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Yresk
24-10-2010, 14:31
two questions here.

1: space marines can more or less live forever. they might grow old but will never die of natural causes. and their great XP allows them to be a huge bonus to any army they fight with. is their any way a SM can fullfill his goal and be "Retired"?

2: it is clearly stated that space marines give away their humanity to save humanity of all the members of the imperium. they are no longer human. when all the hostiles have been taken care of(one hell of a fight no doubt). do they turn their guns on themselves? would they be kept as a guard force in case of more fighting or heresy? i know its a very strange subject because the galaxy is just too big to end everything. but we are talking hyptheticaly here.

Hendarion
24-10-2010, 14:39
1) A Space Marine serves until death or even bejond (Cybot). His live belongs to the Emperor. Correct me if this is wrong.

2) http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278693

Idaan
24-10-2010, 14:55
1. Not true. The only statement that pointed to this was in Horus Heresy books, as an in-character musings of one Marine, recalling how the Imperial gerontologists said as much. There's no reason why Imperium wouldn't feed this kind of propaganda to its troops to heighten their morale - it's unlikely that they'd ever discover it as the Crusade lasted only 250 years and Marines live up to 1000.
There's also no reason to make them immortal - as the characters themselves note, once the crusade was over, there would be no need for them.

Contrast this to Codex - Blood Angels saying that they have the greatest longevity of all Chapters. You can't have a longer and shorter expected lifespans if you're immortal.

Arthanor
24-10-2010, 15:09
1: Can't remember where I saw that but those marines who manage to not die in action and get old enough that they aren't really fit for action anymore usually become strategists and logisticians on board of the chapter's fleet/at the HQ.

Now given the age of the Blood Angel's commander and that he's still fighting, the likelihood on a marine going through all of that to become old seems fairly small.

AlphariusOmegon20
24-10-2010, 15:25
1. Not true. The only statement that pointed to this was in Horus Heresy books, as an in-character musings of one Marine, recalling how the Imperial gerontologists said as much. There's no reason why Imperium wouldn't feed this kind of propaganda to its troops to heighten their morale - it's unlikely that they'd ever discover it as the Crusade lasted only 250 years and Marines live up to 1000.
There's also no reason to make them immortal - as the characters themselves note, once the crusade was over, there would be no need for them.

Contrast this to Codex - Blood Angels saying that they have the greatest longevity of all Chapters. You can't have a longer and shorter expected lifespans if you're immortal.

Try again. There is one Salamander that is from the time of the Heresy in the book Salamander. That would be 10,000 years.

Col. Tartleton
24-10-2010, 15:34
Marines live until their job is complete. That's the only way to describe their longevity. A marine's will to live matched with their superhuman physiques could last for millennia. However that 10,000 year old salamander was in about as sorry of shape as the Emperor.

Marines tend to burn out pretty quickly I'd imagine. The named one's live for a while but the redshirt equivalent no namers get ripped to shreds. In bad ass give as good as they get dramatic ways, but ripped to shreds no less. Marines we know have two virtually contradictory things: Long careers and very high casualty missions. I'd presume that means they only campaign infrequently like prize fighters. Basically Marines would only engage every decade or less. Where they're most useful. Whenever we see marines going from fight to fight you see them burn through companies like nothing. Each company seems to lose a dozen+ men per deployment. They do a few of those and they're at half strength. They do enough and the chapter's extinct.

mob16151
24-10-2010, 15:42
Didn't one of the Death Guard in the HH books retire to Terra to work on a cure for Nurgles Rot?

Zweischneid
24-10-2010, 15:55
A job at Necromunda Mall Security?

Time to actually read the Codex Astartes front-to-back?

Build a life-size effigy of a Thunderbird from toothpicks?

Work as a part-time consultant on "minor" Xenos-incursions?

Inscribe in an elder-citizen-class with the Adeptus Ministrorum?

Go fishing?

Herne the hunter
24-10-2010, 17:28
Wait, so are they immortal or not? Because if so it makes no sense for them to get decrepit, 10,000 years old or no. If they get worse with age then inevitably they will reach a point where they cease to function altogether, ie; die, ergo; not immortal.

Also when did we start referring to dreadnaughts as cybots? I've only noticed that recently but I've noticed it a lot. Is it just gamer slang or is it an official term now?

Yresk
24-10-2010, 17:29
as you see people have varius ideas of how they work. at this point i would like to add dreads. Bjorn the fell handed of the space wolfes got entomed during HH and he is still fighting. getting a little slow but he is still alive.

intercepta
24-10-2010, 17:40
yeah the salamander was pretty much dead but didnt they refer to his armour and his joints being all seized up?

the blood angels do last the longest, as stated in the BA dex, i put this down to dante being amazing at stratergy and stuff and the BA just generally being well 'ard :p

also from what ive read age doesnt really effect them much, i think its just that they go a little mental and get killed except the BA who are either perfectly sane or PROPER mental :p

Hendarion
24-10-2010, 18:14
Also when did we start referring to dreadnaughts as cybots? I've only noticed that recently but I've noticed it a lot. Is it just gamer slang or is it an official term now?
Sorry, that's actually how dreadnaughts are named by GW in Germany. (I mean the German Codex entry is named "Cybot")

Herne the hunter
24-10-2010, 18:24
Ah right. I've only heard the term since I signed up here, but I'm sure I saw it on CMoN a few days back. Been a few editions since I last flicked through a SM codex so I thought maybe it was the new name for boring old regular dreads now that we also have venerables and iron-clads.

Lord_BoB
24-10-2010, 20:13
I think what the character, in horus rising, meant was that to other humans the astartes are immortals, they don't succumb to sickness or old age and generally live a 1000 years or so (which from human perspective could seem like eternity; I think most people have had days that felt like forever) before being killed. Maybe space marines are truly immortal and can live until they are killed, but very few have really lived long enough to find out.

It's like that saying. "I plan to live forever...it's working so far."

As for retirement, I doubt it, space marines are soldiers whos form of retirement is a large bullet to the brain, or sharp instrument, etc.

Lupe
24-10-2010, 21:00
Well, some Astartes might actually take up hobbies to pass the time. And every now and then, one of them might actually find something so worthwhile that he'll be pulled out of active duty (by the Chapter or by the Imperium) to do that. I'm thinking that guy researching Nurgle's rot, or the Blood Ravens librarian who ran an archaeology dig on Rahe's Paradise (Dawn of War book 2, I believe) . But anything else really major and beneficial to mankind would qualify.

insectum7
24-10-2010, 23:43
I think marines can occasionally be banished from a chapter for screwing up, it's not unlikely that there are rogues floating around.

Also, sometimes a marine is told to do penance by going on a personal crusade. Some may choose not to return.

Like Lupe suggests, sometimes it may be beneficial to suspend combat duties to engage in a different form of service temporarily.

Begs the question however, what do they do about the geneseed? A banished marine may not be granted the honor of having his geneseed return to the chapter, in other cases do they remove the organ? Probably depends on circumstance.

AlphariusOmegon20
25-10-2010, 01:54
Wait, so are they immortal or not? Because if so it makes no sense for them to get decrepit, 10,000 years old or no. If they get worse with age then inevitably they will reach a point where they cease to function altogether, ie; die, ergo; not immortal.



LOL he also hadn't moved from where he was sitting in 10K years. Muscles will atrophy without regular use, no matter who you are.

witchunter180
25-10-2010, 03:12
There is also Bjorn the FellHanded, who according to the Space Wolf codex had fought beside Leman Russ. Now, granted that is getting more into cybernetics. However, the idea that space marines can live forever is also mentioned in the book Eisenorn (an Inquisition omnibus, I'll see if I can find the spot but its long book). The question should also be posed as to how we are defining immortality, because a dreadnaught-bound marine is clinically immortal (meaning vitally sustained ). Similarly, the adepts of the adeptus mechanicus are also clinically immortal as they also live for thousands of years (longer barring injury), granted it is through replacing body parts with augmetics.

Nazguire
25-10-2010, 03:47
Try again. There is one Salamander that is from the time of the Heresy in the book Salamander. That would be 10,000 years.


What? Not in a Dreadnought or nothing? Well that just contravenes everything about Dreadnoughts, Marine lifespans, and everything else vaguely related to those topics.

Yresk
25-10-2010, 07:44
insectum7 brings up a very important question that i thaught of just as i wrote this post. the gene seed is very rare and valuable more than just about annything. a marine can live without his weapns, his armour. but his geneseed and the organs are valued more than snake venom acording to IA and AA.

so if you retire. do the apothecarys just cut you up and leave only whats left?

MagosHereticus
25-10-2010, 08:05
insectum7 brings up a very important question that i thaught of just as i wrote this post. the gene seed is very rare and valuable more than just about annything. a marine can live without his weapns, his armour. but his geneseed and the organs are valued more than snake venom acording to IA and AA.

so if you retire. do the apothecarys just cut you up and leave only whats left?

i dont think the organs can be recycled but they would probably extract the second geneseed

endless
25-10-2010, 08:11
insectum7 brings up a very important question that i thaught of just as i wrote this post. the gene seed is very rare and valuable more than just about annything. a marine can live without his weapns, his armour. but his geneseed and the organs are valued more than snake venom acording to IA and AA.

so if you retire. do the apothecarys just cut you up and leave only whats left?

Both sets of geneseed are removed relatively early on in the marine's life.

Sai-Lauren
25-10-2010, 08:43
One progenoid can be removed, the other is usually left and extracted at death.

I believe that Marines can "retire", but only if they've received injuries that are serious enough to render them non-combatant that they can't heal themselves, that can't be cured by giving them bionics, and aren't serious enough to put them in a Dreadnought - in other words, under incredibly rare circumstances. ;)

In that case, they would tend to take on a tutor type role for the new recruits, training them up until they're ready to join the scouts. They could also go to the household guard as commanders, or take non-combat roles in any of the specialisms if they have the skills/abilities. And some might fill "ambassadorial" roles to the Imperium, liasing between their chapter and the High Lords/ Munitorium, their territories planetary governors and so on.

A very rare few might be given the option to leave service and re-enter the population (Salamanders for example).

MagosHereticus
25-10-2010, 09:08
One progenoid can be removed, the other is usually left and extracted at death.

a guess would be that the second gland is difficult to remove without damaging the marine

madden
25-10-2010, 09:30
True if I remember right one seed is in the neck area and the other in the chest the first can be harvested after five years give or take and the other at death, as to immortal certain fluff says yes if there not KIA but no one nows as theve never lived long enought to find out.

Polaria
25-10-2010, 09:31
a guess would be that the second gland is difficult to remove without damaging the marine

The second gland is somewhere in the chest area, near the spine and/or heart. At least in older fluff the main task of Apothecary was to administer a .75 bolt round pension plan to any marine too badly wounded and then remove this gland. In Deathwatch RPG it is still stated that collecting glands from fallen Deathwatch marines is Apothecarys most important task when serving in DW. I think there is no recent mention of executing badly wounded/dying marines, but there sure was in older fluff.

endless
25-10-2010, 10:16
Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed anytime after it has matured.

WD 98. 'Creation of a Space Marine' ;)

Yresk
25-10-2010, 10:18
good job in finding the stuff. i had it in the back of my head but could not find it in my WD collection.

mob16151
25-10-2010, 11:58
What? Not in a Dreadnought or nothing? Well that just contravenes everything about Dreadnoughts, Marine lifespans, and everything else vaguely related to those topics.

Not necessarily, don't marines have the ability to go into some type of suspended animation?

Askil the Undecided
25-10-2010, 12:33
The Sus-an membrane? Not all of them have it the Imperial fists for a start lack it.

In short, Chaplain Cassius is meant the be the oldest Ultramarine at 400 and he's still fighting, Dante is meant to be the oldest living marine at 1100-ish and he's still fighting.

Retirement is more likely to come in the form of training pre-implantation aspirants, dreadnought intergration or hardwiring into a ship in the chapter fleet after horrific incapacitating injuries.

kamedake88
25-10-2010, 12:33
1. Not true. The only statement that pointed to this was in Horus Heresy books, as an in-character musings of one Marine, recalling how the Imperial gerontologists said as much. There's no reason why Imperium wouldn't feed this kind of propaganda to its troops to heighten their morale - it's unlikely that they'd ever discover it as the Crusade lasted only 250 years and Marines live up to 1000.
There's also no reason to make them immortal - as the characters themselves note, once the crusade was over, there would be no need for them.

Contrast this to Codex - Blood Angels saying that they have the greatest longevity of all Chapters. You can't have a longer and shorter expected lifespans if you're immortal.

Well said mate. Jesus of all the people on these boards you and Helebore impress me on how well you argue a point or provide information.

Scalebug
25-10-2010, 12:55
A very rare few might be given the option to leave service and re-enter the population (Salamanders for example).

The whole "Salamanders are nice guys living normal lives amongst the human population of their homeworld" is blown totally out of proportion on forums...

They just don't live separated from their recruitment base like the Space wolves (on a different landmass on the same planet), the Blood Angels (on the moon), or Dark Angels and Templars (on space ships just visiting their recruitement worlds when they need new aspirants), they are not your friendly neighbours coming over for beer and BBQ on saturdays... :rolleyes:

Sai-Lauren
25-10-2010, 13:23
The whole "Salamanders are nice guys living normal lives amongst the human population of their homeworld" is blown totally out of proportion on forums...

They just don't live separated from their recruitment base like the Space wolves (on a different landmass on the same planet), the Blood Angels (on the moon), or Dark Angels and Templars (on space ships just visiting their recruitement worlds when they need new aspirants), they are not your friendly neighbours coming over for beer and BBQ on saturdays... :rolleyes:

Hmm, and there was me thinking that their Index Astartes article specifically stated that they live in amongst the population, and act as community leaders, blacksmiths and so on. ;)

Different chapters treat the civilian population differently - some are very distant, others are closer and more empathic to them. The Salamanders happen to be one of the more "human" chapters.

Besides which, I didn't say they drink beer, host BBQs and attend the local junior sports game as a guest of honour, I said that they could potentially retire into the civilian population - even if that's just as a village elder/leader type role.
Friendly? They'd be ruthlessly intolerant of any crime or incidences of mutation, the local militia will be hard trained, and they'll almost certainly forget that the civilians physically can't do what a Marine can.

Yresk
25-10-2010, 15:10
i agree with the previus statment. hellbore, ideeam and heldarion always has this information relevant to the focus at hand. ive got alot of ideas and read several if not most of the IA imperial armour and rule books but i can never remember exactly from where they are.

back to the point. i think they do recycle the organs. since all of them are valuable as snake venom. they all have the same genetic code so there is no chance of rejection from the host. i think it makes more sense that they do snatch everything. from the boltgun to that last piece of secound heart.

Sai-Lauren
25-10-2010, 15:48
back to the point. i think they do recycle the organs. since all of them are valuable as snake venom. they all have the same genetic code so there is no chance of rejection from the host. i think it makes more sense that they do snatch everything. from the boltgun to that last piece of secound heart.

Aside from the similarities to the organ donor segment in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life ("We've come for your Liver" "But I'm still using it") that's a fine way to treat a hero of the chapter, who's done his service to the Emperor to the best of his abilities, yet been laid low by injury and/or time. ;)

Once he's had the gene therapy enhancements, he needs the implanted organs, else he'll die. And he can still serve the Emperor and contribute to the chapter, potentially training up the recruits and passing on his experience and wisdom to them, defending the chapter's holdings and so on, he's just not on front line duties any more.

If they've taken both Progenoids (which the Marine doesn't really need), they've got new organ germ cells for new recruits, and don't need to extract the Marine's organs as well - and if they have to have their surfaces protein coded specifically for the recipient prior to implantation anyway, they might not be able to - remember, Marine's get bionic replacements for damaged organs, which could mean that they would reject a donated organ from another Marine. Also, they don't organ harvest the dead, so they're not in that desperate a need for them.

To my knowledge, only blood's ever been shown being donated between Marines (the RT era article introducing Apothecaries: An Apothecary does a direct transfusion - it specifically mentions he's a bit wobbly because it's his 6th transfusion of the battle - before chopping the casualties ruined arm off with his chainsword and sealing off what's left).

spetswalshe
25-10-2010, 16:38
I support the idea of too-injured-to-return-to-the-fight Marines taking non-combatant roles - driving vehicles, maintaining armour or medical tech, that kind of thing - and also the potential of them being 'pensioned off' to help rule a civilized homeworld or oversee recruitment (though I imagine many would rather just take a Dredd-style Long Walk equivalent instead; imagine a 400-year special forces veteran for whom battle is an expression of faith being told he can't come to the party anymore).

However, I can also see a Marine retiree simply lying down on a medicae bed and having that last geneseed extracted, killing him and allowing a new recruit to step into his place. That seems to fit more with the self-sacrificing, limited numbers agenda; become damaged beyond repair and you'll still be able to serve by allowing a replacement to be recruited. Makes you wonder if a Dreadnought warrior gets himself harvested after his MOT finally runs out.


Marines we know have two virtually contradictory things: Long careers and very high casualty missions. I'd presume that means they only campaign infrequently like prize fighters. Basically Marines would only engage every decade or less. Where they're most useful. Whenever we see marines going from fight to fight you see them burn through companies like nothing. Each company seems to lose a dozen+ men per deployment. They do a few of those and they're at half strength. They do enough and the chapter's extinct.

I would see it more as us only getting told about the deployments that end in casualties. I imagine most missions (rather than the silly trench warfare stuff I seem to end up reading) go off without any casualties whatsoever, but they're just not really mentioned as it's business as usual.

Archaon
25-10-2010, 23:00
Wouldn't it be cool if the Marines took a page out of Judge Dredd and have their old veterans take the Long Walk out into whatever Deathworld or Chaos infested zone only armed with their trusted Bolter to deliver justice one last time?

I think this would be a noble end for a Marine who can't function on peak physical ability anymore but has one last good fight left in him.

"Realistically" i think those Marines who really have the luck and survive everything the universe throws at him are best suited to train up novices or act as counselor to the Chapter Master or other high ranking officers in the chapter.

insectum7
26-10-2010, 00:14
WD 98. 'Creation of a Space Marine' ;)

Awesome find. The best I got was 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis, which vaguely suggests as much but doesn't give time frames.

About organ harvesting/donating, it's probably up to the individual chapters more than anything else. Some chapters have pretty grisly rituals and tendencies, I could easily imagine some actively pulling of organs from dead marines. Like the quote in the old cyberpunk rulebook:

"Dead is dead. Parts is parts. Dead guys is parts."

Whitwort Stormbringer
26-10-2010, 01:30
Are all of the Heresy-era chaos marines assumed to be artifically or supernaturally sustained? One could certainly make the argument that Abbadon, and maybe Kharn, for instance, have lived on due to the intervention of the chaos gods, and Fabius Bile has perhaps extended his own life through experimentation.

What about Cypher, though? Isn't he also Heresy-era?

It seems pretty certain to me that marines do age, at least somewhat, based on the fact that older marines are almost always depicted with grey or white hair, assuming they have hair at all. This is especially apparent amongst the Space Wolves, but there are examples from other chapters as well.

Unless in addition to spitting acid and farting lightning, marines can also change their hair color at will, and unanimously decided to "go grey" after a while...

Sai-Lauren
26-10-2010, 12:08
Are all of the Heresy-era chaos marines assumed to be artifically or supernaturally sustained? One could certainly make the argument that Abbadon, and maybe Kharn, for instance, have lived on due to the intervention of the chaos gods, and Fabius Bile has perhaps extended his own life through experimentation.

What about Cypher, though? Isn't he also Heresy-era?

Time works differently in the Eye of Terror.

It might be 10,000 years in real time since a particular CSM was born, but as far as he's concerned, the Heresy may have been last week, or 10,000 years ago, but he's not aged one day...



It seems pretty certain to me that marines do age, at least somewhat, based on the fact that older marines are almost always depicted with grey or white hair, assuming they have hair at all. This is especially apparent amongst the Space Wolves, but there are examples from other chapters as well.

Unless in addition to spitting acid and farting lightning, marines can also change their hair color at will, and unanimously decided to "go grey" after a while...

I don't personally subscribe to the "Marines are effectively immortal" view, that's never been definitively stated. What they are is incredibly long lived, with fantastic regenerative powers.

And why wouldn't Marines start to go grey after a certain age? Hair colour isn't militarily important, so there's no point in gene-coding for it to stay.

And if they're that vain that it does matter to them, a) the Chaplain's should probably be having a word and b), there's always hair dye ;).

Polaria
26-10-2010, 12:40
I think one of the most solid and recent argument on Marines not being immortal is the new Blood Angels codex mentioning that Blood Angel line is renowned for living exceptionally long, siting Dantes old age of 1100 or so as an example of this. If the only way for marine to die was to be killed it I don't think they would have mentioned the "long age" at all.

Col. Tartleton
26-10-2010, 20:56
Yeah on that note about hair color, I think even if you stopped aging your hair would turn grey from the stress of the battlefield. There's also a note in the William King Spacewolf books that space wolves don't age at constant rates due to the geneseed. So a grey haired marine may be younger then a black haired marine. The wolf genes screw with them.

Also I believe the point of the Blood Angels is they don't seem to age. Dante is beyond a millenia (Lysander and Grimnar are getting up there IIRC) but Dante is more fit then then much younger marines. The point being he hasn't aged a day which is a common trait in the chapter. On the other hand Calgar is almost entirely machine at this point, grey haired, scarred as hell, and in his 300s if I'm not mistaken.

Phoebus
27-10-2010, 15:11
Where retirement is concerned:

Astartes fight for as long as they are able to. As long as there is no Geneseed deficiency, I would imagine it would be rather rare for an Astartes to not be able to fight for lack of physical ability... given augmetics, bionics, etc. Astartes crippled beyond a means for technology to repair strike me as prime candidates for serving as mentors.

Where aging is concerned:

The appearance of aging strikes me as a matter of comparative Geneseed purity and the process by which Astartes are made. It is qualified in the Index Astartes describing the creation rites for Space Marines that mysticism, ritualism, ignorance, etc., have seeped into the process. This can be seen in various Chapters. On the one hand, you have the Space Wolves. Logan Grimnar isn't decrepit, despite rivaling Dante in age. It is simply the Canis Helix that mutates Space Wolves in a way not consistent with proper Geneseed implantation.

Similarly, the Blood Angels take in the blood of Sanguinius, which does far more than just "keep them young"; it specifically turns radiated, emaciated misanthropes (in appearance) and changes their entire physical look. Do Blood Angels "live longer", or does the blood simply mutate them in a more pleasing manner than the Canis Helix? Who do they "live longer" than, anyways? Astartes who almost always die by the gun?

If there is a fluff reference to a physically decrepit Astartes (I don't count Iacton Qruze, as I subscribe to the theory that he is not a proper Astartes given inferences in "Horus Rising" and "Flight of the Eisenstein") or a Space Marine that dies of old age, I would chalk that up to imperfect authors. We all make mistakes.

The Salamander in that Chapter's recent novel lived for ten thousand years... and he did so in the worst way possible. He atrophied (and his armor seized) not merely due to time, but for sheer inactivity. He was trapped, alone, and with nothing to do. Time probably had as much to do with his physical inability as it would if I decided to sit on my couch for a decade and not move. Blame the time (which would still leave me in my prime), or the atrophying due to non-activity?

Cheers,
P.

Cythus
27-10-2010, 19:50
I've always assumed that those SMs who are too old/injured for active combat duty act as mentors, naval officers and most importantly vehicle pilots/gunners.

Most chapters can be totally mechanised at thats at least 30 pilota/gunners per company (rhinos, preds, vind. whirlwinds etc) so you're going to need at least 350 per chapter and assuming only the rare few marines are going to choose vehicle duties on leaving the scout company, its the only explainable method for supplying these marines.

AstartesWarMachine
27-10-2010, 20:02
A bit odd about the gene seed gland. Sources imply the neck one is the "Early" one but I have read many books that indirectly insinuate the apothecaries are taking the neck one off of the dead. Though I suppose it makes more sense the other way around.

intercepta
31-10-2010, 23:44
theres a guy in the heresy books in Horus' legion who is said to be REALLY old and almost senial, the unheard i think his name is, he rarely goes into battle and just gives advice and stuff

also isnt their someone in the slamader books who goes on a walk with no power armour on, no food, no drink to 'reflect' and few return..... someone else is going to have to look it up as i normally use a good friend who works in nottingham as a library :p

Dante is the oldest living marine at the moment, dreadnoughts dont count as you can turn them off for 5-600 years at a time.... i think very few live past 5-600 years either, mainly cos they die those that are so so lucky they dont well i guess they could goto terra to work as diplomats, works on mars training new chapters.... inquisition..... anything is possible...

i like the thought of them training new chapters :D

oh another thought... when they get REALLY old they put themselves in harms way to help save a fellow marine...... self sacrafice for the greater good.... imagine killing thousands of people, things over hundreds of years..... you would go mental... as in prober nuts!! so before that happens try and head butt something twice the size of you :p

TheDarkDaff
02-11-2010, 01:44
I really don't see many Marines as reaching a point where they would retire. They are combat troops and if they are affected by the ageing process becoming slower and such then it would be more likely they die on the field. They don't strike me as having the personality to retire gracefully, rather they would keep pushing until they ran into something too hard for them to handle. Of course the tricks they pick up over time will go some way to leveling the field against younger and stronger marines.

Balgora
03-11-2010, 03:06
You can't have a longer and shorter expected lifespans if you're immortal.

Yes you can...if you are still vulnerable to physical things like hairy arsed demons..but not by time.

Cry of the Wind
03-11-2010, 15:05
Just reading the Rynn's World Space Marine book. In there one marine notes a frail old women in a crowd of admirers and makes a note to himself about becoming old and frail and how horrible it must be to have your body turn on you or something like that. In passing he thinks to himself only the miracle of his Astarte's genes prevents him from meeting that fate.

This would suggest immortality but I can see it meaning instead that they don't suffer the normal aging process. They may grow old but their bodies don't weaken like ours do. They simple reach a point where they're battered to the point of no longer combat effective or the "batteries" on their genes run out and they die.

MagosHereticus
03-11-2010, 15:15
Just reading the Rynn's World Space Marine book. In there one marine notes a frail old women in a crowd of admirers and makes a note to himself about becoming old and frail and how horrible it must be to have your body turn on you or something like that. In passing he thinks to himself only the miracle of his Astarte's genes prevents him from meeting that fate.

This would suggest immortality but I can see it meaning instead that they don't suffer the normal aging process. They may grow old but their bodies don't weaken like ours do. They simple reach a point where they're battered to the point of no longer combat effective or the "batteries" on their genes run out and they die.

maybe they just reach a point were they suffer organ failure and die quickly without the wasting away that happens as normal humans age

or maybe considering that most marines suffer horrendous wounds quite regularly throughout their careers, that there comes a point were they are no longer able to cope being sown back together an the die, maybe the blood angles longevity comes from their ability to recover from serious injuries more easily than other marines such that they dont wear out as quickly

Cry of the Wind
03-11-2010, 15:22
That's basically what I was thinking MagosHereticus. Blood Angels might also have longer "batteries". Maybe it has to do with them sleeping in those chambers whenever they can. They rejuvenate their organs and heal their wounds.

Brother korko
03-11-2010, 20:23
i feel thats space marines die (comparitavly)quicker because of the career, which has them battle almost everything that dosn't agree with them. it seems to me that they have only one survival tip for new recruts. learn, adapt or die, then pray that your one of the lucky ones that can keep doing this battle after battle. and plus no hero, no matter how experianced and well equipped he is can fall by a lucky blow from something as small as a grot (seen lysander fall by a unit of lucky grots).

i like the idea of the senior marines just give up there organs for new recruits, makes me feel like the marines are self-sacrificeing for the empourer in giving a more "springy" and healthier marine a chance. who knows maybe they would give their geneseed to the next chaptermaster as far as they know.

MEcorp
03-11-2010, 21:25
In one of the Soul Drinker books (the first one, don't remember the title) a Captain (IIRC) who is injured chooses to die and give up his gene-seed rather than take the dread/bionics route. Its done like a tragic/heroic sacrifice, he gives his death bed speech, the Apothecary slowly closes the door, the whole shebang. I imagine many marines would do the same. Their generally good enough to know if their not gonna make it and smart enough to do the right thing. It for the good of the chapter for them to retire.

I think most of the aspirants early training would be done by serfs only once you get the organs do you become worth a marines time. Most marines training would benefit from training-by-example having cripples tell you how to fight can only get you so far. I seem to recall a novel (one of the Ragnar books perhaps?) mentioning a Chaplain who oversaw the marines training. This is how I think it would be done, you have some sort of home-guard to defend your planet and sense no one would be dumb enough to mess with them they actually get to spend most of their time training recruits. Still able-bodied just not currently active, though how you would get in such a company I don't know.

Death quests or 'walking of into the wastes' is a HUGE waste of resources it costs you two marines (the one who's dying, despite clearly being able to walk and fight, and the one who will use the geneseed in his chest) and whatever materials that marine brings with him. Space marines are confident enough in their bad*ssery that they wouldn't need to do that, any way they chose to die would be hardcore and they know it.

Lord_Crull
03-11-2010, 21:29
The Salamander in that Chapter's recent novel lived for ten thousand years... and he did so in the worst way possible. He atrophied (and his armor seized) not merely due to time, but for sheer inactivity. He was trapped, alone, and with nothing to do. Time probably had as much to do with his physical inability as it would if I decided to sit on my couch for a decade and not move. Blame the time (which would still leave me in my prime), or the atrophying due to non-activity?


Of course, such a thing would play a part. However were'nt the Salamanders who discovered him shocked that he was still alive?

SolkaTruesilver
03-11-2010, 21:30
Hum... can a Dreadnought ask for his own termination?

I mean.. if he has had ennough (not hard to believe), yet he doesn't want to destroy the precious technology by exposure in combat...

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 08:32
Hum... can a Dreadnought ask for his own termination?

I mean.. if he has had ennough (not hard to believe), yet he doesn't want to destroy the precious technology by exposure in combat...


http://static.nuklearpower.com/comics/warbot/090707.jpg

Nazguire
04-11-2010, 10:46
In one of the Soul Drinker books (the first one, don't remember the title) a Captain (IIRC) who is injured chooses to die and give up his gene-seed rather than take the dread/bionics route. Its done like a tragic/heroic sacrifice, he gives his death bed speech, the Apothecary slowly closes the door, the whole shebang. I imagine many marines would do the same. Their generally good enough to know if their not gonna make it and smart enough to do the right thing. It for the good of the chapter for them to retire.


I do not recall this in Soul Hunter, though the book is not at hand admittedly. If you mean Malcharion, he didn't want to be put in a dreadnought, he begged not to, and still was shut up in one anyway.

MEcorp
04-11-2010, 18:06
no i mean the Soul Drinker books, the ones about the Soul Drinkers, with the schemes and the betrayal and the insect librarian. Not Soul Hunter, which is about the Night Lords with the betrayal and the terror and the psykic apothecary.

borithan
04-11-2010, 20:59
The Sus-an membrane? Not all of them have it the Imperial fists for a start lack it.

In short, Chaplain Cassius is meant the be the oldest Ultramarine at 400 and he's still fighting, Dante is meant to be the oldest living marine at 1100-ish and he's still fighting.

Retirement is more likely to come in the form of training pre-implantation aspirants, dreadnought intergration or hardwiring into a ship in the chapter fleet after horrific incapacitating injuries.The 2nd edition Ultramarine's Codex made the point that Cassius is a rare example of a Space Marine serving in combat roles at his age (I think it is 500 rather than 400). It says most who reach his age retire from combat and do more supporting roles. Space Marines do age (and in a degenerative fashion), so therefore it is almost certain that they die of natural causes. We know not all Space Marines die in combat, as they apparently retire from combat, and the oldest living Space Marine is 1100. Therefore those that reach "retirement age" must die sometime before 1100, and as we have never seen any evidence of a suicide policy among ageing Space Marines they are most likely dying of old age.

Oh, and the comments in the Horus Heresy series are all when the oldest Space Marines are 200-300 years old. Ie, well before they have reached the expected retirement age, and even then we have older Space Marines who are noted for not being as spry as the younger ones. And they are comments or thoughts had by characters who would not expected to have a full knowledge of the scientific effects of the geneseed. They are very long lived (Blood Angels especially so), but they are not immortal (though it may be the case that early Space Marines, like those in the Horus Heresy, might live a bit longer than current Marines).

SolkaTruesilver
04-11-2010, 21:05
http://static.nuklearpower.com/comics/warbot/090707.jpg

What a depressing coming.


Oh, and am I the only one who think "longer life average" for the Blood Angels that it simply means they just happen to die less often in battle, thu living longer, and has nothing to do with the natural lifespan?

I mean, death in battle (or battle-related) must account for about 99,99999% of Space Marines' death.

Cry of the Wind
04-11-2010, 22:01
What a depressing comic.


Oh, and am I the only one who think "longer life average" for the Blood Angels that it simply means they just happen to die less often in battle, thu living longer, and has nothing to do with the natural lifespan?

I mean, death in battle (or battle-related) must account for about 99,99999% of Space Marines' death.


I don't think the Blood Angels die any less, if anything they are more reckless with their lives because of the lingering threat of the Black Rage. I think for them they just stay youthful longer (while Cassius is an old git held together by bionics a Blood Angel would not need them). They may also take more "down time" to work on their arts and crafts :p

Also if you think that comic is sad look up the rest of them...

Hellebore
05-11-2010, 01:39
What a depressing coming.


Oh, and am I the only one who think "longer life average" for the Blood Angels that it simply means they just happen to die less often in battle, thu living longer, and has nothing to do with the natural lifespan?

I mean, death in battle (or battle-related) must account for about 99,99999% of Space Marines' death.

There is nothing in blood angel background that suggests they are somehow more resilient in combat, in fact, it is the opposite. They suffer more described casualties than any other space marine chapter that I've found so far.

The space hulk background describes over 900 blood angels killed in that one assault, that's 90% of their entire chapter annihilated in a single campaign. Similarly the Dalaric Campaign in the BA timeline lists over 100 battle brothers being slaughtered in a single ambush. The BA forces consisted of 3 companies, so they lost more than 1/3rd of their forces in a single engagement.

The death company are more resilient because they don't feel any wounds, but they are guaranteed to die whether they go into combat or not (as the black rage kills them).

In fact, statistically, the very existence of the death company should REDUCE average Blood Angel lifespans due to its universally fatal results. That the Blood Angels produce a regular amount of DC warriors means that death by black rage is common enough that it would statistically cut BA potential life span.

If not then you wouldn't get anyone being Death Company.

The blood angels also have the quickest marinification process known, producing a fully modified marine in one year from recruitment, rather than the almost decade of laborious surgery and modification every other chapter has to go through. Thus suffering high casualties is not actually that dangerous for them as they can replace them in a single year, dependent on how many golden sarcophagi they have to produce aspirants.

Hellebore

lolcat
05-11-2010, 01:55
Forgive me if i am wrong on this, but IA9 Part I makes mention of a chapter master who is entering into the better part of his 600's with emphasis placed upon how he is well past his prime.

Balgora
05-11-2010, 05:31
Yes but is that a literal old age or an artificial old age brought on by 6 centuries of living as an unnatural, genetically modified monk who spends nearly all of his waking time fighting or preparing physically and mentally to fight.

The cumulative effect of hardcore training combined with a chemically difficult to maintain body, constant fight and countless injuries that never quite heal? Or just Space Marine middle age?

SolkaTruesilver
05-11-2010, 13:03
Also if you think that comic is sad look up the rest of them...

5 strips in, and I already want to offer my resignation at the office... :cries:

Daddy? It's so dark.. Daddy? can you hear me?

MagosHereticus
05-11-2010, 13:20
5 strips in, and I already want to offer my resignation at the office... :cries:


i could not stop thinking about dreadnoughts after seeing that comic, i bet they were a part inspiration (the fist and the assault cannon)