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Torpedo Vegas
30-10-2010, 19:30
Is it legal to take units from two separate armies and field them in the same army. For instance, can I take a High Elf Bolt Thrower in my Empire army as an allied unit, or are the rules for allied armies specifically for two or more players, like a 2v2?

Novrain
30-10-2010, 20:25
They are aimed for 2 people per side, but there is no reason why, with your opponents permission, you could use them as a single player.

Tbh due to the composition rules you are often gimping yourself rather than min-maxing for Cheese. (Admittedly there are some crazy possibilities but most are less effective than those points being spent within the same army).

Ally away!

Snake1311
30-10-2010, 20:30
Its intended for 2v2s etc, and even then each army follows the army composition rules as if it is a stand-alone army. If you think about it, if you did it the other way round, everyone would take the best aspect of each army and would field pretty much the same thing

Charistoph
30-10-2010, 23:54
Its intended for 2v2s etc, and even then each army follows the army composition rules as if it is a stand-alone army. If you think about it, if you did it the other way round, everyone would take the best aspect of each army and would field pretty much the same thing

Truth.

Could you imagine Scaven Slaves supported by Minotaurs and Hydras? Or Empire Cannon supporting the advance of Stegadons?

eyescrossed
31-10-2010, 00:24
Heh. Slann and an unkillable Dreadlord, various things for Heroes, Slaves for Core supported by Hydras, HPAs and Minotaurs.

Torpedo Vegas
31-10-2010, 01:31
A Dwarf army with a Arch Lector on War Altar? +2 to dispel dice and giving Dorf Ironbreakers speed of light? WS 10 I10 Dwarfs. Good God.

LevDaddy
31-10-2010, 16:16
Don't forget about this article from GW. It might shed some light on the subject. Although the rules aren't crystal clear, it alludes to being able to just use other army's units as you wish, as a single player, using the BRB allied rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600003a

Mr_Foulscumm
31-10-2010, 16:39
Dear god.

That is horrible.

Using the allied rules outside of a closed group of friends sounds like a terrible, game breaking thing to do... and I for one would probably never play a pick up game against anyone who did it.

That being said. For a one of game or even a campaign with friends, why the hell not? Could be fun as long as everyone is aware of how badly it could break the game.

The potential for abuse is just... well... Leave those allied armies at home please.

SamVimes
31-10-2010, 17:49
I think it depends man. I mean, you can easily take a peek at the guys list before deciding to play him and tell whether he's doing it to be gamey or because he has a legitimate intention behind it (the most obvious is to do a combined chaos army from the days of yore). I think a blanket no-way for a pick-up game is a bit harsh.

Clanrat
31-10-2010, 18:10
personally, im not sure about this "individual units approach", just seems open to abuse. However, i certainly wouldnt put a carpet ban on allies.

My personal method would be just to say take 2 seperate 1000 pt armies for example (or say a 1500 and 500) make sure they abide by army selection rules, then just decide which character is in overall comand. Id probably use the allies chart and effects (but thats because im a skaven player, and frankly, even models in my own army need to be wary about being backstabbed :)

Jind_Singh
31-10-2010, 18:17
Like with anything in our hobby it's all about how you do it - if an Empire player turned up with 500 points of Dwarf allies, he had a hero, a core unit, maybe a special - to represent the local Dwarves turning up to help out their neighbors - big deal!
But if the 'allies' were a Rune Priest with anvil....or just lots of warmachines? How does that make sense?
Empire would readily send out, say, Militia or State Troops but would they send their one and only War Alter or Steam Tanks - or artillery pieces? Not really!
If I wanted to bring allies to a 'drop-in' game I'd make sure that the allies were pretty much core troop choices with a small hero to lead them - it make sense that way - and of course ask your opponent if they mind. I wouldn't so long as it was tastefully done!

Novrain
31-10-2010, 18:34
I run two fair size armies, Dwarves and Empire, and have a wonderful vision of the massed ranks of both of them allied in battle.

Stuff like the allies rules is I think better for the more scenario or campaign driven games, where fluff and narrative matter more than the win.


What could be better than renacting some of the titanic battle of the Old World?

Wakerofgods
31-10-2010, 21:29
I am now slightly confused. Am I allowed to take a 1000 point army of empire with 500 points of dwarves?

On the other hand, does it even matter? Maybe I should just ask my mates...

...

Was just about to press enter but then I realized that to me, yes it does matter. I might 'just do it anyway' with my mates - but I do also want to know if it is 'legal'.

LevDaddy
31-10-2010, 22:49
On the other hand, does it even matter? Maybe I should just ask my mates...

...

Was just about to press enter but then I realized that to me, yes it does matter. I might 'just do it anyway' with my mates - but I do also want to know if it is 'legal'.

At this point, I feel it's totally unclear. Maybe it is intentional to not have hard rules one way or the other. I think asking your mates is the best bet.

Torpedo Vegas
31-10-2010, 22:52
We need FAQs!

LevDaddy
31-10-2010, 23:00
To me, personally, and I know this will be debated till kingdom come, it seems ridiculous to ask 500 pts worth of allies in a 3000 pt army in a single player game to abide by all the army composition rules in and of itself (ie, of the 500 you have to have 3 units, 25% core, only 25% lords or heroes etc). I'd love it if the allied rules in the BRB were simply meant to operate with an allied army whose composition was legel in it's entirety. The more the merrier, sounds like fun to me.

Aside from that, however, if you think your army is questionable, just ask your opponent. I'm sure there are majorly abusive lists possible out there under loose allied rules, but so is having 4 Hyrdas, etc.

astornfleshlay
01-11-2010, 04:38
I understood it as "you can take whatever the hell you want"

That being said, I (personally) wouldn't be cheesy about it. I currently take a small unit of Bloodletters in my WoC army just because I really like the models. I don't see anything wrong with it (especially considering how Chaos used to work).

Of course, I don't really agree with how my buddy abuses it by putting a Steam-Tank in his VC army (can you smell the cheese?), but we just play friendly games anyhow (though, again, he loves his cheese). Meh, that's what Purple Sun is for ;)

LordZombie
01-11-2010, 05:58
After seeing another thread on here about allies and the blog on the GW site, I presented some rules to my gaming group. So far, they have worked pretty well. This is what we use:
1. Only one army as an ally.
2. Up to 25% of the total points may be spent on allies.
3. No more units of allies than you have of core from the base army.
4. Allies characters may be taken, but you must take more points in core units from the allied army also.
5. No special characters.
6. No rare units.
7. Allies must be Trusted or Suspicious allies.

LevDaddy
01-11-2010, 22:35
@LordZ - I like that, very cool!

Can you share some lists? I'd love to know how that worked out.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
02-11-2010, 09:27
I think the lack of clarity provided by GW is aggravating, especially because the book promotes one concept (team games), and the blog promotes another (mish mash as you please).

However, the blog also says other random things which are patently false, like 2 ranks of Bretonnian knights on the flank will negate an enemy's steadfast bonus.

It's enough to make me wish someone *else* at GW would learn how to use a computer properly and finally put the blog staff on a leash.

My recommendation is to discuss it with your opponent well in advance.

Personally, it bugs the hell out of me when I show up to a 3,000 point game v. Skaven with 1 cherry-picked, uber kitted out Beastman in it, just like in 40k when I agree to play an Apocalypse game against "orks" only to find it's actually going to be a few mobs of boyz with an entire 'Looted Imperial Gunline (no conversion work, of course) plus Baneblade.'

The ally rules are written on the face of it to create great thematic battles. In reality, they are (too often) a tool power gamers use to WAAC.

meltaskelta
02-11-2010, 10:53
Don't forget about this article from GW. It might shed some light on the subject. Although the rules aren't crystal clear, it alludes to being able to just use other army's units as you wish, as a single player, using the BRB allied rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=12600003a
I really don't think the above article gives us license to throw in other armies' units as we wish.

I see that the bottom photo doesn't include Skaven core, but Adam does talk about including Clanrats. (There's obviously more to his army than the photo, because the only core is a unit of 10 Chaos Warriors.)

When I first read the Allied Armies chapter in the 8th edition rulebook, I had just presumed that each army in the alliance had to be an internally legal army. (Eg, if 2000 points of Warriors of Chaos ally with 1000 points of Skaven, then you need 500+ points of WoC core and 250+ points of Skaven core.)

Now I've re-read it, and I can't see an explicit, concise ruling on that point. However, the language used in the chapter seems to be based on armies joining to form an alliance, rather than foreign units joining each other to form an army.

I, for one, wouldn't dream of playing in a game where the members of an alliance weren't legal armies in and of themselves. Would anyone else?

LevDaddy
02-11-2010, 17:41
...I, for one, wouldn't dream of playing in a game where the members of an alliance weren't legal armies in and of themselves. Would anyone else?

As I stated before, I think it would be awesome to do just that. I'm all for it in a friendly game when it is agreed upon as to how the composition will work. If it's for WAAC powergaming purposes, then no, but that goes without saying for any setup that isn't meant to be in good spirit.

I'm working on a VC/Beastmen tag team as we speak using the "Overall Legal Army Composition" guidelines, and the Allied Rules in the BRB. About 1,700 VC, 800 Beastmen. 1 General, 1 BSB and pre-phase allocating of Power Dice will be a challenge, but LD10 Primal Fury and decent Core will be quite a boon.

astornfleshlay
02-11-2010, 18:18
Again, I see nothing wrong with mixing a few units...
as long as it's not a WAAC effort, in which case it would be easy enough to say "No, I'm not playing that army...because it's CHEESE!"

meltaskelta
02-11-2010, 22:15
...when it is agreed upon as to how the composition will work...
I think you won me over with that condition.

iron chef
28-11-2013, 01:24
I love this rule set
I run a group of gobbo wolf riders and a gobbo warboss on wolf with my ogres

-Totenkopf-
28-11-2013, 02:26
I really don't think the above article gives us license to throw in other armies' units as we wish.

I see that the bottom photo doesn't include Skaven core, but Adam does talk about including Clanrats. (There's obviously more to his army than the photo, because the only core is a unit of 10 Chaos Warriors.)

When I first read the Allied Armies chapter in the 8th edition rulebook, I had just presumed that each army in the alliance had to be an internally legal army. (Eg, if 2000 points of Warriors of Chaos ally with 1000 points of Skaven, then you need 500+ points of WoC core and 250+ points of Skaven core.)

Now I've re-read it, and I can't see an explicit, concise ruling on that point. However, the language used in the chapter seems to be based on armies joining to form an alliance, rather than foreign units joining each other to form an army.

I, for one, wouldn't dream of playing in a game where the members of an alliance weren't legal armies in and of themselves. Would anyone else?


This is exactly how the Allies mechanic worked back in 5th Edition. I see no problem with it. Especially in friendly/narrative games

WarzonePlayer
28-11-2013, 06:02
Back when I was interested in fantasy I wanted to do an empire-high elf-dwarf alliance army being lead by Valten, it is fluffy after all.

Kalandros
28-11-2013, 13:32
We had a tournament where everyone had 2k lists and 500 pts allied with 2 changes: 50% heroes, no lords. So the allied 500 pts had to respect everything else - 25% core, 3 units minimum, etc.
Worked out pretty well. My Throgg + Chaos trolls wasn't as awesome as I had hoped sadly haha. You think it'd be broken to bring Throgg into another army but its like saying "RAM YOUR FLAMING BANNER HERE".

Tournament was fun but outside of special events, would NOT play it regularly so.

Azaireal
28-11-2013, 14:34
You could always do something like Dogs of War and have all allied points deducted from your rare percentage.
Allies would not be able to benefit from your General's leadership, BSB or passive character traits (political differences).

*edit* Must be from a different Army Book.
No Allied/Mercenary characters.

Characters cannot join Allies/Mercenary units, but allow all other interactions (4+ LOS, etc)

Always room for narrative/campaign exceptions.