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SteelTitan
24-10-2010, 10:40
I played my first Fantasy battle last week and came across a frenzy situation.

The rulebook says that a frenzied unit has to declare a charge if they fail a leadership test.

But how do you determine when to take this test?

In previous edition it was when the enemy unit was within LoS and range but now with random charge distances...

When do you have to take this test? Within the maximum of 2D6+M? In this case 6+6+5 (elves) 17"?

I'm confused :)

Eta
24-10-2010, 11:17
Indeed, you have to take the test when you could potentially make a legal charge (not more than one wheel of up to 90° to reach the enemy during the movement of the chargers). Source is p.70 of the rulebook under "Berserk Rage": "If [...] a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a Leadership test is passed."

Greetings
Eta

T10
24-10-2010, 12:22
When do you have to take this test? Within the maximum of 2D6+M? In this case 6+6+5 (elves) 17"?

Yes. Frenzied units will be compelled to charge if there is an enemy they can reach. This is determined in the same way as for deciding whether or not a unit is allowed to declare a charge. This means the maximum potential charge range needs to be taken into account. This will usually be 12" (12 on the 2d6) plus the unit's Movement.

Notice that it is up to you to decide in what order you declare your charges, so you have some flexibility as to when you need to decide to charge or restrain.

The way we play it, during the Declare Charges part of the Movement Phase you will need to measure and see if the Frenzied unit is in charge range. If it is, then you have three options:

Declare the charge.
Test to restrain the unit.
Put the unit "on hold" and deal with any other charging units.

If you keep waiting you'll eventually run out of units that are non-Frenzied and within charge range, so you'll need to decide sooner or later.

However, notice that since charge reactions are carried out before any chargers are moved, enemies may flee out of (or into!) range. This means that you may need to repeatedly re-evaluate who can or cannot charge.

-T10

SteelTitan
24-10-2010, 13:24

Thanks a whole bunch!

Dmk7001
24-10-2010, 22:59
So you could theoretically block your frenzied unit from charging with another unit charging to negate the need to test? Don't know how useful it would be as you generally want your frenzied unit it combat but still.

AMWOOD co
24-10-2010, 23:38
So you could theoretically block your frenzied unit from charging with another unit charging to negate the need to test? Don't know how useful it would be as you generally want your frenzied unit it combat but still.

Umm, no, not exactly. After each charge is declared, each reaction is made. However, no chargers are moved until all charges and reactions have been completed. Therefore, unless the enemy flees from one of your units or one of your units panics in the way of your Frenzied units then your Frenzied units will still have to charge.

Lord_Elric
24-10-2010, 23:45
Umm, no, not exactly. After each charge is declared, each reaction is made. However, no chargers are moved until all charges and reactions have been completed. Therefore, unless the enemy flees from one of your units or one of your units panics in the way of your Frenzied units then your Frenzied units will still have to charge.

so just an odd question if you declare charges with 2 units aginst different enemys, both units choose to hold but the chargers paths cross say at 90 degrees for example. now if you were to move either unit into contact with its charged enemy it would block the other unit from being able to make contact whats happens then?? if your allowed to choose what units to move first can you force a failed charge??

T10
24-10-2010, 23:51
So you could theoretically block your frenzied unit from charging with another unit charging to negate the need to test? Don't know how useful it would be as you generally want your frenzied unit it combat but still.

Not exactly. Remember that moving chargers comes after declaring charges - the implication should be obvious.

However, it is more likely that the opposite situation will occur: That a friendly unit that starts out in front of a Frenzied unit declares a charge, thus creating an opportunity for the Frenzied unit to charge as well.

For example: A unit of Chaos Warhounds is standing directly in front of a unit of Chaos Warriors of Khorne (frenzied), both facing towards (and have line of sight to) a unit of Empire Swordsmen in front of them. Let's say you have the Warhounds charge a unit off to the side (say a unit of Empire Halberdiers, the detachment unit to the Swordsmen) then the Warriors will have an open path to the Swordsmen IF you move the Warhounds first.

Should this rather big "if" compel the unit of Warriors to charge the Swordsmen, or is declaring a charge wholly voluntary? You tell me.

-T10

T10
24-10-2010, 23:55
if your allowed to choose what units to move first can you force a failed charge??

You can chose the order in which you move the charging units, and you may end up failing one or more charges due to the order you've chosen.

-T10

AMWOOD co
24-10-2010, 23:56
so just an odd question if you declare charges with 2 units aginst different enemys, both units choose to hold but the chargers paths cross say at 90 degrees for example. now if you were to move either unit into contact with its charged enemy it would block the other unit from being able to make contact whats happens then?? if your allowed to choose what units to move first can you force a failed charge??

Yes, as far as I understand the question, one unit will make a successful charge and the other unit, now blocked, fails its charge. As the charging player, you decide the order charges are made and so may choose them appropriately. The unit that is now blocked will suffer all the side effects of a conjested battlefield where you didn't leave enough room for your units to act in concert.

My answering of Dmk7001's question was under the idea of two units charging a single target.

Toonces
27-10-2010, 21:11
Here's an odd question, can you test to see if you must charge, make that test, and still charge nonetheless?

It's probably an odd thing to ask but to me, it's easier to parse what I want to do if I first know what units have to charge and then go back and figure it out... but it's possible I'm doing it entirely wrong (I'm often wrong but rarely uncertain).

BattleofLund
28-10-2010, 00:25
Here's an odd question, can you test to see if you must charge, make that test, and still charge nonetheless?

It's probably an odd thing to ask but to me, it's easier to parse what I want to do if I first know what units have to charge and then go back and figure it out... but it's possible I'm doing it entirely wrong (I'm often wrong but rarely uncertain).

I say yes. The consequence of failing to control Frenzy is that you must charge the closest viable enemy unit; the consequence of succeeding is that you can choose your target.

However, would you have to immediately complete that unit's 'Declare charge sub-phase'? I don't know.

T10
28-10-2010, 08:33
It's probably an odd thing to ask but to me, it's easier to parse what I want to do if I first know what units have to charge and then go back and figure it out... but it's possible I'm doing it entirely wrong (I'm often wrong but rarely uncertain).

The rules don't deal with this specifically, so you can't really be said to be "wrong".

However, a recurring theme seems to be that you complete each unit's "action" before moving to the next. E.g. you don't resolve the impact hits in one combat, then skip over to another combat entirely to work out a challenge. I'm sure there are better examples.

-T10

SteelTitan
28-10-2010, 09:49
A question regarding this issue: if you have frenzied troops, do you HAVE to declare charges with them first or can you first declare with other troops?

T10
28-10-2010, 10:31
A question regarding this issue: if you have frenzied troops, do you HAVE to declare charges with them first or can you first declare with other troops?

The rules don't say when you need to test. Presumably this follows normal charge declaration, thus allowing you to dictate the order. Nothing else is specified for frenzied troops.

The way we play it, during the Declare Charges part of the Movement Phase you will need to measure and see if the Frenzied unit is in charge range. If it is, then you have three options:

Declare the charge.
Test to restrain the unit.
Put the unit "on hold" and deal with any other charging units.

If you keep waiting you'll eventually run out of units that are non-Frenzied and within charge range, so you'll need to decide sooner or later.

However, notice that since charge reactions are carried out before any chargers are moved, enemies may flee out of (or into!) range. This means that you may need to repeatedly re-evaluate who can or cannot charge.

-T10