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logan054
24-10-2010, 18:42
I had a strange thing come up in game today, basically I had a unit if Tzeentch warriors in combat with a steggie, a unit a trolls was behind them, some distance away. A unit of salamanders targeted the trolls which were blatantly out of range so they could shoot into combat at the chaos warriors, is this even legal?

Lord_Elric
24-10-2010, 20:06
NO! a template weapon can not be fired in such a way as to hit a unit that is in combat the only way you can hit a unit in combat is due to scattering templates by accident.

The same goes for a cannon u cant fire it in such a way as to hit a combat fow example aiming the cannon at a unit that has a combat directly behind them (and within range of the bounce).

Same goes for purposefully estimating ranges badly

logan054
24-10-2010, 21:32
I didn't think so, cheers mate, i couldn't really see it actually covered in the book but I only had a quick flick through and 3 people saying you could do it but its a bit dirty. Bloody kids in GW

solkan
25-10-2010, 03:30
If the trolls were beyond the maximum range of the attack, page 39 says that you can't shoot at them. Nothing in the Salamander not-a-breath-weapon rules counters that rule, and the attack is listed as "Range: Artillery Dice".

And page 39 also states "You cannot purposely aim a template so that some of your models will be hit." You're shooting a flame template.

Note that the Lizardman FAQ says that the attack IS NOT a breath weapon, so unless you're using the rules for templates to determine hits, the attack actually does nothing.

And your initial rebuttal was "A quick skim of the rules and three random people said it was okay." :wtf:

logan054
25-10-2010, 12:15
Well I couldn't find anything that said you could through a quick skin of the book :P random people in GW seemed to think it was within the rule, just a bit unsporting? I personally thought that interpretation was a bit like a essex girl. Very loose and something you don't do unless your really desperate ;) At the end of the day if you see someone turn up to a 500pts game with skinks, a wizard and steggie you know your not what kind of game your going to have.

Korraz
25-10-2010, 13:03
But if the Trolls would be in range and you could place the template at them, without touching your own miniatures, then you can hit the combat "by accident."

logan054
25-10-2010, 13:53
Maybe I have a different understanding of the word accident then, accident in my books tend to means something that happens unintentionally, it does not mean "If you target those trolls you can shoot into combat". I would imagine if the trolls had of been infront and the template overshoot into combat then that would have been accidentally, atleast the trolls are actually in range this time!

Lord_Elric
25-10-2010, 14:18
But if the Trolls would be in range and you could place the template at them, without touching your own miniatures, then you can hit the combat "by accident."

NO! because you CANNOT "Place" the template in a way that hits a unit in combat you would have to settle for hitting fewer trolls. You also can not guess the range in front of the unit in combat expecting the artillery dice to take the marker passed the unit because your still choosing the ditance.

To sum up the ONLY way a template weapon can hit a unit that is in combat unless otherwise is stated in the weapons/units/armys description is by the use of the "Scatter dice"

@logan.....if the trolls were in front of the unit then you would have to fire it so that the wepon didnt have a chance of hitting the unit behind by either placing your range marker more than 10 inches away from the unit so it coulnt hit. Though the sportsman in me would let my opponent place the template to hit the maximum he could in the target but IF the template also hit a CC i woulnt ler him to roll to wound against it..

Korraz
25-10-2010, 18:43
Range guessing is gone. If that template goes that much inches and hits only one troll, but blows that knights...then everything went better than expected. Of the template goes to short or too far, then it is that way. What is under the template is hit.

Lord_Elric
25-10-2010, 21:07
Range guessing is gone. If that template goes that much inches and hits only one troll, but blows that knights...then everything went better than expected. Of the template goes to short or too far, then it is that way. What is under the template is hit.

Try reading the rules again!!

Apologise however the fire thrower rules state it moves straight from the barrel and faces away from the WM so normal targeting rules apply when hitting units in close combat you coulnt pivot the warmachine so that it was aimed at a close combat to fire it the rules id refered to were for cannons with regards to placing markers...

logan054
25-10-2010, 23:26
Well cheers Eric, you certainly answered my question, the long and the short of it is the guy I was playing against was a cheating little s*** ;) lhopefully next time I get to play some warhammer people are actually going to follow the rules!

Glasscannon
26-10-2010, 10:04
if you see someone turn up to a 500pts game with skinks, a wizard and steggie you know your not what kind of game your going to have.

often im very thankful of having a smaller gaming community here, means people like that will have a much harder time finding a game.

logan054
26-10-2010, 17:16
He was going on about how great his army was at 500pts, no wonder ;) it's actually a small gaming group in GW, I guess however I will have to bring the DE out next time, I pretty sure a Hydra would fit into 750pts rather nicely and be equally as challenging to use ;)

H33D
26-10-2010, 19:28
Page 39, BRB "Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word here is 'accidentally' - you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit. See page 108 for more details on war machines."

Page 108 starts talking about war machines and nothing there talks about shooting into combat for the entire section.

So you can't purposefully shoot yourself. Period. You can accidentally shoot yourself, and you can shoot a flame cannon at a unit that MAY overshoot into combat as well. There is nothing in the rulebook that I can find that says you can't.

If you think there is something that says you can't please show me where it is in the BRB.

Palatine Katinka
26-10-2010, 19:54
Cannons can't do it. p112 Choose Target paragraph 3 "Note that you are not allowed to make a cannon shot in such a way that it has a chance of hitting a friendly unit or an enemy unit that is engaged in combat." So, even if there is a chance of hitting friends you can't take the shot.

However, Fire Throwers and Stone Throwers don't say anything about it. Which means the guy was cheating, but only if the trolls were blatantly out of range said in the original post. The guy can measure before taking the shot and if it is impossible for him to reach the trolls then he can't take the shot. Hitting the combat cannot be claimed "accidental" if hitting the target is impossible.

logan054
26-10-2010, 21:59
Page 39, BRB "Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy.

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word accident, if you are pointing you you flame weapon directly at a unit in combat and targeting a unit behind them which is out of range, how exactly are you accidentally shooting into combat? your not, you are deliberately shooting you weapon in such as as to allow you to shoot in combat.

As for being in range of the salamanders, not a chance, he was in his deployment zone on the far right, i was in the center of the board before i fled a charge. We didn't measure the distance because we could see it wasn't in range, it wasn't exactly hard to tell. Basically his steggie charged the trolls, I fled the charge, steggie redirected into the warriors and thus removing their target for the turn.

His team mate did make several comments to him through out the game about sporting and then apologized to me after the game for how unsporting he had been.

Palatine Katinka
26-10-2010, 23:04
If he agreed that there was no need to measure range because he was obviously out of range then he shouldn't have taken the shot.

Tae
27-10-2010, 07:32
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word accident, if you are pointing you you flame weapon directly at a unit in combat and targeting a unit behind them which is out of range, how exactly are you accidentally shooting into combat? your not, you are deliberately shooting you weapon in such as as to allow you to shoot in combat.


I do not believe he was referring specifically to your case, I think he was talking in more general terms.

So whilst you can't do what happened in your case if the units were the other way round it's perfectly legal. Targetting a unit in front of a combat but then overshooting into the combat is perfectly legal.

As mentioned before, only cannons have the rule not allowing them to have even the potential to hit combat.

PeG
27-10-2010, 09:59
only cannons have that particular rule but all others still have the rules that you can only hit combat by accident. I agree with previous posters that its not an accident if you fire a weapon with a random distance and it hits a combat. It might even be more likely to happen then that you hit the target you state that you are aiming for.

I would argue that the only way of firing a warmachine into combat is by scattering or by shooting in a random distance (at least skaven can do the latter).

logan054
27-10-2010, 11:59
Well by the sounds of it, doing such things is a bit of grey area that you should save for tournament play, I certainly agree that targeting a unit infront of a combat but overshooting into combat is totally legal.