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Torpedo Vegas
30-10-2010, 03:21
Having more or less decided on my list, which is here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280902
I'm left to decide which lore my wizard will take for the tourney, and I have to stick with it throughout.

Shadow has several great spells for weakening my opponents and bringing them on par with my average at best empire units, and pit of shades is great for getting rid of any Stanks or other nasty things like that, and Occam's Mindrazor boosting my Flaggelants would be killer. However, there will be loads of Elves, and all those Ldr and It tests aren't really an issue for them.

Life gives me excellent buffs and lets me regent units, and Dwellers will take care of low strength units (Skaven, elves, more Skaven).

However, Metal lets me deal with Armor Heavy enemies (WoC, Dorfs), as well as offering buffs in the form of Glittering Robe, Enchanted Blades, and lets me ruin armor (of course) and Final Transmutation lets me hurt the toughest guys out there.

My A. Lector gives me access to all of LoLight, and my Warrior Priests have their prayers for unit support. So, I ask you, which seems the most effective for all-comers?

sulla
30-10-2010, 04:17
Metal doesn't really let you deal with high armour armies. The signature spell does an average of 4 wounds vs shieldbearing warriors on the 20+ casting... That's exceptionally poor value. You would be as well off casting pit or purple sun on them.

For empire, I would probably suggest shadow. Miasma to slow the enemy while you blast them, withering to help your mortars melt them, enfeebling foe or occam's to help once they make it to combat. Pit for blasting hellcannons, trolls and dwarven artillery/blocks.

Or you might just want to take life and double steam tanks and buff them back to full health every magic phase...

theorox
30-10-2010, 07:58
Shadow, because Life is cheesy and boring. :p

Theo

DivineVisitor
30-10-2010, 10:27
Went for Life on my own Empire, toughness boosts, regeneration and a damage doing shield for combat, dwellers for the big units with low strength values, regenerating Steam Tanks, Knights and whatever else, 2+ ward against Miscasts with Throne and a magic missile. Nice.

Though i'd love to try out Shadow's Mindrazor and the WS/Initiative 10 spell from Light on a unit :evilgrin:

russellmoo
30-10-2010, 15:43
Take shadow- as even elves are going to be greatly weakened by mistifying miasma- i.e. hitting on 4's or 5's is way worse than re-rollable 3+

Plus there is also enfeebling and withering- both of these spells are useful against any army-

Spiney Norman
30-10-2010, 16:29
Metal doesn't really let you deal with high armour armies. The signature spell does an average of 4 wounds vs shieldbearing warriors on the 20+ casting... That's exceptionally poor value. You would be as well off casting pit or purple sun on them.

For empire, I would probably suggest shadow. Miasma to slow the enemy while you blast them, withering to help your mortars melt them, enfeebling foe or occam's to help once they make it to combat. Pit for blasting hellcannons, trolls and dwarven artillery/blocks.

Or you might just want to take life and double steam tanks and buff them back to full health every magic phase...

I disagree, the metal sig spell might be less powerful than purple sun you're talking about comparing the sig spell of one lore with the most OP'd spell in the whole game. Besides which shieldbearing warriors are hardly the optimum target of that spell, the metal sig spell is primarily intended to remove threats like heavy cavalry etc, dependent on the enemy army purple sun can be virtually ineffective (note HE and DE).

IMHO Metal is the best all-purpose lore for Empire, Shadow is good and has a lot of neat tricks, but there are several turkey spells. Metal only really has one turkey (hounds) and thats easily transferred out. Metal also has an impressive array of different types of spells, great buffs, hexes, direct damage, and a hit-all-models-in-unit spell.

The ability to give swordsmen a 3+ sv or permanently erode you foe's armour save is great, and the chances are your enemy will stockpile dice to combat transmutation if you've got it, which would hopefully allow you to get some of the more subtle buffs/hexes through.

IMHO Beasts is a better lore than shadow, although maybe not in this case since you only have one combat hero on foot.

Life is generally touted as te best all-round lore, and in the hands of a Slann it surely is, but for an Empire wizard lord where you're limited to 4 spells (one of which really needs to be throne of vines to make the rest of the lore work) you're limited because the sole purpose of one of the 4 spells you can cast every turn is to power up the rest of them.

With a poor WoM roll you might not have the dice to cast thrones and another spell, which leaves life slightly lacking.

Torpedo Vegas
30-10-2010, 18:00
Went for Life on my own Empire, toughness boosts, regeneration and a damage doing shield for combat, dwellers for the big units with low strength values, regenerating Steam Tanks, Knights and whatever else, 2+ ward against Miscasts with Throne and a magic missile. Nice.

Though i'd love to try out Shadow's Mindrazor and the WS/Initiative 10 spell from Light on a unit :evilgrin:

Imagine I10/WS10 flaggalents. Yeah, they are brutal on the charge.

Rajhald
30-10-2010, 20:33
Ive been running light on my Lizardmen, making them almost broken. Ran Life for a while and then Light one game to just to see and Loved it. WS10/I10 ASF, +1 attack to everything in 10 inches is gross. And with the slann I always have enough dice or high enough casting to get if all off. Not saying Life isn't good, but with Light my army is just so much more brutal in combat.

Torpedo Vegas
30-10-2010, 21:36
I already get the entire Lore of Light from my War Altar, so I don't need another Light wizard.

EnternalVoid
01-11-2010, 01:33
You might still want to consider the Lore of Light, or at least think about it. Consider this;

With a light mage in addition to the Altar you have two sources for the light spells and twice they have to dispel it if they don't want that spell going off. Also the Altar can only do the low level versions and it can only do one spell a turn. Now having the light mage can make Banishment from the Altar better, as it would be Strength 5 hits. Also you can have a second source of Light of Battle and Timewarp, or even Phas protection.

Also if I remember right, buffs can stack. While Light of Battle and Timewarp are not nessarily the best to try and stack, Phas protection might be an option.

It also gives you the option to take a simple range attack as the default spell which is also a Flaming Attack if you need it. Sure doing the upgraded version makes it a 15+ to cast but with a Lv4 that should not be to hard. And worthwhile to nail a Hydra with. The Burning Gaze followed by the Altar doing Banishment could do serious damage to a Hydra and possible kill it.

That said, of your three options I would heavily consider Shadow. Mindrazor is nice, but Whithering might be useful too with reduce the toughness of units before your Mortar and Handgunners hit them. Nothing like taking the toughness of skaven or goblins to 1 before putting that huge template on their heads. Even knocking a point or two off Chaos warriors give you a much better chance of wounding them. Also the default spell can give your units a better chance at hitting them or slowing down deathstars. If you can even take one point of WS off Chaos warriors your Flagellents can hit them on a 4+. Also the spells tend to be easier to cast so you can try to get more off. While Withering is not as powerful as Mind Razor, it is still a good choice as you can insure you get that 2+ to wound for your Flagellents and maybe your handguns and mortars.

LAV-Kitsune-
01-11-2010, 09:09
I would add some more about lore of metal and just how good it works for empire. Spiney Norman said it is ideal against cavalry, but not only that it really shines against many big monsters! 2D6 hits that wound on 4+ against hydras and hydra doesnt get regeneration and it usually wounds dragons even better. So it is also one of the best monster killing spells.

Flesh to stone may seem great, especially with upgraded version, but with same combined casting value of flesh to stone and throne of vines you could cast glittering robe to ALL units within 12". Flesh to stone gives nice bonus, but especially against S3 foes if all your 6+ armors jump to 4+ it gives alot better results than buffing just one unit. Not only that, Life provides no good offensive combat buffs compared to metall. Enchanted blades of Aiban on a 20+ big unit of crossbows adds nice amount of kills and when your troops get to combat it helps to balance out weak combat abilities of the empire. It gets even better if you combine it with transmutation of lead.

And the the massdestruction spell of the lore, Final transmutation is veeery underrated. Dwellers is almost always cast on its higher value because of its sucky range. Transmutation has alot longer range and cheaper casting cost. Even at higher level its casting cost is same as Dwellers first level one and range is 12" more than dwellers 2nd level. Against S4 (or stronger units) transmutation gives same effect as dwellers at cheaper cost AND adds stupidity test to all foes around the unit. This is just massive advantage against big armies like orcs with tons of units nearby or empire with many warmachines nearby.

So imo pick metal. Life isnt cheesy, its overrated and people are mesmerized by throne and its toughness buff spells. Just compare its buffs with other lores with and open mind and you'll find out that other lores usually have better buffs and most definately better destrucion spells.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
01-11-2010, 09:28
Shadow is great and versatile. You've got access to Light, which has a great range of augment spells, combine that with Shadows great range of hexes, and you should be able to overwhelm most units with a good magic phase.

And then you could paint little Yin-Yang symbols on all your banners :D

freddieyu
01-11-2010, 12:16
While the OP mentioned wizards lords, I personally just run a level 2 in my empire army. As such, I like the lore of metal since the spells have a lower casting cost. Shadow is suited for wizard lords due to the high casting costs of the spells, while with the lore of life you need more spells for them to interact well, which is why it is a great lore for wizards which are loremasters, which unfortunately a level 2 empire wizard isn't.

The lore of metal spells are also cool and useful, as well as fluffy, as the head of Colleges of Magic is Balthasar Gelt, the alchemist supreme...

Flinch
01-11-2010, 12:27
I had a Herald of Tzeentch with the lore of life... he kept raising daemons back.. it was awesome..

The other herald had lore of death... and he died early...

So choose life... ;)

redarmy27
01-11-2010, 22:02
I'm one for shadow because of the wicked augments and such. I love them!


Jake

Lord_Elric
01-11-2010, 23:30
I'm one for shadow because of the wicked augments and such. I love them!


Jake

theres only one augment in Shadow???

dreamforge
02-11-2010, 06:21
metal is way too situational (especially in a tournament) and i would take shadow/life over metal anyday

LAV-Kitsune-
02-11-2010, 10:54
metal is way too situational (especially in a tournament) and i would take shadow/life over metal anyday
And how is metal lore situational for empire? It can give +2 armor save to one unit or all units nearby. Greatswords with 2+ save arent really that situational. Enchanted blades is great on crossbow units to give more accuracy and armor piercing to push through 5+ armors that are very common. It also helps all troops to fight ethereal creatures. Signature spell is one of the best ways to deal big monsters with armor save 4 or higher and its mass destruction spell is cheaper, has better range and added effect compared to dwellers and works with same effect against S4 units. And transmutation of the lead can nerf opponents shooters, and bring his ws4 elites to same level as empire troops while reducing their armor at the same time. How is all that situational, I ask.

Rake
02-11-2010, 12:40
I consider Shadow to be the most powerful lore out there. It has FANTASTIC redundancy (4 spells to help you win combat, 3 spells to destroy large scary things and a signature spell that complements ALL of the above) while providing a counter for almost all other lores. higher save (either ward or armour) sure... take 50% more wounds cause of lower toughness. Higher toughness? Lower their toughness by -d3 OR increase your strength to 10. It also compliments well with your shooting. -d3 movement can mean 1 more round of shooting vs his key unit and -d3 toughness DOUBLES the number of wounds you cause if you get a 3+ on the roll. Stick to shadow it will not dissapoint.

Lord_Elric
02-11-2010, 13:06
I consider Shadow to be the most powerful lore out there. It has FANTASTIC redundancy (4 spells to help you win combat, 3 spells to destroy large scary things and a signature spell that complements ALL of the above) while providing a counter for almost all other lores. higher save (either ward or armour) sure... take 50% more wounds cause of lower toughness. Higher toughness? Lower their toughness by -d3 OR increase your strength to 10. It also compliments well with your shooting. -d3 movement can mean 1 more round of shooting vs his key unit and -d3 toughness DOUBLES the number of wounds you cause if you get a 3+ on the roll. Stick to shadow it will not dissapoint.

Plus the lore itself lowers the risk to your mage considerably for example if you end up close range to a unit and expecting them to charge you next turn counter charge yourself with the mage then so long as youve planned well you can swap out for a mode combat oriented character this works great with assassin in my experience and mounting a dread lord on D peg along with sorceress on dark peg makes them very interchangeable.

Jericho
02-11-2010, 21:12
I think Metal has a lot of potential, and like you say some timely buffs like +2 armor save on a unit of Greatswords can really make a difference at times. But as with the 7th edition lore, I still think it's a bit dicey in a competitive environment to take Metal. Shadow is great in all situations, compared to Metal which can be very hit or miss depending on opponent and spells rolled. If you had Loremaster or similar abilities to pick spells then maybe ... but I'd probably just be boring and stick with Shadow, Life and Light for all-comers lists. Death is fun if you don't mind being close range and/or suicidal, but not necessarily the best with a balanced army like Empire.

DivineVisitor
03-11-2010, 00:15
I've only used Life so far but in my next games il try out Light, Shadow and Metal, see which suits my army and style better. Fortunately being Empire we get the choice :D

DivineVisitor
04-11-2010, 04:10
About Final Transmutation.

If you cast 'Hammer of Sigmar' on the Wizard, would he be able to re-roll the failed to wound rolls like he can on other direct damage spells making it a 5+ to kill with a re-roll? If so i may need to give that a go in my next game :D

LAV-Kitsune-
04-11-2010, 08:00
It is not to wound roll, but just a 5+ roll to instant kill them. You don't compare their toughness or your strenght, you just slay them with final transmutation.

DivineVisitor
04-11-2010, 10:52
It is not to wound roll, but just a 5+ roll to instant kill them. You don't compare their toughness or your strenght, you just slay them with final transmutation.

Pity :D