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View Full Version : Where did the mistaken belief that DA love plasma come from?



Tom
12-03-2006, 03:15
The IA states that the Dark Angels maintain greeater amounts of old tech, and as such had a few extra Plasma Cannon they were able to give to Tactical Squads and fit on dreadnoughts. Not a vast cache, about, ooh, twenty spare?


Yet for some reason, this is interpreted as 'Dark Angels are about one thing- Plasma and more plasma' by some players.

Pre Heresy equipment != Plasma weaponry. Yes, it was slightly more common back then (percieved yet untrue, Plasma Cannon had only just been developed as man-portable and were very rare at the outbreak of the Heresy if old Dreadnought fluff serves me well, and Plasma guns and pistols were far less reliable-compare the Mk1 used by 2nd Ed CSM to the Mk2 used by the loyalists). Pre Heresy equipment could mean an older Land Raider, or a rather venerable Boltgun, or a decorated suit of Crusade Armour. Do Mortis Dreadnoughts have Plascannon? No.

Dark Angels are Not all about Plasma, and IMO if you're going to go that route I might just bring my Land Raider. THey're about the redemption of the sins not just of themselves but of mankind as a whole, about being damn good at what they do, about spandex and leopardskin... well, maybe not.


Rant over.

Lord Malachi
12-03-2006, 04:04
Plasma is overrated. Melta technology is stronger and safer.

starlight
12-03-2006, 04:11
It's just the one dimensional thinking of some of the staff and gamers out there. It's easier for some people to think of a given force in terms of one defining item or trait rather than accepting that all forces are made up of a wide variety of resources and traditions. Personally I was disappointed when GW started supporting the *single defining X* for each force. It smacks of just more dumbing down for the kiddies.

"Oh, you like X, then just play this army and you'll get lots of it."

:rolleyes:

However, since I don't play DA's or have any Plasma in my armies (unless I trot out the old Plasmacannon Dreads) I don't care one way or the other.:shrugs:

Acolyte
12-03-2006, 05:58
I think it's more because they have a lot of references with plasma (the Dreads, Tac Squad box, ect) and your average new Marine player, or even veteran player is generally 'OMG PLASMA IS TEH ROXXXORS!!!111!!!EIGHT!1'

Str10_hurts
12-03-2006, 07:54
jup 3rd and 4th edition is all about absolutes.

I mean look at korne, just ravning loonies....but once it ment committed to warfare and honour.
Alaitoc fluff indicates they had some what more rangers that other craftwords. Now its only super hiper mega power rangers force. (heh I said power rangers :rolleyes: )

Yep it is nice sometimes because otherwise you get a lot of grey armies, so it has its pros and cons.s

DantesInferno
12-03-2006, 08:55
It's not exactly a stereotype that most Dark Angels players are in a hurry to dispell though, is it, given plasma weaponry's effectiveness on the tabletop.....

In the background forum, we had a recent thread discussing a member's background for his personal chapter which seemed to perpeptuate the Dark Angels = plasma stereotype.

But a basic answer to the question "Where did the belief come from?" is from the 3rd edition update, which was basically designed to placate DA players who (rightly, IMO) thought their army was underpowered compared to a basic Codex list. Answer? Let them eat plasma!

Steel_Legion
12-03-2006, 08:56
I know a DA player, he has 7 plasma cannons in about 2000points, and thinks its not enough...

Smoking Frog
12-03-2006, 10:22
I know a DA player, he has 7 plasma cannons in about 2000points, and thinks its not enough...

Once upon a time I would've agreed...

Cheatah
12-03-2006, 11:45
...In the background forum, we had a recent thread discussing a member's background for his personal chapter which seemed to perpeptuate the Dark Angels = plasma stereotype...

Yeah, that's me. I'm not saying DA love plasma, I'm saying my DIY chapter loves plasma (and I do).

And yes, I started playing in 3rd ed., so I grew up with "DA = lotsa plasma" in mind. And this is indeed because the reason for plasma cannons in tac squads is because "DA have better access to ancient technologies". This, of course, means more other ancient technologies as well, but that's not reflected in the rules for DA.

Older players, and people who delved into DA fluff before 3rd ed. know that "DA != lotsa plasma".



Plasma is overrated. Melta technology is stronger and safer.
True, but melta technology doesn't come in "pistols" and "blast templates" form.

neko
12-03-2006, 11:47
As pointed out, it's the thinking that any tendancy should be taken to extremety.
For Dark Angels, (which in the rules at least) can take extra plasma, this means that you should take plasma with plasma, and a sidedish of plasma in a rich creamy plasma sauce.
Another example which springs to mind is the Iron Warriors, where they have a more pronounced tendancy toward using heavy support, which people somehow translate into "You must fill all 4 HS slots!! Or else!!!". This is about as fluffy as a standard Chaos army filling all 3 HS slots at the expense of everything else.

Xhalax
12-03-2006, 11:51
Plasma is overrated. Melta technology is stronger and safer.

I'd agree with that. I never have much luck with my plasma weapons....and kinda feel that they don't fit all that well with the background of my army (13th Co. Why wield something that could kill yourself just as easily as your enemy...especially when you're such a small force anyway?).

But I guess some people try to make ways of seperating their armies from all the others in both background and what can be fielded. And it seems that some people/person decided that to set the Dark Angels apart weapon-wise to make them seem like they love plasma weapons.

Ironhand
12-03-2006, 11:54
Neko's exactly right. Some players will take any army's specialty to an extreme. They're not worried about fluff, just winning at any cost.

Puffin Magician
12-03-2006, 11:55
Do Mortis Dreadnoughts have Plascannon? No.Although if you think about it that might be just as much a case of "do we want twin-Plas Mortises in the 40k game?" If they were mentioned in the fluff you bet there'd be a thousand people e-mailing FW and wondering where the model is.

...basically to placate DA players...Sad as it is, I agree with that.

Melta technology doesn't come in "pistols" and "blast templates" form.Inferno Pistol? Melta Torpedo strike? Rare like they should be!

Kahadras
12-03-2006, 12:19
I have to agree that I see DA players using more and more plasma nowadays. It seems to have crept into the army concept that they use nothing but, as far as I can see. GW came up with some crappy excuse that seen as the DA were the first founded chapter then they got all of the cool toys before anybody else. Leading to the fact that they have tons more plasma weapons than any other chapter.
If I was collecting a DA army then yes, I would have a larger than average amount of plasma weapons in my army. Would I max it out? No. Why? Because then I would be twisting the fluff from 'they have access to more plasma weapons' to 'they take nothing but plasma weapons'

Kahadras

Xhalax
12-03-2006, 12:45
Neko's exactly right. Some players will take any army's specialty to an extreme. They're not worried about fluff, just winning at any cost.

That's what kinda annoys me about some players. They've got something of a tournement mentality so they're all geared up to win at all costs.
Takes all the fun out of playing.

I know I haven't played many games, my army and playing style could seem quite beardy (13th Co....no pun intended) and I love giving everyone party favours....but as least I have a laugh while playing. Mainly because we're playing for the sake of playing rather than playing to win.

Hell, if I played to win, sod's law would dicate that I'd loose.

After all, the hobby is supposed to be about having fun.

Captain Stuart
12-03-2006, 13:42
If you go back and look at most DA armies pictured in White Dwarf in the 2nd edition era you'll see many, many of them have plasma cannons (typically more often than any other option). Whether this was a coincidence or not, you'll have to agree that should GW remove the plasma cannon from Dark Angels, they'd be hearing about it from their customers.

When I had my grenade launcher, multi-melta and plasma cannon options removed from my chaos marines, there wasn't a means to complain to the world (i.e. the internet). :)

Tom
12-03-2006, 17:37
Another example which springs to mind is the Iron Warriors, where they have a more pronounced tendancy toward using heavy support, which people somehow translate into "You must fill all 4 HS slots!! Or else!!!". This is about as fluffy as a standard Chaos army filling all 3 HS slots at the expense of everything else.

Funny you should say that along the lines of the thread;my 2500 IW have two HS.

Grand Warlord
12-03-2006, 18:19
Hi, my name is GW and I have a plasma problem ... more for the range than anything else.


actually i use to when i started i got the feeling it was plasma oriented but i have since further reserched my beloved Dark Angels and have gotten back to the true purpose .. killing the fallen ... with a better mixture of Las/Plas/Melta goodness.

Revlid
12-03-2006, 18:35
Funny you should say that along the lines of the thread;my 2500 IW have two HS.

See, now I would consider that unfluffy. Iron Warriors typically take as many big guns as they can, and they have a lot.
Then again, I would also consider 9 Obliterators unusual, with 6 being the max for me.

boogle
12-03-2006, 18:41
can i refer you to this thread on IW: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26712

GodofWarTx
12-03-2006, 21:21
as mentioned, its the same over-generalization people have of the armies,twisting them away from their core roots.

Dark Angels - Plasma whores
Blood Angels- loony vampires
Iron Warriors - army of doom
Slaanesh Chaos- Siren Demonbombs
vanilla eldar - starcannon whores

and so on.

Ironhand
12-03-2006, 22:04
In the case of the Eldar, I blame GW for not giving them any other truly effective general-purpose heavy weapon more than I do the players.

Kjell
12-03-2006, 22:15
Atcually, in the case of the Eldar I would say that it's due to there being so many armies with 3+ save troopers around.

I'm a CSM guy myself, though, so I can't say much...

neko
12-03-2006, 23:09
Agreed with Kjell on that point. In the fluff, the Eldar don't have to worry about 9/10s of enemy forces wearing power armour.

Astromarine
13-03-2006, 08:04
IMHO, the main two problems with DA I want to see fixed are Plasma Weapons and the "we're indians inside walking tanks" flavor of Deathwing. Ideally, both would be completely melta'd from the Codex. the DW will probably remain as is, though, even if it causes a really confused "flavor". I do hope the plasmaness gets reduced, though. It never made sense, I hate the thought of overheating weapons, and the DA as a primarily "shooting" army needs tactical weapon flexibility, not one choice over others.

Tom
13-03-2006, 15:15
IMHO, the main two problems with DA I want to see fixed are Plasma Weapons and the "we're indians inside walking tanks" flavor of Deathwing.

I actually kinda like the native americans but with the whole monk thing going for them look.

Brothergrimm
13-03-2006, 16:26
i never understood the plasma thing so the D.A where frist big deal does it mean they should also have a store of auto cannons to fall back on when all there plasma pistol guns and cannon overheat?

and why can't i give my I.W plasma cannons they have the know how to keep them in working order?

Tom
13-03-2006, 16:55
and why can't i give my I.W plasma cannons they have the know how to keep them in working order?

Because:

a: Plasma Cannon were distributed to the more front-line legions at the time; the IW were relied upon as a garrisson legion.
b: Hydrogen flasks and replacement coolant coils are a bugger to get hold of in the Eye.
c: Even if they're kept in perfect working order the coolant vanes'll jam occasionally, meaning it can't vent an overheat, knackering the weapon.


Technically it's the Emperor's fault. Fuel the furnace of hatred...

brother_fandango
13-03-2006, 17:12
i got really mad when i couldnt put plasma on my tanks.... really mad.

Tom
13-03-2006, 17:21
Which tanks?

Cheatah
13-03-2006, 18:03
It's not like DA can take that much more plasma weaponry over Codex Marines... only on Dreads, and it costs 10p more than the AssCan. The AssCan is probably even better.

Besides, I don't play with DA rules for the plasma weapons (hey, I use LCs as well). I really like their stubbornness and the look of the Deathwing. (ok, not the native american part... the monk stuff is rather great though)

I'd like to see other ancient weaponry, or that part of the fluff removed. (like... errr... what are some other ancient weapons?)

brother_fandango
13-03-2006, 18:21
i was just mad when i couldnt put plasma on my tanks... any tanks. i still am. heavy plasma cammon on a turret, anyone?

GodofWarTx
13-03-2006, 22:33
It's not like DA can take that much more plasma weaponry over Codex Marines... only on Dreads, and it costs 10p more than the AssCan. The AssCan is probably even better.

Besides, I don't play with DA rules for the plasma weapons (hey, I use LCs as well). I really like their stubbornness and the look of the Deathwing. (ok, not the native american part... the monk stuff is rather great though)

I'd like to see other ancient weaponry, or that part of the fluff removed. (like... errr... what are some other ancient weapons?)

Ah yes, but back in the heyday of 3rd edition, that assault cannon wasnt so hot, and with the way you could place templates, plasma could easily pile on bigger numbers of models under that template.

DantesInferno
13-03-2006, 22:41
I'd like to see other ancient weaponry, or that part of the fluff removed. (like... errr... what are some other ancient weapons?)

Flamers, autocannon, missile launchers, meltaguns, heavy bolters..........

Man-portable plasma cannon were one of the last weapons which Marines can carry to be developed, the other options were much more common during and pre-Heresy.

But of course lots of people want an excuse to get lots of plasma weaponry, so the Dark Angels having a lot of "ancient" plasma tech is relatively unquestioned. How would DA players have reacted, do you think, after clamouring for a fix to their underpowered Codex, that the update allowed them to take large numbers of "ancient" autocannon? The belief that DA love plasma was so easy to perpeptuate because plasma (particularly plasma cannon) were so effective at the time. Besides, as far as I can see, being the nominal 1st legion to be created for the Great Crusade wouldn't really have had that much of an effect pre-Heresy on the availability of plasma tech for them, at least compared to the other 1st Founding Legions.

cardboard_armour
13-03-2006, 23:21
I thought the misconception of Dark Angel plasma-philia was because of that advert that circulated for a while during 2000 which showed lots of happy young Dark Angels chowing down on a large bowl of Plasma as part of a balanced nutritous breakfast. It turns the milk Superheated!! :D

More likely its because in a hobby that thrives on the charade that things should be as fluffy as possible players will grab any favourable nugget of fluff that comes their way which is basically an excuse to field the most effective weapon. Just look at the Skyre Arms Depot lists (if I may use a Fantasy example). Fluffy as hell but no less diabolical.

Mike Johnson
13-03-2006, 23:26
Yeah the only reason I had plasma cannons in my tac squads because they came in dark angel box, and I couldn't be bothered spending more money on some heavy weapon blisters.

Now my Dark Angel army is usually quite flamer heavy/orientated. Mmm flamers.

Kahadras
13-03-2006, 23:32
Its the same for any list. The fluff says that Eldar take Wraithlords. So people take 3. They convinently ignore the fact that, for the Eldar, it's the equivalent of digging up the body of your Grandmother and firing it out of a catapult at an enemy who you know will do unspeakable things to it if they get their hands on it. This is ignored in favour of the power that it can bring to the battlefield and still claimed to be 'fluffy'.
That being said it's the same for most lists (like the all assault cannon army for instance). As far as I have discovered the reason for this 'lots of plasma' myth is from the contents of the Dark angel squad box in third ed which had a plasma cannon in it. GW slipped up on this as tactical squads don't have them but errated it in to the redone codex (thats what I've been told anyway)

Kahadras

DantesInferno
14-03-2006, 01:56
I was under the impression that the DA box squad with plasma cannon came after (or perhaps simultaneously) with the WD article detailing changes to the DA Codex, which allowed plasma cannon in tactical squads, along with other changes. The Codex itself was only redone with those changes after, IIRC.