouping two wounds together?

Each wound can only be multiplied to a maximum of the wounds on the model's profile, therefore each wound can be doubled.

8 wounds therefore doubles to 16, removing 5 treekin and inflicting one wound on a 6th.

narrativium
06-11-2010, 16:27
Oh yeah. Am idiot. Each wound causes two, which is less than three... yeah. 5 dead, one wounded.