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vypyr
11-03-2006, 18:28
heres one that me and a friend bumped into yesterday and couldnt find anything in the brb to cover it

i believe the battle was my silver helms (with full command) vs his nurgel chaos warriors with an uber hero of death in it. he had a good combat phase and took out 4 of my 5 remaning silver helms. i took all silver helms away but the champion, which means that the rest of my command section had died in the combat. needless to say, my silver helm champion broke and ran away, with the warriors in hot pursuit...

question is this - since he ran down my unit, but the standard bearer died in combat and wasnt run down himself, does he get my banner for victory points?

god octo
11-03-2006, 18:53
yes, he would still get the points. Think of it as though a warrior picked up the banner from the corpse when the unit chased the silver helm down.

Hope that helps.

Crazy Harborc
11-03-2006, 18:57
Opinion time is my guess.

IMHO, if the standard bearer died in the HtH fighting it's assumed a member of the unit picked up the fallen standard. The unit champion could easily be the one with the unit's standard as he tried to run away. He would of course, drop the standard just as a fleeing standard bearer does. If the enemy unit pursues it captures the standard.

It's one of those many "gray areas" in the system.

Festus
11-03-2006, 19:36
Hi

I'd hardly call it a grey area: If the standard bearer dies in the turn the unit breaks from combat, you still capture the standard.
It is the same phase of the same turn.

Greetings
Festus

DeClaw
12-03-2006, 04:21
So far my opinion at the time holds out, the standard gets captured. In saying that though I think Festus has a good point - it should only count if "It is the same phase of the same turn".

Steel_Legion
12-03-2006, 11:08
i thought the standard bearer was the last model removed? not the champion?

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-03-2006, 11:32
i thought the standard bearer was the last model removed? not the champion?


You can remove the standard anytime you please. There is nothing in the rules about it being the last model removed. It could be the first! What the rules says is that you may have another model pick up the banner and so don't have to remove it.

But thats quite different.

And DeClaw, Festus pretty much quoted the rule. It only counts if it's the same phase the banner is removed and the unit breaks.

Tarax
12-03-2006, 12:50
You can remove the standard anytime you please. There is nothing in the rules about it being the last model removed. It could be the first! What the rules says is that you may have another model pick up the banner and so don't have to remove it.


There's no rule for that.

p. 108 "Standard Bearers are not normally removed as casualties, as it is assumed ... another warrior would pick up the banner and take his place."

It's just for convenience that you remove a 'normal' models instead of the SB.

Models that form the command group will be the last to be removed form combat, no matter what. Apart form the champion, who can be picked out in combat, normal r-n-f will be removed as casualties. If you are suffering more casualties that there are normal r-n-f, then you can choose which model from the command group you remove, either Standard Bearer, Musician and even the Champion.

Festus
12-03-2006, 13:18
Hi

Models that form the command group will be the last to be removed form combat, no matter what.

You can always remove a model of the command group to satisfy combat losses, as they are Rank'n'File models (Yes, even the champion is a R'n'F model, even if he has a slightly different profile).

You don't need to remove them if you can remove other R'n'F, though. (exception: cc-hits directed specifically at the champion)

If you remove them, you can remove any command model you want. Anytime. There is no rule to prevent or which says otherwise.

Note, however, that there is no advantage to be gained by removing command models prematurely, though.

Greetings
Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-03-2006, 18:21
Note, however, that there is no advantage to be gained by removing command models prematurely, though.

Greetings
Festus


Not true. Removing a banner early might prevent the enemy capturing it and getting points for it.

Harde to time and predict when to do of course, but it can end up savng you some points.

Festus
12-03-2006, 18:54
Hi

Yes, if you posses powers of clairvoinance, it may help you, as you will have to *kill off* the Standard bearer at least one round of cc in advance :D

The only *real* advantage I see is to kill off a champion early to hinder a challenge taking place. But this seems to be the brainchild of a very rare occurence, indeed...

Greetings
Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-03-2006, 19:11
It works a lot better with unbreakble or undead units, as it's much easier to predict when that unit will be gone.

But still, it's a rather special case.

mageith
12-03-2006, 19:41
There's no rule for that.


Q. If a unit has only it s command group left, and removes the standard bearer, does that deny the enemy from collecting victory points for the standard?

A. If the standard bearer is removed as a casualty, then the enemy will only get the victory points for capturing it if the unit is destroyed completely in the same round of combat, or the unit flees and is pursued in that same round of combat. St Patrick Day Q&A 2004CHAMPIONS AND FRONT RANK:

T10
12-03-2006, 22:05
I have seen the "rule" enforced that the banner bearer is the last model in the unit to be removed - removing the champion as a casualty before the banner even.

I haven't bothered correcting anyone on this as I think it makes perfect sense. I like banner bearers. :)

-T10

Crazy Harborc
12-03-2006, 23:12
In the games I've been involved in and or heard about, The unit champion picks up the unit's standard. Never heard anything about a unit champ NOT being allowed to "save the standard" from the ground.

EDIT TIME.........that happens when the unit champ's the only one left.

mageith
13-03-2006, 01:08
In the games I've been involved in and or heard about, The unit champion picks up the unit's standard. Never heard anything about a unit champ NOT being allowed to "save the standard" from the ground.

Interesting. I've never seen it and I can't recall anyone ever trying to do it. The rule would allow it is the one that indicates a champion is "effectively another model in the unit" (109). However that would also mean that the champion could conceivably do this at anytime and would then not be targetable ("The enemy cannot specifically attack Standard Bearers..." (108)) but a champion can only be killed by being targeted so this would be a loop only ended by by the champion/standard bearer dying as the last model in the unit.



EDIT TIME.........that happens when the unit champ's the only one left.
:) As long as everyone is a good sport about it.

Mage Ith

Crazy Harborc
13-03-2006, 18:39
Sorry, I should have said that we have the unit's champ take the standard when it's/he's the ONLY unit member left.

Borthcollective
13-03-2006, 19:27
So you cannot capture standards from Undead units, is this correct?

Vogon
13-03-2006, 21:24
Er no.

if the unit is completely wiped out you get the standard whether undead or not.

Cheers

Vogon

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-03-2006, 05:45
Sorry, I should have said that we have the unit's champ take the standard when it's/he's the ONLY unit member left.


And he still remains a champion? How about the musician too?


Never seen anyone let the champion, or any other member of the command group fill in for each other.

In effect, they can only fill one command function.

Avian
14-03-2006, 15:06
There is nothing in the rulebook that suggests that removing the standard bearer removes the standard. Heck, a unit can carry any number of standards without ever having a standard at all.

That Q&A just allows for more sillyness.

SuperBeast
14-03-2006, 15:18
I'd say the simplest response is that if the unit is destroyed and/or pursued in the same combat round that it was entitled to the standard's combat res, you've lost it.
But that wouldn't be half as much fun to discuss. :p

polanowj
15-03-2006, 22:23
I have removed a standard bearer from a unit of knights that got hammered by gunfire on their way across the table, used them after as a suicide squad to tuck into a unit to try and hold at least for a turn (that always lovely -3 to your leadership roll....). I knew they were going to get croaked, so elected to take the standard bearer out first. So I think there are times when you can 'elect' to do so.

Festus
16-03-2006, 07:26
Hi

I have removed a standard bearer from a unit of knights that got hammered by gunfire on their way across the table, used them after as a suicide squad to tuck into a unit to try and hold at least for a turn (that always lovely -3 to your leadership roll....). I knew they were going to get croaked, so elected to take the standard bearer out first.

I think that this was highly un-fluffy. Those were knights, and they take pride in their *rag on a pole*. They'd never let it fall voluntarily if it can be helped.

Why not buy the unit without a standard, anyways?

Greetings
Festus

Crazy Harborc
17-03-2006, 01:59
I do agree with Festus about it being un-fluffy to kill off the statndard bearer to avoid an opponent gaining points for capturing it after a later round of HtH. "Legal" or not, it's not very "fluffy".