PDA

View Full Version : Same Initiative wound dealing/regaining



durmacar
28-10-2010, 17:35
This could deal with lots of different scenarios, but the one I encountered was this. A Vampire with Blood Drinker, which lets him regain a wound for every wound he deals, was fighting an enemy that has the same I, therefor striking simultaniously. The enemy model suffered two wounds, as did the vampire. Now the vamp had two wounds base, and therefor should be killed, but Blood Drinker "immediately" gives him a wound back. What happens? fluff-wise I'd think he would live, as their battling back and forth and he's "stealing" life as fast as he's losing it. Rules-wise both I and my opponent were at a total loss.

Ramius4
28-10-2010, 17:51
I'd play it that he gets the wounds back too. Ruleswise, probably the best solution is to dice it off if someone doesn't agree. There isn't a hard and fast way to deal with it other than that really.

AMWOOD co
28-10-2010, 18:36
I'd play it that he gets the wounds back too. Ruleswise, probably the best solution is to dice it off if someone doesn't agree. There isn't a hard and fast way to deal with it other than that really.

Agreed on all accounts. It's a dicey one (oh, I'm so pun-ny).

stripsteak
28-10-2010, 18:45
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273213

for the raw side it seems like no since blood drinker heals wounds suffered earlier in battle. If they are happening at the same time they didn't happen earlier so can't be healed.

going more rai it could just be a conflict of wording between 7th army book and 8th rules, since 7th didn't have simultaneous attacks then the wording of earlier in the battle wouldn't really affect anything so each wound inflicted would heal a lost wound.

doing the 'gentlemanly' thing talk about it before the game, or just dice off and move on to finish the game.

Paz
28-10-2010, 19:18
Keeper of Secrets with SpiritSwallower(W inflicted => W regain) fighting with for example HE lord(so they are hitting stiminously). KoS got 2W left, he does 1W to HE Lord and also recives 2W. Does he die?

What my common sense tell me? If KoS does not die, he regains W(he gets a W, we check if he is dead, if not he uses Swallower). What would GW say? Who's turn it is decides :D

Lord_Elric
28-10-2010, 20:34
I would have to stick to my guns bout this one and say that Simultaneous attacks are just that simultaneous therfore they are worked out 100percent independantly of each other as though no wounds have been caused to either side until both have been 100 percent resolved...i will have a read of the book but my intial thought is that if the lord hasnt lost any wounds yet then he cant gain any during his attack....

EDIT right after reading the rules for I definately would say no he doesnt get the wounds back he gains them immediatly after causeing an unsaved wound if he hasnt lost any wounds left then he wouldnt have any to gain..I would say as i have before 2 simultaneous attacks can in no way effect each other so the vampires special rules from his attack cannot effect any of the wounds caused by the other simultaneous attack as they are applied to both models at the same time aka "Step 6 Remove casualtys" and the vampire regains wounds after unsaved wounds wich are caused in "Step 5 Saving throws" so they would be applied to the model between steps 5 and 6 before wounds are infact removed from the model.

Also spirit swallower would have the same effect and timing but same as with the vampire if the model had already lost wounds then they would be gained before the wounds from the combat are applied to the model...

Palatine Katinka
29-10-2010, 00:54
Surely he gains wounds at the same time as he loses them as combat is simultaneous and wounds are regained immediately. Then you move onto the Remove Casualties step by which point the vampire does not need to be removed as he has already gained wounds for the casualties he caused simultaneously.

Mathematically:

(Starting Wounds) - (Wounds suffered) + (Wounds caused) = (Wounds remaining)

If he is not fighting simultaneously then you can ignore either Wounds suffered or Wounds caused as one will be 0 at that Initiative step. If they are fighting simultaneously then you need to apply both simultaneously to find the net gain/loss of Wounds. If Wounds remaining=0 at the Remove Casualties step of any Initiative step then the Vampire is dead and removed.

Lord_Elric
29-10-2010, 01:09
Due to the nature of simultaneous combat you work out each set of attacks as though neither one has caused any wounds so unless the vampire has already lost wounds to regain (as the weapons does not state he can go above his starting limit)

the weapons states it regains 1 wound for every unsaved wound it causes immediatly. therefore he regains the wounds immediatly after the "saving throws" step of the attacks resolution has been resolved the wounds caused by the opponent are not applied to the model until the following step "remove casualtys" in which wounds caused by both simultaneous attacks are then removed from the models involved

so mathematicly it would have to read

(Starting Wounds) + (Wounds caused) - (Wounds suffered) = (Wounds remaining)
..........^..........................^............ .............^
..start of combat........Step 5(pg-43).........Step 6(pg-45)

Palatine Katinka
29-10-2010, 01:29
Mathematically it doesn't matter what order addition and subtraction are done in so your equation and mine give the same result. 2-5+4=1 and 2+4-5=1 if all are applied at the same time and since wounds are applied simultaneously and his regained wounds happen immediately I believe they should be applied simultaneously.

You also seem to be suggesting that the vampire has the opportunity to regain wounds before he has suffered them, thus missing out. How can he regain them before suffering any if he only regains them when the enemy suffers them and they suffer them at the same time?

Both models fail saves thus suffering wounds and vampire immediately regains wounds => models with 0 wounds remaining are removed.

Lord_Elric
29-10-2010, 01:56
Mathematically it doesn't matter what order addition and subtraction are done in so your equation and mine give the same result. 2-5+4=1 and 2+4-5=1 if all are applied at the same time and since wounds are applied simultaneously and his regained wounds happen immediately I believe they should be applied simultaneously.

You also seem to be suggesting that the vampire has the opportunity to regain wounds before he has suffered them, thus missing out. How can he regain them before suffering any if he only regains them when the enemy suffers them and they suffer them at the same time?

Both models fail saves thus suffering wounds and vampire immediately regains wounds => models with 0 wounds remaining are removed.

nope the equations do not come out the same as the vampire is incapable of exceeding his maximum wounds.

he regains wounds after the saving throws have been failed if he still hase 3 wounds then he doesnt regain any however wounds are only removed from the model during the remove casualtys part of the attacks resolution not before its quite simply and follows both RAW and the most likly intention of those rules. as both attacks are resolved completely as though neither causes any casualtys/wounds and when it come for the vampire to immediatly regain wounds he hasnt lost any yet as they have yet to be applied from the other attack, regained wounds above his starting maximum are lost

if you follow the correct sequence as laid out in the rule book and apply all effects when the book states you do the vampire doesnt regain wounds he has yet to lose

decad7
29-10-2010, 12:07
the vampire can't be healed and i die ?

Lord_Elric
29-10-2010, 12:28
the vampire can't be healed and i die ?

yup by following the rulebook and army book to the letter the regained wounds are applied "before" the wounds are lost during the simultaneous combat so kinda outta luck there

Palatine Katinka
29-10-2010, 16:04
I still don't buy that the wounds are regained before the target has lost them. The opponent has to have lost wounds for the vampire to gain them and the vampire loses wounds at the same time as the opponent.

Lord_Elric
29-10-2010, 16:13
Nope hed gain them for each unsaved wound the fact it states immediatly tell you when it applys for example if the both the vampire and an enemy has only 1 wound left (im not talking simultaneous here) and the vampire strikes first causing 2 unsaved wounds then he regains 2 wounds even tho the model has only one wound.

the weapons state firstly "regained" meaning the wounds must first be lost
"each unsaved wound the vampire causes" stating the wounds that are caused by the vampire not those that are suffered by the enemie.

if for example your vampire was fighting somthing that returns a wound for each successful ward save like DE black amulet then he would regain wounds before/exactly the same time as those caused by the amulet.

simultaneous attacks are worked out as though neither attack has caused or suffered anything therfore the vampire cant regain wounds hehasnt lost yet but blood drinker could put him back up to his maximum before wounds caused by the enemy are applied to him...

Kevlar
29-10-2010, 16:22
You can't gain back wounds which have not been suffered. Since both wounds are taken at the same time he attacks no, he can not regain them. He would have to attack after he has been wounded to regain the wounds. So he dies.

Archangelion
30-10-2010, 04:09
I think this issue is quite the same as the other 150 post thread that dealt with flaming wounds. The issue is the same, and is resolved the same.

Since the rule book states on both pages 43 and 51 under saving throws that a player can try to 'save' models that have been wounded.

Thus, in order to take a save, one must first have been wounded by an attack.

If a rule stipulates the need for only a 'wound', its need is met before saves are taken.

If a rule stipulates the need for an 'unsaved wound', its need is met after saves are taken.

To state that a model has not been wounded by an attack before the save step is to say that the model therefore cannot take saves. This just doesn't make sence, as it would result in a model only being wounded after the save step and unable to take saves for being wounded as the save step has been passed by.

For example. Look at the magic weapon named "Obsidian Blade". It states that armours saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by the blade.

Now, if a wound does not occur until after saves, then this weapon's ability is null and void, as the saves would have already been taken and failed in order for the wounds to exist.

Wounds occur when a successful 'to wound roll' is made. It is that simple. The wound, if left unsaved, persists through the saving throw step and becomes an unsaved wound, which will cause casualties.

Thus, the vampire would be gaining wound characteristic points back each time a succesful to wound roll is made. Plain, simple, and to the point.

Lord_Elric
30-10-2010, 09:17
I think this issue is quite the same as the other 150 post thread that dealt with flaming wounds. The issue is the same, and is resolved the same.

Since the rule book states on both pages 43 and 51 under saving throws that a player can try to 'save' models that have been wounded.

Thus, in order to take a save, one must first have been wounded by an attack.

If a rule stipulates the need for only a 'wound', its need is met before saves are taken.

If a rule stipulates the need for an 'unsaved wound', its need is met after saves are taken.

To state that a model has not been wounded by an attack before the save step is to say that the model therefore cannot take saves. This just doesn't make sence, as it would result in a model only being wounded after the save step and unable to take saves for being wounded as the save step has been passed by.

For example. Look at the magic weapon named "Obsidian Blade". It states that armours saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by the blade.

Now, if a wound does not occur until after saves, then this weapon's ability is null and void, as the saves would have already been taken and failed in order for the wounds to exist.

Wounds occur when a successful 'to wound roll' is made. It is that simple. The wound, if left unsaved, persists through the saving throw step and becomes an unsaved wound, which will cause casualties.

Thus, the vampire would be gaining wound characteristic points back each time a succesful to wound roll is made. Plain, simple, and to the point.

Almost there except that the item in question states the vampire regains wounds immediatly for every unsaved wound. the word immediatly gives the item permission to interupt the resolution so are applied as soon as the saving dice hit the table. the vampire does not have wounds removed from his profile until the step after saves..

Archangelion
30-10-2010, 11:43
Well, if that is the wording of the vampiric rule, then my apologies.

If what you state about the wording is true, then that would mean that the wounds would be taken off the enemy model at the same instant that he would be permited to regain them. (which is not what I had originaly thought was going on, I don't have the Vampire Counts book to check the exact wording, thus I was under the impression from the OP that the ability required wounds only.)

Given that the wounds are taken off the model and put on the model in the same instant, this makes things a little odd. Here is why, in order for a wound to be 'regained' a wound (and I am talking about the characteristic value here) must first be lost. So, if the vampire had previously lost a wound, then there is no problem. However, if the vampire had not, and the oponent deals enough unsaved wounds to reduce the vampire to a 0 value of wounds, the model is removed as a casualty as it has reached 0 wounds. A dead model has no abilities, and because a dead model has no abilities it cannot regain wounds with its ability. It's a matter of timing and wording. To regain, you must first lose what you would regain, if a model has no wounds remaining on its profile, it becomes a casualty.

See, like Elric has pointed out to me several times, casualties are not sufferd untill the end of the initiative step. That means unsaved wounds are not applied to models untill all models of the same initiative have had their go. Once all models are finished, then ALL wounds are applied to the models. It would be at this point that the models would be losing the wounds, after the unsaved wounds had been dealt and after the vampire had regained his wounds.

theunwantedbeing
30-10-2010, 11:51
You regain a wound suffered earlier in the battle.
If you suffered it at the same time, it's not suffered earlier.

So if a vamp hero deals 2 wounds with it, and takes 2 at the same time. He dies.
Although those 2 wounds can be put onto the unit he is with instead to gain some use from it, provided they've taken wounds earlier.

Archangelion
30-10-2010, 12:23
That is a much more elegant and to the point way of putting it theunwantedbeing.

Lord_Elric
30-10-2010, 12:35
That is a much more elegant and to the point way of putting it theunwantedbeing.

Agreed..

its all in the items description the words "immediatly" "unsaved" and "regain" define it quite nicely