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View Full Version : charging a unit that is dead....what gives?



vidrian
24-10-2010, 14:23
owkee so i was playing a game with my O&G last night...and a situation came up that got us both diving into the big book but no solutions where found.

Imagine this:

A unit of spider riders is about to get charged by a chariot, behind the spider rider unit is a unit of Night goblins with their favorite toys: fanatics! the spider riders declare a stand and shoot reaction and start firing away..failing miserably. the chariot rolls enough to charge the distance, BUT when it gets 3" away from the spider riders the fanatics pop out of the goblin unit. I decide to move the fanatics through the spider unit and they end up 1" away from the chariot.
The spider-riders get annihilated by the fanatics...completely blown to pieces. The chariot is now standing 1 inch from my fanatics, made his charge move partially, but cannot end the charge in combat....

NOW WHAT?

What happens when a unit decides to hold, but is still destroyed before the charge is finished?

vid.

Tarian
24-10-2010, 14:26
I believe the charger can declare a new redirect charge, as a new enemy was revealed to them as if the original target had fled. At least, that's what I would do.

bluemage
24-10-2010, 14:44
But you can't redirect as the charge was declared and accepted and the chariot was moved.

Anyways the charge would move to be in contact with where the spider riders used to be.

Anyways you'll get better answers asking this in the rules section.

Lord Inquisitor
24-10-2010, 14:49
A more common situation would be when a war machine is charged by a terror causer and fails its Ld test (and vanishes). We decided that it would simply be a failed charge in our game when it happened.

Pacorko
24-10-2010, 14:50
There's no need to redirect, me thinks.

For simplicity's sake, as Blue Mage mentions just complete the charge hitting the fanatics with all you've got and getting hit as well, then end it up where the spiders used to be.

Not the best ruling, I know, but I believe that it would keep the game flowing and reasonably adjudicated.

someone2040
25-10-2010, 01:18
A more common situation would be when a war machine is charged by a terror causer and fails its Ld test (and vanishes). We decided that it would simply be a failed charge in our game when it happened.
What would happen if the failed charge would not bring it into range of the Fanatics in the first place! Mind bender.
I think the charger should just end up where the unit used to be, as if the charge had been successful.
I don't think redirecting is right, since the new unit will know exactly whether or not the charger will make it to them. It also begs the question is if it fails to reach the new guys (or they flee), the charger may still end up not close enough for the fanatics to come out.

But boy, sucks for the Spider Riders XD.

sulla
25-10-2010, 02:11
The fanatic rules tell you what to do. Complete the charge move unless panicked. In this case, you would move your full charge distance rolled.

The only grey area is if another unit is contacted. The fluff for the rule mentions that momentum basically carries the unit onwards even when they stop, so you may wish to make the charge work like a random movement charge, or stop 1" away from any unit, or dice off for outcome each turn. But it's too late to make it a failed charge or redirect.

Lord_Elric
26-10-2010, 11:22
yeh the unit wouldnt stop mid charge it would complete the charge move first then the fanatic would be launched once it had made contact that how i see it anyway..

Ney
26-10-2010, 12:20
yeh the unit wouldnt stop mid charge it would complete the charge move first then the fanatic would be launched once it had made contact that how i see it anyway..

Which is even more wrong, fanatics is launched BEFORE the charge is completed.

The fanatic rules however does suggest that the charge by the charger must be completed, even though it is indeed an icky situation.

Lord_Elric
26-10-2010, 13:09
Which is even more wrong, fanatics is launched BEFORE the charge is completed.

The fanatic rules however does suggest that the charge by the charger must be completed, even though it is indeed an icky situation.

well yeh it states the charge must be completed so id move the charger into combat with the spiders before removing them the unit would take the normal attacks from the fanatics though your more likly to lose the fanatic straight away in this way.

Malorian
26-10-2010, 14:57
My vote is that the chariot is moved to the point where it would have been in contact with the spider riders.

AMWOOD co
26-10-2010, 15:31
A more common situation would be when a war machine is charged by a terror causer and fails its Ld test (and vanishes). We decided that it would simply be a failed charge in our game when it happened.

Umm, Mr. Inquisitor, sir, Terror causes a Panic Test and War Machines have very clear rules for dealing with panic on page 110.

As for the whole Fanatic issue, I would argue that the unit stops if it has moved at least the distance of the highest die roll (ie. a failed charge). I believe we all agree that the chariot/unit does not get to move back, so I'd likely dice off if someone wants to argue the case mid-game.

I would say there is no re-direct, though, as the Spiders never declared Flee as a charge reaction.

Lord Inquisitor
26-10-2010, 20:31
Good catch there! Very good. I did know the rules for war machine panic but I completely missed that the new Terror rules are actually a panic test. Hmm! That means that any unit that can re-roll or immune to panic are also re-roll/immune to Terror as well. Interesting.

Crube
26-10-2010, 20:42
Thread moved to WFB Rules



Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

Eltharil
26-10-2010, 20:46
Good catch there! Very good. I did know the rules for war machine panic but I completely missed that the new Terror rules are actually a panic test. Hmm! That means that any unit that can re-roll or immune to panic are also re-roll/immune to Terror as well. Interesting.

Immune to panic is not completely immune to terror but only to panic part of terror. The fear part of terro would still apply.

Lord Inquisitor
26-10-2010, 20:54
Agreed (I just mentally file that under "fear").

Eltharil
26-10-2010, 21:00
My vote is that the chariot is moved to the point where it would have been in contact with the spider riders.

i agree, the chariot was already moving as a successfull charger. I can't be anymore a failed charge.

The chariot move is first stopped when the fanatic is launched. Then, you move the fanatic. And finally, you move the chariot again to te point it would have been in contact with spiders.

Grimskarr
27-10-2010, 04:05
In the latest Warhammer Rulebook FAQ, page 6, bottom of 1st column:


Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close Combat phase, can I overrun?(p.58)
A: Yes.
So you would move up to where the Spider Riders were and THEN you could chose to overrun and engage the Night Goblins.

Conclusion: A poor set up for the O&G player if the fanatics fail to take out the chariot. He could very well end up losing two units to a single charge.

D'Haran
27-10-2010, 04:27
Doesn't seem to me that the FAQ was written with this eventuality in mind, however that doesn't mean that it isn't totally valid. Move it to where it would have been in contact with the spider riders and you may choose to overrun.

mishari26
27-10-2010, 05:18
In the latest Warhammer Rulebook FAQ, page 6, bottom of 1st column:


Q: If I charge an enemy and they are wiped out before the Close Combat phase, can I overrun?(p.58)
A: Yes.
So you would move up to where the Spider Riders were and THEN you could chose to overrun and engage the Night Goblins.

Conclusion: A poor set up for the O&G player if the fanatics fail to take out the chariot. He could very well end up losing two units to a single charge.

Then my question would be, which direction would the chariot use to overrun? does it align to the spiderriders' facing even though they got "splatted" before the chariot reached them?

Grimskarr
27-10-2010, 05:57
This is an unusual scenario but I'd say, yes, align with the Spider Riders facing and then Overrun directly along this new heading.

Eltharil
27-10-2010, 11:56
Very unusual but seems ok like this.

Lord Inquisitor
27-10-2010, 13:35
Hmm. That FAQ says what to do if you successfully charge and they're wiped out by shooting or magic.

I think if the unit is wiped out before you make the charge ... That's more iffy and even moreso to claim an overrun. I mean, you haven't completed your charge yet, I think trying to apply a FAQ that assumes you complete the charge is applying it beyond what it was intended for.

Perhaps the best solution would be to finish the charge in the same manner as a unit that charges and runs down a fleeing unit as this is the main reason you can complete a charge against a unit that is destroyed in the process. Complete the charge, then reform but no overrun.

theorox
27-10-2010, 14:37
A more common situation would be when a war machine is charged by a terror causer and fails its Ld test (and vanishes). We decided that it would simply be a failed charge in our game when it happened.

I agree, that's what i would do. :)

Theo

Ney
27-10-2010, 14:38
I would play it as the opponent made a flee reaction and you caught them on your charge move. Ofcourse this isn't supported directly by the rules, but that would be my suggestion if the scenario ever occured in a game.

Eltharil
27-10-2010, 20:25
Perhaps the best solution would be to finish the charge in the same manner as a unit that charges and runs down a fleeing unit as this is the main reason you can complete a charge against a unit that is destroyed in the process. Complete the charge, then reform but no overrun.

The other point is where ends the fanatic?

Grimskarr
28-10-2010, 06:30
If it makes contact with the chariot on its movement, an 1" beyond it.

If the chariot crashes into it on completing the charge, then it remains in place and the chariot takes D6 hits as it passes through.

If the chariot stops its movement on top of the fanatic, then the chariot takes 2D6 hits and the fanatic is removed.

Eltharil
28-10-2010, 08:49
I would play it as the opponent made a flee reaction and you caught them on your charge move. Ofcourse this isn't supported directly by the rules, but that would be my suggestion if the scenario ever occured in a game.

If it is like a flee reaction, you didn't catch them cause they are out of the table before you could reach them. And if the flee reaction makes you unable to reach them, this would be a failed charge.

The fact is that it could not be a a 'flee reaction like' as the unit is out of the battlefield after all charge reactions has been resolved.

Think about this: in another situation, if there are several charges, it is possible that a first charging unit blocks the road of another charging unit. This unit would start its charge movement and would be stopped at 1' of the first unit.
In our case, the fanatic stopped the charge movement et made it impossible to be completed by destroying the target. I think the charging unit should stay where the fanatic stopped it without reform or overrun (the road to the target is blocked by the fact that the target is out of the table).