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SteelTitan
24-10-2010, 10:50
So, it says that skirmishers have to wheel like normal troops but also have as many free reforms as they want.

So I assume that this wheel is only applied during the charge?

And if they get as many free reforms as they want, this means you can deploy your units of skirmishers in a single rank and walk like this?

M M M M M

reform if you want to go north or south

M
M
M
M
M

etc. ?

Kevlar
24-10-2010, 11:06
Just because you get free reforms doesn't mean you get free movement, when you reform you count as having moved as far as the farthest model reformed, so what exactly are you gaining?

T10
24-10-2010, 12:41
The way I see it Skirmishers still move as a normal unit. This means that it still needs to wheel in order to turn corners and such. However, it can reform as many times as it wants during the move.

The thing I see people tend to skip is performing the actual reforms and maintaining the 1" apart rule when moving. It's as if "any number of free reforms" reads the same as "teleportation". If you've ever had a unit of enemy skirmishers sneak between and behind your units then you know what I mean.

-T10

T10
24-10-2010, 12:50
when you reform you count as having moved as far as the farthest model reformed

This is not quite true. There is a restriction on the reform action that models cannot be moved further during the reform (emphasis mine) than twice its Movement, but there is nothing to say how this affects how far the unit itself may move.

By comparison the Swift Reform action allows the unit to make a normal move, after a reform, but this is in no way impeded by how far the individual models moved during the reform. It is safe to say that the reform itself does not cost the unit any of its move.

I take this to mean that, for skirmishers, how you move the models around in the unit doesn't really matter as long as each reform is legit. In fact, tracking the movement of individual models through multiple reforms and moves seems extremely difficult.

-T10

SteelTitan
24-10-2010, 13:32
Hmm, i feel that moving around skirmishers has become extremely difficult :rolleyes:

So when we have a 4x4 unit of skirmishers who are facing north, but who want to move Northwest (so 45 degrees left) can reform so that their front is facing that direction without any penalty, INSTEAD of reforming which would cost movement?

And T10, you say that the movement of individual models during that reform does not count as actual 'unit movement' and that this clause "cannot move further during the reform than etc etc" is just to indicate how far models are allowed to reform?


In that case, when you have 5 skirmishers, deployed in 1 rank who face north but want to move west can instead of wheeling just turn 90 degrees (as a reform), pay no penalty, and keep moving as a column?

T10
24-10-2010, 13:58
So when we have a 4x4 unit of skirmishers who are facing north, but who want to move Northwest (so 45 degrees left) can reform so that their front is facing that direction without any penalty, INSTEAD of reforming which would cost movement?


Wheeling to face NW would cost movement. Reforming in itself has no movement cost: Either you can do it for free (skirmishers, fast cavalry) or "swiftly" (followed by a normal move) or you do it instead of moving.



And T10, you say that the movement of individual models during that reform does not count as actual 'unit movement' and that this clause "cannot move further during the reform than etc etc" is just to indicate how far models are allowed to reform?


That is my opinion, yes.



In that case, when you have 5 skirmishers, deployed in 1 rank who face north but want to move west can instead of wheeling just turn 90 degrees (as a reform), pay no penalty, and keep moving as a column?

Yes, that would be a trivial matter.

-T10

solkan
24-10-2010, 20:43
SteelTitan, keep in mind that for reforming outside of combat, the CENTER of the unit has to remain in the same position as it was before the reform. That's the main problem with your original post--you're trying to move the center of the unit.

With a wheel, the center of the unit is moving forward. Again, when you reform, the center of the unit stays in place, and you don't gain any lasting distance.

Let's say that you have a unit 2 deep x 5 wide on a movement tray (because that's what I grabbed first), and you wheel that unit 90 degrees to the right. That's about 7 or 8 inches of movement. If you measure from the center of the starting position to the center of the ending position, it's 4.5 inches in a straight line.

So the skirmisher unit, to move into the same position, could reform to point in a diagonal direction, move forward 4.5 inches, and then reform, and arrive in the exact same position.

Lord_Elric
24-10-2010, 21:06
if you read the skirmishers rules properly this makes things quite clear

"A skirmishing unit may reform as many times as it wishes during its move, PROVIDED that no model ENDS UP moving a number of inches higher than double its move"

this clearly states that reforming isnt free movement as no model can move more than double its move value reforming or not.

SteelTitan
24-10-2010, 21:06
aha, good point on that centre of the unit!

But still, in your example

The 5x2 unit spends its either move on that wheel of 8 inches (for the ease of the example) and in doing so moved 4.5 inch from their original location.

The skirmisher unit however doesn't have to pay for their reform (if i understood it correctly) and can thus spend their entire movement allowance on moving 8" in the desired direction and then reform to face the same direction as the ranked unit. So basically: reform in direction, move 8", reform to face desired direction.

Which means that eventually they will be able to move farther than the ranked unit right?


Im starting to think im retarded for not understanding this...

Lord_Elric
24-10-2010, 21:09
if you read the skirmishers rules properly this makes things quite clear

"A skirmishing unit may reform as many times as it wishes during its move, PROVIDED that no model ENDS UP moving a number of inches higher than double its move"

this clearly states that reforming isnt free movement as no model can move more than double its move value reforming or not.

just as an example you can turn on the spot as many times as u like so long as the outside models do not move more than double their movement stat so they would spend less movement than wheeling still

solkan
24-10-2010, 22:25
aha, good point on that centre of the unit!

But still, in your example

The 5x2 unit spends its either move on that wheel of 8 inches (for the ease of the example) and in doing so moved 4.5 inch from their original location.

The skirmisher unit however doesn't have to pay for their reform (if i understood it correctly) and can thus spend their entire movement allowance on moving 8" in the desired direction and then reform to face the same direction as the ranked unit. So basically: reform in direction, move 8", reform to face desired direction.

Which means that eventually they will be able to move farther than the ranked unit right?

That's the point, hence the bits about "the incredible flexibility of its formation" . If you have a unit with the Free Reform rule, you can almost just pick it up, put down your tailor's tape measure, turn the unit around, and move it the distance you wanted to move along the path you want to move, without having to worry.

For instance, if you have a unit of Flamers (MA 6) and you want to shoot while moving away from the enemy. Step 0: Declare they're marching 12". Step 1: Announce a free reform and have each model turn 180 degrees around. Step 2: Move 12 inches. Step 3: Announce another free reform and turn each model 180 degrees back the other way.

And there are similar variants if you want to move 12 inches sideways or something--everyone in the unit turns left 90 degrees, marches forward 12 inches, and then turns right 90 degrees.

As far as I can tell, the rules say that the skirmishers can still wheel like normal troops is for those parts of the rules that say to wheel or pivot units and for consistency. Sometimes you just want wheel 45 degrees, you know? :)

SteelTitan
25-10-2010, 07:08
AHA, now i get it! That is awesome! Thanks a lot guys!

AMWOOD co
25-10-2010, 14:00
aha, good point on that centre of the unit!

But still, in your example

The 5x2 unit spends its either move on that wheel of 8 inches (for the ease of the example) and in doing so moved 4.5 inch from their original location.

The skirmisher unit however doesn't have to pay for their reform (if i understood it correctly) and can thus spend their entire movement allowance on moving 8" in the desired direction and then reform to face the same direction as the ranked unit. So basically: reform in direction, move 8", reform to face desired direction.

Which means that eventually they will be able to move farther than the ranked unit right?


Im starting to think im retarded for not understanding this...

Not quite. The skirmisher rules about a single model must be watched here. How far has the model on the outside corner of this skirmisher unit moved?

solkan
25-10-2010, 18:38
Not quite. The skirmisher rules about a single model must be watched here. How far has the model on the outside corner of this skirmisher unit moved?

In other original example: about one base width during the first reform, and then another two base widths during the second reform. So, in skirmisher formation, that'd be about an inch or two total from both reforms. Given that the unit in my example moved 4.5 inches, that's well within the double movement limit.

The double movement limit isn't that much of a limit in practice, since there are plenty of ways to conserve movement if you don't try to unnecessarily preserve the unit's shape while moving.

Lord_Elric
25-10-2010, 21:48
it does state NO model can move more than double its move so turning 90 degrees is freee but turning you would have to measure exactly the same as a wheel move but pivoting on the center of the unit, moving your full move then reforming into a line (from say a 3x3 formation) is a no no as the back model would move too far to reach the line...

tarrasque
25-10-2010, 22:35
Q: When moving Fast Cavalry or Skirmishers, should I measure
from the location of each model before it moves and place it anywhere
within its Movement Allowance (or double its Movement Allowance
if it is marching) ? (p68, 77)
A: Yes. Except when there is a unit or impassable terrain in the
way, the distance moved must include the distance required to
move around these obstacles.

solkan
25-10-2010, 23:40
Isn't it nice of them to errata the rules, and then add a FAQ statement saying "Oh, just ignore what we wrote there, and do this other thing instead." :rolleyes:

Because if you're measuring the individual model movements, then a skirmisher unit is still going to be able to avoid wheeling by moving the left side over and the right side up, and still save distance compared to wheeling.

A 5" x 2" unit needs 8" to do a 90 degree wheel. If you have 5 guys, A through E, and A moves to A', B moves to B', etc. on to E moves to E', that's about 5 inches (or less, for some of the models) of move to get into the same position if you don't mind shuffling models about:

=====A'
=====B'
=====C'
=====D'
=====E'
EDCBA

(A and E' are supposed to be touching. Crude ASCII diagram in a misguided attempt at being clearer about the maneuver.)

According to the FAQ, anyway. So it's still less movement than a wheel.

tarrasque
26-10-2010, 09:24
and way would that be against the rules?
reform in a 45 degree line while swapping e and a and d and b.
move centre of the unit from c to c' re form again.
i dont see the problem if you follow the brb you can get a few extra inches but you can get almost everywhere in your marching distance.
if you use the faq you cant get and extra few inches and get almost everywhere in your marching distance.

Haravikk
26-10-2010, 10:34
I believe the FAQ simply clarifies that the skirmisher rule means you can't displace any of the individual models more than double their movement allowance. i.e - model A with M4 can't be more than 8" (straight line distance) from where they began their movement phase.

Obviously you still have to fact in the unit's movement as normal, so if you move forward 4" then to the right 4" model A will be ~6" from where it started, so the unit could in theory change its formation despite having used all of its movement up so far, as there is a bit of give.

Really I've just assumed it's intended as license to be a bit more generous with skirmisher movement to represent that they can move that bit more easily, but while still largely treating them just like any other unit, which I find much better compared to the 7th edition nightmare.

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 12:41
Meh, the thing that annoys me about Skirmish is the fact I have to be facing the unit I want to charge now. I can reform as many times as I like in a turn, spin around on the spot doing some crazy breakdance, but if I want to charge the guy behind me we suddenly don't have the moment to spin and charge? So stupid..

Anyone have any realistic reason for why they changed it to that from the 7th Edition version?

RMacDeezy
26-10-2010, 17:59
Wizzy, they just went with the skirmisher rules that the magic 8-ball told them to...just like the magic resistance and disruption rules.

WizzyWarlock
26-10-2010, 20:22
Ah! 'course! The magic 8-Ball! It makes as much sense as the skirmish rules so I can go with that.. :)

Haravikk
26-10-2010, 20:44
Anyone have any realistic reason for why they changed it to that from the 7th Edition version?
Because the skirmisher rules were a bit overpowered, and an absolute pain to learn or remember? I like the new rules; they're far simpler, a lot more balanced, and actually require you to think about what you're doing with your skirmishers rather than using them to pull silly stunts just because you can rather than because you planned it.

I mean I may be slightly biased as a Dwarf player who obviously can't have skirmishers, a Skaven player who doesn't get very many unless I wanted to go Clan Eshin, and now Witch Elf player who doesn't get skirmishers either, but still, things got very silly under 7th. Under 8th skirmishers still have a ton more manoeuvrability, but you can no longer rely on them to do all the work for you.