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Belerophon709
26-10-2010, 18:06
Apologies if this has been asked before, but the search yielded no results...

If a charge-declaration results in a failed charge, does the charging unit still get the initial "free" wheel to get it in line with the enemy unit, or does it have to count the wheeled distance as part of the failed charge distance?



Bele

Lord_Elric
26-10-2010, 18:17
the wheel isnt free so its always counted against the move distance

H33D
26-10-2010, 19:04
Yeah if you fail a charge you would have to do this i belive:

-Determine the shortest route towards the enemy you are charging
-Move your unit along that route, wheeling around impassible terrain or units when needed.
-Move a total number of inches equal to the highest die you rolled for charge distance.
-You may wheel any number of times during a failed charge as long as you follow the above rules that are also found on page 19 of the BRB as it isn't a charge anymore so you aren't limited to 1 wheel.

Eta
26-10-2010, 19:06
the wheel isnt free so its always counted against the move distance

The wheel is free, read the second paragraph on page 20 in the BRB.

@OP: I guess that it would be free, but I cannot back it up with a reference.

Greetings
Eta

Pacorko
26-10-2010, 19:19
Your charging unit does get a free wheel to align itself with the intended target, Lord_Elric. Or so I read last night.

It's in the rules. I believe. It was late, but I'm almost sure I [re]read it right there.

stripsteak
26-10-2010, 19:57
H33D has it right

Eltharil
26-10-2010, 20:08
Yeah if you fail a charge you would have to do this i belive:

-Determine the shortest route towards the enemy you are charging
-Move your unit along that route, wheeling around impassible terrain or units when needed.
-Move a total number of inches equal to the highest die you rolled for charge distance.
-You may wheel any number of times during a failed charge as long as you follow the above rules that are also found on page 19 of the BRB as it isn't a charge anymore so you aren't limited to 1 wheel.

Page 19: "A unit that makes a failed charge moves directly towards its target a number of inches equal to the highest dice rolled for the charge".

I read it as failed charge move got the same rules than successful charge move, except the shorter distance. I don't see how a failed charge could'nt be a charge. Limitation to 1 wheel should apply.

Lord Inquisitor
26-10-2010, 20:17
Hmmm, good question.

Up till now, I've assumed that the wheel is counted against the movement. I think H33D is right.

There's absolutely nothing that says you get a free wheel when charging. The reason we think about it that way is because there's unlimited movement when charging, but there's nothing to say you don't count wheels as normal.

So the move from a failed charge counts the wheel as normal.

One very minor point, I don't think you'd ever get a situation where you'd wheel more than once for a failed charge, because if you couldn't make the charge without making more than one wheel, you wouldn't be able to charge in the first place. But that's a nit-pick, given that you're moving a maximum of 6" it's really not going to matter that much.

Palatine Katinka
26-10-2010, 20:18
As I read it the wheel is not free. At least, no more free than the rest of the charge move as the "charging unit can move an unlimited amount" So, I agree with H33D's account.

Bizarrely, I now notice, you only have to move by the shortest route if the charge is failed. If the charge is going to be successful the unit can go as far as you want it to as long as the maximum number of models reach combat and the unit only wheels once during the move and again at the end of the move to "close the door".

So... A bit off topic but is this right?

A=Assassin, B=Battle Standard and R=rank 'n' file trooper

RR--------A
RR
RR
RR
RR
RR
RR
RR
RB
RR

The dotted line is the distance you measure to see if you are in charge range but the assassin can still move to directly in front of the Battle Standard as long as nothing is in the way to prevent him getting there in a straight line.

Eltharil
26-10-2010, 20:27
Hmmm, good question.

Up till now, I've assumed that the wheel is counted against the movement. I think H33D is right.

There's absolutely nothing that says you get a free wheel when charging. The reason we think about it that way is because there's unlimited movement when charging, but there's nothing to say you don't count wheels as normal.

So the move from a failed charge counts the wheel as normal.

One very minor point, I don't think you'd ever get a situation where you'd wheel more than once for a failed charge, because if you couldn't make the charge without making more than one wheel, you wouldn't be able to charge in the first place. But that's a nit-pick, given that you're moving a maximum of 6" it's really not going to matter that much.

Good point about unlimited move for successful charge. In that case, wheel isn't free but cost a part of an unlimited move: it is free like but not free.
With this in mind, a failed charge has a limited move. The wheel will be a part of that limited move and can't be free. Sounds clear and logic to me.

Lord_Elric
26-10-2010, 21:15
Good point about unlimited move for successful charge. In that case, wheel isn't free but cost a part of an unlimited move: it is free like but not free.
With this in mind, a failed charge has a limited move. The wheel will be a part of that limited move and can't be free. Sounds clear and logic to me.

They dont get to wheel for free atall they get an unlimited move to charge the enemy BECAUSE youve already established that your within charge range youd still have to measure the wheel when working out wether the unit is in range infact within range of charging

Palatine Katinka
26-10-2010, 22:58
Measuring charge range says nothing about measuring distance that would be moved, rather it is just the distance between the two units. As I read it, M+2D6 just has to beat the distance between the two closest models. Once that has been established the unit can "move an unlimited amount".

Grimskarr
27-10-2010, 03:25
I STRONGLY disagree with the above.

The wheel for a failed charge IS free.

A failed charge is still a charge. It is not regular movement that happens in the Remaining Movement phase; it is movement that happens in the Charge phase. Even the wording "failed charge" clearly identifies it as a charge movement.

Therefore the rule stated on page 14 in the Wheel section applies not only to successful charges but also to failed charges:


"You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, wheels are measured as follows: ...."

Even the wording indicates that wheeling is only measured in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

(The only beef I have with the wording is the words "need to"; it makes it sound like it's an option. However, a player doesn't get it both ways. If you get the benefit of not measuring a wheel on the successful charge then you get the curse of being pulled out of position for a failed charge).

This interpretation also goes hand-in-hand with the rule on page 19 that calls for "A unit that makes a failed charge moves directly towards its target a number of inches equal to the highest dice rolled for the charge."

When I read this rule (the one on page 14), I was very pleased. One of the beefs that I had with the new charging rules up until then was that there was very little consequences to a unit that failed a charge. The most that it would be pulled out of position was 6" and most of that could be eaten up in a wheel (consider how much movement a wheel for a horde uses). However, now with this rule a failed charge really has the potential to hang a unit out in no-mans-land.

mishari26
27-10-2010, 04:54
umm.. first of all, calm down with the BIG TEXT plz :)

I don't think the p.14 text is a blanket for ALL charges. as the detailed descriptions of successful and failed charges are discussed later.

I totally agree with H33D, because p.20 is only talking about "Successful" charges. not failed charges. Also if you look at the picture on p.19 about the Chaos Warriors and the Goblins, it sort of shows that the wheel is being counted as part of the 5 inches which the Chaos Warriors are going to move. as the rightmost warrior isn't displaced enough to show 5" worth of movement. giving an indication (a vague one I agree) that the wheel was counted.

Failed charges have nothing to do with "free wheels" and "unlimited movement" which are only talked about on p.20 for successful charges. all it says on p.19 is to "move directly towards the enemy unit", and trying to "avoid obstacles" while doing it. so you take the shortest route.

So when they say "move directly", we simply follow the normal movement rules on p.13-14. but we have a specific path we must follow, and I assume we have to aim at the center of the enemy unit? (or does the BRB define somewhere what "directly" means?)

Grimskarr
27-10-2010, 05:28
A failed charge is still a charge. This has been resolved in DD Questions - Movement - Failed Charge (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280086) thread.

Key points:
1) p. 15: "Each unit will normally only be allowed to act in one sub-phase..."
2) p. 18, last paragraph: "Work through the charges one at a time ... resolving the resultant successful or failed charge ..." Charge is a sub-phase. Failed charges fall in this sub-phase.
3) p. 14: "You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Movement sub-phase, wheels are measured as follows:" Wheels are measured in the Remaining Movement sub-phase; failed charges are not in this sub-phase.

As to the diagram on p. 20 it only thing it proves is that a unit must wheel if that is what it takes to move directly towards its target. There are no numbers beside either arrow and no where is the diagram said to be drawn to scale.

Please don't rebut this post until you've read the thread I just referenced. It is not a long thread and the relevant posts are near the end and very well argued.

H33D
27-10-2010, 06:05
A failed charge is still a 'charge' but not a 'successful charge' as these are two different things. A failed charge symbolizes your unit rushing forward to meet the enemy and then saying either, "Crap we are WAY to slow to be able to catch up to those guys anytime soon. Let's rethink this...", or, "Dangit! They're running the opposite direction, this isn't going to work!!!" and in either case the unit loses impetus and just moves a few inches before giving up and tearing at their flesh in despair. Well, thats what I think it symbolizes.

Anyway, you charge and then stop before you meet the enemy. What this means is since you weren't successful you don't move in any special way other than written on page 19.

Successful Charges (And ONLY Successful Charges) move according to the rules on page 20 which includes the one free wheel up to 90 degrees, an unlimited move, etc.

You would have to follow the rules for normal movement when moving a failed charge as there is nothing saying you would follow different rules.

If GW has to say 'movement during a failed charge is normal movement' then they really have to hold your hand for you to play this game. So no free wheel. Meh :S

Grimskarr
27-10-2010, 07:09
You would have to follow the rules for normal movement when moving a failed charge as there is nothing saying you would follow different rules.
You are ignoring the rule on page 14 that I've quoted twice.

The problem is that 7th edition thinking is still lingering. Let me state it another way that that will make it clearer:

You only ever measure a wheel when resolving movement during the Remaining Movement sub-phase. All other sub-phases are exempt from measuring wheels.
This is exactly what the rules says.

Since failed charges are resolved in the Charge sub-phase (p.18) you do not measure the wheel.

EDIT: Checked the Compulsory Moves sub-phase and there is a line in the the last paragraph that does allow for the potential of needing to measure a wheel. However, keep in mind that it is unusual to have 'normal' movement in this phase - most movement will either be fleeing or have special rules attached.

solkan
27-10-2010, 08:29
Grimskarr, the text that you're quoting is useless because it says "You don't need to measure the distance..." Note that it doesn't say NOT TO measure the distance, or that the measurement can't be used. So it's charger's option to measure?

I make a failed charge and decide that I want to measure the wheel, as shown in the diagram on page 19. The next failed charge, I decide not to measure the wheel.

Shouldn't there be a rule stating that I have to move one way or the other? :confused:

Grimskarr
28-10-2010, 06:23
I've already answered this objection in my first post:

(The only beef I have with the wording is the words "need to"; it makes it sound like it's an option. However, a player doesn't get it both ways. If you get the benefit of not measuring a wheel on the successful charge then you get the curse of being pulled out of position for a failed charge).
Good luck at convincing an opponent that you'll measure or not measure a wheel at your convenience.

I really fail to understand why anyone would want to oppose this reading of the rules. Don't you find it strange that in 8th charges have have improved across the board but the penalty for a failed charge has actually been reduced? If you hold to the view that failed charges need to measure the wheel then you'll find that most, and likely all, of the failed charge will be eaten up in the wheel. It becomes extremely difficult to pull units out of position with just a roll of D6.

However, if the wheel is not measured then you'll find that a failed charge can be really bad - as it should be. Suddenly the game is dynamic, tense, and full of potential. You really need to weigh the risks at trying for that unlikely Hail-Mary of a charge at 14" vs. leaving your unit out to dry.

And just to be clear: a failed charge is still a charge, both from the rules and fluff. From the fluff, the unit starts off with a flourish and a sprint to engage. Some of these starts are successful and some are not. From the rules:

"Work through the charges one at a time, in any order decided by the player whose turn it is , calculating the charge distance for each and resolving the resultant successful or failed charge before moving on to the next unit." (last paragraph, p.18)
And charges do not measure the wheel (p.14).

jaxom
28-10-2010, 20:50
Interesting argument, Grim.

Please explain to me how to interpret this sentence from p. 19.


If a unit makes a failed charge it moves directly toward the target a distance equal to the highest score rolled on the 2D6 of the charge roll, wheeling around impassable terrain and units, both friends and enemies, by the shortest route.

If we're going to not measure wheels, then what is the shortest route and why does it matter? The rules as you propose them would mean wheeling, measuring the distance straight forward and then moving by any route possible to get to that point on the table. The word shortest in that sentence can have no meaning unless you are measuring. Or do you intend to hold this charging unit to one wheel of up to 90 degrees?

Grimskarr
29-10-2010, 04:34
Jaxom, this is a good point that you've brought up.

Here is what I understand the rule on p.19 to be saying in regards to a failed charge:

1. You don't just move your unit directly forward D6". You must move to face the unit you were attempting to charge.
2. Your unit's movement must make sense - avoid intervening obstacles (impassable terrain, other units).
3. Your unit must move in the the shortest possible path. No finagling the movement so that doesn't get in the way of other declared charges or movement in the Remaining Moves sup-phase.
4. Your unit must still wheel to face it's target - it is not allowed to slide or shift sideways to avoid an obstacle.

Remember that on p.18 the rules say to resolve each charge completely before moving onto the next charge. Because of this it may happen that a player who has declared multiple charges suddenly finds that a unit's failed charge movement is blocking the path for his other units (eg. a gap that the first unit was to have cleared on a successful charge is now filled).

I've already shown that a failed charge is still a charge so this would mean that it would only be allowed a single wheel of up to 90 degrees. This wheel does not need to take place at the beginning of its failed charge movement but must take place at the point that would keep the unit on the shortest path available towards its intended target.

Keep in mind as you mull over my arguments that you cannot point to anything in the rules that directly says wheels must be measured in anything but the Remaining Moves sub-phase which is the phase dealing with normal movement (summary box on p.15 connects the phrase 'normal movement' with the Remaining Moves sub-phase).

H33D
29-10-2010, 05:51
only successful charges are limited to a single wheel. failed charges are normal movement with different restrictions on distance and direction.

jaxom
29-10-2010, 17:30
only successful charges are limited to a single wheel. failed charges are normal movement with different restrictions on distance and direction.

I'd love to agree with this, H33D. Problem is I can't find it in the 8th Ed. BRB. It's a great claim if you can cite a page number though.

Regarding the failed charge movement. The problem I have is that if we accept (and I can't find anything written to deny it) that a failed charge is still a charge and so you have one 90 degree wheel available but you still have to satisfy the requirements on page 19 to wheel around intervening garbage and move X" toward the target unit then we're going to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what is the "shortest path". Everything I have seen about 8th Edition has been about making movement simple. Seems counterintuitive to me.

Lord Inquisitor
29-10-2010, 17:43
It's not clear really. Despite my earlier assertion, I think I'm inclined to agree with H33D, what is says is "wheeling around immpassable terrain and units, both friends and enemies, by the shortest route." That could refer to a single wheel but it seems to me to suggest as many wheels as necessary. Again, if you're declaring the charge, it should be doable with only a single wheel, it'll be a very, very specific situation that would result in multiple wheels being necessary at all.

Grimskarr, you have an excellent, excellent point about the bit of text "You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Moves..." Hmm.

I honestly don't know. There's nothing in the charge rules that suggests that the wheel is "free" and yeah, with the wheel being counted units really don't get to move very far on a failed charge. That's true and exactly how I and everyone I've met at tournaments has been playing it. I'm not sure whether the text above is meant to refer to failed charges - it seems like a reminder rather than a rule - and I would have expected the failed charge rules to mention that the units wheel for free if that were the case. Still, the RAW does seem to suggest that wheels are not measured outside of the remaining moves sub-phase.

So I'll concede that you have a point as per RAW, Grimskarr and I think you have a valid way of playing. That said, it looks to me like a byproduct of sloppy wording of a reminder in the wheel rules and I suspect most players will continue to measure wheeling for failed charges.

jaxom
29-10-2010, 18:50
I agree that it would be interesting to find a solid wording that supported Grim and didn't result in something really messy when it came to actually moving around terrain and units.

I don't see our group moving to your interpretation, Grim, but I agree it seems to be the correct reading and it does leave units more hung out than the way folks seem to be playing it.

solkan
30-10-2010, 03:43
I apologize for coming back late to this, but I continue to be confused by Grimskarr's position concerning page 14.

"You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, ..." establishes that such measurement is optional because that's what "You don't need to..." means. If a failed charge is moved as a charge, then the measurement of wheeling during a failed charge is optional, according to page 14.

Pages 13, 14, and 19 are the only pages that have any rules that could possibly apply to the movement of a failed charge. The rules starting on page 20 clearly state that they apply to successful charges, and after that the rules start addressing other segments of the movement phase.

That leaves arguing RAI that you, a player, "don't" measure the wheel when the text simply says that you, a player, "don't need to". And leads directly to page 19, which shows a 5" failed charge composed of a wheel followed by forward movement that's no where close to 5".

So the only two convincing things that can be done with page 14 are either to ignore it, or to argue that measuring the wheel movement is optional. No other position is consistent with page 19.

Grimskarr
30-10-2010, 22:59
only successful charges are limited to a single wheel. failed charges are normal movement with different restrictions on distance and direction.

With respect, H33D, I'm going to challenge your statement.

Where can you show that a failed charge is a 'normal move'? You've made a bold statement, but where is your reasoning, or even better, your evidence to back it up? I assert that you cannot find any definitive evidence in the movement rules to prove a failed charge is a 'normal move'.

The reason people are struggling with the new concept that failed charges don't measure their wheel is because in the old rule set they did. If you purpose to set aside your previous expectations and just read the 8th rules as written it becomes pretty clear.

So to review the evidence supporting my position:

1. P.14, Wheeling is only called to be measured during the Remaining Moves sub-phase.
2. P.15, In the summary box the Remaining Moves sub-phase is shown to be the same thing as 'normal moves' (Remaining Moves = Normal Moves).
3. p.18, Each charge is resolved one at a time determining if it was successful or failed (Failed Charge is a Charge).
4. p.18-19, Failed Charges are resolved in the Charge sub-phase (Failed Charge IS a Charge. A Charge is NOT a Remaining Move. A Remaining Move IS a Normal Move. Hence a Charge is NOT a Normal Move. A Failed Charge is NOT a Normal Move.)

In fact no where will you find the words 'normal move' and 'failed charge' linked as equivalent. I've read and re-read the movement section and so have others (ie. Jaxom) and it just is not there.

So because measuring wheels only happens in the Remaining Moves sub-phase (p.14) or for normal moves, failed charges do not measure the wheel.

And by the way, what defines a 'normal move'? A normal move is limited to the Movement value of the unit, or 2xMovement if it marches, a reform, move backwards, or move sideways. A failed charge is none of these. It's movement is a D6.

Grimskarr
30-10-2010, 23:00
It's not clear really. Despite my earlier assertion, I think I'm inclined to agree with H33D, what is says is "wheeling around impassable terrain and units, both friends and enemies, by the shortest route." That could refer to a single wheel but it seems to me to suggest as many wheels as necessary. Again, if you're declaring the charge, it should be doable with only a single wheel, it'll be a very, very specific situation that would result in multiple wheels being necessary at all.
LI, You've answered your own objection to the world 'wheeling'. 'Wheeling' can refer to one turn or multiple turns. The actual process on making a wheel is called wheeling.

Maybe an example will help. A soldier notices that an enemy unit is making a single wheel to position itself to charge his unit. He calls out a warning: "Sir, on the left! They're wheeling to charge!"

It is a bit unfortunate that the language used wasn't more specific (ie. "making a single wheel around impassable terrain and units, ...") but the word 'wheeling' is still consistent with my argument.

And I completely agree with you that when a charge is declared it must be doable with a single wheel. And if that is the case, then we both agree that 99% of the time a failed charge will only need to make a single wheel. In fact if it were required to make a second wheel for some odd reason, I would argue that the unit stop at that point and is unable to use the rest of its failed charge movement - just like multiple failed pursuits on p. 61.


I honestly don't know. There's nothing in the charge rules that suggests that the wheel is "free" and yeah, with the wheel being counted units really don't get to move very far on a failed charge.
I've established that a 'failed charge' is a charge. The rules for moving charges do make it clear that the wheel is free even though they don't use that exact wording. P.20 says that a successful charge can move an unlimited amount. It also says that a successful charge is only allowed a single wheel of up to 90 degrees. Put these two statements together and its clear that the wheel is free.

Also p.14 specifically says that a charging unit doesn't need to measure its wheel. These are two separate locations in the rules that consistently show that charges don't measure wheels.


That's true and exactly how I and everyone I've met at tournaments has been playing it.
Is it possible that many people are still measuring wheels for failed charges simply because they haven't yet completely broken away from 7th in their mind and that Mat Ward simply failed to write the exact sentence "don't measure the wheel on a failed charge"?


So I'll concede that you have a point as per RAW, Grimskarr and I think you have a valid way of playing. That said, it looks to me like a byproduct of sloppy wording of a reminder in the wheel rules and I suspect most players will continue to measure wheeling for failed charges.
So if my interpretation is RAW does that not also make it the strongest candidate for RAI as well? My argument is consistent and is supported from multiple locations in the rules while the same cannot be said of the view that failed charges are to measure the wheel. And it's not like my argument is nonsensical as in the case of "my unit get to test on my dwarf general's initiative for the Purple Sun of Xerxes" argument.

And why wouldn't you want to play Warhammer with this interpretation? The game is better with this way.

Grimskarr
30-10-2010, 23:03
Jaxom, I understand your uncertainty as to how to handle the paragraph at the end of p.19 in regards to my position.

I think your struggle is mostly with the phrase "by the shortest route." Some people will react to this wording and ask themselves "How do I know what the shortest route is unless I measure it?" And to be absolutely sure that is what you'd have to do.

However, it is easy for us to just see what a shortest route is. For example if your heading to you friend's house by the shortest route route you may need to go down the street, turn at the corner and go 2 blocks. However, that is not the shortest route. The shortest route is as the crow flies. However, you're not a crow so the path I described does meet the criteria of 'shortest route' - for you.

This is the same for a unit in Warhammer and why a unit must take the most direct path (shortest route) available towards its target while still avoiding intervening obstacles.

Hopefully the examples below will clarify things (I apologize for the quality of the drawings but its the best I could do with Paint).

Image 1 shows the orange unit attempting to charge the green unit. The orange unit fails its charge and must move as directly as possible (shortest route (centre-to-centre) - as indicated by the red line) towards its target as in Figure 1. Figure 2 shows an incorrect failed charge movement where the orange unit has failed to take the shortest route. No one needs to measure to recognize that Figure 2 is not the shortest route. This is important as I'll show in the next image.

<EDIT: AMWOOD co has pointed out that Image 2 is a flawed example. I've decided to leave it in place so that others can see just what he is referring to in his post below. In my response to his points I have posted a replacement example for Image 2 which still conveys the importance of moving failed charges by the "shortest route".>

Image 2 shows the exact same scenario except that now both the orange and the purple unit have declare charges on the green unit. Orange rolls first and fails. If it moves correctly as in Figure 3, it will partial block purple's route and limiting the number of models that will be in BSB contact. You can see the drastic difference if this is done incorrectly as in Figure 4.

These two images demonstrate what is meant by the 'shortest route' and in both images it is clear without needing to measure just what that route is.

Image 3 deals with a failed charge that needs to move along the shortest route available and wheel around impassable terrain.
Figure 1 shows the orange unit's intended charge path. For this example orange will be a unit of Dwarf Warriors. Orange is 10" away and fails its charge roll with a roll of 5 & 1. It must now move 5" directly towards (shortest route) the green unit.
Figure 2 shows this being down correctly. Orange wheels (since this is still a charge - just a failed one) for free - but not beyond 90 degrees - in order to avoid the rocks and moves directly towards the green unit by 5".
Figure 3 shows an absolutely wrong way to move the orange unit. Yes, orange is now directly across from the green unit but it has not even attempted to avoid the rocks. In addition he is completely safe from green declaring a counter-charge.
Figure 4 shows another wrong movement resolution. In it orange as taken the most direct path (the red line) towards the green unit but it has failed avoid the rocks. Again the result is that it will be safe from a counter-charge.
Figure 5 shows orange as to where it would end up if the wheel is actually measured. As you can see the Dwarf unit (orange) really has not lost a whole lot since he has hardly moved and again he is safe from a counter-charge.

I think these diagrams show clearly what is meant on p.19 by moving a failed charge along the shortest route while wheeling to avoid obstacles. In all the examples people can see by just looking what the shortest, valid route is. It is not cumbersome and it does keep movement simple.

Grimskarr
30-10-2010, 23:04
So I want to address this objection since it came up on page 1:


"Failed charges are not like successful charges. Successful charges have unlimited movement within their established charge range. Failed charges are limited, therefore they don't get a free wheel."

Yes, it is correct that failed charges are limited. However, the limit they are restricted to is the distance of the highest D6. Also that they must take the most direct path available towards their target. That's all. No statement saying that the wheel is limited.

Palatine Katinka
30-10-2010, 23:26
Unless the restricted distance of the highest D6 applies to all movement made, wheels and forward movement combined.

As I see it, charges don't get a 'free' wheel. They get a wheel that you 'don't need to measure'. Why don't you need to measure it? You don't need to because you don't need to measure any of the movement made during a successful charge.

Grimskarr
30-10-2010, 23:47
But what do you do with p.14 where the rules say that the only time you need to measure a wheel is during the Remaining Moves sub-phase?

It can't be that hard to grasp this. The only reason anyone is still holding onto "we measure the wheel in a failed charge" is because of 7th edition. If you were a absolute Newb to Warhammer and 8th was all you'd ever read you'd wouldn't even think to measure wheels during a failed charge. Why? Because p.14 is very explicit as to which phase requires the measuring of a wheel. And the fact of the matter is this is the only place in the rulebook where wheels are ever said to need any kind of measuring.

The only logical conclusion is that since a Failed Charge is a Charge (already established at length) then it doesn't need to measure its wheel - the wheel is effectively free. And this is what p.14 says.

Grimskarr
31-10-2010, 00:34
I apologize for coming back late to this, but I continue to be confused by Grimskarr's position concerning page 14.

"You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, ..." establishes that such measurement is optional because that's what "You don't need to..." means. If a failed charge is moved as a charge, then the measurement of wheeling during a failed charge is optional, according to page 14.
Yes, solkan, this poorly chosen phrase, "You don't need to ...", is a bit of a fly in the ointment. You can read this phrase to mean that you have the option. However, sometimes that phrase is used to mean "these requirements do not apply".

The problem I see with "To Measure, or Not to Measure - That is the Question" :) is that it allows for players to abuse the rule. They are not bound to be consistent. Consider the images in my above post. It's clear that a player can 1) avoid a very tenuous position if he chooses to measure one time and 2) can vastly advance his position a second time by not measuring. My earlier challenge to you still stands: Try convincing an opponent that you'll measure or not measure a wheel at your convenience. Nobody is going to stand for that.

Therefore since the rest of the sentence is crystal clear when it says that you only need to measure wheels during the Remaining Moves sub-phase the only consistent conclusion is that there really is no option as to measure or not measure in the Charge sub-phase. You just don't measure.

No where will anyone find a rule saying that you must measure a failed charge's wheel. And this is the dilemma that faces everyone who is inclined to disagree with me.

And answer me this. Why would you want me to be wrong? Wouldn't you rather play Warhammer with failed charges that don't measure their wheels? How would this take away from the game? Would it not enhance it?


Pages 13, 14, and 19 are the only pages that have any rules that could possibly apply to the movement of a failed charge. The rules starting on page 20 clearly state that they apply to successful charges, and after that the rules start addressing other segments of the movement phase.
This is true. Where do the rules say that you measure the wheel of a failed charge?


That leaves arguing RAI that you, a player, "don't" measure the wheel when the text simply says that you, a player, "don't need to". And leads directly to page 19, which shows a 5" failed charge composed of a wheel followed by forward movement that's no where close to 5".
First of all there is nothing in that diagram that says it is to scale. In fact it clearly is not to scale (just ratio it out if you want). What that the diagram does prove is two things:

1. You must wheel in a Failed Charge.
2. That a Failed Charge IS a Charge. It says so right on the diagram behind the Chaos Warriors.
And (do I really have to say it again?) p.14 makes it clear that you don't measure the wheel in a charge. P.20 also supports this interpretation in that another form of charging - the successful charge - doesn't measure its wheel either.


So the only two convincing things that can be done with page 14 are either to ignore it, or to argue that measuring the wheel movement is optional. No other position is consistent with page 19.
The only thing I'm choosing to ignore is the implication brought on by the phrase "You don't need to ...". It is completely nonsensical that an option of 'to-measure-or-not-to-measure' would exist and is inconsistent with everything else. I'm saying that the only reasonable interpretation is that this option does NOT exist and that no measuring takes place.

AMWOOD co
31-10-2010, 04:24
The only problem I see with the idea of not needing to measure the wheel comes from your third picture. In the example with the rock, it can become possible for the wheels required to make the charge successful would be so great as to make it so that there is only a few inches of forward movement. Thus, by free wheeling, my failed charge will result in me having to suddenly stop moving before I completed my 'failed' charge due to the 1" rule.

As a house rule, measuring all wheels is not a problem, as that is simply how things were done in 7th. A failed charge would act the same as it did then. Whether it is RAW comes into effect when one asks the question "Have I moved only the distance of the highest D6 or more?" After all, it doesn't say 'move forward'. It seems that limit of the charge move actually comes at odds with p13; a unit still moves whether you measure it or not.

Also, your issue with multiple chargers is flawed. Check the parentheses at the end of p18 and then page 23.

Grimskarr
31-10-2010, 07:32
The only problem I see with the idea of not needing to measure the wheel comes from your third picture. In the example with the rock, it can become possible for the wheels required to make the charge successful would be so great as to make it so that there is only a few inches of forward movement. Thus, by free wheeling, my failed charge will result in me having to suddenly stop moving before I completed my 'failed' charge due to the 1" rule.
If you look again at Figure 3 (on Image 3) you'll notice that the orange unit did make it's full D6" failed charge move (I made sure all the grey arrows along the right hand side of the orange unit were the same length to represent the D6" rolled). It's just that it wheeled at the very end of moving forward stopping an 1" away from the rock (at least that's what I intended the picture to represent). Still it's kind of a moot observation since the picture was intended to be showing something that was incorrect anyways.

However I agree with you that there is is a possibility that a unit may not be able to use all of it's D6" failed charge (though I'm not able to think of an example at the moment). This would be quite uncommon, however. And were it to happen then it may be impossible for the unit to move the full D6" rolled. But we're not really looking for the unusual circumstances since we are talking about something (ie. how to handle the wheel of a failed charge) that will happen in just about every single game played.

The goal of my illustrations was to give people an idea of how the rule on p.19 would play out in regards to not needing to measure the wheel.


As a house rule, measuring all wheels is not a problem, as that is simply how things were done in 7th. A failed charge would act the same as it did then. Whether it is RAW comes into effect when one asks the question "Have I moved only the distance of the highest D6 or more?" After all, it doesn't say 'move forward'. It seems that limit of the charge move actually comes at odds with p13; a unit still moves whether you measure it or not.
I really don't understand why 7th edition is continually being referenced as why we must measure the wheel of a failed charge. This is 8th edition. And it isn't like there aren't enough clearly stated rules that we can't figure this out (I really don't want list all the relevant pages again - see above).

<This next paragraph isn't personally directed at you, AMWOOD co, but is just a general venting.>

And I really still don't understand why people in general are reticent to adopt this point-of-view. No one yet has even hinted at why it would make their games less enjoyable. All I'm hearing is that this is the way it was and so it must this be this way. But p.14 says only in the Remaining Moves sub-phase do wheels need to be measured. How hard is this to comprehend?

Also, your issue with multiple chargers is flawed. Check the parentheses at the end of p18 and then page 23.
Ah-ha!! Now this is what I was waiting for. Good catch, AMWOOD co. I realized after I'd finished my drawings that I didn't quite have Image 2 correct because multiple charging units on a target are rolled simultaneously and THEN the chargers are moved. This means the purple unit would have been moved first and not have been obstructed by the orange one. However, the drawings had taken some time to finish and I felt that Image 2 still managed to convey somewhat what I was trying to get across about the importance of moving a failed charge by the shortest route. And I figured I'd wait and see who would catch my mistake and deal with it then.

I've made a replacement illustration for the flawed one above. In this scenario the orange unit is still attempting to charge the green unit and now the purple unit is attempting to charge the blue unit (the purple unit just has line of sight around the rocks). The orange unit rolls for its charge first but fails.
Figure 3 shows how the orange unit must be moved by the shortest route towards the green unit in keeping with the rules of p.19. Unfortunately this has now made purple's charge impossible to complete as orange is obstructing its path.
Figure 4 shows what happens if the orange unit is moved incorrectly. The orange unit's player has illegally finagled his failed charge movement for orange in order to save the possibility of his declared charge for purple.

This is an example what p.19 is referring to as the need to move failed charges by the "shortest route". As you can see it can be an important detail.

Palatine Katinka
31-10-2010, 09:16
Please stop saying "p.14 says only in the Remaining Moves sub-phase do wheels need to be measured." It actually says "You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, wheels are measured as follows:" Subtle but the difference is there. It doesn't say that wheels are only measured in Remaining Moves, it just doesn't tell us specifically how to measure it at any other time.

The following about measuring wheels even goes on to say "A unit that is not charging can wheel several times during its move..." discussing charging units in a section that has nothing to do with them as it's about Remaining Moves. Comes across as a badly written part of the rules with vast assumptions being made and situations being overlooked. I wouldn't be surprised if that page got an errata to change "during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, " to "during other moves,".

However, until such a time as an errata clears this up, wheeling to allign for free and then moving straight forward the highest D6 does seem to be the most RAW side of this discussion. The unit making the failed charge move would have to be restricted to one wheel of up to 90 degrees though. If it gets a wheel without measuring because it is charging then it is also restricted to one wheel because it is charging.

DeathlessDraich
31-10-2010, 14:04
Apologies if this has been asked before, but the search yielded no results...

If a charge-declaration results in a failed charge, does the charging unit still get the initial "free" wheel to get it in line with the enemy unit, or does it have to count the wheeled distance as part of the failed charge distance?

Bele



There's absolutely nothing that says you get a free wheel when charging. The reason we think about it that way is because there's unlimited movement when charging, but there's nothing to say you don't count wheels as normal.

So the move from a failed charge counts the wheel as normal. .


However, until such a time as an errata clears this up, wheeling to allign for free and then moving straight forward the highest D6 does seem to be the most RAW side of this discussion. The unit making the failed charge move would have to be restricted to one wheel of up to 90 degrees though. If it gets a wheel without measuring because it is charging then it is also restricted to one wheel because it is charging.

Apologies, Didn't have time to read the whole thread in detail.

This is related to a previous question.
Using the thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280086. ), this question has a solution :)

Firstly, using the conclusions of the thread above,
A) The word charge whenever it appears in the rules also encompasses a Failed charge.
pg 18 - last 2 paragraphs provides rules confirmation
This is a necessary conclusion otherwise a unit can move after a failed charge
- pg 26 Moving your units - "units that did not charge can move" . This must include Failed charges and is confirmed by pg 18.

Next
B) pg 14 - "You don't need to measure the distance moved by a charging unit but during Remaining Moves wheels are measured"

Again the phrase "a charging unit" must encompass a unit that suffers a Failed charge.
Not making this inclusion wrecks/challenges the argument in (A) above

Therefore a Failed charge must abide by rule (B) above.

i.e. A Failed charge also gains a free wheel.

Grimskarr
31-10-2010, 18:16
DeathlessDraich, thanks for posting the link to this thread again. I'd posted it on the first page of this thread, but it's easy for people to miss it.

I was already of the mind to think that failed charges did not measure their wheel from my own reading of the rules but when I read the posts on the thread you had started I was convinced. I really appreciated how the thoughts shared on that thread came to a solid conclusion.

Grimskarr
31-10-2010, 18:26
Please stop saying "p.14 says only in the Remaining Moves sub-phase do wheels need to be measured." It actually says "You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, wheels are measured as follows:" Subtle but the difference is there. It doesn't say that wheels are only measured in Remaining Moves, it just doesn't tell us specifically how to measure it at any other time.
Fair enough. The only definitive conclusion from p.14 is that measuring wheels does happen in the Remaining Moves sub-phase and that Charges don't need to measure wheels.


The following about measuring wheels even goes on to say "A unit that is not charging can wheel several times during its move..." discussing charging units in a section that has nothing to do with them as it's about Remaining Moves. Comes across as a badly written part of the rules with vast assumptions being made and situations being overlooked. I wouldn't be surprised if that page got an errata to change "during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, " to "during other moves,".
An errata would be good - and I can't predict which way it would go. It could be that the whole movement section is one sloppy mess (unlikely, but ...).


However, until such a time as an errata clears this up, wheeling to align for free and then moving straight forward the highest D6 does seem to be the most RAW side of this discussion. The unit making the failed charge move would have to be restricted to one wheel of up to 90 degrees though. If it gets a wheel without measuring because it is charging then it is also restricted to one wheel because it is charging.
Agreed. Only one wheel, up to a maxim of 90 degrees.

Archangelion
31-10-2010, 18:52
... wow guys. What is so difficult about wheeling towards the unit that you declared a charge agaisnt, and then moving the rolled distance? I mean, the wheel shouldn't even be a 90 degree wheel, as the unit will have to be in the front arc anyways, which is a 45 degree angle. Just pick the center point of both your unit and the target unit, or whatever, wheel towards the target unit (free) and move the number of inches indicated. If the charge was failed you shoud not reach the enemy unit, if somehow, you do, you should leave 1" between the two units.

DeathlessDraich
31-10-2010, 21:46
DeathlessDraich, thanks for posting the link to this thread again. I'd posted it on the first page of this thread, but it's easy for people to miss it.

I was already of the mind to think that failed charges did not measure their wheel from my own reading of the rules but when I read the posts on the thread you had started I was convinced. I really appreciated how the thoughts shared on that thread came to a solid conclusion.

Yes, I should have read your first post more carefully but the main thing is we agree. :)

Grimskarr
31-10-2010, 22:09
... wow guys. What is so difficult about wheeling towards the unit that you declared a charge against, and then moving the rolled distance? I mean, the wheel shouldn't even be a 90 degree wheel, as the unit will have to be in the front arc anyways, which is a 45 degree angle. Just pick the center point of both your unit and the target unit, or whatever, wheel towards the target unit (free) and move the number of inches indicated. If the charge was failed you should not reach the enemy unit, if somehow, you do, you should leave 1" between the two units.
No one is disputing how to handle a 'successful' charge. The confusion has been concerning the question of "do we measure or not measure the wheel on a 'failed' charge?" Do I understand correctly that you feel a 'failed' charge does not measure its wheel?

Concerning charges and wheeling generally you're right. Charges won't wheel more than 45 degrees but a charge with a 90 wheel is not as unlikely as you may think. Consider my image below.

H33D
31-10-2010, 23:52
I'd love to agree with this, H33D. Problem is I can't find it in the 8th Ed. BRB. It's a great claim if you can cite a page number though.

Regarding the failed charge movement. The problem I have is that if we accept (and I can't find anything written to deny it) that a failed charge is still a charge and so you have one 90 degree wheel available but you still have to satisfy the requirements on page 19 to wheel around intervening garbage and move X" toward the target unit then we're going to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what is the "shortest path". Everything I have seen about 8th Edition has been about making movement simple. Seems counterintuitive to me.

I'ts pretty clear seeing as the free charge is only under the 'Move Chargers' rules. Why are you following the rules for a successful charge on a failed charge? You should be following whats under the 'failed charge' rules.

The rules under 'Move Chargers' on page 20 say "If your charge range was sufficient..." etc. Using any rules found in this section afterward for a FAILED charge would be an idiot move IMO.

The rules for a 'Wheel' on page 14 say "You don't need to measure the distance wheeled by a charging unit, but during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, wheels are measured as follows: ..."

So the distinction here should be 'does a unit that failed a charge and is making its failed charge movement count as a 'charging unit' according to the rules for a wheel?' Nowhere in the 'Failed Charge' section does it define the unit as a charging unit. In fact, only under 'Move Chargers' does it define a unit that's charge range was sufficient as a 'charging unit'.

Anyway, as long as the rulebook doesn't say 'you don't need to measure wheels (or the first wheel) for a failed charge' its fairly obvious that you need to.

Grimskarr
01-11-2010, 00:36
We aren't following rules for successful charges per se. We are following rules for charges.

Tell me why do you think that a failed charge should have to measure its wheel? Where are you reading that in the rules?

Archangelion
01-11-2010, 00:37
For the image Grimskarr, I see your point, but my comment was meant as a general statement. If everyone made statements that included every possible variant, posts would be quite lenthy. Anyhow. The image you gave, if the charge were failed, the unit would move in the same manner as it would have if it were charging, but it would only be permited to cover the distance indicated by a failed charge result.

H33D, I do not believe that a unit that is moveing is a charging unit, as it is not technicly charging. But the move is made in the charge section of the movement phase. A charge reaction has been declaired and resolved. For simplicity sake, I would treat the movement of a unit that has delaired a charge and subsequently failed it as though it were still going to move in the exact same manner as it would have if the charge were to have been succesful, the only difference being the distance indicated by a failed charge.

Lord Inquisitor
01-11-2010, 02:42
Deathless Draich and Grimskarr, I think you have RAW nailed. Plus those rather spiffy diagrams make everything rather convincing!

So I'll agree that I can't find any way of getting around p14.

That said, and just to be particularly annoying, I'm still not certain that this is the right way to play. Sure, I'm in RAI territory here, but p14 looks like it's just sloppy wording. There's just nothing in the failed charges rules that suggests the wheel is "free" or that you get a free wheel when moving the failed charge distance. Given that a failed charge is the only time you measure movement when charging, it seems to make sense that it is the only time you measure wheeling.

Still, I'm happy to play it either way. Most of the time what matters is whether it's a failed charge or not! I suspect most people will be unaware of this and continue to measure wheels.

Grimskarr
01-11-2010, 03:54
LI, thanks for honestly evaluating my points.

Yes, p.14 is a bit sloppy. And things would be neater if Mat Ward had directly addressed the wheel in failed charges and whether it needed measurement or not. It is a bit bewildering that the failed charge rules on p.19 say absolutely nothing one way or the other.

Of course if this issue gets addressed in the Errata who knows how be ruled. All my arguments could come down like a house of cards. Still until then I'll play it as RAW and also assume that it is RAI.

Archangelion
01-11-2010, 09:46
It is an interesting point though isn't it. That for charging you don't measure at all, and wheels are free. But when moving at any other point, when measureing you movement distance, you count the wheel as part of that move. It isn't that much of a strech to say that when your movement distance is free, your wheel is free, and when your movement distance is measured, your wheel is measured.

Grimskarr
02-11-2010, 02:42
Yeah, you may have a point there. Keep in mind, though, that there are only TWO other types of movement that use a wheel besides charging and that is a regular move or a march (these two are pretty much the same thing actually - one is just faster than the other) both of which fall in the Remaining Moves sub-phase.

I would mention, too, that there are other kinds of movements were there is a free movement of sorts and still have measuring involved. Consider:

1. Turning to flee.
2. Turning to pursue (ie. p.61).
3. Fleeing onto a unit and 'popping' out the other side (which can mean bouncing through a number of units).
4. Characters that join a friendly unit get a free bump to the front rank.
And then there is the unusual handling of distance when a Stand-and-Shoot reaction is resolved against a charging unit that is actually beyond the missile weapon's range. There can be enough casualties to cause flee reaction meaning that the charging unit flees from an enemy unit even though it never actually entered that unit's missile range.

I only bring these things up to point out that there is some other odd things in the rules regarding the movement of troops.

Not really a great rebuttal to your observation, just some more food for thought.

AMWOOD co
02-11-2010, 03:48
I must admit that I'm with our leader of the Inquisition here, I would rather measure the wheel. Yes, RAW seems to have a hold, and I avoid saying this with any sense of authority, but I think the wording on p14 is simply a typo (they happen, that's why the Errata is so big). The only RAW support is that if you make a big wheel move first and then move forward the D6, your unit has made a move greater than D6" by the measuring methods we use for the rest of the game (turning to flee/pursue is the equivalent of a reform which has no effect as far as distance moved is concerned).

As for my statement at the end of my previous post about needing the 1" rule to keep units apart, it just seems counter intuitive to need to invoke the '1 inch rule' against a unit you cannot reach that turn.

Now, as with so many of the things that are mentioned on these forums, I feel it should be cleared up with an opponent prior to the game. This will avoid controversy. If you can't agree, roll off for that game and talk turkey afterwords. It saves a great deal of trouble. May it all be dealt with on the next FAQ update.

Archangelion
02-11-2010, 10:14
Interestingly enough. The issue with page 14 isn't even the presence of a rule, but an omission of one. It states that you don't need to measure a wheel for a charging unit... a unit that has failed its charge isn't actually charging, so you can't really use that. Nor can you use the statement concerning the remaining moves sub-phase, of which a failed charge is not apart. I think, for now, it will be up to the players to decide, and I would hope that most players would take the common sence (an Merriweather's Theorm) aproach to this issue. Use the less powerful of the two options available, and you will have definatly stayed within the bounds of the rules. Because if it turns out that you are not required to measure the wheel, and you have been, then you have simply not been moveing your units far enough. But if you are required to measure, then you have been moveing your units to far. I would rather play conservitavly myself, and will measure the wheel.

Lord Inquisitor
02-11-2010, 20:39
I'm not sure that's the most conservative from the perspective of the charging unit ... most of the time, if you can't make the charge, you're better off moving as little as possible. A further failed charge move usually means further out of position and higher likelihood of being counter-charged. A larger wheel usually means more exposition of flanks to the enemy.

Grimskarr
02-11-2010, 23:34
I'm not sure that's the most conservative from the perspective of the charging unit ... most of the time, if you can't make the charge, you're better off moving as little as possible. A further failed charge move usually means further out of position and higher likelihood of being counter-charged. A larger wheel usually means more exposition of flanks to the enemy.
Exactly! I don't see 'not measuring the wheel on a failed charge' as gaining an advantage. I actually feel that this kind of movement 90% of the time is a big disadvantage and therefore makes a more dynamic game.


Interestingly enough. The issue with page 14 isn't even the presence of a rule, but an omission of one. It states that you don't need to measure a wheel for a charging unit... a unit that has failed its charge isn't actually charging, so you can't really use that.
So what do you do about the diagram at the bottom of p.19 that shows the Chaos Warriors making a failed charge? It says right on the diagram: "CHARGE!"

Archangelion
03-11-2010, 00:39
And judgeing by that diagram, do you think that the unit of orcs moved 5" forward after their wheel, or 5" with their wheel? (remember that the orc bases are about 1")

Palatine Katinka
03-11-2010, 02:02
So what do you do about the diagram at the bottom of p.19 that shows the Chaos Warriors making a failed charge? It says right on the diagram: "CHARGE!"

It shows that a charge was declared. A charge declaration is followed by a response by the enemy and then either a failed charge move or a successful charge move. In this case a failed charge.


And judgeing by that diagram, do you think that the unit of orcs moved 5" forward after their wheel, or 5" with their wheel? (remember that the orc bases are about 1")

The diagram is obviously out of scale as if we consider the size of the bases as an indicator if distance they would actually have successfully charged.

Grimskarr
03-11-2010, 02:27
A good response, Katinka. By itself the diagram would be insufficient to sway me, too. But taken with all else we've already been through, it's just one more piece of evidence that fortunately (from my point of view :) ) doesn't conflict.

The two biggest things that really cement it for me that a failed charge is a charge is that it happens in the Charge sub-phase and the last paragraph on p.18.

And you're absolutely correct that the diagram is not to scale. If it were, the Chaos Warriors would only be 7" away from the Goblins at the start of their charge and the example clearly states they're 11".

@Archangelion: All the diagram shows me is the path that the unit must take if it failed the charge. Wheel to face and then advance. It doesn't have any reference on the diagram as to where the measuring takes place. So to infer that the wheel should be measured is just an assumption (a very understandable assumption but not necessarily the correct one).

H33D
03-11-2010, 07:46
Failed Charge = Charge
Successful Charge = Charge
Failed Charge =/= Successful Charge
Free Wheel is under rules for a Successful Charge therefore a Failed Charge doesn't use it.

That's my logic anyway, but I understand if others don't come to the same conclusion. Some rules weren't obviously looked at from every single angle before GW published them, but then again if they were we wouldn't have got 8th edition for a few more years now would we? :(

Archangelion
03-11-2010, 09:59
I think GW needs to start doing beta tests on their rules. Have competitions or something at their local stores and have people selected from the winners to play a run of beta tests to break down the rules and find issues like this.

AMWOOD co
03-11-2010, 20:03
I think GW needs to start doing beta tests on their rules. Have competitions or something at their local stores and have people selected from the winners to play a run of beta tests to break down the rules and find issues like this.

No, not from the winners, but from those that end up helping other players with the rules. These are people who apparently have a talent for understanding a rule system and teaching it to others in easy ways. This talent is what allows them to become rule-gurus and look for gaps in rule-sets.

Archangelion
03-11-2010, 21:29
So, look for the people who manipulate and twist the rules as much as they possibly can? lol

Grimskarr
05-11-2010, 04:30
Failed Charge = Charge
Successful Charge = Charge
Failed Charge =/= Successful Charge
Free Wheel is under rules for a Successful Charge therefore a Failed Charge doesn't use it.

That's my logic anyway, but I understand if others don't come to the same conclusion. Some rules weren't obviously looked at from every single angle before GW published them, but then again if they were we wouldn't have got 8th edition for a few more years now would we? :(
Actually your statement's logic should fall out as follows:
Failed Charge = Charge
Successful Charge = Charge
Successful Charge = Charge = Failed Charge

Clearly the last statement is not correct without a clarification. There are some things that are shared between the two, but obviously they are not the same.

Since this thread is winding down, I've prepared a summary of my argument for any late comers. The chart shows what movement rules are in effect for charges. The rules within the large burgundy box apply to both types of charges. The page listed are where the relevant rules to each statement are found.