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Shiv-knight
26-10-2010, 06:14
Hi all,

I just got a chance to look at the DE codex at the local GW store and was dismayed to see the big "this army is for expert players only" disclaimer. I've played 40K on and off since 3rd edition but I haven't seriously played for nearly 2 years.

I have a fully painted 3rd edition DE force and am looking forward to picking up some of the new models. However, I don't want to get constantly roflstomped as I try to get back into 40K. I guess I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "expert." I think I have a good feel for taking advantage of terrain, basic tactics, and 40K game mechanics. What I'm rusty on is what other armies can do, especially the codexes that have come out in the past few months. I'm also wondering if the DE are still a "one bad move and it's over" army, or if the new codex gives them a little more survivability.

I know we're still in the theoryhammer phase, but I'd love to hear the thoughts of other DE players.

athanasius1812
26-10-2010, 06:59
They are still the epitome of the glass hammer, thus the "expert players only" disclaimer. If you make a bad move, you can easily see an expensive unit vaporize, or even all of your expensive units vaporize.

On the other hand, you say you have a firm grasp on terrain, basic tactics, and 40k mechanics. If you keep in mind the concept of local superiority and are able to use the high mobility of the DE to create a series of miniature mismatches you will do fine. Also, cover is MUCH more effective than it was in 3rd, so your fragile DE units can actually survive assuming you use terrain to your advantage.

To put it succinctly, I wouldn't worry about it. You may get roflstomped a bit early on but that will decrease quickly and the DE are one of those armies that will show a steep increase in effectiveness as you familiarize yourself with them. I would be willing to bet that after the first few games you won't have to worry about it again. Also, keep in mind that we all have the occasional bad outing. The advantage of a DE list is that a truly bad outing will have the game over in only 1/2 hour, rather than the 2 hours it takes to get roflstomped with a marine army. :)

tlronin
26-10-2010, 10:53
Haha, say that again. My last game I rolled my dice so bad, I couldn't even blow up 1 LandRaider with 13 Dark Lances (and he had 3 full with models). Turn 2 he was at my doorstep eating through my soft Warriors.

What have I learned? Don't lean too much on DL's to do the job for you. Sometimes they simply will not. Thus keep Warriors mobile for emergencies in Raiders (one solution). Don't put all your troopchoices in one place (I should've known this really... maybe I was sleepy that day).

Just to show how you'll continue learning. Never be afraid for disclaimers like that. Play the army you want most (unless ofcourse you wnt to play the easiest army there is).

Johnnyfrej
26-10-2010, 11:01
I'm actually quite nervous about facing a mod=b of 20 Warriors kitted out with a Hoemunculus sitting on an objective, especially if that is in a ruin or cover. You are looking at 8 pt models that have a 4+ cover, 5+ save with 4+ FnP, and are scoring. If you get close enough to try to assault that is a lot of dakka they can bring, nevermind all their "heavy" weapons happen to be assault 3 or higher.

Godzooky
26-10-2010, 11:02
That disclaimer just sounds more like a hint to Mumma & Papa to get l'il Johnny some Sphess Mehreens instead.

eldargal
26-10-2010, 11:09
Every army is going to have a learning curve, and the Dark Eldar revamp is so extensive even we existing DE players will need to readjust in a big way. So yes you might lose a lot of games, so what? Learn from it, get stronger and have fun.


Well, one presumed lil' Johnny isn't a veteran player, being lil'. On the other hand I started playing Eldar when I was eight and became very proficient so why not let lil' Johnny decide for himself.


That disclaimer just sounds more like a hint to Mumma & Papa to get l'il Johnny some Sphess Mehreens instead.

Godzooky
26-10-2010, 11:38
Well, one presumed lil' Johnny isn't a veteran player, being lil'. On the other hand I started playing Eldar when I was eight and became very proficient so why not let lil' Johnny decide for himself.

I didn't wish to cast doubt over fictional l'il Johnny's ability as a general. My point was mainly about GW's business model of flogging the comprehensive plastic space marine range to the less initiated, tactically and hobby-wise.

DE are viewed as more of a choice for the tactically deft model connoisseur, IMHO.

Lucifer216
26-10-2010, 12:26
It might also have something to do with the fact that the DE miniature range is a bit less robust than the space marines. Spindly vehicles with easily snappable features and thinner infantry with blades versus shoe-box tanks and nigh-high indestructible marines (Hur!).

Grimtuff
26-10-2010, 12:39
I'm amazed how quickly this has turned into a SM bashing thread. :rolleyes:

Yes, SMs have a lower learning curve than DE. Big whoop. This does not make SMs any less complex than any other army out there.

Godzooky
26-10-2010, 12:41
I'm amazed how quickly this has turned into a SM bashing thread. :rolleyes:

Yes, SMs have a lower learning curve than DE. Big whoop. This does not make SMs any less complex than any other army out there.

I wasn't bashing space marines. I like them, always have. I liked them as a kid and was making the point most kids these days do, too. That's all.

Grimtuff
26-10-2010, 12:47
I wasn't bashing space marines. I like them, always have. I liked them as a kid and was making the point most kids these days do, too. That's all.

The "Sphess Mehreens" ****** Internet meme says different...

DE are going to hate certain SM's. Wyches, nice and safe in HTH. 1 successful Combat Tactics roll later.... tricksy SMs are out of combat and shooting squishy DE.

Godzooky
26-10-2010, 12:50
The "Sphess Mehreens" ****** Internet meme says different...

If it helps, I typed that line with a loving smile rather than a hateful grimace. :)

Souleater
26-10-2010, 13:31
Don't worry too much about the 'experts only' tag.

In reality it means paying some attention to the battlefield. Think ahead. Use cover and LOS to your advantage.

Make sure there is enough terrain on the board, most importantly. Play, learn from your mistakes and get better just like any other game :) Except for Russian Roulette, of course.

I often see people just charge their army straight at the enemy assuming that numbers, armour or the Blessings of the Dice Goddess will carry the day. Dark Eldar won't do well in that kind of play because they aren't built to work like that.

I wrote a very basic guide (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279592) that might give you some pointers.

Shamana
26-10-2010, 14:28
I'm not sure how "glass hammer" some of their infantry units will be due to the relative ease of getting Feel no Pain on a lot of things. Their vehicles, sure - but then again, they aren't all that expensive for what they do.

Souleater
26-10-2010, 17:04
Compared to even normal SM a Wrack or Grotesque with FNP isn't that hard IMO.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
26-10-2010, 20:57
I would advise two changes from 'old-school' Dark Eldar philosophy.

1. Ease up on Raider spam. Armies like guard have a lot of S8 templates that will ruin your day. Feeling compelled to chuck everything in a Raider will only help funnel Kill Points to your opponent. Units like Scourge, Reavers, and Hellions are all now much better than they used to be, so the name of the game isn't 'Six Warrior Squads in Raiders' or 'Four Warrior Squads in Raiders and Two 20 Man Squads with Dark Lances' anymore.

As a few other posters have mentioned, terrain is much friendlier these days. However, I would advocate bringing a few pieces of terrain of your own that DO NOT have windows and doors on at least some segments. Most of the Imperial terrain pieces are ideal for sitting troops inside, but they will not block complete line of sight to your transports. A flickerfield (5++) is almost as good as a cover save, but not quite. If you don't rely on the mercy of your opponent's or game store's terrain selection, it can help you make it into combat.

2. Ease up on Dark Lance spam. The abundance of heavy weapons that can be taken on Trueborn and Scourge, and the 18" range on the Blaster help make up for this deficit. Making some Raiders dedicated anti-troop (splinter racks and sticking a disintegrator on the front of the raider) is fine since you will have more options in your Elite and Fast attack to supplement.

The Voidraven bomber, with its S9 lances and bomb, are even better than Dark lances are/used to be, and the additional weapon selections add some versatility.

The Ravager is now much more fragile than it used to be with AV 11 (:cries:), so they're less dependable because they are significantly easier to blow up.

The Cronos is a powerhouse in the Heavy Support section now, because it has so many opportunities to funnel pain tokens to nearby squads. As a monstrous creature it can help alleviate the transport popping problem you might face with fewer Dark Lances; just make sure your army is deployed so that nearby units can plunge in and destroy the squads of enemy troops you leave stranded. A pain token will help increase the resilience of your squads in that terrible moment when your squad is left flat-footed after destroying an enemy unit, and the Cronos is certainly one model (on top of an attached Haemonculus) that can provide it.

Wraithseer
26-10-2010, 21:08
Truly the chronos is the darling of the heavy support slot so far. The ability to hand out pain tokens makes for a useful support, in addition to it's monstrous creature stats. The fighter and bomber are sexy, but I need to crunch the numbers a bit more. I love having an army that I have to really chew on my FA and elite choices, vs the heavy support and elite of other armies.

H.LaFever
26-10-2010, 21:22
they put 'expert only' so kids will want it even more, its a sales ploy.
why would little johnny want the normal box of toy soldiers that all the other kids are getting, when there is a 'special' box of soldiers to be had.
id be surprised if in the future releases werent listed as special, expert, pro, super-pro, elite, uber-elite, and of course, the 'membership only' available miniature line for those in the 'grim future gaming circle'
emperor save us....

aylwong
26-10-2010, 21:33
This is wh40k, in which you have to read a 90+ page rulebook to even play. Anyone in the hobby is an expert, and probably semi-pro.

Welcome back.