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SolkaTruesilver
29-10-2010, 18:35
Has there been any indication that the Tau and Necron have had a major conflict? Like, a Tomb World opening close to the Tau Confederacy, or something like that?

Also, if it's the case, do we know if the Tau started studying Necron technologies? I am sure they would benefit a lot from the Necron's FTL drive, as it's Warpless.

Lord Damocles
29-10-2010, 18:37
Codex: Tyranids (5th ed.), pg.21. Harvest of Ka'mais.

Apocalypse, pg.33 shows a Necron attack on a Tau colony/city (possibly Ka'mais?)

Codex: Necrons, pg.19 has a picture of a Destroyer which is holding a Tau head.

Sephiroth
29-10-2010, 21:03
Also, if it's the case, do we know if the Tau started studying Necron technologies? I am sure they would benefit a lot from the Necron's FTL drive, as it's Warpless.

I think we would need to wait awhile before anything from such research found itself in a practical manner on the battlefield - the technology-levels between the Tau and the Necrons is so vast the Tau might as well be trying to decipher magic.

Stonerhino
29-10-2010, 21:14
It takes the Admech a Titan or Starship power source to power a Guass Flayer. The basic infantry weapon for Necron Warriors. Even then they can't get the trigger to work.

I don't think the Tau would have much more luck. Unless the necrons themselves helped them.

SolkaTruesilver
29-10-2010, 21:32
It takes the Admech a Titan or Starship power source to power a Guass Flayer. The basic infantry weapon for Necron Warriors. Even then they can't get the trigger to work.

I don't think the Tau would have much more luck. Unless the necrons themselves helped them.

The thing is, I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus openly studies the Necron technology to try to understand it. As opposed to the Tau, who would have no problem whatsoever trying to crack it open.

loveless
29-10-2010, 21:42
The thing is, I don't think the Adeptus Mechanicus openly studies the Necron technology to try to understand it. As opposed to the Tau, who would have no problem whatsoever trying to crack it open.

And what brings you to this conclusion?

The Necrons have been studied considerably by the AdMech and the Imperium - as would be noted in Codex: Necrons, among other places.

Necron technology is slippery. Anything that doesn't just Phase away is typically without any apparent firing or operational mechanism.

Those that seem to get too close are driven mad by something in Necron tech - we've seen humans driven insane by visions of the C'tan Endgame, afterall.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there's anything that would suggest the Tau are more capable of understanding Necron tech than anyone else. The tech utilized by the Necrons is so ridiculously advanced that it may as well be magic, as has been mentioned before.

ashendant
29-10-2010, 21:48
I could be wrong, but I don't think there's anything that would suggest the Tau are more capable of understanding Necron tech than anyone else. The tech utilized by the Necrons is so ridiculously advanced that it may as well be magic, as has been mentioned before.

The difference is that the tau will treat it as a piece of technology, and the imperium will treat is has something filled with a evil spirit

Stonerhino
29-10-2010, 21:49
In reguards to the postulations put forward by Magos Barrous concerning the operation of the armament carried by the necrons know as gauss.Page 54 Necron codexThe artical lists why the admech cannot preproduce the weapon.

loveless
29-10-2010, 21:54
The difference is that the tau will treat it as a piece of technology, and the imperium will treat is has something filled with a evil spirit

Yet for all their pomp and ceremony, the Ad Mech's methods do work. Let them have their hymns and gestures - it's just putting a religious touch to a functional process.

In other words - since tech utilized by the Imperium works, it seems a fallacy to imply that the Ad Mech would be incapable of properly studying a piece of technology.

This goes beyond the consideration that the Void Dragon sleeps on Mars and likely influences members of the Ad Mech (speculation, but popular speculation), which would likely mean they're better suited to understanding Necron technology than some races.

Humans also seem to have little trouble understanding alien technology - the first Ravenor book (I think it was that series) has a human fighter unaligned with the Tau making use of Tau weaponry he relieved from its former owner.

Also - in the case of some Necron weapons - it may not be entirely inaccurate to consider some of them filled with an "evil spirit" of sorts.

SolkaTruesilver
29-10-2010, 22:01
Also - in the case of some Necron weapons - it may not be entirely inaccurate to consider some of them filled with an "evil spirit" of sorts.

It's the same way a medieval man would consider any radioactive material to carry a curse that makes you lose your teeth.

"Evil spirit", the way you describe it, is simply physical consequence to being close to Necron Technology, which might be radiative or chemical. Problem is, the Adeptus just hasn't discovered what is that effect. Stopping yourself thinking it's an evil spirit is limiting.

Also, maybe the inherent Warp-sensitivity of Humans makes them more vulnerable to Necron technology, which are pretty anti-Warp. As opposed to the Tau, who barely feel it.

MEcorp
29-10-2010, 22:46
Most Necron tech isn't anti-warp though, they don't like it and tried to separate from it but they don't actively attack it. Also the fact that the Necrons were more or less destroyed by warp based attacks to which they had little to no defense against highly suggests that their tech doesn't emit anti-psyker rays or anything similar.

Firaxin
30-10-2010, 08:14
Necrons can't handle the warp, at least on a micro-scale. It's anathema to their gods, if not them too (I'm not sure they have souls... which means like the Iron Men of the DAoT, they have no defense against it). They were in the process of sealing off the warp from realspace before they went into hibernation because it was the most effective weapon against them. And now that they're back, their main priority/only innovation that we know of are Pariahs, which are basically human blanks (block out the warp) in Necron bodies.

Furthermore, don't joke that Tau are anywhere near understanding Necron technology. The thought makes me puke. :eyebrows:

Cal585
30-10-2010, 09:29
This goes beyond the consideration that the Void Dragon sleeps on Mars and likely influences members of the Ad Mech (speculation, but popular speculation), which would likely mean they're better suited to understanding Necron technology than some races.



All good points, however, the Tau are certainly much more innovative and developing at a much greater rate than the Imperium. They're more open minded. With the Ad Mech studying something, you'll have a couple of Magos focussing on it. With the Tau, if it's deemed important by the Ethereals, you're going to have a major concerted effort to try and understand it.

As it is, it's incomprehensible for everyone else. It does seem more likely that the Tau approach might uncover the means of unlocking the Necron secrets before the Imperium though. At the very least they may be able to work out parts of the technology to adapt (which even the Imperium does).

Corvussanctus
30-10-2010, 09:48
All good points, however, the Tau are certainly much more innovative and developing at a much greater rate than the Imperium. They're more open minded. With the Ad Mech studying something, you'll have a couple of Magos focussing on it. With the Tau, if it's deemed important by the Ethereals, you're going to have a major concerted effort to try and understand it.

Yeah. But of this few Magi each of them will have stored more brains in their locker than Tau have fingers, and these guys will have centuries if not millenia of experience and some of the have even permanent links to the main computer/Machine Spirit of their Forgeworld or even Mars.
The Admech is crazy beyond believe if you look deeper in their background, and they try to press every bit of information they come across in the big central Computer of Mars.

MagosHereticus
30-10-2010, 10:50
i seem to remember an inquisitor powering and activating a necron monolith found deep within a space hulk, causing warriors to spill out of it's portal and forcing the captain in orbit around the hulk to open fire on the inquisitors position

i would assume it would take considerable understanding and insight to activate such a portal, so admech have made progress

massey
30-10-2010, 13:46
The Tau have encountered Necrons before. Not in a good way. It resulted in a lot of dead Tau. So they haven't really gotten the opportunity to study Necron tech. Even if they did study it (which they haven't), you should understand that Necron tech does things which seem to be impossible. They just break the laws of physics. Even if they can figure out how to turn the thing on, they didn't take Necron Physics 101, so they won't have the slightest idea how it works. This is something you have to study for thousands of years before you get anywhere on it.

Lionsprey
30-10-2010, 15:46
i seem to remember an inquisitor powering and activating a necron monolith found deep within a space hulk, causing warriors to spill out of it's portal and forcing the captain in orbit around the hulk to open fire on the inquisitors position

i would assume it would take considerable understanding and insight to activate such a portal, so admech have made progress
This sounds familiar, But didn't they use some sort of alien device (i think it was a black box of some sort) to do it?

Inquisitor Engel
31-10-2010, 01:14
The Tau have encountered Necrons before. Not in a good way. It resulted in a lot of dead Tau. So they haven't really gotten the opportunity to study Necron tech. Even if they did study it (which they haven't), you should understand that Necron tech does things which seem to be impossible. They just break the laws of physics. Even if they can figure out how to turn the thing on, they didn't take Necron Physics 101, so they won't have the slightest idea how it works. This is something you have to study for thousands of years before you get anywhere on it.

We in the 21st century already do things that break the laws of physics as we know them. Quantum Theory and Newtonian Physics describe VERY different behaviours for particles that are both quantifiably verifiable!

Iracundus
31-10-2010, 01:22
We in the 21st century already do things that break the laws of physics as we know them. Quantum Theory and Newtonian Physics describe VERY different behaviours for particles that are both quantifiably verifiable!

Having just examples of advanced technology doesn't mean one can understand it even if you study that example, if one doesn't have understanding in the prerequisite science and theory behind it.

If you gave a prehistoric human a TV or computer, they wouldn't understand it either even if they managed to carefully open it up and look at the insides. Sure they'd see the inner mechanisms and parts but they would be meaningless gizmos to them and they wouldn't understand how they function or how the sum of their functioning adds up to a working device. They don't have the prerequisite understanding of electricity or materials to enable them to understand or replicate such an item.

ForgottenLore
31-10-2010, 02:10
If you gave a prehistoric human a TV or computer,....

They don't have the prerequisite understanding of electricity or materials to enable them to understand or replicate such an item.

But give an ancient greek or roman an internal combustion engine and there is a pretty good chance they could figure out the basics, even if they don't understand the chemistry behind what makes gasoline burn.

Sekhmet
31-10-2010, 02:28
Having just examples of advanced technology doesn't mean one can understand it even if you study that example, if one doesn't have understanding in the prerequisite science and theory behind it.

If you gave a prehistoric human a TV or computer, they wouldn't understand it either even if they managed to carefully open it up and look at the insides. Sure they'd see the inner mechanisms and parts but they would be meaningless gizmos to them and they wouldn't understand how they function or how the sum of their functioning adds up to a working device. They don't have the prerequisite understanding of electricity or materials to enable them to understand or replicate such an item.

Give a modern human, even an intelligent one, an iPhone. Without access to any modern knowledge (no internet, no textbooks, no TV, just the iPhone and no background in electronics or engineering or physics), it would take generations to find out how to recreate one. First you need to make it work. I'm not talking about the touchscreen, I'm talking about giving it power. You'd have to understand electricity... something that took humans, what, seven thousand years or so? Hell, even with electricity, you have the very major problem of transistors in the nanometer scale. How do you even see something that small without an electron microscope? How do you even know there's something to see in that "black box" of a chip? So assuming you have an advanced understanding of electronics, you know that it's essentially a PCB with components on it, and you know how to map the interactions between the components. But that's all very basic. Even if you stumbled upon an electron microscope to see the circuits, you'd have to figure out what a CPU does by its hardware! An ALU, registers, etc... if no one told you what they did, it would take a very long time to figure it out. Then main memory? Flash memory? The battery? The screen? The speakers? The multiple radios? Each component takes decades to perfect with everything explained to the engineers.

Hell, give an iPhone to a modern person WITH the internet, libraries of text books, and access to a university's electrical engineering, physics, computer science, and materials science departments, and it would still be that person's lifetime work to understand every component with sufficient detail to recreate it... assuming the requisite infrastructure is in place to produce that technology.

And this is just an iPhone. Move that up to an F-22 and then what? You have engines, dozens of computers, various avionic sensors, radar, radios, a secret paint job, missiles, and much more. But see, the difference between an iPhone or F-22 and a caveman is what, 4k years? The difference between Necron and Human or Tau technology is much bigger.


But give an ancient greek or roman an internal combustion engine and there is a pretty good chance they could figure out the basics, even if they don't understand the chemistry behind what makes gasoline burn.
Internal combustion engines are extremely simple machines. If you remove the unnecessary components, the basic principle can be taught to a 8 yr old. From there, it's just tweaking it with compression, seals, stroke, air/fuel mixture, etc to make it more efficient. You can reverse engineer an engine like nothing. But modern electronics are so advanced that even people who grew up with them all their lives have absolutely no idea how they work. I have no doubt a Tau or Human could figure out how to fire a Gauss Flayer (if it didn't phase out). I also have no doubt they could never create an exact replica within at least 2,000 years. And it's only so short because they have many working examples to reverse engineer.

Eumerin
31-10-2010, 02:34
But give an ancient greek or roman an internal combustion engine and there is a pretty good chance they could figure out the basics, even if they don't understand the chemistry behind what makes gasoline burn.

It wouldn't matter much, though, because without the fuel the engine is useless. And they can't refine the fuel. And unless the engine comes with a crank attached, they don't have anything that will provide the initial spark of power to kickstart the engine.

Also keep in mind that metallurgy is one of the things that held back the development of engines. Without the knowledge to craft light and flexible metals, your understanding of the principles behind internal combustion is largely useless.

In short, you see a Gauss weapon and think "Gun!" But the reality is that it's considerably more complicated than that.

Stonerhino
31-10-2010, 02:37
The greeks had things like the Antikythera mechanism. So we don't truely know what their tech level was and what was lost. Lets not even start to talk about other ancient peoples and their tech.

But let say that we take a modern micro processer and take it back to the early 1960's. They could do nothing with it. Not even see it's inner workings because a working SEM was not marketed untill mid to late 60's.

ForgottenLore
31-10-2010, 02:47
But

A: were not really talking about exactly duplicating a given piece of technology, simply learning something from it that would have normally taken centuries to figure out without help and

B: were not talking about what a single Tau could do with a single Gauss Flayer, were talking about what thousands of Fio could learn if they somehow managed to scape together several semi-intact flayers, as well as other odds and ends.

If you gave an ancient human (not caveman, someone who actually understands the concept of science) a modern jet fighter, no he could not possibly build themselves another one, but if you gave several thousand ancient inventors several jet fighters, some almost intact, including a couple demonstrations of what they do, they could learn a lot. Still not enough to duplicate the machine as is, but they could figure out how to make a flying machine of some sort, advanced mechanics, possibly some metallurgy, maybe a flammable liquid of some sort, though certainly not jet fuel.

Even a few thousand "cavemen", working together, could learn a lot from a fighter plane.

Modern technology is not really a result of thousands of years of gradual development, it is a result of a change in mindset brought about by a massive labor shortage a few centuries ago that then snowballed.

Crimifa
31-10-2010, 02:47
why has noone brought up the tenuous and speculative connection of farsight and his "dawn blade"...

he found it on some dead alien world (tomb world anyone?)
it is very very reminscent of a warscythe... (yes yes they have different rules, but this is the world of fluff... so ram your rules, tau don't have power weapons so why should they have the steriod version of one?)

then there is the enhanced life span of farsight and his break awayness... yeah sure that has explained reasons and stuff... but mmm

there was also an incident between tau necrons and tyranids.

tyranids were nom'n tau pretty bad, but then some necrons showed up and took care of that (no noms for the nids)

the tau, in their naive and open armed style, lauded the metal warriors as heroes and i think (can't remember) sent a nice big welcome basket or something

to which the necrons turned around and killed them all... they were cranky at being woken up...
"damn kids, get off our world!"

then there is the massive amounts of speculations of the deciever having a direct hand in Tau development (unlikely, i mean, it was a warp storm that saved them, necrons no likey warp storms)

and i even read some riddiculous theory that Tau are a descendent/relic of the necrontyr races, can't see any evidence of that.

then we move onto the discussion of tau studying necron tech.
well, firstly aside from the "dawn blade" there isn't really too many instances of tau finding necron stuff

admechs LOVE finding necron stuff its like catnip to them, of course... they always seem to die when they do

unless they have space marines with them... then for some reason the necron tomb is always destroyed
stupid space marines and their plot armour, why can't necron technology replicate some of that impossible armour... it defies physics good enough lol.
(of course, necron codex does have some delicious examples of space marines failing)

but IF the tau did find some necron tech, they would study it... however, they wouldn't get very far.
basically it would be very much like that show ahh whats it called, gotta make sure i say the right one... "Stargate"? yes that one...
super super ancient race with technology left behind that is neigh indistinguishable from magic
we find some of their tech, we study it, we can use it... but hell we definately wouldn't be able replicate it.

tau would most likely learn a bit about it and jump a couple of centries forward in tech, but still would be far inferior to its true operation.

so lets say they got their hands on a ship... despite this being utterly impossible (not only are necron ships superior to tau ships, the only method of obtain such a ship would require lots of rail guns... and that would either phase the ship out or destroy to the point of uselessness)

lets say they did, they would find the inertia-less drives and go "hmm interesting" they would then try replicating most likely developing better spin drives... which would let them rev up their engines faster enabling much more effect warp dives (tau ships dive toward the warp and then skim off it)

so they would benefit from any studying of necron tech, but they would only be able to apply it to improving their own tech.

ForgottenLore
31-10-2010, 02:56
It wouldn't matter much, though, because without the fuel the engine is useless. And they can't refine the fuel. And unless the engine comes with a crank attached, they don't have anything that will provide the initial spark of power to kickstart the engine.

But they would understand that it used a fuel of some sort, that that fuel worked by burning at high temperatures and they could figure out how it converted that reaction into mechanical motion and they would learn some very advanced ways that mechanical motion was then transmitted to other parts of the device.

Give the ancient greeks a modern automobile and they could eventually build a large, steam powered vehicle.

If they have a sample of gasoline all they would need to do is figure out that it is petroleum based and then a hundred years later they can make gasoline.

IF they have the political will to invest resources and manpower into figuring these things out. The ancient humans didn't so it took us several thousand years, the Tau do.

Eumerin
31-10-2010, 03:01
Even a few thousand "cavemen", working together, could learn a lot from a fighter plane.

Only if they hadn't yet discovered the wheel - and even then you're looking at something rather iffy (it would help if someone had left the plane's brakes off, for instance). But that one discovery happened, then it would happen very early on in their "research". Anything and everything else about it would be a complete mystery to them. And it would remain a mystery long after the plane itself had rusted away.

It's the same with the Tau and the Necrons. If the Tau could learn anything, then they'd learn it fairly early on. Anything and everything else would remain a complete and total mystery to them. They likely don't even have the necessary tools to properly evaluate any Necron equipment that didn't fade out along with the Necrons themselves.


Give the ancient greeks a modern automobile and they could eventually build a large, steam powered vehicle.

If they have a sample of gasoline all they would need to do is figure out that it is petroleum based and then a hundred years later they can make gasoline.

Once again, NO and NO! You have some basic problems to overcome.

For instance, the materials on hand simply aren't good enough to work with. It's not only refined petroleum that you need. You also need certain metals (particularly light-weight ones), skilled craftsmen who can work with those metals, and a location in which the fine work needed can be performed. You can't give a modern screw to a Roman blacksmith and expect him to be able to duplicate it. There's a reason why ancient nails were fairly massive things.

You're looking at an engine and thinking, "Basic physics!" But you're forgetting about all of the logistics involved in both crafting the thing and keeping it in working order. There's a reason why most of the inventions that the human race has enjoyed over the years took place in the order that they did. People not only had to come up with the ideas behind those inventions, but also figure out how to actually go about crafting them in a way that would make those inventions practical. And the latter is oftentimes even harder than the former.

Stonerhino
31-10-2010, 03:22
If you know Moore's law. Then you know that there is built in faw with silicon chips.

If Moore's law is true then we need to overcome the flaw with silicon. The flaw is that you are limited to how small you can make the circuitry. To small and it burns up. Making a built in limit to silicon.

One of the ideas I have heard of is using blue diamond as conductors on a graphene circuit board. This may be some years off or be dropped completely. But if they can get it working. Think about someone five years ago who sees a CPU that has circuitry that's one atom thick. On a circuit board that's also one atom thick. And that's assuming they even know what they have in their hands.

ForgottenLore
31-10-2010, 03:37
There's a reason why most of the inventions that the human race has enjoyed over the years took place in the order that they did.

Well, MOST of the inventions the human race has made have occurred in the last 150 years. And that happened because of a cognitive shift in the way we view the world. On a large scale we started looking at the world as a problem to be solved and once we started doing that we were able to solve a whole bunch of it very rapidly.


People not only had to come up with the ideas behind those inventions, but also figure out how to actually go about crafting them in a way that would make those inventions practical. And the latter is oftentimes even harder than the former.

Which is exactly why I emphasized the need for the political will to pursue such research. The industrial revolution happened because after the black death it became profitable to mechanize. The ancient greeks and romans had more basic knowledge, and that knowledge was more widespread, than the middle ages and about on par with the Renaissance (which was just trying to reclaim ancient classical learning), but there was no incentive to apply that knowledge to industrialization. If the ancient greeks had had a reason to unify and devote their entire society to technological advancement (like say, if a mysterious priest class had suddenly shown up and unified all the warring factions) then there is no reason why the modern age could not have happened before 1 AD.

Please note in my posts the emphasis I place on the Tau not being able to exactly replicate necron tech but simply learning little bits about how it works and applying that to what they already can do. It took less than 200 years for humans to learn how to refine crude oil into high grade rocket fuel and that was with nothing to guide them.

There would certainly be vast areas of necron tech that would be totally indecipherable to the Tau and certainly to anyone else, but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be other things they can learn from the study that they could apply to advance their own tech significantly. It might still look like stone knives to the necrons but it could be a thousand year advance to the Tau.

imperial90
31-10-2010, 09:43
Dude, the black death happened 500 years before the industrial revolution.......

Sekhmet
31-10-2010, 15:50
Dude, the black death happened 500 years before the industrial revolution.......

Oh snap!!!

ForgottenLore
31-10-2010, 16:07
Yes, and catalyzed the societal changes that caused it.

Thanks to the Ethereals the Tau don't have to go through a devastating plague and a couple hundred years of social upheaval to get to the point where rational science and industrialization is the standard world view.

My point (which is increasingly getting lost in this thread) is that it only took humans 500 years, not thousands, to make that cognitive change in their society, once they did it only took them 150 years to go from handcrafted cottage industry and animal power to building iphones and jet airplanes

The Tau have already made that adjustment to worldview and there is no reason to think that they couldn't at least understand the principles behind necron tech and use those principles to advance their own science, even if they lack the manufacturing infrastructure to replicate necron tech.

I'm really not sure how this argument started anymore, or where it is going or what it has to do with the topic.

SolkaTruesilver
31-10-2010, 21:59
I'm really not sure how this argument started anymore, or where it is going or what it has to do with the topic.

Just to know if it would be worthwhile for the Tau to capture intact Necron technologies to study and maybe retro-engineer it.

nagash66
31-10-2010, 23:06
For all you people talking bad on the olden tech.

The Eastern Roman Empire had flamerthrowers that burned on water...nuff said in my books.

Firaxin
31-10-2010, 23:40
The difference between jets and necron technology is one breaks quantum physics and the other doesn't...

Sekhmet
31-10-2010, 23:50
For all you people talking bad on the olden tech.

The Eastern Roman Empire had flamerthrowers that burned on water...nuff said in my books.

Yes, the ancient peoples of the world had some technology. Some greeks had crude steam powered machines. Chinese had rockets. The romans had ridiculous engineers, as did the egyptians. But none of that comes anywhere close to where we are now. Yes they figured out that oil burns and floats on water, and could pump it a few yards off the bow of their ship.150 years ago we had iron warships with turrets and submarines. Today a modern warship can kill another ship from over the horizon. Those flame throwers are glorified squirt guns with whale oil and a match.

And fyi, the greeks had greek fire, something like napalm, centuries before the romans even had an empire.

Firaxin, neither break quantum mechanics, but necron stuff does break relativity.

Firaxin
01-11-2010, 00:30
Don't quantum mechanics make it impossible for anything with a positive mass to exceed c?

...Meh, I'm no geek. I'll just stick to my more feasible/understandable warp magiks.

I'd also like to point out the Dawnblade is more likely to be a chaos artifact than a Necron device.

massey
01-11-2010, 00:58
Don't quantum mechanics make it impossible for anything with a positive mass to exceed c?

That's relativity. Doesn't matter though. Necron technology violates any laws it feels like.

Of course the Tau could study Necron technology. The indication is that the Admech have been doing that for thousands of years. And like the Admech, the Tau could probably learn some things. But it's not a simple process. Even with Ethereals telling their guys to study as hard as they can, you've got real problems.

"Well, it doesn't seem to have a power source. It's made of some sort of metal that we can't duplicate. None of our scanners can penetrate the armored shell, and when we try to open it, it disappears. Then there's the fact that when it works, it seems to violate the laws of physics, laws that we thought you just can't violate."

It would be like giving someone from the 1850s a laptop. Even if he's a smart guy, he doesn't know what plastic is. He knows about electricity, but he's never seen a power cord before. Integrated circuits? What are those? Wireless internet card? What's that? He won't know what most of the parts do, let alone know how they work. Even if you took the 100 smartest people on the planet, put them together for 10 years, and gave each one of them a computer, they'd be doing well if one of them could figure out how to turn it on. They just don't have the background.

SolkaTruesilver
01-11-2010, 02:47
It would be like giving someone from the 1850s a laptop. Even if he's a smart guy, he doesn't know what plastic is. He knows about electricity, but he's never seen a power cord before. Integrated circuits? What are those? Wireless internet card? What's that? He won't know what most of the parts do, let alone know how they work. Even if you took the 100 smartest people on the planet, put them together for 10 years, and gave each one of them a computer, they'd be doing well if one of them could figure out how to turn it on. They just don't have the background.

But they might still figure out something about this. Basic things that would improve their already sophisticated technology. Maybe they would figure out some things about plastic, or about electricity. These insights might actually help them get 10-50 years leap. Not ennough to figure out how to reproduce or operate what they have in front of them, but ennough to understand a little more science as a whole.

Giving a basic clue about how the universe works is something that could potentially speed up technological development. Maybe the Tau won't reproduce a Necron technological, but they still might understand more the kind of energy it fires, what's best to defend against, what disrupts it.

ForgottenLore
01-11-2010, 03:09
But they might still figure out something about this. Basic things that would improve their already sophisticated technology. Maybe they would figure out some things about plastic, or about electricity. These insights might actually help them get 10-50 years leap. Not ennough to figure out how to reproduce or operate what they have in front of them, but ennough to understand a little more science as a whole.

Giving a basic clue about how the universe works is something that could potentially speed up technological development. Maybe the Tau won't reproduce a Necron technological, but they still might understand more the kind of energy it fires, what's best to defend against, what disrupts it.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make

massey
01-11-2010, 04:01
But they might still figure out something about this. Basic things that would improve their already sophisticated technology. Maybe they would figure out some things about plastic, or about electricity. These insights might actually help them get 10-50 years leap. Not ennough to figure out how to reproduce or operate what they have in front of them, but ennough to understand a little more science as a whole.

Oh? How? They look at plastic, what do they figure out? "This is something I've never seen before." How is it made? They'd have zero clue, because it's not a science they've developed yet. Seventy or eighty years later, somebody might say "hey, this is a type of plastic". But just seeing the material isn't going to suddenly make them figure something out. They have no frame of reference.


Giving a basic clue about how the universe works is something that could potentially speed up technological development. Maybe the Tau won't reproduce a Necron technological, but they still might understand more the kind of energy it fires, what's best to defend against, what disrupts it.

Sure, they can learn stuff by studying it. No one is contending that they can't. But the original question was why don't they just rip off the Necron's FTL drive. And the answer is because they can't.

SolkaTruesilver
01-11-2010, 04:06
Sure, they can learn stuff by studying it. No one is contending that they can't. But the original question was why don't they just rip off the Necron's FTL drive. And the answer is because they can't.

But I am sure they can still learn something about space travel from those ships that they wouldn't know yet.

I'd say if a race can try to figure it out, the Tau would have the best chance of doing it in the next 1000 years.

flota
01-11-2010, 05:13
I'd say if a race can try to figure it out, the Tau would have the best chance of doing it in the next 1000 years.

dude
how would they understand the inertialess drives?
if the ordo xenos, the one which deals with that hasnt even undertood the flayer, the tau has more chance of the eldar say that they created the ethereals than that (lol)

ForgottenLore
01-11-2010, 05:32
how would they understand the inertialess drives?
if the ordo xenos, the one which deals with that hasnt even undertood the flayer,
Are you suggesting that an imperial faction which couches everything in superstitious ritual and deliberately erases knowledge at the drop of a hat and which is described as not fully understanding how technology works has a better chance at figuring out necron technology than a race described as very high tech and that we are explicitly told actually understands how their technology works and is taking active steps to further that tech?

Necron science might well be completely beyond the understanding of all the other races, but if it isn't then the Tau are the best equipped to decipher it.


the tau has more chance of the eldar say that they created the ethereals than that (lol)
I honestly don't have any idea what this collection of words is trying to say.

MagosHereticus
01-11-2010, 06:30
considering the imperium (a galaxy spanning super empire) only possesses a handful of necron artefacts because of the lethality of necrons and the high fidelity of the phase fail-safe, coupled with the enormous difficulty breaking into tomb worlds which they know exist, i can hardly fathom how the tiny tau empire could fare any better in acquiring enough artefacts to be able to gleam even a minuscule amount of information about necron technology

Stonerhino
01-11-2010, 06:40
The IoM made the C'Tan phase swords work... Just saying.

MagosHereticus
01-11-2010, 07:23
The IoM made the C'Tan phase swords work... Just saying.

not really sure you need to do anything other than hold them

Stonerhino
01-11-2010, 07:34
not really sure you need to do anything other than hold themThey're not aways on. Kind of like a light sabre.

And they don't look very Necrony wrist mounted with cables running back.

MagosHereticus
01-11-2010, 07:45
They're not aways on. Kind of like a light sabre.

And they don't look very Necrony wrist mounted with cables running back.

really? living metal is has different states?

Stonerhino
01-11-2010, 08:25
really? living metal is has different states?Really and just holding it will make it change into it's different states???

Pretty sure that require you to actualy opperate and power the phase sword.

MagosHereticus
01-11-2010, 09:31
Really and just holding it will make it change into it's different states???

Pretty sure that require you to actualy opperate and power the phase sword.

hopefully the second edition assassin codex i bought on ebay will explain all, if it ever arrives

massey
01-11-2010, 10:02
Are you suggesting that an imperial faction which couches everything in superstitious ritual and deliberately erases knowledge at the drop of a hat and which is described as not fully understanding how technology works has a better chance at figuring out necron technology than a race described as very high tech and that we are explicitly told actually understands how their technology works and is taking active steps to further that tech?

Yes. Here's why.

1) The Imperium has the advantage of exposure. They have encountered a significant number of Necron worlds. The Tau have not. They have recovered a significant number of Necron artifacts. The Tau have not.

2) The Imperium has the advantage of experience. The Necron codex alludes to the idea that much of man's technology has its basis in Necron tech. The Admech literally has thousands of years of experience fooling around with Necron technology. From figuring out C'Tan phase swords, to harnessing the power of the Culexus assassin, to studying the pylons on Cadia, humans have been fooling around with Necron tech for a long, long time.

3) The Imperium, for all its ritual and superstition, still manages a significant amount of research and innovation. Yes, the Admech wants to keep people ignorant about technology (it's a power play), but a glance at some of the Ordinatus that they can produce, the viruses they custom engineer, etc., shows that they really do know what they're doing.


Necron science might well be completely beyond the understanding of all the other races, but if it isn't then the Tau are the best equipped to decipher it.


I don't think so. For one, they don't have any Necron tech to examine. Second, they've got little history of reverse engineering alien technology. The most they've managed to do is half-ass copy a warp drive they found crashed in their star system, but they weren't able to properly duplicate it, hence their slower transit times. Remember, this entire time they've been allied with the Kroot, yet they don't know how their Warspheres work.

Sekhmet
01-11-2010, 10:45
hopefully the second edition assassin codex i bought on ebay will explain all, if it ever arrives
I have it. It wont.

Drasanil
01-11-2010, 18:29
Are you suggesting that an imperial faction which couches everything in superstitious ritual and deliberately erases knowledge at the drop of a hat and which is described as not fully understanding how technology works has a better chance at figuring out necron technology than a race described as very high tech and that we are explicitly told actually understands how their technology works and is taking active steps to further that tech?

You're forgetting that despite first appearances, the Imperium is higher tech than the Tau, it simply doesn't filter down to the lower end troops or general populations. The Tau can give all their grunts "super-awesome" gear because logistics isn't an issue for them.

SolkaTruesilver
01-11-2010, 18:38
You're forgetting that despite first appearances, the Imperium is higher tech than the Tau, it simply doesn't filter down to the lower end troops or general populations. The Tau can give all their grunts "super-awesome" gear because logistics isn't an issue for them.

Funny. I'd think that having unlimited ressources would make logistic easier, compared to having only about 20 worlds.

Drasanil
01-11-2010, 18:58
Funny. I'd think that having unlimited ressources would make logistic easier, compared to having only about 20 worlds.

The Imperium has near-unlimited manpower, making sure that man power has the weapons, the food and the proper support it needs to actually do anything remotely usefull is an entirely different matter. Why do you think lasguns are the most popular weapons around despite the fact they aren't all that great? Because they run on virtually anything you can chuck 'em into a camp fire and recharge them, try doing that with a Tau Pulse Rifle.

ForgottenLore
01-11-2010, 19:40
1) The Imperium has the advantage of exposure. They have encountered a significant number of Necron worlds. The Tau have not. They have recovered a significant number of Necron artifacts. The Tau have not.
That is a COMPLETELY different issue than whether they COULD decipher the tech or whether they would gain any benefit from such a study.

The Necron codex alludes to the idea that much of man's technology has its basis in Necron tech.The codex alludes to the possibility that the admech's cult of technology is inspired by a C'Tan. Apart from a couple of specific devices nothing suggests mankind's technology "has its basis" in necron tech.

The Admech literally has thousands of years of experience fooling around with Necron technology.
The first recorded contact with these mysterious aliens was in 897.M41
While no doubt they have found scraps over the millenia they have only been actively, regularly encountering necrons for a few years. I also remember reading how some factions of the the AdMech deliberately destroy recovered necron tech as heretical.


The Imperium, for all its ritual and superstition, still manages a significant amount of research and innovation.The limit of Imperial innovation is a weapon swap on a tank, and even that sometimes results in executions for tech heresy. For them "innovation" is finding another STC. All of the high tech devices in the Imperium are said to be relic designs left over from the Dark Age of Technology built using Standard Template Constructs, which were deliberately designed to practically build themselves and require virtually no technical know how.

Literally, GW drives home over and over again that the imperium, even the AdMech really has no idea how their technology works.



Speaking of Tau now

I don't think so. For one, they don't have any Necron tech to examine. Again, that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they would be capable of meaningful research.

Second, they've got little history of reverse engineering alien technology. The most they've managed to do is half-ass copy a warp drive they found crashed in their star system, but they weren't able to properly duplicate it, hence their slower transit times. They found a crashed, broken warp drive early in their first explorations of their star system, so about where we are now, and in just a few years had a working prototype despite the fact that the technology required a genetic characteristic their species lacks. They not only reverse engineeded the non-functioning tech, they reverse engineered biology they had never encountered before and produced a work around for it. THAT's why the slow transit times


Remember, this entire time they've been allied with the Kroot, yet they don't know how their Warspheres work.The Kroot are described as deliberately hiding how their FTL technology works. The Tau can't press the issue to much if they want to keep the Kroot as allies.

flota
02-11-2010, 01:36
Are you suggesting that an imperial faction which couches everything in superstitious ritual and deliberately erases knowledge at the drop of a hat and which is described as not fully understanding how technology works has a better chance at figuring out necron technology than a race described as very high tech and that we are explicitly told actually understands how their technology works and is taking active steps to further that tech?


the ordo xenos are not a bunch of fanatics.
as its been suggested its a power-play

and i apologize for my english... im a bit rusty :P

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 06:17
The codex alludes to the possibility that the admech's cult of technology is inspired by a C'Tan. Apart from a couple of specific devices nothing suggests mankind's technology "has its basis" in necron tech.

i tend to agree, i think it is just a fan conspiracy theory considering that the it does not at all reconcile with any other information we have about the golden age of technology or the scope of pre-strike technology, consider that navigators and warp engines were both the products of human science to allow for space exploration with no evidence that faster than light technology of any other kind was even conceived or employed

Carlos
02-11-2010, 11:52
Mankind's technology is based on ignorance. They understand that a machine works and how it operates (Input > Process > Output) but they have difficulty understanding why it works. Its like your Gran and her TV: She knows inherently that pressing the appropriate buttons cause various actions and that TV shows are beamed to her set, but she doesn't understand and cannot understand RF waves or a how an LCD panel functions on a chemical level.
The entire Imperium is like this. They understand how to use the tech, but not how its internals work.

Tau are more like the Apple of 40k. They design and build and innovate with new ideas and new software. The Earth caste are basically a whole society of Designers, Researchers, Engineers, Builders and Mechanics. They are set Design Briefs by the Ethereal caste like 'Make this faster' 'Increase energy output' 'We need better close support firepower' or 'improve Agri-drone efficiency' and they spend their entire lives doing just that.

To say Tau have inferior tech to the Imperium is a joke when they still use wheels on their tanks.

SolkaTruesilver
02-11-2010, 12:17
To say Tau have inferior tech to the Imperium is a joke when they still use wheels on their tanks.

I think the argument made about that is that it's easier to build wheels for the 5,000,000,000 tanks the Imperium use than an antigrav unit.

As opposed to the 2,000 tanks used by the Tau.

Also, the distance between the manufacturing capacity and the field operations is much, much bigger in the Imperium than in the Tau Confederacy. So it's harder to repare fancy technology for the Imperium than the Tau when it breaks down. Easier to repare a wheel than an antigrav unit, eh?

I guess I can roughly get behind that argument. Compare to the high tech stuff the Space Marines are using would be a better comparative between the technological capacity of both parties.

I still think the Tau have a better potential overall, even if they have "merely" about 38,000 years of handicap compared to Humanity.

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 12:41
Mankind's technology is based on ignorance. They understand that a machine works and how it operates (Input > Process > Output) but they have difficulty understanding why it works. Its like your Gran and her TV: She knows inherently that pressing the appropriate buttons cause various actions and that TV shows are beamed to her set, but she doesn't understand and cannot understand RF waves or a how an LCD panel functions on a chemical level.
The entire Imperium is like this. They understand how to use the tech, but not how its internals work.

the imperium is like that yes, and even the lower ranks of the mechanicus are like that, the horrifying truth though that has been hinted over the years is the magos ranks and higher know damned well how and why technology works but conspire against humanity to keep this knowledge to themselves so that their immense power is never diluted


Tau are more like the Apple of 40k. They design and build and innovate with new ideas and new software. The Earth caste are basically a whole society of Designers, Researchers, Engineers, Builders and Mechanics. They are set Design Briefs by the Ethereal caste like 'Make this faster' 'Increase energy output' 'We need better close support firepower' or 'improve Agri-drone efficiency' and they spend their entire lives doing just that.

a single magos might know more about technology, machines and the laws of physics than the combined population of the entire tau empire, many of them have lived for as long as the tau empire itself has existed, there are hints that some of the ruling priests on mars are effectively immortal and have lived for thousands of years (and are now quite insane)


To say Tau have inferior tech to the Imperium is a joke when they still use wheels on their tanks.

the germans discovered in the battle of britain the folly of over designing warmachines, the spit fire couple be patched up in a field with some tools and knowledge of engines, mechanical problems with the Bf 109 required that the aircraft be sent back to the factory for repair, and lets not forget the problems faced by the precision engineers engines used in tanks during the invasion of the soviet union (the metal contraction due to cold weather rendering many tanks inoperable), the simpler more rugged t-34s prevailed (and benefited from able to be produced on a much larger scale)

never judge a book by its cover

Hellebore
02-11-2010, 12:42
Humanity has a wider bell curve of tech levels to choose from. The Tau have a high level with little spread on either side. Thus the Imperium has within its posession far more advanced tech than the tau, but its utilisation is in a smaller percentage of the population.

Hellebore

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 12:47
Humanity has a wider bell curve of tech levels to choose from. The Tau have a high level with little spread on either side. Thus the Imperium has within its posession far more advanced tech than the tau, but its utilisation is in a smaller percentage of the population.

Hellebore

i hate the phrase tech levels... knowledge doesnt work like that, it' not a development tree like we see in starcraft or C&C but that's getting OT i guess

SolkaTruesilver
02-11-2010, 12:51
i hate the phrase tech levels... knowledge doesnt work like that, it' not a development tree like we see in starcraft or C&C but that's getting OT i guess

How about a rephrase?

The average available technology understood and used by the masses of the Tau Confederacy is more sophisticated and efficient than what's available in the Imperium.

But the best Imperium Technomancers could easily run circles around the Earth Cast. Too bad they are locked into political games and are very limited in what they can do with said knowledge, rather than reproduce it and spread it across the Imperium.

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 13:04
How about a rephrase?

The average available technology understood and used by the masses of the Tau Confederacy is more sophisticated and efficient than what's available in the Imperium.

But the best Imperium Technomancers could easily run circles around the Earth Cast. Too bad they are locked into political games and are very limited in what they can do with said knowledge, rather than reproduce it and spread it across the Imperium.

oh they freely use and abuse the tech at their disposal, the only real limitation is that sharing the tech and teaching the masses would involve almost certain death instigated by their peers, i only wish more would have been written Gryphonne IV and the war against HF leviathan, as it makes reference to the magi of that world unleashing their pet projects in defence of their world

Hellebore
02-11-2010, 13:07
Level/range/scale/sophistication/advancement/quality. It's a simple shorthand.

On a scale of 1-10, the imperium can provide technology at any point in it. However the majority population would sit in the 1-5 range, while a minority would have access to 6-8 and a tiny sliver 9-10.

The tau might only be able to produce something at the 8 level maximum, but a greater majority of their population has access to it.

Of course, given the shear size of the imperium, their examples of advanced 10 probably still outnumber the most advanced pieces of tau tech available. Force weapons for example are extremely rare and sophisticated pieces of technology, but if you go off just the number of space marine librarians with them in 40k you're looking at numbers in the tens of millions (assuming each chapter has tens of librarians).

Earth today doesn't produce super advanced pieces of tech in those numbers.

The Tau have a higher standard of living with consistently better tech when compared percentagewise to the imperium. I'd certainly rather live in the Tau empire than the Imperium. It'd be like the technology difference between the western world and the developing world. Only the richest and most powerful in the developing world have access to the technology we take for granted in the western world.

Hellebore

Polaria
02-11-2010, 13:39
But the best Imperium Technomancers could easily run circles around the Earth Cast. Too bad they are locked into political games and are very limited in what they can do with said knowledge, rather than reproduce it and spread it across the Imperium.

I'm not sure if Adeptus Mechanicus can produce even half of the very top technological marvels they have in their disposal. Several sources indicate that a good part of the "pinnacle" technology in Imperium is actually xeno artefacts that were quietly "whitewashed" into "holy archeotech". Deathwatch RPG mentions that Imperium can't reproduce EMP grenades and the ones in use are actually a mix of haywire/EMP warheads captured from Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar. In addition at least Digital Weapons and C'Tan Blades are surely of xeno origin... and a good case could be made for stasis technology and vortex warheads even though I'm not sure they are ever expressly stated to be of xeno origin.



The tau might only be able to produce something at the 8 level maximum, but a greater majority of their population has access to it.

Actually I don't think we know this. We can assume it, basing on the flowery-goody-goodness description of the Tau Empire in fluff, but I'm not sure we have any surefire source from fluff saying that Tau population has, on the average, better access to high-end technology than Imperials do.



Force weapons for example are extremely rare and sophisticated pieces of technology, but if you go off just the number of space marine librarians with them in 40k you're looking at numbers in the tens of millions (assuming each chapter has tens of librarians).

30 librarians for each 1000 chapters only means 30 000 force weapons. Thats like one for every Imperial Sector! Bloody rare stuff, I'd say...

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 13:52
30 librarians for each 1000 chapters only means 30 000 force weapons. Thats like one for every Imperial Sector! Bloody rare stuff, I'd say...

not so rare once you realise that librarians are not the only ones armed with them, who knows how many Scholastia Psykana trained battle psykers marching to war under the imperial banner if there are primus psykers at the disposal of company commanders

SolkaTruesilver
02-11-2010, 14:11
not so rare once you realise that librarians are not the only ones armed with them, who knows how many Scholastia Psykana trained battle psykers marching to war under the imperial banner if there are primus psykers at the disposal of company commanders

not that much. And why would all of them be armed with the kind of technology you mention? Just because it's the optimal weapon choice doesn't mean the IG have it standarised across the board.

MagosHereticus
02-11-2010, 14:26
not that much. And why would all of them be armed with the kind of technology you mention? Just because it's the optimal weapon choice doesn't mean the IG have it standarised across the board.

the IG have detached pyskers but their equipment and deployment is at the leisure of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and codex imperial guard gives a pretty good idea of their standard equipment, of which a force weapon is included

it seems to me that you are just gainsaying :confused:

SolkaTruesilver
02-11-2010, 14:44
the IG have detached pyskers but their equipment and deployment is at the leisure of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and codex imperial guard gives a pretty good idea of their standard equipment, of which a force weapon is included

it seems to me that you are just gainsaying :confused:

wait, it's a Force Sword, or one of those fancy psykic sword that allows auto-kill on a successful psykic roll?

Edit: Nevermind. Me stupid brain confused Force Sword and Power Sword.

Me tink it' stoopiz tuu uz sientik termz far weeponz namez!

Carlos
02-11-2010, 16:30
How about a rephrase?

The average available technology understood and used by the masses of the Tau Confederacy is more sophisticated and efficient than what's available in the Imperium.

But the best Imperium Technomancers could easily run circles around the Earth Cast. Too bad they are locked into political games and are very limited in what they can do with said knowledge, rather than reproduce it and spread it across the Imperium.

Quite true, but the Imperium has had the same level of technological prowess for ten millennia. Imperial technology is easy to produce on a mass scale and in some cases a lot more advanced (Power Armour vs XV8 being one example) but their genetic manipulation was created by the Emperor and scientists long dead and even now if a chapter loses part of its gene seed it has no way to get it back.

Where the Mechanicus horde their knowledge and revere it like a God the Tau seek to constantly improve their technology with new ideas and approaches.

Give the Tau another 30k years and they'll be outstripping the Eldar in terms of technology.

massey
03-11-2010, 02:35
Quite true, but the Imperium has had the same level of technological prowess for ten millennia. Imperial technology is easy to produce on a mass scale and in some cases a lot more advanced (Power Armour vs XV8 being one example) but their genetic manipulation was created by the Emperor and scientists long dead and even now if a chapter loses part of its gene seed it has no way to get it back.

Where the Mechanicus horde their knowledge and revere it like a God the Tau seek to constantly improve their technology with new ideas and approaches.

Give the Tau another 30k years and they'll be outstripping the Eldar in terms of technology.

If they could maintain their current rate of development, sure. Whether they can or not remains to be seen.

The Imperium, and the Eldar as well, to a certain extent, are running around in a post-apocalyptic universe. They're living amidst the ruins of what they once had. Once upon a time, humans built cities that floated in the clouds, guns that reversed gravity, televisions that could see into other dimensions (where you could watch the good version of Star Wars Episode I), and power rings that were fueled by your willpower. That knowledge has now been forgotten by all but a few.

There are still pockets of development going on in the Imperium, hidden places where research continues and mad scientists pursue their own pet experiments, heedless of the affairs of the rest of the galaxy. They produce techno-artifacts that are far beyond the abilities or comprehension of the Tau. Occasionally they will dole out these weapons to other agencies in the Imperium, usually due to some long-standing protection agreement. Space Marine Chapter X responds to any calls for aid for a century, and in exchange you supply them with 3 vortex grenades. These guys have crazy Reed Richards technology just laying around, but they don't intend to share unless they have to.

The Tau, on the other hand, are still on the upswing. They are where humans were twenty thousand years ago, and where Eldar were a million years before that. They haven't made their power rings or floating cities yet. They don't know how. So in that sense, the Imperium has tech advantage all over the Tau. But unlike the Imperium, the Tau don't horde their tech. You don't have to go beg Reed Richards to lend you a molecular transmogrifier just so you can stop some rampaging hive fleet. You just look up how to build one on the Inter-Tau-Net. After all, the Greater Good says it will be better if everyone had access to the best technology.

The Tau are basically using the best tech they have. And that tech is way ahead of the stuff commonly available to regular soldiers in the Imperium. But you don't have to worry that some Earth caste guy is going to whip out a Noisy Cricket or an Ultimate Nullifier and blow your starfleet away. They don't have that stuff.

Necron tech? The guys who study that in the Imperium are the ones with the Wave Motion codpiece guns and the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators. They're the only ones with a hope of understanding it. The Tau don't have any equivalents. You have to study MAD SCIENCE! to understand Necron stuff. The Tau just study regular science. Earth caste members don't sit in ancient castles laughing maniacally and shouting "It's Alive!!!" while lightning crashes about them.

Death Whisper
03-11-2010, 03:02
Necron tech? The guys who study that in the Imperium are the ones with the Wave Motion codpiece guns and the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators. They're the only ones with a hope of understanding it. The Tau don't have any equivalents. You have to study MAD SCIENCE! to understand Necron stuff. The Tau just study regular science. Earth caste members don't sit in ancient castles laughing maniacally and shouting "It's Alive!!!" while lightning crashes about them.

What about the Necrontyr themselves? I'm pretty sure they would be relatively dour and not adherents of mad science. Frivolous maniacal laughing would probably have just resulted in a short, wasted life, instead of a short, scientifically productive life for the average Necrontyr scientist.

MagosHereticus
03-11-2010, 03:33
What about the Necrontyr themselves? I'm pretty sure they would be relatively dour and not adherents of mad science. Frivolous maniacal laughing would probably have just resulted in a short, wasted life, instead of a short, scientifically productive life for the average Necrontyr scientist.

all the good stuff was taught to them by ancient star vampires

massey
03-11-2010, 04:24
What about the Necrontyr themselves? I'm pretty sure they would be relatively dour and not adherents of mad science. Frivolous maniacal laughing would probably have just resulted in a short, wasted life, instead of a short, scientifically productive life for the average Necrontyr scientist.

It's science with heavy Lovecraftian overtones, the sort of stuff that "Man was not meant to know". In this case, "Man" includes Tau. Since the Necrontyr were an ancient bad-guy race, and they're crazy anyway, they get to just be primordial evil,

flota
03-11-2010, 05:08
all the good stuff was taught to them by ancient star vampires

all hail the Cītan!!:skull:

Hellebore
03-11-2010, 06:06
Actually I don't think we know this. We can assume it, basing on the flowery-goody-goodness description of the Tau Empire in fluff, but I'm not sure we have any surefire source from fluff saying that Tau population has, on the average, better access to high-end technology than Imperials do.


afaik the description of earth caste workers etc was that they had personal anti grav carriers (modified gun drones effectively) and that AI was prevalent throughout the entire empire, not just in the military.

The descriptions of average tau life in Kill Team paints them as far more 'western middle class' than the average Imperial underhiver (which, populationwise, is probably the largest proportion of Imperial population), which is more '19th century British industrial revolution sardine can/distopian gothic cyberpunk'.



30 librarians for each 1000 chapters only means 30 000 force weapons. Thats like one for every Imperial Sector! Bloody rare stuff, I'd say...

:eek: Wow, that was a brainfart and a half. I even looked it over 3 times before posting and somehow failed to even notice that. 30,000 force weapons, plus the inquisitorial and astra telepathica force weapons; as the Calixis sector's battle psykers require the building of their own force weapon as entry, they aren't that rare or such an organisation wouldn't be so 'mundane'.

But yes, probably not in the millions. Still more than the number of say tau ion blasters imo.


Hellebore

MagosHereticus
03-11-2010, 07:24
why are force weapons being held up as an example of high tech? they are really just a shaped and tuned antenna for the psyker using it, it doesnt have any moving parts or complex circuitry, it doesnt even have its own power source, it's about as sophisticated as orthopaedic foot wear (which i am not belittling) the rarity of psykers able to use it and raw materials are much more a problem than that of it's design

MagosHereticus
03-11-2010, 07:28
:eek: Wow, that was a brainfart and a half. I even looked it over 3 times before posting and somehow failed to even notice that. 30,000 force weapons, plus the inquisitorial and astra telepathica force weapons; as the Calixis sector's battle psykers require the building of their own force weapon as entry, they aren't that rare or such an organisation wouldn't be so 'mundane'.

But yes, probably not in the millions. Still more than the number of say tau ion blasters imo.


Hellebore

i'm not so sure, the would have been countless battle psykers (librarians included) over the 10 millennia of the imperium's existence, each one would likely need a force weapon, and as far as we know they are not recyclable because each one is attuned to it's users mind, there are probably vast vaults in each chapter full of useless force weapons from deceased librarians

Polaria
03-11-2010, 07:33
afaik the description of earth caste workers etc was that they had personal anti grav carriers (modified gun drones effectively) and that AI was prevalent throughout the entire empire, not just in the military.

The descriptions of average tau life in Kill Team paints them as far more 'western middle class' than the average Imperial underhiver (which, populationwise, is probably the largest proportion of Imperial population), which is more '19th century British industrial revolution sardine can/distopian gothic cyberpunk'.

I think its also a difference between ideologies. Tau ideology seems to be a strange mix of suppression of individualism where everyone must sacrifice their own wishes and individualism to "Greater Good" (which is decided by exclusive Ethereal caste). On the other hand the individual is then granted access to "personal" high-technology like the anti-grav thingies and AIs you mentioned.

In Imperium it works strangely another way around. Imperium offers surprising amount of personal freedom in theory, but it is suppressed in practice by the lack of opportunities and lack of personal material possessions. On the other hand all Imperial citizens benefit to one degree or another from huge amount of "communal" high-techology. A good example of this is the Forge Worlds. Whereas Tau Empire would have to colonize several planets and put billions of earth caste to work in the factories Imperium has Forge Worlds which are automatic to such a degree that there is only a few living souls required to run it all.



But yes, probably not in the millions. Still more than the number of say tau ion blasters imo.

True, but then the number of Tau in the universe is small enough to be almost irrelevant in the galaxy. I mean they have what... few dozen worlds total? Basically Empire colonizes several sectors for each Tau world...

ForgottenLore
03-11-2010, 15:26
True, but then the number of Tau in the universe is small enough to be almost irrelevant in the galaxy. I mean they have what... few dozen worlds total? Basically Empire colonizes several sectors for each Tau world...

My understanding is that the Tau have a couple dozen Septs. Each Sept being a major, fully developed world on par with modern, real world Earth in terms of population and industrial capability. They also have innumerable smaller colonies and outposts, to say nothing of the homeworlds of many client races which would also be major manufacturing centers in a lot of cases (though not research centers)

SolkaTruesilver
03-11-2010, 15:38
(though not research centers)

Why not?

The Tau have adapted and research technology for the Kroots and Vespid, and they are tentatively trying to understand the FTL drives of some of their allied races. I am sure they are promoting research in their client race, with some supervision to make sure this research in integrated into the Greater Good as soon as possible.

The Tau are limited, ressource-wise. Which means they can't afford to pass the research base and alien perspective of their client race.

ForgottenLore
03-11-2010, 19:53
Yeah, maybe. Its an arguable point at least.

I was thinking along the lines of Tau limiting allied access to their technology and so they wouldn't want someone developing weapons they might withhold and turn on the Tau.

SolkaTruesilver
03-11-2010, 20:00
Yeah, maybe. Its an arguable point at least.

I was thinking along the lines of Tau limiting allied access to their technology and so they wouldn't want someone developing weapons they might withhold and turn on the Tau.

Which is why I give the excuse about "under supervision, making sure the technology is integrated quickly in the Greater Good"

massey
03-11-2010, 20:24
They probably have research centers all over the place. You know, a little lab someplace that studies space dust or something. Real high-level weapon development would be done very close to home. It's where the money is, after all.

SolkaTruesilver
03-11-2010, 20:32
They probably have research centers all over the place. You know, a little lab someplace that studies space dust or something. Real high-level weapon development would be done very close to home. It's where the Greater Good is, after all.

Fixed for you

massey
03-11-2010, 21:11
As long as the Greater Good involves the right people sailing around in a yacht, sure. ;)

SolkaTruesilver
03-11-2010, 21:21
As long as the Greater Good involves the right people sailing around in a yacht, sure. ;)

For some reason, I have no trouble believing the Tau would gladly give that sort of treatment ad nauseam if somebody delivered them the basics of Terminator Armours or Power Fists.

Polaria
03-11-2010, 21:34
My understanding is that the Tau have a couple dozen Septs. Each Sept being a major, fully developed world on par with modern, real world Earth in terms of population and industrial capability. They also have innumerable smaller colonies and outposts, to say nothing of the homeworlds of many client races which would also be major manufacturing centers in a lot of cases (though not research centers)

Tau Codex lists 1st Phase Colonies (8 worlds), 2nd Phase Colonies (7 worlds) and 3rd Phase Colonies (2 worlds). It also gives a location and a sort of map of "Tau Space" which is hardly the size of single Imperial sector. So even if the listed 17 worlds were just the major ones and they controlled a single sector of several hundred worlds totally Imperium would still outnumber them by a minimum of 10 000 to 1 in number of worlds. Also, if Tau major worlds are "on par with modern earth" it makes them near insignificant on Imperial scale. A single highly developed Hive World in Imperium can easily have several hundred billion inhabitants.

ForgottenLore
03-11-2010, 22:08
The Tau Empire codex says (on p10)

"The Empire now encompasses over 20 Septs - fully developed Tau systems - and a large number of vassal alien homeworlds." Which are "fully integrated in to the empire"

It also says Tau space is astrographically small but contains many hundreds of star systems and that an "unusually high proportion" of them are capable of supporting life.

So make what you will of "fully developed Tau system" but they certainly have many more settlements of notable size beyond just those septs.

Polaria
04-11-2010, 06:42
Okay, so the Tau empire is not miniscular, but in the scale of whole galaxy it is still irrelevantly small. Couple of hundred (or even couple of thousand) systems still don't make them bigger than a few Imperial sectors put together.

The Imperial problem with Tau is that they aren't big or powerfull enough to be mind-blowingly dangerous "you-have-to-do-something-right-now!" kind of threat like Tyranids or an ongoing Chaos crusade. But if you let them run unchecked long enough they will spread like cancer and next thing you know we got Tau Marines worshipping the Greater Good in the ruins of Imperial palace in Terra...

Just because they have an army doesn't mean they are a major player. Player, yes, and mayb, just maybe a major player in future, but as of now the only major players (still) remain Imperium, Chaos, Tyranids and Orks. Eldar and Tau are too few, Dark Eldar are too messed up and Necrons are too much into sleeping to matter right now. The difference between minor players is that Eldar and Dark Eldar will probably never get back up, Tau will breed and fill the damn galaxy with Greater Good if nothing is done... As for Necrons, well, there is basically two chances: Either not enough survived the War in Heavens and long sleep to make difference now... or many are still sleeping and everyone better start praying they won't ever wake up.

Carlos
05-11-2010, 10:03
Given that Necron tech enables them to manipulate realspace and other Dimensions on a Timelord-scale one tomb world could easily hold untold TRILLIONS of Necron Warriors. To put it bluntly they could maybe outnumber the Tyranids.

As for Tau? They might not have the massive numbers Humanity and Orks have but just like Eldar, their threat is more insideous, almost political. Remember the Eldar shifted the balance of Ork power in favour of Ghazkull so he would pound Armageddon. Billions of humans and Orks have died due to the actions of 30-40 Eldar.
Tau technology has been found as far west as Necromunda. It is reasonable their politics and influence could also have come this far.

Shamana
05-11-2010, 15:36
Why "almost?" The Tau are a political threat to the Imperium. Alone of all Imperial enemies they offer humans an alternative political power to join - at least one that does not involve deamons taking their world over or mass sacrifices. An imperial world would fight to the death against orks or tyrannids, because they have no choice. Against Tau, surrender - or defection - suddenly become viable options.

Sephiroth
05-11-2010, 15:45
Tau Empire is about a hundred worlds, in an area of about 300lys. That's a little larger than an Imperial Sector average (200lys) and a lot more worlds packed into it.

That said, I'd still expand it if GW is going to insist on throwing Space Marine Crusades at it willy-nilly. :p

SolkaTruesilver
05-11-2010, 15:47
Why "almost?" The Tau are a political threat to the Imperium. Alone of all Imperial enemies they offer humans an alternative political power to join - at least one that does not involve deamons taking their world over or mass sacrifices. An imperial world would fight to the death against orks or tyrannids, because they have no choice. Against Tau, surrender - or defection - suddenly become viable options.

But, as many Imperial regiments/fleet found out when facing Necrons or Tyranids by their side, the Tau can also be viable and reliable allies that will fight for the victory of all on their side. They won't actively try to screw you over like any other faction of the 'Verse, or even within the Imperium itself.

The Tau are probably the only faction that would be a viable and good idea to have normalised diplomatic relations, to prevent further Imperial World from switching from the Imperium to the Tau, and in exhange, the Empire could accept trade goods from the Tau, and a mutual defense pact.

Oh, wait. Nevermind. I forgot "grimdark"

kng229
05-11-2010, 15:52
i seem to remember an inquisitor powering and activating a necron monolith found deep within a space hulk, causing warriors to spill out of it's portal and forcing the captain in orbit around the hulk to open fire on the inquisitors position

i would assume it would take considerable understanding and insight to activate such a portal, so admech have made progress

I remember the story too, the commissar sat safely in the Imperial ship with all the weapons trained on the hulk while the inquisitor waited for the portal to open. Necrons came out, inquisitor popped one or two with his bolt pistol, then got his skin stripped off. Then the commissar vaporized everything :D

I don't remember the mechanism of how it was activated very well. IIRC, it basically involved running a current through it and increasing the power until something happened.

MagosHereticus
05-11-2010, 16:08
I remember the story too, the commissar sat safely in the Imperial ship with all the weapons trained on the hulk while the inquisitor waited for the portal to open. Necrons came out, inquisitor popped one or two with his bolt pistol, then got his skin stripped off. Then the commissar vaporized everything :D

I don't remember the mechanism of how it was activated very well. IIRC, it basically involved running a current through it and increasing the power until something happened.

i believe that is probably the best way to find out how something works ie turn it on

can back fire though...

Lord Damocles
05-11-2010, 17:52
I remember the story too, the commissar sat safely in the Imperial ship with all the weapons trained on the hulk while the inquisitor waited for the portal to open. Necrons came out, inquisitor popped one or two with his bolt pistol, then got his skin stripped off. Then the commissar vaporized everything :D

I don't remember the mechanism of how it was activated very well. IIRC, it basically involved running a current through it and increasing the power until something happened.
Codex: Necrons, pg.10.


The Monolith is [re]activated by connecting it to a working reactor aboard the space hulk Unholy Harbringer.