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Archaon999
27-10-2010, 09:53
Hi all, my stupid friend and are having an argument whether or not you can use sacrificial dagger on a dice roll of 1, 2, or 3?

Can you please give us an answer?

TheDarkDaff
27-10-2010, 11:13
To answer your question i'll ask you a question. What makes you think you can't use it on a 1, 2 or 3. There is simply nothing in the rules to stop you doing it. In fact it would make it possible to get to the required 4+ to cast a spell in the first place.

Frosty_TK
27-10-2010, 11:16
I'm going to take a guess here:
Do you want to ask if the sacrificial dagger would help against roling a natural one and two, e.g. blundering the casting attempt outright?
Or rather, would you be allowed to use the dagger to role another die if the first one turned up to be a natural one or two?

I havn't got the exact wording handy, but since the dagger states that you may roll another die after making your casting attempt, I'd say yes, you may.


Note that I did not include the three into the upper rephrasing, because spells don't fail on a natural three.

Also note, that calling someone stupid ain't the best way to discuss things...

Chris_
27-10-2010, 11:25
Yes, you may make use of the Sacrifical Dagger after you see the results of the first thrown dices (no matter the outcome).

Lord_Elric
27-10-2010, 11:33
Yup perfectly usable Dark elfs can rule the magic phases now even if you roll a lowly 2 on your winds of magic your still capable of ending up with 5 power dice.

start with 2 opponent has 1 dispel dice
roll power of darkenss with 1 dice add one from dagger to make it 2
get 4 from PoD leaves you ending up with 5 perfectly capable of casting 5 spells at 2 dice each with tht lol sickening isnt it :P all for bout 30 victory pionts too :P

theunwantedbeing
27-10-2010, 18:00
It adds a powerdice, so yes, you can.
This also means it can cause miscasts and irresistable forces(usually at the same time but occasionally not).

So you can throw upto 13 dice at a spell with it for no reason whatsoever except to be able to throw more dice than anyone else is allowed at any given time.

Lord_Elric
27-10-2010, 18:08
It adds a powerdice, so yes, you can.
This also means it can cause miscasts and irresistable forces(usually at the same time but occasionally not).

So you can throw upto 13 dice at a spell with it for no reason whatsoever except to be able to throw more dice than anyone else is allowed at any given time.

Well saying it adds a power dice is an understatment really a lvl 4 sorceress could with 12 power dice could roll 4 dice for all 4 of her spells if they wante to best part bout it is if you dont roll any 6's you can just chuck another dice on top just to make it harder to dispel

a18no
27-10-2010, 19:03
It adds a powerdice, so yes, you can.
This also means it can cause miscasts and irresistable forces(usually at the same time but occasionally not).

So you can throw upto 13 dice at a spell with it for no reason whatsoever except to be able to throw more dice than anyone else is allowed at any given time.

No. The max you'll be able to throw is ALWAYS 12. If you throw 12 dices, you can't activate the dagger (or you'll break the pool limit), PD are in the pool untill you resolve the effect of the spell, or until it is dispelled.

On a more normal note: if you have a pool of 12 dices and take 3 for a casting attempt, you can't use the dagger until you want to cast a second spell.

theunwantedbeing
27-10-2010, 20:22
Dice are removed from the pool once they are rolled, this is way before the spell is resolved.
As a result, you can throw 13, albeit in a set of 12(the max) and then an additional one using the dagger.
Top of Page 4 in the latest Rulebook FAQ incase your wondering where to find it.

You can always use the dagger provided there is a model to use it on because of this.

There's no point throwing 13 dice of course (let alone even 7).

Ghostinthemachine
28-10-2010, 13:03
Your quite correct theunwantedbeing, but directly above that it states " Anything that generates additional PD/DD and does not state when and where it is generated, must be done during the WoM phase".

I'm not familiar with the last Delf army book or the dagger, but Geedoubleya, to me, can be so contradicting.

a18no
28-10-2010, 13:24
Dice are removed from the pool once they are rolled, this is way before the spell is resolved.
As a result, you can throw 13, albeit in a set of 12(the max) and then an additional one using the dagger.
Top of Page 4 in the latest Rulebook FAQ incase your wondering where to find it.

You can always use the dagger provided there is a model to use it on because of this.

There's no point throwing 13 dice of course (let alone even 7).

You're right, I've cheked once more the FAQ.

So dagger and the bonus spell from dragon mage or slanns can be use for the first spell they cast each turn, even if they rolled 12 on the winds of magic...

The Grim
28-10-2010, 13:29
Your quite correct theunwantedbeing, but directly above that it states " Anything that generates additional PD/DD and does not state when and where it is generated, must be done during the WoM phase".

I'm not familiar with the last Delf army book or the dagger, but Geedoubleya, to me, can be so contradicting.

It says when it is generated: after the first casting attempt

Palatine Katinka
28-10-2010, 16:00
You're right, I've cheked once more the FAQ.

So dagger and the bonus spell from dragon mage or slanns can be use for the first spell they cast each turn, even if they rolled 12 on the winds of magic...

I don't think so. Not all those abilities work the same way. I'm not sure about the Slann aand not 100% sure about the Dragon Mage but I think they add dice before rolling. The key to the Dagger is that you generate an extra die after rolling the dice (and thus removing from the pool).

I may be wrong on that though. I haven't bothered to double check the High Elf and Lizardman rules. But I do think it comes down to when in the process the dice are added.

stripsteak
28-10-2010, 17:55
You're right, I've cheked once more the FAQ.

So dagger and the bonus spell from dragon mage or slanns can be use for the first spell they cast each turn, even if they rolled 12 on the winds of magic...
no slann and d. mage generate the dice as part of the initial casting. ie before the dice are rolled. sacrificial dagger is after the initial dice are rolled.

dagger:
pool=12
throw 4 dice
pool=8
generate dice
pool=9
throw 5th dice
pool=8

slann/dmage
pool=12
decide to cast spell & generate dice
pool=12
throw 4 dice
pool=8

Lord_Elric
28-10-2010, 20:13
You're right, I've cheked once more the FAQ.

So dagger and the bonus spell from dragon mage or slanns can be use for the first spell they cast each turn, even if they rolled 12 on the winds of magic...

dagger can be used after the casting of any spell not just the first and can never exceed the WoM pool of 12 because you have to roll dice in the first place to use it

From sacrificial dagger "once per spell casting attampt, after dice have been rolled"

if given to morathi it could generate a maximum of 7 power dice per turn (the spells she know) with power of darkness cast with 1dice plus 1 from the dagger could generate another 4 for a PD profit of 2 =....Maximum of 21 dice per turn

sulla
29-10-2010, 07:19
... and still not do as much damage as one lvl2 with purple sun and a power scroll. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Lord_Elric
29-10-2010, 08:54
... and still not do as much damage as one lvl2 with purple sun and a power scroll. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Have you not heard of black horror then???. Purple sun really isnt that bad and if you willing to risk a single high I model you can quite easyily run it off the board, "conga line of harpys for example" reformed move a single harpy over the edge of the template with the rest of the harpys sitting in the direction the purple sun was taveling, ooooooo look your 50 piont purple sun has left the board lmao its really not that bad as quite alot things have high intiative and its completly random what happens (not to mention powerscrolls only "increase" the chance of a IF unless you wasting all your power dice)

Black horror hit Strenth wich alot more models in the game have at lower values than intiative it casts on a 12+ and you place the template where you like with out scatter then being able to throw around athings like chillwind and soul stealer.

on an even nastier note if you manage a level 2 with shadow magic aswell with enfeebling foe combine with morathis dark sword she aint half bad in combat especialy if you get her up to 6 wounds before hand :P

sulla
30-10-2010, 18:48
It's a joke Elric. Don't pop a vein. ;)

(Well not such a joke to the VC and Dwarven armies I fly up the line and unleash on, I suppose. )

But mostly a joke.

Besides, the extremely rare situation where Morathi gets to cast all spells in the lore costs you 7 troops and can be equalled by a good turn with death magic. Start with purple sun, kill some guys, get some dice back, snipe the weakest enemy character, maybe get dice back, rinse, repeat, interrupt sequence with PoD when neccessary, or just take the dagger on the death mage to help out even more...Or whoever you chose as your sorceress could just get killed before your first turn by a power scrolled dwellers. (Another joke).

Vsurma
31-10-2010, 17:39
I would say casting purple sun first is going to be tricky, you want it to succeed without IF (as most IF cause you to lose Pdice) yet you still want it to be high enough a cast to negate the enemies chance of dispel.

Will be good when it works though.

Archangelion
31-10-2010, 19:30
I gave Morathi the Book of Ashur... to a devistating effect. Thwarted my enemy's magic phase utterly and Morathi was just stupid fun.

As for the dagger, I rarely use it. I try to keep my sorcs as far from my units as possible, as to not invite the same disaster that was suffered by my friends. He blew up half his squad of guys... the wizard lived... from the first miscast, died the next round from the second.

Lord_Elric
31-10-2010, 19:54
I gave Morathi the Book of Ashur... to a devistating effect. Thwarted my enemy's magic phase utterly and Morathi was just stupid fun.

As for the dagger, I rarely use it. I try to keep my sorcs as far from my units as possible, as to not invite the same disaster that was suffered by my friends. He blew up half his squad of guys... the wizard lived... from the first miscast, died the next round from the second.

yeh plus 6 to cast spells must be nice too lol though dont forget morathi can still have the staff of sorcery its listed in the common items in DE army book for like 35pts cheap nd cheerful +1dispel lol

theunwantedbeing
31-10-2010, 19:59
Mortahi is allowed an arcane and an enchanted item.
The Book of Ashur would fill her arcane allowance, disallowing the arcane staff of sorcery.

Archangelion
31-10-2010, 20:04
I took the Seal of Ghrond on another sorc for added "I hate your magic". lol

Lord_Elric
31-10-2010, 20:32
Mortahi is allowed an arcane and an enchanted item.
The Book of Ashur would fill her arcane allowance, disallowing the arcane staff of sorcery.

i didnt mean aswell as just instead of lol

morathis already on plus 5 cast 35 pts instead of 70odd is still good for wot it does

im always stuck for wot enchanted item to give her sometimes tho

Archangelion
31-10-2010, 20:37
I hear that "The Other Trickster's Shard" is a good choice, as you can't join her to friendly units anyways, being a fly unit.

The "Book of Ashur" gives both a bonus to casting and dispelling, which is why I took it. I didn't really care about the points for the game. And I won by a landslide anyhow, so I must have done something right. Maybe it was all those pit of shade spells on his orgre horde....

Lord_Elric
31-10-2010, 21:03
I hear that "The Other Trickster's Shard" is a good choice, as you can't join her to friendly units anyways, being a fly unit.

The "Book of Ashur" gives both a bonus to casting and dispelling, which is why I took it. I didn't really care about the points for the game. And I won by a landslide anyhow, so I must have done something right. Maybe it was all those pit of shade spells on his orgre horde....

??? ive only read that character cant join flying units not that flying characters cant join units of infanty ??? they are just not able to fly and restricted to land speed (which for sulephet is bloody 9 anyway lol)

Archangelion
01-11-2010, 00:45
Must have been an old rule that I hadn't caught.

Somethingjaded
01-11-2010, 17:23
Alright, I may be entirely misunderstanding something, I am a DE player myself and do love the sac dagger and often employ it in my army list.

But I was under the impression that you could never throw more than 12 dice in a magic phase, no matter what. So if you rolled two sixes on the winds of magic, and got 12 PD, then you would not be able to use the sac dagger?

The rules seemed to read this to me very strictly, that you could replenish spent dice out of this pool, I could be wrong, maybe my friends and I have misread it. From what I'm reading here you could generate 12 PD, either through winds of magic, magic items, channeling magic, etc, and then still use the dagger \on every cast to kill one or more models for additional? this seems broken to me for the cost on this item if it works as such.

Lord_Elric
01-11-2010, 17:40
Nope the rules "say" you can only even have 12 dice in the power pool at any one time

sacrificial dagger is one of the few ways of adding power dice in the middle of the magic phase and inorder to use the dagger you must roll dice from the power pool so SD can neverr take you above 12 anyway

stripsteak
01-11-2010, 17:42
But I was under the impression that you could never throw more than 12 dice in a magic phase, no matter what

this is incorrect. You can only have 12 dice in the pool at any given moment in the magic phase. you can throw an infinite amount of dice if you had some way to keep generating them...just in batches of twelve

Q: Can I use more than 12 power or dispel dice in a phase even
though the pool is limited to 12? (p30)
A: Yes. While the pool can never contain more than 12 power
or dispel dice at any one time, some abilities can generate
more dice part way through a Magic phase.

Somethingjaded
01-11-2010, 17:52
So power of darkness the innate DE spell, can also be used to generate more dice? Wow I've been underplaying my magic phase, a lot.

Edit: that is more dice, even if you had 12, part way through the magic phase.

a18no
02-11-2010, 15:43
The dices are remove from the pool the time you "throw" them, following the FAQ.

Since the dagger is one of the only item, if not the only one, that add power dice to the roll AFTER the initial dices are thrown, you can use the dagger with EACH spells you cast even if it's the first and you were at 12PD before throwing for the spell.

Exemple:

Wind of Magic: 6-6, total PD at that time is 12
First spell (let say black horror), on 2 dices, throw dices, total at that time is 10, used 2
Choose to use dagger cause total is to low, throw it, total PD at that time is 10, used 3
Throw 1 dice for a second spell (power of darkness), total at that time is 9 PD, used 4
The total is not enough, use the dagger, total at that time is 9PD, used 5
Power of darkness generate 4 PD, you loose one, total at that time is 12PD, used 5
Throw that 3 PD for a chilld wind, total at that time is 9PD, used 8
Second sorceress cast PoD with 2 dices, total at that time is 7PD, used 10
PoD generate 4 PD, total at that time 11PD, used 10
Throw all for purple sun, total at that time 0, used 21
Death attribute generate 5 dices, total at that time is 5PD, used 21
Throw all 5 for a fatalitas, total at that time 0PD, used 26

Dark elf magic is awesome, very strong. Opponent need to dispel the correct spells or they are dead!

Good games!