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Nyctha
23-10-2010, 02:06
Heya, I've been playing around with the Ogre Kingdoms recently and a friend of mine who plays Skaven asked a question which i don't know the answer to and am having clarifying in the BRB...

Do you take the test for Fear causing units charging you before or after the Impact hits?

They both occur before combat ensues as you charge, but since my friend is a Skaven player who gets leadership from his ranks he wants to make it known that the fear test comes first since otherwise my Ogres could charge, the impact hits maybe taking away a rank and reducing the chance of him passing his test. Naturally i would prefer it to be impact hits first, but neither of us can find a definitive answer.

I know its nit-picking at a tiny thing, but i'd love to know the answer.

Thanks in advance

Chris_
23-10-2010, 02:30
Fear - Start of CC phase.
Impact Hits - Very beginning of CC phase.

Since they both practically mean start of CC phase (some could argue that Impact happens before but with the general vague wording in the BRB I would think the timing implied is the same, I could not see someone trying to argue the other way around though with the wording in the BRB in mind) that would mean the player whose turn it is picks the order in which they are resolved. I.e. since you would be charging with your Bulls you can choose that the Impact Hits happen before the Fear test.

If your friend has a problem with this, refer him to BRB pg. 10 "Sequencing".

RMacDeezy
23-10-2010, 02:31
i'm still looking for a rock solid solution for you but by the precedent set, these are resolved according to the player who's turn it is, which ogres=>charge=>impact hits is you. look at the FAQs and they have several situations similar to this which are resolved in this manner. like i said tho, i'm trying to find something solid...

GGaaahhh!!!! ninja'd

Ramius4
23-10-2010, 03:44
I just did as much reading of both rules a couple of times just to see if there was anything I missed.

Chris has the right of it, refer to page 10 'Sequencing'. They both take place at the start of close combat before attacks are made.

Just a thought though... Your friend is really worried about 3 to 6 Impact Hits taking away a rank of SKAVEN before combat? This is 8th edition man! He should have enough Skaven in each unit to soak up 5 times that amount of damage before ever having to worry about losing anyone in the first 4 ranks and losing even a single point of Leadership.

Wow... I never see units of rank and file Skaven under 40 models anymore, so that's really odd to me. Most of them I see are around the 60 range.

Surgency
24-10-2010, 03:58
Maybe I have to go look at my book again, or maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but I thought fear checks were made when charges were declared, and impact hits were made at the start of the CC phase... Now, to go find my book and double check

mishari26
24-10-2010, 04:21
doing a fear test at the declare charges phase was the 7th. ed. way. because it had the possibilities of fleeing and all that fun stuff.

in 8th ed however, it only relates to reducing WS to 1. and is worded as happening at the start of CC.

So I agree with Chris that Impact happens before everything, and if you get an argument, use the sequencing rule. which in this case, you charging with the chariot will prefer the impacts to happen 1st, so they shall. ;)

theunwantedbeing
24-10-2010, 04:59
Fear First, impact hit's second.
Seeing as fear happens before blows are struck, no loophole to deal with skaven more eaisly, either that way.

AMWOOD co
24-10-2010, 05:01
Just a thought though... Your friend is really worried about 3 to 6 Impact Hits taking away a rank of SKAVEN before combat? This is 8th edition man! He should have enough Skaven in each unit to soak up 5 times that amount of damage before ever having to worry about losing anyone in the first 4 ranks and losing even a single point of Leadership.

Wow... I never see units of rank and file Skaven under 40 models anymore, so that's really odd to me. Most of them I see are around the 60 range.

Hey, a couple of good Scraplauncher shots and a few shots of that Gut Magic magic missile(Toothcracker is it?) can widdle a unit down to size.

mishari26
24-10-2010, 06:01
Fear First, impact hit's second.
Seeing as fear happens before blows are struck, no loophole to deal with skaven more eaisly, either that way.

Impact Hits aren't "blows being struck" either. they're simply the momentum of the chariot's bulk. hence no need to consider the chariot's WS and being auto-hits.

but both arguments are fluffy ones. and as far as RAW says, they both happen at the same time. so Sequencing is your buddy here.

stripsteak
24-10-2010, 07:02
I would side with impact happening first.
they happen 'at the very beginning of the close combat' as well as being before challenges
Challenges are issued 'at the start of the combat round' fear is also 'At the start of each close combat round'
so challenges and fear happen at the same time and so are determined by whose turn it is. But impact hits have to happen before challenges, which means they have to also be before fear since fear is at the same time as challenges.

Chris_
24-10-2010, 07:10
Fear First, impact hit's second.
Seeing as fear happens before blows are struck, no loophole to deal with skaven more eaisly, either that way.Challenges has the same wording as Fear and there it specifically says after Impact Hits. So Impact Hits are before both Fear and Challenges, if any argument arises just let the player whose turn it is decide.

Yellow Commissar
24-10-2010, 16:10
Challenges has the same wording as Fear and there it specifically says after Impact Hits. So Impact Hits are before both Fear and Challenges, if any argument arises just let the player whose turn it is decide.
Challenges say "but after Impact Hits". This is definitely not the same wording as Fear.

"Impact Hits are close combat attacks". Fear forces a "Leadership test, before any blows are struck".

To me, Impact hits are blows. This is perhaps the grey area, though, as "blows" are not defined by the rules.

"Blows" may be an apt term for the state of clear rules in the game, though. In that regard, the game "blows". :D

WizzyWarlock
24-10-2010, 18:49
I'm confused about this. Why does it matter which goes first? Fear only lowers WS to 1 on a failed test, and Impact hits automatically hit, so it doesn't matter which order it goes in.

Steam_Giant
24-10-2010, 19:04
I'm confused about this. Why does it matter which goes first? Fear only lowers WS to 1 on a failed test, and Impact hits automatically hit, so it doesn't matter which order it goes in.

I imagine its the combat after the impact hits, that the fear tests result will affect.

Ogres charge do impact hits - skaven lose a rank - Skaven fail fear test - Skaven is chopped up

Ogres charge - skaven pass fear test - Ogres do impact hits - Skaven lose rank and are chopped up less

WizzyWarlock
24-10-2010, 21:41
I imagine its the combat after the impact hits, that the fear tests result will affect.

Ogres charge do impact hits - skaven lose a rank - Skaven fail fear test - Skaven is chopped up

Ogres charge - skaven pass fear test - Ogres do impact hits - Skaven lose rank and are chopped up less

Still doesn't make any difference. The Skaven either pass or fail, the result is still the same. The impact hits will hit and do the same damage regardless of fear test results. Both things happen before the main combat starts.

Yellow Commissar
24-10-2010, 21:55
Still doesn't make any difference. The Skaven either pass or fail, the result is still the same. The impact hits will hit and do the same damage regardless of fear test results. Both things happen before the main combat starts.

Read the OP's post again.

Chris_
24-10-2010, 22:52
Challenges say "but after Impact Hits". This is definitely not the same wording as Fear.

"Impact Hits are close combat attacks". Fear forces a "Leadership test, before any blows are struck".

To me, Impact hits are blows. This is perhaps the grey area, though, as "blows" are not defined by the rules.

"Blows" may be an apt term for the state of clear rules in the game, though. In that regard, the game "blows". :DNo, they don't use identical wording, but it is basically the same:


Challenges are issued at the start of the combat round, before blows are struck (but after Impact Hits).

This was the challenge rules, notice the bolded words. The difference you claim is in a paranthesis which is just explaining the implications or just a reminder of what happens. This sentence basically says that Impact Hits are before "blows are struck". And we all know what the Fear says.

Now as I said in my first post, this is a little bit fuzzy and I could understand people trying to argue this as the Impact Hits happen first, but not the Fear. However I would go with Sequencing (pg. 10).

WizzyWarlock
24-10-2010, 23:48
Read the OP's post again.
Ah, okay, didn't notice that. Well, seems we're all reading it as 7th Edition ruling. In 8th you only take a Fear test at the start of a close combat round if you're already in base contact with an enemy that causes Fear.

So in the case of the Chariot with Fear charging Skaven:

1) Chariot Charges - Impact Damage, both sides Attack, End Turn
2) Skaven Make Fear Test, both sides Attack, End Turn

In the case of Terror, you make a panic test as soon as the charge is declared, before impact hits or anything else happens. See Terror Causer, fail test, run for the hills!

I guess in the case of Fear they assumed the unit was bolstered with adrenaline or something, but as that wears off they succumb to the fear. All I can figure. Seems strange you don't get a test on the first turn, but hey, that's 8th Edition for you. Full of weird or just plain stupid rules.

Chris_
25-10-2010, 00:00
Ah, okay, didn't notice that. Well, seems we're all reading it as 7th Edition ruling. In 8th you only take a Fear test at the start of a close combat round if you're already in base contact with an enemy that causes Fear.

So in the case of the Chariot with Fear charging Skaven:

1) Chariot Charges - Impact Damage, both sides Attack, End Turn
2) Skaven Make Fear Test, both sides Attack, End Turn

In the case of Terror, you make a panic test as soon as the charge is declared, before impact hits or anything else happens. See Terror Causer, fail test, run for the hills!

I guess in the case of Fear they assumed the unit was bolstered with adrenaline or something, but as that wears off they succumb to the fear. All I can figure. Seems strange you don't get a test on the first turn, but hey, that's 8th Edition for you. Full of weird or just plain stupid rules.No, you take Fear test at the start of any combat round where you start in b2b with a unit causing fear. Charges are made in the Movement Phase, they would still need to take a fear test first combat round.

AMWOOD co
25-10-2010, 00:05
I guess in the case of Fear they assumed the unit was bolstered with adrenaline or something, but as that wears off they succumb to the fear. All I can figure. Seems strange you don't get a test on the first turn, but hey, that's 8th Edition for you. Full of weird or just plain stupid rules.

Woah, woah, woah! Are you saying that on the turn I charge, I do not make a Fear Test? You might want to check what a Round of Close Combat is once again.

Fear is tested at each Round of Close Combat, ie. each individual fight resolved in the Close Combat Phase, not each player turn where you were already in base to base contact with the enemy. Fear has (arguably) been weakened, but not that much.

Lord_Elric
25-10-2010, 00:12
I guess in the case of Fear they assumed the unit was bolstered with adrenaline or something, but as that wears off they succumb to the fear. All I can figure. Seems strange you don't get a test on the first turn, but hey, that's 8th Edition for you. Full of weird or just plain stupid rules.

The test is taken at the start of any close combat round i.e the close combat phase, The chargers are moved into contact with the enemy in the movement phase!!!!!

WizzyWarlock
25-10-2010, 00:15
No, you take Fear test at the start of any combat round where you start in b2b with a unit causing fear. Charges are made in the Movement Phase, they would still need to take a fear test first combat round.
Duh, of course charges are in the movement phase. Someone slap me upside the head, please. Okay, now I see what this whole thread is about. It took me a while, but I'm getting there. Old age creeping in there, I think. :)

Okay, so Fear goes first then Impact Hits. Quoting the rules:
Fear - At the start of each Close Combat round.
Impact - At the very beginning of the Close Combat.

Fear takes precedence as it's at the start of the round, whereas Impact is done at the start of the actual combat, before attacks are rolled and challenges are issued.

stripsteak
25-10-2010, 06:52
Duh, of course charges are in the movement phase. Someone slap me upside the head, please. Okay, now I see what this whole thread is about. It took me a while, but I'm getting there. Old age creeping in there, I think. :)

Okay, so Fear goes first then Impact Hits. Quoting the rules:
Fear - At the start of each Close Combat round.
Impact - At the very beginning of the Close Combat.

Fear takes precedence as it's at the start of the round, whereas Impact is done at the start of the actual combat, before attacks are rolled and challenges are issued.
the problem with that reasoning is:
A) the start of the round is the start of the combat. the start of the phase is before the start of the first round of combat. 'nominates a close combat ... and fights a round of close combat.'
B) challenges also specify they occur at the start of each close combat round (the same time as fear) and impact hits specify they occur before challenges.

WizzyWarlock
25-10-2010, 08:29
The start of the Close Combat Round is before you've actually decided which unit to fight with first. The very beginning of the Close Combat before blows are struck means you've picked a unit and are about to roll that units actions.

The comment about Impact Hits before Challenges seems to be an exception to the 'start of the combat round'. This is how I visualise it with two units fighting two units. Let's say combat A has Fear and Impact Hits, combat B is normal.

Start of Round
Combat A takes a Fear Test, Combat B issues Challenge
Combat A takes Impact Hits then issues Challenge
Combat A & B proceed as normal

So both Fear and Challenges happen at the very start of the combat round, however due to the appearance of Impact Hits the Impact Hits must be done before the Challenge is issued in that combat.

What I mean in more clarity: Fear tests are made on each and every unit before you start rolling for attacks. Challenges are issued on each and every unit before you start rolling for attacks. Impact Hits jump in the middle of this so when you 'zoom in' on that one unit to start rolling for attacks, you do the Impact Hits THEN issue the Challenge. It's out of place of the normal routine, but things that happen before any type of combat (i.e. Fear/Challenges) still go first.

Glasscannon
25-10-2010, 09:52
Its difficult to muddle through the similar wordings, in my group we consider Fear - impact hits - declare challenges - fighting.
None of us are 100% sure how it goes by the rules but we take it that fear is a psychological effect that can and does effect a unit before anyone touches their opposition, you can be scared of something as its coming at you, you cant attack something before its in swing range however even if you are a chariot moving at speed, you still need to contact the target.
While not a RAW conclusion its a logical one that has worked well for us.

theunwantedbeing
25-10-2010, 10:09
Fear - start of each Close Combat Round...before blows are struck.
Impact hits - very beginning of the combat, before any other attacks are made
Challenge - issued at the start of the combat round before blows are stuck but after impact hits

So it goes in that order.
Anything else seems like an easter egg.

Steam_Giant
25-10-2010, 11:57
So it goes in that order.
Anything else seems like an easter egg.

I would argue its not an "easter egg" but a legitimate tactic.

IMO Impact hits are the result of a charge which happens in the movement phase, long before the combat where an opponant would test their nerve.

Until there is an FAQ update to dictate the actual order of these, Il follow the sequencing rules.

WizzyWarlock
25-10-2010, 13:35
IMO Impact hits are the result of a charge which happens in the movement phase, long before the combat where an opponant would test their nerve.

But so is one unit attacking another, the attacks are the result of a charge. Both things still only happen when you're in base to base contact, an Impact hit doesn't happen before the units meet, it's just the first thing that happens when they actually do.

Steam_Giant
25-10-2010, 14:20
But so is one unit attacking another, the attacks are the result of a charge. Both things still only happen when you're in base to base contact, an Impact hit doesn't happen before the units meet, it's just the first thing that happens when they actually do.

I believe we are in agreement ;)

H33D
26-10-2010, 04:16
Seems logical to me.

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 09:10
I believe we are in agreement ;)
Wow, so many lawyers around here, have to make sure every word is correct. Reminds me of a guy I game with, plays with a rule book in his hand.

So to word it correctly, "Both things still only happen when you're in base to base contact, an Impact hit doesn't happen before the units meet, it's just the first part of combat for that unit when they actually do."

Before that is Fear, after is Challenge, after Challenge are normal attacks.

Is that any clearer?

theorox
26-10-2010, 09:18
The player whose turn it is decides?

Theo

Steam_Giant
26-10-2010, 10:32
Before that is Fear, after is Challenge, after Challenge are normal attacks.

Is that any clearer?

I understand your position but I disagree.

I cannot find support for either interpretation in the rules so im going with the "sequencing rule"

AKA The player whose turn it is decides.

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 12:29
So let me just note down here the wording:

Challenges: Issued at the start of the combat round, before any blows are struck (but after Impact Hits).
Fear: At the start of each Close Combat round, before any blows are struck.
Impact Hits: At the very beginning of the close combat, before challenges are issued and attacks of any other kind are made.

So what we have here is a chain of events. Normally Fear and Challenges are issued first at the beginning of the actual round. The start of the round is when you decide which of your engaged units to roll for first.

Impact Hits however occur at the very beginning of the close combat, as in you've chosen that unit to roll for and begin the combat. However, it states that this should occur before the Challenge. This is where you step out of line, for this unit only you declare the Challenge afer you've decided to select this unit for close combat and rolled Impact Hits.

Regardless of your opinion on Impact Hits & Challenges, Fear always goes first as it states that the test is made before blows are struck. An Impact Hit counts as a blow being struck, thus comes after Fear tests.

Korraz
26-10-2010, 12:36
The player whose turn it is decides?

Theo

Too simple. We're on Warseer here, after all.

Steam_Giant
26-10-2010, 13:14
Impact hits: at the very beginning of the close combat
Fear: At the start of each combat

Unforeseen situations are inevitable, but to be fair, the words chosen here are imperfect, the true meaning is ambiguous and does not communicate intent.

I would understand if your feeling a little defensive about being wrong and subsequently corrected about the fear rules in this thread. But we are not arguing on different sides here, and I am far from a rules lawyer. As has been pointed out the rules don't clearly dictate how to handle the situation, so the suggestion is to follow the sequencing rules (a very simple & clear ruling in GW style). This game is for kids and the rules should be simple.

If you wish to continue this conversation please realise:

*My opinion (and others in this thread) is the rules are unclear, so I refer to an Existing rule (Sequencing)

*Your opinion is an interpretation of the rules, and cannot be backed up beyond an argument in semantics.

Im off to play with my man-dolls ! :)

Enjoy your day

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 13:21
Okay, so lets say Fear is at the start of each combat, as is Impact Hits, by the way the rules are written Fear would still go first as it has to happen 'Before Any Blows Are Struck'. Impact Hits are blows being struck.

a18no
26-10-2010, 13:59
Impact should have been part of the movement phase. But if it was, the dead would have not count for the combat resolution. So they put it in the combat phase to allow that. But at the beginning before anything else.

Fear test is a psychologie factory, it could have been a factor who happen before the ennemy touch you, but that would count as a Terror test. SO they made it in the combat phase before everything else.

We got two things that happen at the very beginning of a phase. By the rule, you play it like the turn's player want to. Don't try to do more than that. To skaven players: go read my signature.

If you don't agree on that, their's another rule that you MUST follow, decide on 4+ and stop trying to make silly ruling.

Good games and have fun!

Steam_Giant
26-10-2010, 14:04
Okay, so lets say Fear is at the start of each combat, as is Impact Hits, by the way the rules are written Fear would still go first as it has to happen 'Before Any Blows Are Struck'. Impact Hits are blows being struck.

Blow - a powerful or heavy stroke with the fist, a weapon, etc. (http://www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx?context=3&reversed=False&action=define&homonym=2&text=blow)

Impact - the act of one object striking another, collision, (http://www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx)

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 15:26
Blow - a powerful or heavy stroke with the fist, a weapon, etc. (http://www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx?context=3&reversed=False&action=define&homonym=2&text=blow)

Impact - the act of one object striking another, collision, (http://www.collinslanguage.com/results.aspx)
Impact Hits: Impact Hits are resolved at the very beginning of the close combat, before challenges are issued and attacks of any other kind are made.

So through the wording of that sentence, Impact Hits are attacks, so blows are being struck. Thus Fear comes before them.

Steam_Giant
26-10-2010, 18:30
Yes but impact hits happen at the "very beginning" of the CC and therefore nothing can be done before it :p

H33D
26-10-2010, 19:01
Impact Hits: Impact Hits are resolved at the very beginning of the close combat, before challenges are issued and attacks of any other kind are made.

So through the wording of that sentence, Impact Hits are attacks, so blows are being struck. Thus Fear comes before them.

This.

Fear -> Impact -> Combat -> Resolution

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2010, 19:04
This.

Fear -> Impact -> Combat -> Resolution

Is what I have said from the start.
Seems I was the first person to sugguest this as the only answer as well.

Palatine Katinka
26-10-2010, 19:23
So what we have here is a chain of events. Normally Fear and Challenges are issued first at the beginning of the actual round. The start of the round is when you decide which of your engaged units to roll for first.

I get the impression you are confusing "round" and "phase". The start of the phase is when you choose which fight to work out first. Then that round starts and you resolve Plague Censer gas/impact hits/take fear tests/issue challenges/martyr flagellents etc. for that specific fight. As it all happens at the start of the round I'd say the player whose turn it is chooses except when specified (eg. Censers before impact before challenges but you can choose for fear).

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 20:10
Yes but impact hits happen at the "very beginning" of the CC and therefore nothing can be done before it :p
And Fear happens at the 'very beginning', but before blows are struck. If Impact = Blows (which they do!) then you do Fear before them.

Steam_Giant
27-10-2010, 10:30
Wizzy: Your recycling posts of your Interpretation of the rules, and you dont seem to accept there is any ambiguity in the way the rules are written. I dont think we have anything else to discuss, do we ?

Cheers Palatine Katinka for bringing up "plague censor gas attacks". There does seem to be a logical chain of events as you explain it. Id be interested to read the wording in the skaven army book before commenting further.

EDIT: I will also check the wording on fanatics, as that is loosly on topic.

Cheers

WizzyWarlock
27-10-2010, 12:07
Wizzy: Your recycling posts of your Interpretation of the rules, and you dont seem to accept there is any ambiguity in the way the rules are written. I dont think we have anything else to discuss, do we ?
Okey Dokey.

Palatine Katinka
27-10-2010, 15:39
I forgot to mention the revealing of Assassins. (As a Dark Elf player I often forget about Assassins, sometimes for entire games...) I think Plague Censers are specifically before revealing Assassins. Do Assassins need to be revealed before or after declaring challenges and/or taking fear tests?

rodfarruguia
27-10-2010, 16:59
Hey, a couple of good Scraplauncher shots and a few shots of that Gut Magic magic missile(Toothcracker is it?) can widdle a unit down to size.

not to mention the stone that gives -3 to test against the butcher or unit he is with when playing against chaos or rats. you can stack it with a -1 stone also found in the book . skullmantel and stone of brahmir, used in conjunction with braingobbler can break several unengaged rat units off the table before they hit your line or keep warmachines from firing in a phase.