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Templar47
29-10-2010, 08:51
The other day I was at my game store, and I had the good fortune of watching another IG player running a mechanized list (which is great since I'm starting to collect one myself, so this was a good oppurtunity to learn some tactics) against a Salamander Land Raider/TH terminator list. Around the start of the 2nd turn, the IG player managed to get his squadron of 3x Scout Sentinels w/lascannons in position to shoot at the Salamander players standard L.R. w/was carrying 1x chaplian w/Terminator Armor, and 5x Terminators w/TH, SS. Now instead of rolling all 3x dice at once, he first fired with the first Sentinel at the Land Raider, and managed to hit, penetrate, and destroy it, and then proceeded to snipe 2x terminators from the squad since the Salamander guy said that the LR was a dedicated transport. Now for some reason, the Salamander player argued and complained for like 10 minutes on how the IG player was being cheap at only rolling one dice at a time instead of all 3x at once (the IG player apparently has done this before), which also a lot of other players found very annoying and a "cheesy" thing to do. Now I personally dont see an issue with it but is there some reason that a lot of people consider it cheap? Just have been wondering about it.

lijah_cuu
29-10-2010, 09:01
Squadrons should fire at the same target at the same time in the same way as a infantry unit would. I don't have the rule book to hand as I am at work but someone should be able to supply the relevant page numbers.The IG player was being a douche.

marv335
29-10-2010, 09:09
The IG player was cheating, not being cheap.
A squadron is a unit, and all firing from a unit is simultaneous.
All three Sentinels have to fire at the Land Raider if one of them does.



A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not
locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire
among different targets.



When shooting, a squadron of vehicles fires all of Its
available weaponry at a single enemy unit.

ghoulio
29-10-2010, 09:12
The guard player wasn't being "Cheap" he was in fact cheating (even if he didnt know it). Units all have to shoot at the same thing. It would be the same as a Marine Tactical Squad blowing up a Rhino with their missile launcher then have the bolters fire at the people spilling out. While logical, all the shooting for each squad is done at the same time. So, all 3 lascannons fire at the same time and the LR would blow up after the last lascannon has shot therefor he can't shoot at the Terminators. If he had a second unit shooting then after the LR blew up, they would be able to shoot at the passengers.

Woodsman
29-10-2010, 09:21
I can't believe he didn't know that's how the rules are. that's pretty fundamental.

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 09:24
Not only that but he managed to kill a LR and 2 TH/SS Terminators with 3 Sentinels, thats pretty good going, even for a blatant cheat.

Templar47
29-10-2010, 09:27
I dont think its that he didn't know the rules. I think he just misunderstood what he read and what he was told sense he also just barely started only a month ago apparently. Still it dosent mean the Salamander guy shouldn't have overreacted.

Vaktathi
29-10-2010, 09:33
All it takes is someone grabbing a rulebook and pointing out the squadron rules. The IG player was flat out wrong in this instance and should not have rolled those hits the way he did.

Rulebooks are there for a reason.

DangerousBrian
29-10-2010, 09:34
thats assuming they were actually a "squadron", and not 3 individual sentinels running around together,

is the OP sure they were bought as a squadron?

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 09:37
It also says in the book that in general you should roll all similar dice at the same time. Rolling dice one at a time is incredibly annoying, and I hate it when my opponents do it.

A number of issues seem to be occurring here, most of them as usual from people not reading the rules. I am surprised that nobody who was watching noticed that he wasn't playing the game right, and I am also suspicious of the good rolling when combined with the other things you have said.

The one possibility here is that the Sentinels were not squadroned.

The stats are
(to hit, to penetrate/wound, to blow up/fail save)
LC Sentinel shooting at LR : 1/2 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/36
LC Sentinel shooting at TH/SS Terminator : 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36

I've had some outrageous luck in the past, but in this situation I'm thinking other factors were probably more likely.

Eulenspiegel
29-10-2010, 09:41
Thatīs a total of three 40K players not knowing the rule.
Two of which played armies that could be called power-builds.

Yay for the Internet, itīs like people driving bulldozers just after they got their driverīs license.

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 09:41
I dont think its that he didn't know the rules. I think he just misunderstood what he read and what he was told sense he also just barely started only a month ago apparently. Still it dosent mean the Salamander guy shouldn't have overreacted.

He reacted in the wrong way. Should have picked up the rule book and read it, and then said "Your wrong, and here it is in black and white why".

Assuming of course, as has been mentioned, that the Sentinels were squadroned.

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 09:42
Yay for the Internet, itīs like people driving bulldozers just after they got their driverīs license.

I used to drive Tractors, Diggers and Dumpers before I got my first license :) In fact I wish sometimes that I still did.

duffybear1988
29-10-2010, 10:40
It also says in the book that in general you should roll all similar dice at the same time. Rolling dice one at a time is incredibly annoying, and I hate it when my opponents do it.

A number of issues seem to be occurring here, most of them as usual from people not reading the rules. I am surprised that nobody who was watching noticed that he wasn't playing the game right, and I am also suspicious of the good rolling when combined with the other things you have said.

The one possibility here is that the Sentinels were not squadroned.

The stats are
(to hit, to penetrate/wound, to blow up/fail save)
LC Sentinel shooting at LR : 1/2 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 1/36
LC Sentinel shooting at TH/SS Terminator : 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36

I've had some outrageous luck in the past, but in this situation I'm thinking other factors were probably more likely.

I once played a game with 2 land raider redeemers against a mech IG army which had maybe 4 or 5 lascannons in it (all BS3). By the end of turn 1 I had lost both redeemers to his lascannons, even after popping smoke, so it does happen.


Still, the other guy should have known the rules.

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 10:59
I know, I had a game where I popped a Baneblade with one shot from a Lascannon on the first turn. But I am suspicious in this situation where it seems that no one knew the rules.

Bestaltan
29-10-2010, 11:06
I dont think its that he didn't know the rules. I think he just misunderstood what he read and what he was told sense he also just barely started only a month ago apparently. Still it dosent mean the Salamander guy shouldn't have overreacted.

As has been said, sure, he should have pointed out the cheating in the rulebook as his reaction. But it sounds almost like you're trying to justify the cheating and still trying to make it the Salamander player's fault.

Axel
29-10-2010, 11:07
As the others said.

The only exception that the "transport" triggers is that the Sentinels could have subsequently assaulted the Terminatorsquad.

Memnos
29-10-2010, 11:37
Sure. We all know this is clearly a mistake and/or cheating. We'll go with mistake on behalf of the original person.

But the person hit with a single lascannon and blew up a land-raider, then hit and killed 2 Terminators with a 3+ invulnerable save.

That may be cheating, but I'm just plain impressed.

LonelyPath
29-10-2010, 11:57
As the others said.

The only exception that the "transport" triggers is that the Sentinels could have subsequently assaulted the Terminatorsquad.

I don't think they could have assaulted the terminators. You may only assault the unit you have fired at and the LR was a separate unit, dedicated transport or not.

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 11:59
I think that is the case. Besides, 3 sentinels charging Assault Terminators? Bye bye Sentinels.

Whitehorn
29-10-2010, 12:16
Reminds me of my old signature.

Rulebooks are hardback for a reason.

Bunnahabhain
29-10-2010, 13:10
I don't think they could have assaulted the terminators. You may only assault the unit you have fired at and the LR was a separate unit, dedicated transport or not.

Or the contents of a transport you shot and destroyed. BRB, P67
Or another unit near the one you shot, thanks to a multi-assault

Not following the rules, and something like a power list ( lascannon sentinels in a power list :confused: ) and outrageous luck doesn't smell like a good combination to me

ehlijen
29-10-2010, 13:13
I don't think they could have assaulted the terminators. You may only assault the unit you have fired at and the LR was a separate unit, dedicated transport or not.

There is a specific exception to this rule regarding a unit destroying a transport (whether it is dedicated or not doesn't matter) being able to charge what piled out of it as a result of its shooting.

AdamR
29-10-2010, 13:13
I don't think they could have assaulted the terminators. You may only assault the unit you have fired at and the LR was a separate unit, dedicated transport or not.

I believe there is an exception to that rule specifically for assaulting the passengers of popped transports, but I'm at work without my BRB, so I cant give you a page ref.


EDIT - Dammit - multi ninja'd!

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 13:34
Thats good to know...

Garven Dreis
29-10-2010, 13:36
I know, I had a game where I popped a Baneblade with one shot from a Lascannon on the first turn. But I am suspicious in this situation where it seems that no one knew the rules.

A Baneblade? Really? You had 2 chain reactions and then either a structure point loss or another chain reaction? From a lascannon? I have problems popping LR's with a Lascannon, never mind a Baneblade.

duffybear1988
29-10-2010, 14:46
I have seen a reaver titan die on turn 1 to what would be classed as rediculous luck (as in lucky BS3 guardsmen lascannons... and a shadowsword).

LonelyPath
29-10-2010, 14:50
Thanks for the clarification everyone, I keep forgetting you can assault the passengers, always getting it confused with shooting the transport and then not being able to shoot the guys as they spill out of it ;)

Asmodia
29-10-2010, 14:50
A Baneblade? Really? You had 2 chain reactions and then either a structure point loss or another chain reaction? From a lascannon? I have problems popping LR's with a Lascannon, never mind a Baneblade.

Yes, I just kept on rolling 6s. My opponent had to take a moment and leave the shop, especially as he had driven an hour to a mates house to pick it up especially for the game.

Hashmal
29-10-2010, 16:09
I once blew up a full strength Baneblade with a Deep Striking Khorne Lord who threw a Vortex grenade at it. The game before that... yeah, he definitely Vortexed himself. My Khorne Lord had a football helmet for a reason.

ColShaw
29-10-2010, 16:36
Yes, I just kept on rolling 6s. My opponent had to take a moment and leave the shop, especially as he had driven an hour to a mates house to pick it up especially for the game.

That's why I don't trust really big models. Point-sinks, all of them.

Turn 2 of an Apocalypse game, I mugged a Baneblade with a pair of Outflanking Guard squads with Meltaguns, blew it up with a single volley. These things happen.

duffybear1988
29-10-2010, 16:43
Once had a wolf lord go head to head with the brass scorpion, he survived turn after turn in combat and actually took it apart piece by piece with melta bombs... man I love apocalypse.

TheLaughingGod
29-10-2010, 19:54
A Baneblade? Really? You had 2 chain reactions and then either a structure point loss or another chain reaction? From a lascannon? I have problems popping LR's with a Lascannon, never mind a Baneblade.

I had a Harlequin destroy a shadowsword with a single fusion pistol shot. Rolled two 6s and a 5. Funniest thing I'd ever seen. It was an official bunker game too, so I believe there's a GW report about it some where.

jsullivanlaw
29-10-2010, 20:50
The IG player was cheating, i would argue and complain for about 1 minute and then pick up my models and play someone else. Give 10 minutes was an underreaction.

Garven Dreis
29-10-2010, 21:13
I've lose my Fellblade to a bunch of outflanking TH/SS Termi's in 3 LR's, but they arrived late and was a bit annoyed, because I wouldn't have had my Fellblade there if I knew there was a chance of outflanking.

Zweischneid
29-10-2010, 21:27
Um? Seriously? Not only was the IG player plain wrong (or cheating). In the very words of the OP.



(the IG player apparently has done this before), which also a lot of other players found very annoying and a "cheesy" thing to do.


So (a) it wasn't the first time and (b) it's been pointed out to him. Yet still said IG player persists with (and argues in favour of) his "tactic"?

I really see no blame with the Salamander Player at all to be honest. Not in the least.

BigBarryJazz
29-10-2010, 21:39
I had a game where Snikrot came on next to my untouched Cobra. Only one of his attacks got the six he needed to hit. Then he rolled another six to penetrate...and then a further three sixes to destroy it. To add insult to injury he failed to roll another six so he could kill himself and his squad with it.

Chem-Dog
29-10-2010, 23:19
The IG player was cheating, not being cheap.

This is assuming that he wasn't just deploying 3X Squadron of 1 next to each other, it's not a trick that's unique to the IG.

Garven Dreis
29-10-2010, 23:56
This is assuming that he wasn't just deploying 3X Squadron of 1 next to each other, it's not a trick that's unique to the IG.

Mind you, the OP mentions that they were in a Squadron, but I think it's a very underhanded thing to do.

Bunnahabhain
30-10-2010, 00:26
This is assuming that he wasn't just deploying 3X Squadron of 1 next to each other, it's not a trick that's unique to the IG.

And fill up your whole FA section with three overpriced sentinels? When you could save yourself 20 points, and get a vendetta, and two free slots?

WildWeasel
30-10-2010, 00:32
And fill up your whole FA section with three overpriced sentinels? When you could save yourself 20 points, and get a vendetta, and two free slots?

Cause there's no IG players that don't own Vendettas, and that certainly wouldn't field Sentinels for the fun of it, or may value the fact that that three independent Sentinels can engage separate targets, fire at different times, and require at least three hits to kill.

None at all.

Culgore
30-10-2010, 01:28
I lost my landraider first time I fielded it, to a pred annihilator(shot 2) only after turn one(in which it made all speed for the enemy... and I didn't pop smoke)...

On the "not knowing rules" side of things my brother was playing me for the first time and tried to explain Maugan Ra shooting approximately thirty shots a round... because his A characteristic multiplied by the weapon... Apparently the entire gw store he played at played that way

freddieyu
30-10-2010, 01:41
I don't think they could have assaulted the terminators. You may only assault the unit you have fired at and the LR was a separate unit, dedicated transport or not.

you can assault the unit of a transport which you shot against and destroyed...this is mentioned very clearly in page 67 of the rulebook, right after the "Destroyed-explodes" description....

Lothlanathorian
30-10-2010, 01:57
EDIT: Redundant and late reply. Nothing of value.

Bestaltan
30-10-2010, 04:05
Heh. I once caused a warhound to go nuclear with a single meltabomb on my chapter master (back in 4th), collapsing my opponent's entire left side with the massive explosion, then proceeded to make my invulnerable save at ground zero

Angelust
30-10-2010, 07:20
I once used a Callidus to move a Brass Scorpion deep into my enemy's deployment and in LOS for my Orbital Defense cannon. About 75% of his units were off the board in my first turn.

bobbles
30-10-2010, 14:54
Cause there's no IG players that don't own Vendettas, and that certainly wouldn't field Sentinels for the fun of it, or may value the fact that that three independent Sentinels can engage separate targets, fire at different times, and require at least three hits to kill.

None at all.


The three lascannons are twin linked an important thing to note when using bs3 guard.
The vendetta is cheaper than the three.
The free slots thing in fa.
The armour value being higher.
Only giving away one kill point.
Being fast + carrying scoring units. ( this last one being arguably the most important )

On topic, this guy sounds like he was cheating not cheesing ( i know its been said but it cant be clear enough)

WildWeasel
30-10-2010, 21:16
The three lascannons are twin linked an important thing to note when using bs3 guard.
The vendetta is cheaper than the three.
The free slots thing in fa.
The armour value being higher.
Only giving away one kill point.
Being fast + carrying scoring units. ( this last one being arguably the most important )

On topic, this guy sounds like he was cheating not cheesing ( i know its been said but it cant be clear enough)

So are you going to buy him the Vendetta?

Yes, it is the superior choice, but people have to play with the models they have, and generally the ones the like. Just saying "ROFL Vendetta or GTFO noon" is ignoring a couple of important factors.

Chem-Dog
31-10-2010, 02:47
Mind you, the OP mentions that they were in a Squadron, but I think it's a very underhanded thing to do.

Just because the OP says it was a squadron, doesn't mean it actually is....this is the whole idea of the three for one. But it's a moot point, I was simply playing devil's advocate and offering a viable scenario in which the IG player was not cheating


And fill up your whole FA section with three overpriced sentinels? When you could save yourself 20 points, and get a vendetta, and two free slots?

Yes, why not. It's not optimum, but it's not without application.


So are you going to buy him the Vendetta?


Can I have one?! :)

bobbles
31-10-2010, 12:46
So are you going to buy him the Vendetta?

Yes, it is the superior choice, but people have to play with the models they have, and generally the ones the like. Just saying "ROFL Vendetta or GTFO noon" is ignoring a couple of important factors.


Not sure why you have a stick up you woohoo but a vendetta is cheaper to buy than the three (admittedly cool looking) sentinels and I didn't say gtfo or rofl not sure what post you read.

And unfortunately I cant buy the guy a vendetta (or Chem-Dog) as I've foolishly spent my toy money for the month on vendettas

ehlijen
31-10-2010, 14:20
Not sure why you have a stick up you woohoo but a vendetta is cheaper to buy than the three (admittedly cool looking) sentinels and I didn't say gtfo or rofl not sure what post you read.


Really? Where do you get the extra 5 lascannon from that you'll need on top of the valkyrie kit to make said vendetta that is still cheaper than 3 sentinel boxes?

bobbles
31-10-2010, 14:53
Heavy weapon crews would be a start, most guard players will have a few of these, potentially with spare lascannon. Then of course the option of asking your friends if they have spares (which around where I am is a genuine option)

Angelust
31-10-2010, 15:21
I had enough spare lascannons from various sprues to make 5 vendettas, and still have more lascannons if I wanted to convert my valkyries.

Grand Master Raziel
31-10-2010, 15:43
The other day I was at my game store, and I had the good fortune of watching another IG player running a mechanized list (which is great since I'm starting to collect one myself, so this was a good oppurtunity to learn some tactics) against a Salamander Land Raider/TH terminator list. Around the start of the 2nd turn, the IG player managed to get his squadron of 3x Scout Sentinels w/lascannons in position to shoot at the Salamander players standard L.R. w/was carrying 1x chaplian w/Terminator Armor, and 5x Terminators w/TH, SS.

In some fairness, the way I use Death Cult Assassins would lead some people to think they're one unit of 3 figures instead of 3 units of 1 figure. One DCA charging doesn't do much damage. Three charging the same unit at the same time can do some real damage. So, the three independent Sentinels being close enough together to be mistaken for a squadron is a real possibility.

Hey Templar47, maybe you can shed some more light on this discussion. Do you remember what-all else the IG player had in his list? Specifically, did he have any Rough Riders, Valkyries, Vendettas, or any of the Hellhound variants? Or did he have any more Sentinels besides those three? If he did, definately cheating. If not, probably not, or if he was, he was simultaneously compensating by fielding his only 3 FA choices as a squadron when there'd be no good reason to do so.

Chem-Dog
31-10-2010, 19:44
In some fairness, the way I use Death Cult Assassins would lead some people to think they're one unit of 3 figures instead of 3 units of 1 figure. One DCA charging doesn't do much damage. Three charging the same unit at the same time can do some real damage. So, the three independent Sentinels being close enough together to be mistaken for a squadron is a real possibility.

It can feasably be done with anything that's available in a squad(ron) of one, I've seen it done with Landspeeders, Killa-Kans, Buggies/wartraks, Sentinels, Penitent Engines (yes, really) Crissis suits and Obliterators.
If you've built your army to the points and you have spare slots available....

don_mondo
31-10-2010, 19:47
Cause there's no IG players that don't own Vendettas, and that certainly wouldn't field Sentinels for the fun of it, or may value the fact that that three independent Sentinels can engage separate targets, fire at different times, and require at least three hits to kill.

None at all.

While I imagine you were being sarcastic or facetious, I just have to say....

ME!! Don't own a single Valk or Vendetta, but still have and sometimes use some of my 20+ sentinels.

intercepta
31-10-2010, 22:38
i have three sentinals that i never use cos they came in the battleforce boxes that i needed to make enough point scoring troopers its hard to kill them all and i prefer the vendettas and valks.

a point i thought of that may be called cheating, vet guard in cover with camo cloaks on orders, so 3+ save (in cover), 1+ for camo cloaks, +1 orders, that makes it a 5 to hit, can you get it any lower? going to ground, better cover (tech priest thingy)

also with my blood angel army yeah i could field some hard as nails stuff but i prefer to go troop heavy and always charge flat out at my opponent. much more amusing :D

also the IG thing of just millions of tanks is some fun, you can field so many some cant shoot enough to kill them all, however its no fun...... turning up knowing youre gonna win......whats the point......i love to field alot of tanks with ALOT of men stood infront of them....i tend to think that enough men to take them off with a shovel is about right :D

Angelust
31-10-2010, 22:49
i have three sentinals that i never use cos they came in the battleforce boxes that i needed to make enough point scoring troopers its hard to kill them all and i prefer the vendettas and valks.

a point i thought of that may be called cheating, vet guard in cover with camo cloaks on orders, so 3+ save (in cover), 1+ for camo cloaks, +1 orders, that makes it a 5 to hit, can you get it any lower? going to ground, better cover (tech priest thingy)

also with my blood angel army yeah i could field some hard as nails stuff but i prefer to go troop heavy and always charge flat out at my opponent. much more amusing :D

also the IG thing of just millions of tanks is some fun, you can field so many some cant shoot enough to kill them all, however its no fun...... turning up knowing youre gonna win......whats the point......i love to field alot of tanks with ALOT of men stood infront of them....i tend to think that enough men to take them off with a shovel is about right :D

I'm having a hard time making out anything you're saying...

But concerning the cover saves, you can give the guardsmen a 2+ cover SAVE, which means when they wound you, you can roll a 2 or higher to save from the effects of the wound. You can get that through regular cover plus the Incoming order, or cover plus camo cloaks plus going to ground, etc. It's not particularly cheesy, it's just an aspect of the game these days. Most units you want to protect will be getting a 4+ cover from shooting, or even better with certain abilities.

ehlijen
01-11-2010, 02:07
Heavy weapon crews would be a start, most guard players will have a few of these, potentially with spare lascannon. Then of course the option of asking your friends if they have spares (which around where I am is a genuine option)

Sure, if you beg and scrounge for parts, anything can be cheaper.

Admiral Koppenflak
01-11-2010, 02:38
thats assuming they were actually a "squadron", and not 3 individual sentinels running around together,

is the OP sure they were bought as a squadron?


This.

Not much more to say that hasn't already been said.

Depending on his list structure, I'd actually be rather surprised if he had much more fast attack than this, in which case it's not outside the bounds of reason to suggest he had the sentinels in three force org slots as separate units. They might have appeared that they were a squadron in terms of how he was moving them (I routinely use Leman Russes in pairs/threes in close proximity to protect their flanks, but they each occupy a force slot unto themselves) but this by itself doesn't make them a squadron.

If that's the case, then yes, each sentinel is well within its rights to fire individually at different targets. But, if the three were taken as a single unit, he cheated. Simple as that. The UNIT - not the models - is assumed to fire everything at once, so this precludes any possibility of a squadron killing a transport and then diverting the rest of its firepower at whatever was riding inside.

AngryAngel
01-11-2010, 02:48
Alright, if the guy was running them as a squad, and firing them all one at a time, then also shooting at the squad that piles out of the LR he was cheating. If he was moving them all, like a squad but having them all be independent. It would be cool if he made it known at the beginning of the match, they were solo sentinels moving about.

As well though his opponent could always ask, and should always ask. It's not like your opponent can just not tell you and have it be a mystery.

As for the vendetta over sentinel thing. Some people don't either own vendettas, or care to find ways to transport them from game area to game area. For instance, I have 6 sentinels, they are much easier to get into foam then my 2 valks. So I use them more often then say my valks or one day to own vendettas.

Why do I run Sentinels ? Because its easier to move all 6 of them around. I love the look of the armored sentinels, and they tend to make me happy when they are on the field. Though perhaps I'm a strange abberation a guard player that fields what I like over what is best. I also run 2 full units of ST's as well, shocking I know !!!

Hell. I even don't field the valks and vends at cost of army theme. Which I based off the soviet army in the soviet afghan war. The vends and valks would be perfect for the air support of the Hind in that war.

Though I still consider its pressence there with the aerial insertion of the ST's which count as the Spetsnaz. You can still win without a valk or vendetta you know. So lets not keep bringing up the "Why would anyone use..." argument, as there are plenty of reasons why people will use sentinels.

Chem-Dog
01-11-2010, 03:09
Depending on his list structure, I'd actually be rather surprised if he had much more fast attack than this, in which case it's not outside the bounds of reason to suggest he had the sentinels in three force org slots as separate units.

What I was trying to say but far more succintly put.

madprophet
01-11-2010, 03:34
In a 1500 point game I played last week, my opponent was IG and I was also IG. He tried to outflank my army. In the first turn of shooting he blew up my LR Demolisher. My 2 squadrons of Sentinels (1 armed with Lascannon, the other with multilasers) and the Chimera assigned to a Stormtrooper squad brought down all of his flyers, the ST and a nearby infantry platoon shot the passengers to pieces. On the other side of the table (same turn), a lascannon HW squad shot his mechanized infantry out of their Chimera and the regular infantry shot the survivors to pieces.

Next turn I basically eliminated most of the rest of his army and he conceded the game.

I lost 3 snipers, 1 LR Demolisher, 6 Infantrymen, 1 Rocket Launcher team and 1 stormtrooper.

He lost 2 Chimera, 3 Valkyrie, 45 infantrymen (including Al'Rahem, 2 meltagunners regimental standard bearer, 5 vox operators, 1 medic, and 1 company commander).

Give me a mostly infantry force with lots of anti-armor man-portable weapons. Some Sentinels in a scout/tank hunter role with a few chimera with HK missiles and some HW squads and I will fear no tank.

Most of the guys in the FLGS league are infatuated with vehicle heavy forces. I have found my Rocket teams and LC teams well able to take out those tanks pretty neatly. Add a few HKM attacks and let the Sentinels snipe at them and the balance of forces swings my way very fast.

I have a little trouble with Landraiders but only a little and the large numbers of infantry grunts will make even Space Marines have to roll a lot of saves and even a 3+ save will fail 1/3 of the time.

The key to sentinels is to take several squadrons that can support each other - if the 3 sentinels were a single squadron, then yes, the IG player was wrong but if they were 3 independent units, he was well within his rights.

Generally I will have 2 LC armed Sentinels do the tank hunting supported by 2 MultiLaser armed Sentinels to take out any surviving passengers (2 separate squadrons).