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Pontus
11-03-2006, 14:22
A unit of knights declare charge on a unit of archers, the archers elect to stand and fire, and kills one knight. This all happens in the declare charges phase.

In the move chargers phase measuring reveals the knights to be out of range, a failed charge.

Is this correctly played?

branchwrath
11-03-2006, 16:31
IIRC yep, seems like the correct call to me.

Bortus
11-03-2006, 16:51
Yup correctly played. As a matter of fact the BRB states: "If a charged unit stands and shoots, it is possible that it may cause sufficient casualties on the charging unit to force an immediate Panic test. This might result in a charge being brought to a halt before contact is made with the enemy. That is why it is important to work out fire from enemies who stand and shoot before moving chargers." p.53

mageith
11-03-2006, 16:57
A unit of knights declare charge on a unit of archers, the archers elect to stand and fire, and kills one knight. This all happens in the declare charges phase.

Actually Stand and Shoot occurs just before moving chargers.
Page 45 "Work this out immediately before moving chargers".



In the move chargers phase measuring reveals the knights to be out of range, a failed charge.

Is this correctly played?
Yes, the Stand and Shoot goes off even if chargers are out of charge range of the charge target.

Mage Ith

MarcoPollo
11-03-2006, 18:14
Yes this is how I play it too. I had a huge unit of Temple guard with a Slann charging a dwarf gun line and failed by half an inch. The pounded my unit once, and killed about 4 and then in their own shooting phase killed about 5 more. I had two left and a Slann and I had to charge the line and I was just a little over half my charge distance and I had to take a third volley from that gun line which killed off the rest of my templeguard and even wounded my slann. Nasty when you fail a charge against a gun line from poor distance guessing.

Festus
11-03-2006, 19:35
Hi

The funny thing is: You can declare a charge with Knights from 12" away, the oponent declares a S&S with pistols. He fires his pistols while you are still 12" away and you lose some knights and panic, never even approaching within pistol range.
:D

Greetings
Festus

Crazy Harborc
11-03-2006, 19:48
Ooohhhh yeah!! Part of the wonderful :wtf: areas of the rules of the system. I don't have a better idea of how to handle the proceedure. Over all, the current proceedure "seems" to work normally.;)

Pontus
11-03-2006, 20:21
Thanks alot for the replies! Been gluing my new dwarf army now for almost 12 hours non stop. Gonna be alot of thunderers! Wish me luck for my games tomorrow.

The Winslow
12-03-2006, 02:39
Festus: I am pretty sure that the example with pistols would be resolved differently. The rulebook states (if memory serves) that they fire as soon as they are in range. So, you would move the nights, and the shooting would happen as soon as they came within range.

mageith
12-03-2006, 04:41
Festus: I am pretty sure that the example with pistols would be resolved differently. The rulebook states (if memory serves)
That's the problem with memory. It doesn't always serve.


that they fire as soon as they are in range. So, you would move the nights, and the shooting would happen as soon as they came within range.


"That is why it is important to work out fire from enemies who stand & shoot before moving chargers. If the chargers are out of missile range at the beginning of their charge then work out missile fire at the maximum range of the weapon." (53)

Mage Ith

WLBjork
12-03-2006, 07:36
Edit.

What does that second sentance say?

Work out at maximum range of the weapon. Does that mean it simply counts as being maximum range of the weapon; or is it that the Unit is considered to move to the maximum range of the weapon and flees from that point (should a panic test be failed)?

Festus
12-03-2006, 08:40
Hi

It is pretty clear: The S&S reaction happens when the chargers haven't moved yet.

If the chargers are more than the weapons max. range away, the charged can still S&S, counting the chargers as being at max. range instead. This allows them to shoot even with weapons of less range than the distance between charger and charged.

Greetings
Festus

T10
12-03-2006, 22:01
Edit.

What does that second sentance say?

Work out at maximum range of the weapon. Does that mean it simply counts as being maximum range of the weapon; or is it that the Unit is considered to move to the maximum range of the weapon and flees from that point (should a panic test be failed)?

It means what it says.

Remember: When making a Stand & Shoot the normal shooting rules still apply. Range, cover, multiple shots. The -1 for being charged doesn't replace all that.

So a unit of skirmishers charging from behind hard cover at 9" against a unit of skinks with blow-pipes benefit from quite heavy modifiers:

-1 Charged
-1 Targets are Skirmishers
-2 Hard cover
-1 Long range
-1 Multiple shots (optional)

-6 total.

With javelins (range 8") the shots are still worked out immediately, but even if the enemy is 9" away, the shots are still made.

-1 Charged
-1 Targets are Skirmishers
-2 Hard cover
+0 Long range

-4 total.


-T10

Dillinger
12-03-2006, 22:12
Hi

It is pretty clear: The S&S reaction happens when the chargers haven't moved yet.

If the chargers are more than the weapons max. range away, the charged can still S&S, counting the chargers as being at max. range instead. This allows them to shoot even with weapons of less range than the distance between charger and charged.

Greetings
Festus

As per page 61 of the rulebook:

If the chargers start their charge beyond the maximum range of the shooting unit's missile weapons, the shots are made at the maximum range of the weapons. The archers let loose as soon as the enemies are within range.

Festus
12-03-2006, 22:14
Hi

As per page 61 of the rulebook:

If the chargers start their charge beyond the maximum range of the shooting unit's missile weapons, the shots are made at the maximum range of the weapons. The archers let loose as soon as the enemies are within range.

Yes, a nice and fluffy description, isn't it? ;)

Greetings
Festus

mageith
13-03-2006, 00:39
Yes, a nice and fluffy description, isn't it? ;)

I think it's a confusing fluffy description but still fluffy.

But where do you have those charging units panic from on those rare occasions when they do panic? At the point of maximum range of the weapons or from the charger's initial charge declaration position?

Ith

Crazy Harborc
13-03-2006, 01:55
We have always had them flee from/at their declaration/starting point on the rare occassion(s) they do panic from shooting as they charge.

After reading this thread and giving the topic thought.......IMHO, the troops should move foreward to the max shooting range point then stop. If a panic test happens and is failed the chargers should be fleeing from the location they were at when the shooting and panic test occured.

Festus
13-03-2006, 05:43
Hi

After reading this thread and giving the topic thought.......IMHO, the troops should move foreward to the max shooting range point then stop.

I find that this will break the flow of the game unneccessarily, and can end in making the movement of chargers even more prone to mistakes than it is right now...

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
13-03-2006, 06:16
I find that this will break the flow of the game unneccessarily, and can end in making the movement of chargers even more prone to mistakes than it is right now...Huh?!? Do tell us all about your findings and exactly how doing as the rules suggest can end in making mistakes. :rolleyes:

To me it seems pretty clear, if passingly stated, that a flee action from 25% casualties would be moved back from within range of the shooters. Otherwise it would let the the charging unit flee from beyond range to beyond range without ever having come into range. Talk about breaking the flow of gameplay or whatever. Pfffh!

Festus
13-03-2006, 06:34
What are you aiming at? Troll baiting? :wtf:

The rules tell us - in plain English, so you might understand - to *work out fire from enemies who stand & shoot before moving chargers.*

There is no getting around of it.

If they are not in range of the weapon, you have to *work out* the shots at max range.

Whatever might seem pretty clear to you might not always be as clear to others and vice versa... :eyebrows:

Festus

SuperBeast
13-03-2006, 08:29
For me, it's the usage of the term "max range".
Using the example of Thrown weapons being used on chargers >8" away (which is probably the most likely scenario), it's confusing.
If they'd said Long range, then we know where we are with hit modifiers.
The only time max range is mentioned in the BRB (other than here) is in the shooting section when it states you can't hit anything beyond this.

So the precedent is being set that you can exceed your weapon's maximum range if you're being charged.
Most extreme (but likely) example I can think of here is a unit of 5 Harpies charging a unit of 15 Skinks with javelins.
The Harpies are 20" away, and the Skinks declare a stand and shoot.
Combining poisoned attacks and the Harpies' low Ld, forcing a panic test is quite likely.
This gives us two scenarios: The Harpies flee from their starting position, or they flee from the point at which they reach the maximum range of the weapon.
Festus' interpretation - which is absolutely correct by literal wording of the relevant sections ("work out missile fire at", and react-before-move) - is that they flee from their original starting point, meaning they can end up anything from 23 to 38 inches away from the Skinks because of a range 8 weapon.
Major Defense's interpretation - that the Harpies flee from the maximum charge range of this weapon - is also backed by the rules for shooting (you cannot shoot something outside the maximum weapon range).

Festus' interpretation appears to be built mainly on the grounds that charge reactions always happen before you move chargers.
Major Defense's interpretation is built on the grounds that a weapon cannot shoot an enemy further than it's maximum range away.

As the Fear causing charges Q&A has already shown, there is precedent for "tinkering" with the [declare with / react to / move chargers] sequence when other rules conflict/require.
To my knowledge, there is no such precedent for shooting ranges.

So I'd propose that the S&S is worked out before the chargers move, but if a panic test is caused & failed then they will flee as if they were at the maximum range of the weapon.
This simply requires a "relative" move, in the same way charges and pursuers are done, rather than actually moving them forwards then back.

Simply because this scenario requires bending of a sequence that has already been shown to be bendy, rather than actually breaking a rule.

>ducks<

Major Defense
13-03-2006, 11:11
Exactamundo, SuperBeast! That's exactly what the rules mean when you ignore none of them and try to see the way that they don't contradict so much as they expound. Of course they don't want you to move the models partially forward so they tell us to "work out" the S&S at max range.


What are you aiming at? Troll baiting? :wtf: Disagreeing with your incorrect corrections on two different threads now constitutes as "troll baiting"? Well if you're a troll then you'd be the one to tell if I am baiting you.

I am a master baiter. :cheese:

Pontus
13-03-2006, 12:42
Whoa what a long thread! My stand and shoot this weekend worked fine :) I just love dwarven handgunners and organ gun. They accounted for alot of kills, especially vs the undead i faced. Blew up 6 black knights and 8 graveguards in one round of shooting (20 thunderers, 1 organ gun).